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9/23/2020 3:47:02 PM
Posted: 6/1/2010 10:12:16 PM EDT
So I"m leaning more towards the DPMS AP4 in 5.56

But I was also looking at the Bushmaster M4A3 and the Spikes Tactical ST-15 M4 and the ST-15 M4 LE (what are the dif. between the two)

Anyone else have any suggestions to either of these 4 rifles or a rifle in the same price ranges
Link Posted: 6/1/2010 10:43:32 PM EDT
Spikes is top-tier quality for a budget price. DPMS is bottom-tier quality at a top-tier price. I think it's an easy decision.
Link Posted: 6/1/2010 10:57:01 PM EDT
Originally Posted By AK_Steve:
Spikes is top-tier quality for a budget price. DPMS is bottom-tier quality at a top-tier price. I think it's an easy decision.


DPMS is bottom tier?? Get real...DPMS makes good rifles.
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 2:13:51 AM EDT
i have to agree dpms is not bottom tier
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 3:47:12 AM EDT
If you want the best quality rifle for your money, then I'd buy the Spikes. They won't be selling for so cheap once they get more popular.  Bushmaster is known to put out better quality rifles than DPMS but are usually much more expensive. If the DPMS was like $600 and you only plan to shoot it a handful of times a year, then I'd get it. If you plan to go to carbine classes and use this for self defense then I'd buy the BM or Spikes. First decide what the Rifle is going to be used for.
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 4:39:58 AM EDT
If the price is right on the DPMS I say go for it.

Your not going to find alot of DPMS love on Arf, I own an AP4 and I have never had a problem, it's accurate and eats all the Wolf and Brown/Silver Bear I throw at it.

I remember when everyone on Arfcom was having a shit fit when Spikes raised their prices post election, apparently the masses have forgave and forgotten. Don't get me wrong though, Spikes makes a damn fine rifle, especially the M4 deal they have right now, thats hard to beat.
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 5:03:26 AM EDT
This is a no-brainer.  Get the Spikes.  While not bottom tier, DPMS is not even in the same ballpark as Spikes when it comes to quality and customer service.
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 5:59:31 AM EDT
OP You may as well just search this out. This thread is going to turn into a DPMS crap on thread. DPMS is the redheaded step child of the AR world.  Very easy to bash but yet seems to not have a real world problem from the many users that have them. There's this perceived quality thing & flavor of the month bias.
As someone said define what your going to use the rifle for. Then decide on a max price.

Link Posted: 6/2/2010 6:01:15 AM EDT
Skip on the DPMS & Bushy when there is a Spike's in the equation.
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 6:02:35 AM EDT
Originally Posted By AK_Steve:
Spikes is top-tier quality for a budget price. DPMS is bottom-tier quality at a top-tier price. I think it's an easy decision.


Wow, that was SO well put!!
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 6:30:37 AM EDT
DPMS may not have real world problems, I don't know that. But why would you want a gun made of inferior materials, with inferior testing, for a higher price? It's not bashing, it just doesn't make sense to me. Spikes is very popular right now for a reason.
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 6:45:38 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/2/2010 6:46:06 AM EDT by SmokeyJ]
Originally Posted By AK_Steve:
DPMS may not have real world problems, I don't know that. But why would you want a gun made of inferior materials, with inferior testing, for a higher price? It's not bashing, it just doesn't make sense to me. Spikes is very popular right now for a reason.




They are both made of the same thing, 7075-T6 aircraft aluminum alloy. Its not like the DPMS is made of plastic.

Link Posted: 6/2/2010 7:08:29 AM EDT
Originally Posted By SmokeyJ:
Originally Posted By AK_Steve:
DPMS may not have real world problems, I don't know that. But why would you want a gun made of inferior materials, with inferior testing, for a higher price? It's not bashing, it just doesn't make sense to me. Spikes is very popular right now for a reason.




They are both made of the same thing, 7075-T6 aircraft aluminum alloy. Its not like the DPMS is made of plastic.



Mainly I'm talking about barrel steel. Also I don't think the AP4 has a chrome-lined chamber and bore.
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 7:26:29 AM EDT
DPMS?  Didn't they have issues with bolts snapping in half at the cam pin hole?
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 7:39:42 AM EDT
Originally Posted By AK_Steve:
Originally Posted By SmokeyJ:
Originally Posted By AK_Steve:
DPMS may not have real world problems, I don't know that. But why would you want a gun made of inferior materials, with inferior testing, for a higher price? It's not bashing, it just doesn't make sense to me. Spikes is very popular right now for a reason.




They are both made of the same thing, 7075-T6 aircraft aluminum alloy. Its not like the DPMS is made of plastic.



Mainly I'm talking about barrel steel. Also I don't think the AP4 has a chrome-lined chamber and bore.


Chrome lined barrel is an option, there is a difference in the barrel steel though,. Spikes has the 4150 Chromoly while the AP4 appears to have 4140.

I find myself defending DPMS in threads from time to time, I guess it's because I have one, it works and I'm pretty happy with it. Maybe I am sympathetic for the underdog.

. If you put that Spike's M4 and a DPMS AP4 in front of me and said "choose", I would go with the Spike's, it's just a better deal for the money.
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 8:04:25 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/2/2010 8:04:39 AM EDT by MistoGators]
If it's between a Bushy, DPMS, and Spike's, get the Spike's. They have a great deal right now and the other 2 are definitely not in the same class (look at the chart).
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 8:30:22 AM EDT
Originally Posted By ZachLewis21:
So I"m leaning more towards the DPMS AP4 in 5.56

But I was also looking at the Bushmaster M4A3 and the Spikes Tactical ST-15 M4 and the ST-15 M4 LE (what are the dif. between the two)

Anyone else have any suggestions to either of these 4 rifles or a rifle in the same price ranges


If I'm in the same situation as you out of those four choices that you stated, I would get the Spikes Tactical ST-15 M4 LE which have the lower price of the two Spikes model, and the money I saved I would buy ammo for practice.

That Spike's model that I prefer are a very good value with desirable military spec features compared to the other brands you mentioned.

If you want to find out what brands of AR to stay away from go to the AR-15 Troubleshooting forum, you will know actual problems of different brands and what are the brands that are causing the most troubles.


Link Posted: 6/2/2010 8:41:28 AM EDT
The ST-15 is cold hammer forged, and the M4LE is stamped. To find out the exact differences you can google it, but the barrels themselves are the same. The difference is how they are made.
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 8:57:49 AM EDT
without a doubt, of the choices that you listed, I choose the Spike's - you will be glad you did! - enjoy the Spike's goodness -
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 1:00:32 PM EDT
If I could go back in time & purchase my first AR, it would be Spikes for sure. You wont have any regrets like a did lol.
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 1:13:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/2/2010 10:22:55 PM EDT by AK_Steve]
I set up a DPMS with chrome lined and added a Pmag, thats how the Spikes come. The total came out to $995.95!! Again, this is for a non mil-spec barrel steel and only batch tested barrels and bolts. Also, the bolts are not shot-peened. When you can get the Spikes with mil-spec 4150 cmv barrels that undergo MP and HP testing for $800 or less shipped. Easy decision!! Sorry, I'm being a Spikes fanboy because I just got back from the range with my new Spikes middy and it ran flawlessly.
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 1:15:18 PM EDT
Surprised no one named Bravo Co
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 1:19:37 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/2/2010 1:28:31 PM EDT by Mccray]
Bushamster. My M4A3 was as accurate if not better than my BCM 16". A great good quality rifle. I hear they are better than DPMS and I don't know much about Spikes except I personally loath the trademark spider graphic on everything. Not that that has anything to do with quality just preference on my part.Spikes do seem to be the flavor of month. A Bushmaster wont let you down though speaking form experience. The only minor down side of a Bushamster is the Commercial reciever extention wich kind of limits your stock options a bit but that can be changed anyway.

Edit.. I hate when I type BusHAMSTER
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 1:27:35 PM EDT
so what would you all go with, the st-15 or the le model?
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 1:30:59 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Maryland_Shooter:
Surprised no one named Bravo Co


+1 I would consider a BCM also in your choices
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 2:12:39 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/2/2010 2:13:45 PM EDT by MistoGators]
Originally Posted By ZachLewis21:
so what would you all go with, the st-15 or the le model?

Get the ST-15 Mid-Length LE; can't beat it for $810.



http://www.spikestactical.com/z/index.php?main_page=product_info&cPath=113&products_id=443

Edit: You can also use ARFCOM as a promotion code to get 5% off.

Link Posted: 6/2/2010 2:27:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/2/2010 2:28:15 PM EDT by 325moutguru]
Get the Spike's.
I had a DPMS, decided it wasn't worth the pain to replace everything.  (Arctic Panther)
Have a Bushmaster, although the only 2 parts that are still BM are the upper and lower (stripped) everything else has been replaced.

Both the DPMS and Bushy were OK from the factory but neither I would take through a carbine course or SHTF.
The DPMS had a problem with short stroking and the charging handle bent after 200 rounds.  
(Really weird cause I only use the CH for the 1st round, bolt catch takes over after that.)

You can get quality from DPMS and BM but at what price?
Go with the Spike's and don't look back.

My 2 cents anyway.
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 2:52:49 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Maryland_Shooter:
Surprised no one named Bravo Co

Thats because the majority of members here don't shoot more than 100rds a year. So POS like DPMS will last them forever....hell a airsoft ggb AR15 will suit them fine to..
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 3:49:58 PM EDT
Originally Posted By fuzzy03cls:
OP You may as well just search this out. This thread is going to turn into a DPMS crap on thread. DPMS is the redheaded step child of the AR world.  Very easy to bash but yet seems to not have a real world problem from the many users that have them. There's this perceived quality thing & flavor of the month bias.
As someone said define what your going to use the rifle for. Then decide on a max price.



You sound like a DPMS owner.

It isn't about "perceived quality" because the things that separate the run of the mill ARs from the hard use guns are measureable.  Over the past few months I've grown very sick of people who keep throwing around this "flavor of the month" BS.  Over time new companies pop up and new products are introduced.  What is or isn't a good deal changes over time, get over it.  Maybe 10 years ago the ABCs were the best (and some of the only) options out there, but in the past 5 years this industry has seen exponential growth due to the AWB ending and things don't stay the same for long.
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 3:54:15 PM EDT
You could always build your own (although I don't know about the price) but that Spike's rifle looks like a GREAT deal.
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 6:52:09 PM EDT
Originally Posted By seanvi:
Originally Posted By AK_Steve:
Spikes is top-tier quality for a budget price. DPMS is bottom-tier quality at a top-tier price. I think it's an easy decision.


DPMS is bottom tier?? Get real...DPMS makes good rifles.


It's as close as you can get and they make average, not good rifles. The only ones below it are Olympic and Hesse/Vulcan/Blackthorne/whatever they are calling themselves these days. All of the following are better than DPMS: Colt, RRA, Bushmaster, LMT, BCM, Spikes, Noveske, LaRue, KAC, Daniel Defense, Sabre Defence, Stag, S&W......I think you get the idea

As to the OP, get the Spikes. It's the best deal out there right now and still a step above Bushmaster (although Bushmaster is not bad choice). I suggest getting the Spikes LE series, preferably the midlength. You don't need the other Spikes model as the only difference is a hammer forged barrel which you don't need. Take a look at the following thread for more info, reviews, and a range report of Spikes:

http://www.ar15.com/forums/topic.html?b=3&f=118&t=486660
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 8:56:04 PM EDT
The standard answer to any question here is "Get a Spikes".  A Spikes will look much better with your operator grade tactical outerwear.
Link Posted: 6/2/2010 10:04:13 PM EDT
To the original poster,

I love Arfcom (ar15.com). Having said that there is sometimes a Hive Mind, flavor of the month, Kool-aid, bandwagon quality that can be found here. You have to find the middle of the road in many of the opinions expressed here. For instance the DMPS is not going to turn to dust and blow away in your hands. Anything made by COLT isn't infallible, indestructible, going to make you walk on water, etc. There are Fan-boys who will defend to the death whatever product they have. And there are people who will criticize anyone just because they have nothing else to do !

Between the two brands you mentioned DMPS and Spikes I would tell you to go with Spikes because of the following reasons:

It will be less expensive.
It will have slightly better materials in the barrel for sure, possibly in the BCG, and the extractor as well.
Spikes makes sure each rifle functions as a system before it leaves them.
Customer service with them is phenomenal!
You can customize your gun so you aren't paying for parts you are going to take off to install items you want to change out right away.
Chrome lining is standard.
Attention to details like gas port size, etc



I do know of a major police agency that canceled an order with DPMS for a large number of AR 15 rifles, because of some quality issues with the first batch. Having said that though I know of a few high speed low drag types that have DPMS rifles they instruct courses with. I have to be honest I was a bit snobbish too, but they really opened my eyes. They run them to show it is not the gun but the operator that matters most! The guy behind the counter at US firearms academy runs a DPMS even though his company makes Battle Born billet lowers.

Here is a great article where someone who knows a little about the AR 15 uses a DPMS lower http://www.defensereview.com/the-big-m4-myth-fouling-caused-by-the-direct-impingement-gas-system-makes-the-m4-unreliable/ .

Basically figure out what your budget is and what you want in your gun safe. I have learned through the years to buy what I want up front and to buy the best quality I could afford the first time. Now I have a whole forest of AR15's because I have BRD. I have a bunch of different makers and all kinds of goodies that go onto my lego guns and ones I have built myself.

Just keep in mind every gun is an individual. If DMPS, COLT, and Spikes make 20 guns, each one with be slightly different. For instance out of all my guns, Hvy barrels, Varmint, m4, and govt profiles, my most accurate rifle is an 05 built Rock River Arms 16" mid-length upper with a chrome lined 1:9 twist barrel  with a Surefire NON free-float rail system on it.  A bunch of stuff that people will say to stay away from for accuracy, but despite all that it does what it does. You can spend extra money to increase your chances of getting a really good rifle, but sometimes it is just luck of the draw.


Link Posted: 6/2/2010 10:19:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/2/2010 10:22:36 PM EDT by AK_Steve]
Originally Posted By Guardian56:
To the original poster,

I love Arfcom (ar15.com). Having said that there is sometimes a Hive Mind, flavor of the month, Kool-aid, bandwagon quality that can be found here. You have to find the middle of the road in many of the opinions expressed here. For instance the DMPS is not going to turn to dust and blow away in your hands. Anything made by COLT isn't infallible, indestructible, going to make you walk on water, etc. There are Fan-boys who will defend to the death whatever product they have. And there are people who will criticize anyone just because they have nothing else to do !

Between the two brands you mentioned DMPS and Spikes I would tell you to go with Spikes because of the following reasons:

It will be less expensive.
It will have slightly better materials in the barrel for sure, possibly in the BCG, and the extractor as well.
Spikes makes sure each rifle functions as a system before it leaves them.
Customer service with them is phenomenal!
You can customize your gun so you aren't paying for parts you are going to take off to install items you want to change out right away.
Chrome lining is standard.
Attention to details like gas port size, etc



I do know of a major police agency that canceled an order with DPMS for a large number of AR 15 rifles, because of some quality issues with the first batch. Having said that though I know of a few high speed low drag types that have DPMS rifles they instruct courses with. I have to be honest I was a bit snobbish too, but they really opened my eyes. They run them to show it is not the gun but the operator that matters most! The guy behind the counter at US firearms academy runs a DPMS even though his company makes Battle Born billet lowers.

Here is a great article where someone who knows a little about the AR 15 uses a DPMS lower http://www.defensereview.com/the-big-m4-myth-fouling-caused-by-the-direct-impingement-gas-system-makes-the-m4-unreliable/ .

Basically figure out what your budget is and what you want in your gun safe. I have learned through the years to buy what I want up front and to buy the best quality I could afford the first time. Now I have a whole forest of AR15's because I have BRD. I have a bunch of different makers and all kinds of goodies that go onto my lego guns and ones I have built myself.

Just keep in mind every gun is an individual. If DMPS, COLT, and Spikes make 20 guns, each one with be slightly different. For instance out of all my guns, Hvy barrels, Varmint, m4, and govt profiles, my most accurate rifle is an 05 built Rock River Arms 16" mid-length upper with a chrome lined 1:9 twist barrel  with a Surefire NON free-float rail system on it.  A bunch of stuff that people will say to stay away from for accuracy, but despite all that it does what it does. You can spend extra money to increase your chances of getting a really good rifle, but sometimes it is just luck of the draw.




Try flavor of the century, Kool-aid's been around since 1927.

Link Posted: 6/2/2010 10:29:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 6/2/2010 10:30:40 PM EDT by Guardian56]
Great now we are going to get dragged into what is the best flavor of Kool-aid discussion! Are we going to do it with or without a B.A.D lever? j/k!
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