I have a Hungarian SA85M(ak-47) and it is flawless in 5,000 rounds. My Rock River Ar-15 is also Flawless in 2,000 rounds. Both are top quality firearms.

Quoted: Looks awful friggin Bulgarian to me:

They most likely are. At least the furniture is.

Most of the problems I have seen over here and in Afganistan were ammo related. The best ammo I have yet to find are Czech, Russian, Romanian, Chinese and Bulgarian-not necessarily in that order. Most of the other stuff is junk for the most part. Some AK's are bad-I remember we had to condemn over 1000 new AK's in Afganistan because they were Junk-civilian model chinese underfolders (Norinco) that had been converted into military rifles for the ANA.
Over here in Iraq I have seen a hodge podge of Ak's. E-German, Russian, Romanian, Chinese, Hungarian, Bulgarian, Yugoslav, and a few Tabuks' in the hands of various military/paramilitary forces. It all depends on what area you are in and from what academieies the soldiers graduate from and what they recieved to give the soldiers.
Combat Diver next time I am up your way I'd like to see one or two of those Ak's and the ammo if that is cool...Kinda curious

The Iraqi AK's I saw were usually ragged out and not maintained.  I did find a bunch of very nice MPiKM's made the mid-1980's that looked new.  The MEK (Iranian dissidents) all had really worn looking AK's, but they were all very serviceable and well maintained.  M-16's versus AK's is kind of apples and oranges.  Both are pretty good in their current versions, but issudes can come up.  The only non ammo or magazine issues I have seen with M-16's or M-4's was from some worn out buffer springs during a live fire exercise.[

KMFDM,

 IM sent.  Your invited.  

CD

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The 'record' I believe is around 6,000 rounds thru an A2 AR without a jam or a cleaning... Are you sure? +1 I very seriously doubt it Yeah, I'm feeling the same way. I'm sorry, but 6K rounds of non-continuous fire would be an amazing feat for any firearm... AR or AK... It just seems, well, a bit out there... You know, like the stories fishermen tell, "It was 542lbs and 30 feet long!" I know the new M60E4 sustained a continuous non-stop 102,000 torture test... But that was CONTINUOUS. If you let a rifle sit without cleaning, it will foul. Carbon build-up will make ANY rifle fail. I believe CampyBob & the various other posters who have had their guns get to the 5,000-6,000 round range without cleaning... The fact is that AR-system-unreliability is a myth from the early days of Vietnam...

I've personally put over 3,000 rounds through a Colt upper/PWA lower AR without cleaning and with only minor lubrication.  All with surplus M193 ball.  I got sick of the test and just cleaned it because I was bored one day.  

And this was over the course of months, not hours.  

Quoted: Iraqi AKs are some of the worst I've ever seen. Weld pools, even incorrect riveting, cock-eyed levelling on rails... It's a wonder some even function.

Have you been to Iraq?  If so, were you in a position that you had access to local weapons, or did you just get to finger fuck the one hanging on the wall in your CP?

Pinch welds don't pool.  Iraqi AK's are either made in Yugoslavia, or assembled in Iraq on Yugo tooling, and is the ONLY thing that I saw in that country that might be worth a fuck.  They were somewhat rare where I was, compared to the East German, Romanian and Chinese guns, but we still ran into a few.  FEW.  Lots of other AKs.  

Not to mention, their magazines are probably as old as hell... Get a horrible gun using weak magazines and you should expect it to jam.

Old doesn't mean dick.  AK's are super reliable, like it or not, given some decent ammo.  Iraqis for the most part were not given decent ammo.

Quoted: I'm one of the few that think both the AR-15/M-16 and AK series of weapons each have their places.  I abuse the shit out of my AK and it has never given me a problem.

+1

Quoted: Looks awful friggin Bulgarian to me: cache.gettyimages.com/comp/51374136.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=27183890BFF566AB871649157D368A4AA9C30E9B9B114CE8

Waffles!

Have you been to Iraq?  If so, were you in a position that you had access to local weapons, or did you just get to finger fuck the one hanging on the wall in your CP?


...You haven't been to the AK Discussion forum, have you?

There's about 20 threads on Iraqi-made AKs. They're about the worst I've ever seen.


Old doesn't mean dick.  AK's are super reliable, like it or not, given some decent ammo.  Iraqis for the most part were not given decent ammo.


It does mean dick. Old there means "unmaintained." AKs fail, they get FTE and FTF. I've had my SAR-1 jam 12 times in a 30rder because the damn spring was just too worn out.

So, yes, they do mean dick.

Quoted: Quoted: Looks awful friggin Bulgarian to me: cache.gettyimages.com/comp/51374136.jpg?x=x&dasite=MS_GINS&ef=2&ev=1&dareq=27183890BFF566AB871649157D368A4AA9C30E9B9B114CE8 Waffles!

And milled receiver

and furniture...

I'll bet money that those AK's you are having problems with are not Russian AKs made in the Izhmash Armory, the Kalashnikov Factory in Izhevsk, Russia. They make some of the finest AK's in the world. You want good weapons, go to the original. They make excellent ones.

The Warsaw pact satellite nations' manufacture quality has always been inferior to Russian made Kalashnikov variants, though some are better than others, even quite good. If you want to see what Izhmash output looks like, go look at a Saiga semi-auto. They are made at Izhmash. Not refined by western standards, but much better than their Romanian copies for example, and function is excellent.

Too bad they had to be modified to take 10 round magazines and hunting stocks to be imported with the original Russian made receivers.

It would seem we are equipping our new Iraqi friends with inferior weaponry (perhaps by design? or maybe just on the cheap.)



IBTL. this belongs on the AK board.


edited to strike previous comment

No, it doesn't belong on the AK board.  Reread my 1st post, it was to support the AR and not the AK.  Alot of people are defending the AK which normally are realible weapons.  I got a bunch of cheap ones that defend my camp and some loosey ammo to function with them.  

CD

Quoted: No, it doesn't belong on the AK board.  Reread my 1st post, it was to support the AR and not the AK.  Alot of people are defending the AK which normally are realible weapons.  I got a bunch of cheap ones that defend my camp and some loosey ammo to function with them.   CD

My bad. didn't mean to play moderator.  Appreciate the update!

AR > AK

I've had a Maadi for about 10 years. I could not even begin to guess how many rounds i have had through it. The accuracy is amazing, amazingly bad that is. I can shoot with my eyes closed and not do worse than when trying my best to hit the target. No feeding problems ever, maybe 3-4 thousand rounds through it. I think it was less than $200 new.

Quoted: ...You haven't been to the AK Discussion forum, have you?

Yes, I have.  You haven't moved out of momma's house yet, have you?  Unlike yourself, I get my information from actually going to strange countries, and shooting their AK's.  You?

From your bio:

Resident of Myrtle Beach, SC. Only 18, still, so no handguns (that I legally own). Love firearms, have had a fascination with them since I was 10 or so. Currently only own a SAR-1, Marlin Md. 60, and borrowing a 12-gauge Single from a friend on long term basis. Yes, being a student sucks, having to fit in ammo purchases and looking at M1 Garands that cost more than I can sell myself to women (read: .25 cents)

Yes, being a student sucks.  But being dumbass after paying for all that education sucks more.

Hey, quite a resume you've got there...and experience with 3 different guns; and you own two of them!  What, no airsoft?  Do you know jonesy?

There's about 20 threads on Iraqi-made AKs. They're about the worst I've ever seen.

You've never seen one.  Maybe you saw the pictures that I took?

As soon as my ISP has my picture hosting back up, I will post pictures, that I took, in Iraq,  for you to point out the 'pools of weld' and other indicators of poor quality.  Then, with your vast experience and knowledge, you can explain to me the differences between Yugoslav AKs, and Iraqi AKs.

My work here is done.



Pics to follow.

Quoted: Quoted: My Chi-Com AK has around 3k round thru it WITHOUT a major cleaning.. And it has NEVER jammed...  I spray the inards with WD-40 ever 3K rounds or so and that has been it.. Do that with a AR.. I dare you!!! PS I also love AR-15s... not bashing them... It's been done by several members on this board... The 'record' I believe is around 6,000 rounds thru an A2 AR without a jam or a cleaning...

Supposedly, HK has a G36k with 25,000rds through it, no cleaning, no jams.
If this is true then that's why I'm for the XM8.

Quoted: Quoted: ...You haven't been to the AK Discussion forum, have you? Yes, I have.  You haven't moved out of momma's house yet, have you?  Unlike yourself, I get my information from actually going to strange countries, and shooting their AK's.  You? From your bio: Resident of Myrtle Beach, SC. Only 18, still, so no handguns (that I legally own). Love firearms, have had a fascination with them since I was 10 or so. Currently only own a SAR-1, Marlin Md. 60, and borrowing a 12-gauge Single from a friend on long term basis. Yes, being a student sucks, having to fit in ammo purchases and looking at M1 Garands that cost more than I can sell myself to women (read: .25 cents) Yes, being a student sucks.  But being dumbass after paying for all that education sucks more. Hey, quite a resume you've got there...and experience with 3 different guns; and you own two of them!  What, no airsoft?  Do you know jonesy? There's about 20 threads on Iraqi-made AKs. They're about the worst I've ever seen. You've never seen one.  Maybe you saw the pictures that I took? As soon as my ISP has my picture hosting back up, I will post pictures, that I took, in Iraq,  for you to point out the 'pools of weld' and other indicators of poor quality.  Then, with your vast experience and knowledge, you can explain to me the differences between Yugoslav AKs, and Iraqi AKs. My work here is done. Pics to follow.

<golf clap for eodinert>

Here is a Tabuk that I ran into in Iraq, next to the M4 that I carried in Iraq.  Notice that nowhere in this picture will you find my mom's house, a high school, or Marlin products.

Sturm, you just got your ass handed to you.  

I think this might  BE "Ole Jonesy".

I'll throw my $.02 in on this thread.

I have or have had many different examples of AR15's and M16's and semi AK's and full auto ones over the years, and have fired many types of ammo.  I love AK's and AR15/M16's with equal passion.

I have seen both AR15/M16's malfunction, for many different reasons.  In general, both are extremely reliable when proper spec parts are used, including magazines, and of course, good ammo.

The most common malfunction in all of these were from the M16 carbines, that being the failure to extract an empty with a fresh round trying to feed.  Usually a heavier buffer and/or stronger extractor spring cures that, but now and then, it seems some shorty barrels have "voodoo" and nothing will make them right.  Some work for thousands of rounds, then, you get recurrent failure-to-extract jams.

I have had AK's which would inexplicably fail to eject cases.  I have had the bullets catch on the bottom of the trunion, requiring judicious Dremel-ing of that area, which cured that problem.  I have dropped AKM parts into AKM's that did not fit and had to be hand-fitted.  I had never experienced that with AR15/M16's.

I know a guy who had met Eugene Stoner when he was with Reed Knight, and when they were talking about the need to clean the M16, Stoner told him to not clean or oil his M16 and see how long it would work before it needed cleaning.  I know that my friend got to several thousand rounds at least before he couldn't stand it anymore, and cleaned it.  It never jammed.  It was a rifle (not carbine) by the way.

M16's work, and so do AK's.  AK's are probably easier to strip and clean than M16's, but I think most people would be surprised how little cleaning M16's really "need."  I think most people over-oil their guns, which only serves to attract gunk.  There are definitely several more very small parts in an M16 compared to an AK, but whether this has any real significance is up for debate.

For what it's worth,

Ted in Tallahassee

Whoops--in post above, I meant to say, "I have seen both AR15's/M16's AND AK'S jam . . ."

Ted

eodinert, what's with all the attitude?  Just because Sturmwehr isn't in the military, he can't post or disagree with you?  Chill out...

Quoted: Quoted: ...You haven't been to the AK Discussion forum, have you? Yes, I have.  You haven't moved out of momma's house yet, have you?  Unlike yourself, I get my information from actually going to strange countries, and shooting their AK's.  You? From your bio: Resident of Myrtle Beach, SC. Only 18, still, so no handguns (that I legally own). Love firearms, have had a fascination with them since I was 10 or so. Currently only own a SAR-1, Marlin Md. 60, and borrowing a 12-gauge Single from a friend on long term basis. Yes, being a student sucks, having to fit in ammo purchases and looking at M1 Garands that cost more than I can sell myself to women (read: .25 cents) Yes, being a student sucks.  But being dumbass after paying for all that education sucks more. Hey, quite a resume you've got there...and experience with 3 different guns; and you own two of them!  What, no airsoft?  Do you know jonesy? There's about 20 threads on Iraqi-made AKs. They're about the worst I've ever seen. You've never seen one.  Maybe you saw the pictures that I took? As soon as my ISP has my picture hosting back up, I will post pictures, that I took, in Iraq,  for you to point out the 'pools of weld' and other indicators of poor quality.  Then, with your vast experience and knowledge, you can explain to me the differences between Yugoslav AKs, and Iraqi AKs. My work here is done. Pics to follow.

my sar1 has never jammed
neither has my bushmaster xm15

Quoted: eodinert, what's with all the attitude?  Just because Sturmwehr isn't in the military, he can't post or disagree with you?  Chill out...

It wasn't like he attacked him for no reason. If someone's actually been to foreign countries and shot their AK's, it's probably a little irritating to have some kid who has only seen pictures and reads posts on this site try to school that person on AK's.

I don't think EOD has an attitude.  He simply put the kid in his place.  
There are alot of real deal shooters on this site who have BTDT and are fully qualified to make statements about the quality of weapons that they have run across during their travels downrange.  A High School student would be wise to come here and ask questions to gain knowledge, but keep his trap shut when it comes to matters such as experience.

JMO

I don't think EOD has an attitude. He simply put the kid in his place.
There are alot real deal shooters on this site who have BTDT and are fully qualified to make statements about the quality of weapons that they have run across during their travels downrange. A High School student would be wise to come here and ask questions to gain knowledge, but keep his trap shut when it comes to matters such as experience when he has none.

I agree 100%

I probably over reacted.  It does not make me a better person to beat him down like that.  It is somewhat out of character for me to do so.

It's one thing to have a differing opinion, and some folks aren't so objective sometimes.  That's fine.  When he said "Iraqi AKs are some of the worst I've ever seen. Weld pools, even incorrect riveting, cock-eyed levelling on rails... It's a wonder some even function."  It was pretty clear he'd never actually seen an Iraqi AK, or even good pictures.  I don't think he's actually even seen a thread about Iraqi AKs, because all of them I've seen equate them with Yugo guns, which nobody has anything bad to say about.  I would say, among AK's, the Yugo variations are up real close to the top of the heap in quality... and except for the writing on the side, the Iraqi units are the same, at least in my experience.  Oh, I did look for '20 threads' about Yugo AK's on the arfcom AK board.  There were two, and neither one of them was about poor quality (could only search back 30 days, though).  He must have meant the OTHER AK board.

Then, he goes to schooling someone else, with this gem:

>It is ROMANIAN same factory your rifles Iraqi rifles are from Major news flash: Romanian rifles are made in *GASP!* ROMANIA. >that is why SAR's are not imported anymore that factory got the contract for Iraq. Wrong

Now, I happen to know that the ICDC is armed with an assload of Romanian rifles, which are *gasp*, made in Romania,  so this might be an easy mistake to make (I had to laugh when I saw that crappy SAR-1 wood stock and non-threaded muzzle in the hands of an Iraqi soldier).  What I don't know anything about the contractual obligations of Romanian AK makers; but I would say that Sturmwehr elevated things to a higher level with his short, condescending remarks.  Neither he, nor anyone else should be surprised to see a response of a similar nature.

I own more than a few AK's, in fact, more AK's than AR's.  Doesn't make me an expert, just means I have a job.  And not that it's relevant to our topic, but I could've carried an AK over there if I wanted and I didn't, I carried that snappy M4 in the picture I posted earlier.  But I have lurked here for many years, even earlier than my 'member since' line, both here and at the AK boards at arfcom and the AK boards managed by the cockholster.  Oh yeah, and the one at the FAL board too.  All that, I've travelled a bit, and observed these things in their native habitats, shot 'em, shot rifle grenades off 'em, all that stuff.  I've even built a few AK's, I have a krink kit and a 5.45 kit that I will be hammering together later this week (hopefully).  I think I just dig AKs because I grew up in the cold war, went to Germany as an infantryman while the wall was still up, and feared the evil empire like everyone else.  The image of an AK captures the feeling of that time like nothing else.  

While I will certainly bow to the experts here that know a lot more than me, and there are quite a few, I also know when somebody is talking out their ass.  This kid was talking out his ass, and it pissed me off.

And as to the topic of AK vs AR, I'll say this:
AK's are probably the most reliable modern military guns in history.  They are crude, a little heavy sometimes.  The magazines are big, heavy and don't carry well.  They don't stack good in a pouch.  They work better than exlax, and are probably the most historically significant gun in the world.  I've never found one particular countries gun to be more reliable than another, some just look nicer.  Even the really ugly ones work.  Good.  Some seem to be more accurate than others.  

All that happy stuff aside, if people are shooting back, I'll take an M16, thank you.  I could make do with an AK, but would prefer not to.

I feel better now.
~Doug

I probably over reacted.

Didn't seem like it.

Quoted: My Chi-Com AK has around 3k round thru it WITHOUT a major cleaning.. And it has NEVER jammed... I spray the inards with WD-40 ever 3K rounds or so and that has been it.. Do that with a AR.. I dare you!!!

Sounds like this guy has, this is from another thread that  questions the validity of HK's imporved claims over the current M4.  But it might serve as an example here.

I have seen M4's that have gone at least 5,000 rounds between cleanings that ran without fault or failure of any sort through a 3,000 round course without any cleaning and an occasional squirt of miltech. (Bringing the round total to 8,000)

Source:
www.tacticalforums.com/
Under Military Forums / The Navy Fourm / HK M4 Topic