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Posted: 11/18/2003 6:16:48 PM EDT


The “SWAT Roundup” in Orlando Florida is a “must visit” every year.  Law Enforcement, Government and Military SWAT type teams from around the World come every November to compete against each other in good-natured, yet job oriented competitions.  

Beyond the opportunity to best like minded groups and take home a trophy (and bragging rights), the SWAT Roundup offers teams a chance to Network, compare tactics and experiences, the Roundup also offers folks the chance to take classes that they would not ordinarily see offered in the area or country and the Vender display offers them a chance to see the cutting edge of tools and equipment . . . a veritable “Tactical Mall” offering everything from gloves to clothing to weapons to training devices to shields, to lights to trauma kits to . . . you name it.  If it’s Black, got Velcro and bears the term “Tactical”, it available at Roundup.

While checking all the various equipment I happened on a familiar face at the ITT booth.  After the usual “How you been” talk, I asked where he was working.  “Lewis Machine and Tool” came the answer.

Now to interrupt . . . Lewis Machine and Tool (LMT for short) is a company that I had been hearing a lot of talk about, but was never able to really pin down.  They did a complete overhaul of the AR15/M1 Bolt/Bolt Carrier system that is pretty amazing (pictures available at www.militarymorans.com).  Word has it that they are an innovative company that isn’t afraid to ask “Why?”  They seem to be driven to “build the better mouse trap.”

“’LMT!?’ I’ve been trying to find you guys for like six months!!” I say with a grin :D

They were there showing a new AR15/M16 upper system called the “MRP” (Modular Rail Platform) that is really pretty friggin’ cool.  It’s really a “2 for 1” system.

Now, Rail Systems are all the rage and rightfully so.  They offer end users platforms for the mount mission essentials like slings, lights, lasers, sights/scopes, night vision and the like.  Having used a Knight RIS for a good many years, I’m hooked.  However, they are not without their . . . issues.

The rail may or may not sit exactly level, Hell, it may or may not even fit correctly.  Heat shields can break rivets (mine rattles a tad).  If you have more then one upper set up, you have to buy extra sling adaptors, extra lights (extra batteries), extra sights/mounts, forward pistol grips ect, ect.

The ARMS SIR has potential.  The whole system is fairly simple to switch over from gun to gun and the top rail is continuous from Stem to Stern.  But for every barrel, you have to buy an upper.

Lewis Machine and Tool has developed a .223 Upper that includes an integral (one piece) rail system.  Like many other systems out there, they use standard picatinny rails at 3, 6 and 9, as well as a continuous rail, front to back at 12.



As the MRP rail is integral to the upper, the barrel is naturally free floating.  One slick looking set up you can see in the pictures is to put a 16-inch barrel into the full (Rifle) length rail.  The barrels “shaved” gas block slides right into the rail, leaving only a small section of the barrel peaking out from the end of the rail.  This gives you plenty of real estate for accessories, while protecting the barrel.

Now, an integral, free floating rail system is slick enough, but the “2 for 1“ part is that the barrels are interchangeable . . . in about two minutes!!  

You can go from say a 10 inch CQB/Entry barrel to a 14 or 16 or 18 inch barrel simply by locking the bolt to the rear, removing two bolts with a simple Ratchet or “T handle”, sliding the barrel and gas tube assembly out, sliding in the desired barrel and retightening the two screws.

The barrels headspace on the barrel screws, so there is no need to check the headspace when you change barrels.



In talking to the factory folks, they gave an example of having a point of impact shift of only 5/8 of an inch when going from a 10 to a 16 inch barrel.

Your Sling, Light, Optics, NV, IR Lasers and any number of other accessories remain the same.

Currently they are offering two different rail lengths, M16A2 length and a Carbine “CQB” length.  The barrels are also offered in Stainless or the traditional Military style Black Phosphate/Chrome lined.  Lengths offered are 10.5, 14.5, 16 and 18 inches (16 and 18 inches in Stainless and 10.5, 14.5 and 16.1 in Chrome lined). Flip up iron sights are also available as backups.



While the LE/Military markets are obviously the main focus, I did bring up the “Post Ban” issue for customers that have these restrictions.  I was told that as LMT makes their barrels in house, that is not an issue and Flash suppressor-less barrels could be made available on customer’s requests . . . it’s just one less step they have to make.

Many of us have uppers in various lengths, if not whole rifles that have been acquired over the years.  Considerable money invested when you figure a quality barreled upper (without bolt/bolt carrier) goes for $400ish (plus in most cases). Quality rails go $300-$400.  Lights another $200 - $500.  Optics $300 - $1000.  Then add slings, stocks and all the other pieces parts.

A barreled upper from LMT is $1489 for an upper with a Stainless barrel, $1289 for a Chrome lined.  While this sounds like a chunk, consider that you only have to buy one upper, one light, one sling, one sight, ect.  New barrels in your choice of length are comparable to a plain barrel from other quality manufacturers.  PLUS, you don’t have to have a shop full of tools like I have to make a simple barrel change.  If I had it to do all over again, I’d have saved a bundle. :D

All in all, this system was the most interesting and innovative product I saw at the Vender show . . . (well . . .  there was that “shoot-around-the-corner” thingy )

As I said before, they are an extremely innovative company that isn’t afraid to make a great thing better.   I expect we’ll be seeing a lot more from these guys in the future. :D

Needless to say, I’ve got zero problem seeing one of these in my near future.
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 6:51:59 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/19/2003 1:14:15 PM EDT by MSTN]
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 6:57:40 PM EDT
Just suck up that free advertising why dont you?
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 7:03:47 PM EDT
And I ordered mine already! [:D]
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 7:15:44 PM EDT
As for the BCG design they are great and were on the board via Wes a long long time ago.  

As for the MRP?  Yes..........and again, we were informed quite some time ago.

Thanks though.....

I'm grinnin' too Raptor[:D]
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 7:26:38 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Horik:
I'm grinnin' too Raptor[:D]
View Quote


[>(] You guys suck [:d]
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 7:46:33 PM EDT
Mr. Hollister, please tell us a little about the flip up sights (front & rear) on that carbine.

Pics maybe?

Thanks.
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 7:51:24 PM EDT
Big time...
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 8:02:11 PM EDT
I was in a bit of a rush when it came time to get pictures . . . shouldn't have brought a noninterested female that was hungry. [:(!]

As to the sights, they were more then adiquate.  I wish I'd have gotten a shot of them in the active position.

I do recall that the front looked "PRI" inspired.

Also, I recieved an email asking for an underside shot . . . that I have:

[img]http://www.pbase.com/image/23439767.jpg[/img]
Link Posted: 11/18/2003 8:21:01 PM EDT
The front sight looks like it's made by Troy Industry, [url]www.troyind.com/news.htm[/url]
[img]www.troyind.com/images/Web%20front_sight4.jpg[/img]
[img]www.troyind.com/images/front_sight2.jpg[/img]
As I said in another thread, it looks to be a combo of the KAC front RAS mountes sight and the PRI flip up sight/gas block, with its hood.
Link Posted: 11/19/2003 9:18:53 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Duffy:
Originally Posted By Horik:
I'm grinnin' too Raptor[:D]
View Quote


[>(] You guys suck [:d]
View Quote


I'm very impulsive, but I have been waiting for this thing to come about for a long time.....and talk to Wes way to much for my own good.......but hey, I love the guy.....like a brother, or father......not in the ancient greek sort of way[:D]

The front and rear sights on the MRP photos at top have to be the TROY sights.  Either that or LMT designed duplicates.
Link Posted: 11/19/2003 9:37:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/19/2003 9:54:12 AM EDT by Master_Blaster]
F/R sights are Troy-designed units. I'd wager they can hang w/ the best of them, & better than most.

Rear sight pic added:

[img]http://troyind.com/images/rear_sight6.jpg[/img]

Looks like it has a single aperture.

********

Are these LMT uppers commercially available, or are they stuck in a prototype/limited production stage? Also, how reliable is the new bbl/bolt/gas tube design over the current/std offering? Is it an improvement?

Need...more...info.
Link Posted: 11/19/2003 10:14:21 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/19/2003 10:30:35 AM EDT
OOOOOOOOOOOOO Mommy!!


Spooge's next purchase!!
Link Posted: 11/19/2003 10:44:15 AM EDT
Question:
Now these chambers are 5.56mm not .223 correct?

"10.5", 14.5" AND 16.1" CHROME LINED W/ SHORT CQB LENGTH RECEIVER/FOREND $1289. AVAILABLE VERY SHORTLY."

And does that price include all three barrels?

or just one of the above.
Link Posted: 11/19/2003 11:02:49 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Spooge5150:
"10.5", 14.5" AND 16.1" CHROME LINED W/ SHORT CQB LENGTH RECEIVER/FOREND $1289. AVAILABLE VERY SHORTLY."

And does that price include all three barrels?

or just one of the above.
View Quote


You and I both wish, brother.  [;)]
Link Posted: 11/19/2003 11:52:59 AM EDT
Two questions:

 1. Is the CQB length receiver mid-length or standard CAR length?

 

 2. Does the MRP have the ability to accept different calibers? a la the 6.8?
Link Posted: 11/19/2003 1:13:02 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/19/2003 1:17:18 PM EDT
KAC panels fit this bad boy I assume?
Link Posted: 11/19/2003 1:28:16 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/19/2003 1:31:00 PM EDT
Guess I pretty much figured out where the tax check is going next spring [:D]
Link Posted: 11/19/2003 3:24:42 PM EDT
.....and look at it as helping the economy to Lumpy!  Any excuse will do[:)]

It does for me!
Link Posted: 11/19/2003 3:28:39 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Spooge5150:

And does that price include all three barrels?

or just one of the above.
View Quote


Just one of the above!
Link Posted: 11/19/2003 3:47:15 PM EDT
Damn im still recovering from my SPR now this?? And of course Raptor22 is getting one send me some pics when you get it. Well taxes will be coming soon oh well who needs to invest hehe!!
        FREE
Link Posted: 11/19/2003 4:16:32 PM EDT
Ok, so only one barrel.

But is it 5.56mm or .223 chambered?

Or? 6.8mm?
Link Posted: 11/19/2003 5:44:49 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/19/2003 5:46:13 PM EDT by TacticalConcepts]
Guys, I was just handling the MRP yesterday. I have to say this. most of the time you handle new gun stuff it is either a copy or variation of a theme. every once in a while though, you get something show up that is truely innovative and step back and say "why wasn't this here 15-20 years ago". the MRP is in this class. LMT definitely didnt drop the ball on this one, they have a touch down. now the bad part. I can't afford one....wahhhhh!!
Link Posted: 11/19/2003 6:18:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/19/2003 6:24:50 PM EDT by Yojimbo]
The original post mentioned a chromelined barrel option for a couple of hundred less than the stainless barrel.

I'd like to see the specs on the chromelined barrel.

Are they 4150 steel?

Are the chambers 5.56?

Are the they 1/7, 1/8 or 1/9?

The MRP really looks like a great leap in AR technology!  It's not just fluff but a really functional and efficient design!  I really love how they've simplified the barrel change without compromising the design and function of the AR!

Is the MRP the URX killer?  It almost looks like LMT might have beaten KAC to the punch!

Ooooh my wallet is hurting....[BD]

Link Posted: 11/19/2003 7:41:49 PM EDT
IF an MRP was made in .308, and designed to fit the AR 10 lower.... who would want one?


   Stainless
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 12:22:54 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Yojimbo:
The original post mentioned a chromelined barrel option for a couple of hundred less than the stainless barrel.

I'd like to see the specs on the chromelined barrel.

Are they 4150 steel? [b][red]Yes[/red][/b]

Are the chambers 5.56? [b][red]Yes[/red][/b]

Are the they 1/7, 1/8 or 1/9? [b][red]1/7[/red][/b]

The MRP really looks like a great leap in AR technology!  It's not just fluff but a really functional and efficient design!  I really love how they've simplified the barrel change without compromising the design and function of the AR!

Is the MRP the URX killer?  It almost looks like LMT might have beaten KAC to the punch!

Ooooh my wallet is hurting....[BD]

View Quote
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 2:18:17 AM EDT
Marked, 'cause a man can can dream, right?
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 5:29:37 AM EDT
Very nice.  More than I'm willing to pay for a barreled upper right now, but nice.
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 6:17:09 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/20/2003 6:20:23 AM EDT by Feedingcannibal]
[green]Good thing[/green]: Great idea, LMT rocks. [image]http://community.the-underdogs.org/smiley/happy/icon_folder_new.gif[/image]

[red]Bad thing[/red]: Price.  Don't get me wrong - I'm sure it is well made, and worth it (so to speak), but all this good stuff is damn pricey![image]http://community.the-underdogs.org/smiley/happy/rcain.gif[/image]

[green]Good thing[/green]: Scooping up RAS IIs and SIRs when all the obsession boys buy LMT uppers![image]http://community.the-underdogs.org/smiley/happy/asbeat.gif[/image]

[red]Bad thing[/red]: Trying to decide between a new LMT upper and all the used RAS IIs and SIRs on the EE.[image]http://community.the-underdogs.org/smiley/angry/curse.gif[/image]


.
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 6:41:38 AM EDT
Wes,

 Thanks for the answers. Now I have one more question. How much are the barrels by themselves?


I think the long upper with the 16" and 18" barrels would be the perfect compromise I am looking for. On a different note, do they have plans to come out with a 20" inch barrel?
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 7:07:24 AM EDT
Wes,
Can you tell use the weight of a 16" barreled upper (chrome lined preferably).

Let me know if the weight includes charging handle, bolt, or bolt carrier.

Thanks!
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 8:38:21 AM EDT
How about the weight factor on these?  Looks like its all aluminum.


.
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 9:03:44 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/20/2003 9:05:21 AM EDT by MSTN]
Link Posted: 11/20/2003 2:46:26 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Yojimbo:
Is the MRP the URX killer?  It almost looks like LMT might have beaten KAC to the punch!
View Quote


While I think the MRP is great, I wouldn't call it a URX killer.  I still want a URX, as I believe many others do.  It's like comparing apples to oranges, they are two different things, designed for different systems.
Link Posted: 11/21/2003 4:56:31 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 11/21/2003 4:58:04 AM EDT by Yojimbo]
Originally Posted By wyv3rn:
Originally Posted By Yojimbo:
Is the MRP the URX killer?  It almost looks like LMT might have beaten KAC to the punch!
View Quote


While I think the MRP is great, I wouldn't call it a URX killer.  I still want a URX, as I believe many others do.  It's like comparing apples to oranges, they are two different things, designed for different systems.
View Quote


I wouldn't say it's like comparing apples to oranges and they are basically designed to do the same thing and give complete uninterrupted rail platform.  The URX just makes the installation a big PIA while the LMT offers a complete solution that's very easy to reconfigure as needed.  Though the LMT may be costlier it's user friendly setup may be well worth it.
Link Posted: 11/21/2003 6:26:05 AM EDT
Originally Posted By Yojimbo:
Originally Posted By wyv3rn:
Originally Posted By Yojimbo:
Is the MRP the URX killer?  It almost looks like LMT might have beaten KAC to the punch!
View Quote


While I think the MRP is great, I wouldn't call it a URX killer.  I still want a URX, as I believe many others do.  It's like comparing apples to oranges, they are two different things, designed for different systems.
View Quote


I wouldn't say it's like comparing apples to oranges and they are basically designed to do the same thing and give complete uninterrupted rail platform.  The URX just makes the installation a big PIA while the LMT offers a complete solution that's very easy to reconfigure as needed.  Though the LMT may be costlier it's user friendly setup may be well worth it.
View Quote


You are right they are both designed to do the same thing.  That doesn't exactly mean they compete with each other though.  They are two different things, designed for different systems.  The LMT MRP is it's own rifle, it's own system.  100% Compatibility is foregone and in place you get some extra rigidness, a cool barrel change feature, a gas tube that's kept 100% inline, etc.  The URX allows people to have rigid, uninterupted rails on their existing rifles, without having to spend $1200-1400 on a completely new upper.  Since it's also a separate piece, if you trash/destroy anything.. your upper, your rail system, whatever you still only need to replace that 1 part, not an entire monolithic system.  And it's not just a money issue, some people have spent lots of time and years tweaking their rifles for reliability or whatever else.  They've grown comfortable with the upper they have and don't want to ditch that.

So yes, they are designed to generally do the same thing, but they are targeting different markets entirely.  One is saying, let's improve on what we have.  The other is saying, redesign the whole thing in order to deliver a better product than what can be accomplished otherwise.  Naturally, different people will fall on different sides of the fence on what is best for them.
Link Posted: 11/21/2003 2:57:08 PM EDT
Both the MRP and the URX are targeting the Military....period.  Civilians Get the MRP on special order and the URX?  We don't even know when or if they will be available unfortunately.
Link Posted: 11/21/2003 4:03:31 PM EDT
Ya know this might just blow that XM8 project right of the water.

Oh poo! That would be a shame! [;D]
Link Posted: 11/21/2003 5:57:48 PM EDT
Yea and the new Hk plant in GA can start making MP-5's/G36's
      FREE

Originally Posted By Spooge5150:
Ya know this might just blow that XM8 project right of the water.

Oh poo! That would be a shame! [;D]
View Quote
Link Posted: 12/7/2003 7:56:08 PM EDT
Wes,

Is LMT coming out with a fixed front sight for the MRP CQB upper to go along with their fixed rear?

I will be emailing you regarding my SRP order :)

James
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 1:22:14 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 2:39:00 AM EDT
MMmm.Absolute Work of art! I need more pennies!
Link Posted: 12/8/2003 6:13:38 PM EDT
One little side note about the quick change barrel feature, it makes it relatively practical to remove the barrel for cleaning.  Having just removed a barrel from an upper, I just so happened to find that it's much easier to clean the barrel extension when its not attached to an upper receiver.  Ok, so duh, that's pretty obvious but I thought I would add it to the discussion anyway.
Link Posted: 12/20/2003 9:11:45 AM EDT
Originally Posted By jason_h:
One little side note about the quick change barrel feature, it makes it relatively practical to remove the barrel for cleaning.  Having just removed a barrel from an upper, I just so happened to find that it's much easier to clean the barrel extension when its not attached to an upper receiver.  Ok, so duh, that's pretty obvious but I thought I would add it to the discussion anyway.
View Quote


Yeah, i would use that to clean the barrel extension, but i would NEVER take the barrel out to use a cleaning rod.   Why?   No support, so you'll just wear the lands irregularly, and POOF!  there goes your accuracy.   Course, you probably wouldn't mess up a chrome lined barrel, but why would you put a cleaning rod through that anyway?   Just use a bore snake, and you can really clean it when you get home, or whatever.   The less you remove the barrel the better.

Link Posted: 12/20/2003 9:50:54 AM EDT
Cleaning the barrel after zeroing the rifle by removing it?  Counterproductive.

Anyone get theirs in yet?

Anyone have any feedback yet?

/S2
Link Posted: 12/20/2003 9:53:26 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SULACO2:
Cleaning the barrel after zeroing the rifle by removing it?  Counterproductive.

/S2
View Quote


Yeah, that also

Link Posted: 12/21/2003 7:45:22 AM EDT
Link Posted: 12/21/2003 11:34:25 AM EDT
OK. I'm practically sold on the MRP. One question - being entirely metallic, does the lower portion of the guard transmit enough heat to become uncomfortable from mag dumping, or over long/extended shoots?

I wonder if LMT has considered a lower polymer HG section, a la ARMS SIR?
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