User Panel
Posted: 6/24/2005 10:29:05 AM EDT
This comes up over and over again, so here are the facts. And, no, no one here knows what "PD" really stands for, if anything.
The Lake City Army Ammunition Plant is the only remaining small-arms ammo factory owned by the government, and is the source of most ammo used by the US military. [Due to the drastic increase in ammo usage with the WoT, Winchester/Olin, the only other company with the loading machines to make mil-spec ammo, has been given a contract for a few million rounds of ammo.] Lake City, while owned by the government, has always been run by civilian contractors. From 1986-1999, it was operated by Olin (Winchester). The Winchester "white box" "Q-load" ammo (such as Q3131) was Lake City-manufactured ammo stamped with Winchester (WCC) headstamps. Starting in 2000, the contract to operate Lake City was given to Alliant Techsystems (ATK), who had just bought all the gun-related companies that were formerly owned by Blount. This "shooting sports group" included: Federal, Speer, CCI, RCBS, Weaver, Outers, Ramline, and perhaps one or two others. ATK chose Federal to run Lake City, and thus, the "Federal XMxxx" loads were born. The US military has extremely tough and strict requirements for ammo, and many layers of Quality Control (QC) checks to ensure that contract ammo is up to spec. Obviously, as with any mass-produced item, some of the product is going to fail QC. LC-produced ammo that passes all the QC checks is packaged up and sent out to fulfill military contracts. I call this "Grade 1" ammo, which means "the best." Note that ammo that is delivered to the military can no longer be surplussed as whole ammo, due to an Executive Order by Klinton in 1997, so as a rule, this ammo will never be available on the commercial market. Ammo that fails QC in a minor way, such as not being completely moisture-sealed, but is otherwise good ammo is "Grade 2". That's what "XM193" is that Federal sells in 20-round boxes: Grade 2 ammo. The same with XM855. Ammo that has more serious problems, such as severe dents, bent rounds, split necks, and so on, is "Grade 3" (or worse). Federal is selling this as XM193PD and XM855PD, and packs it loose in 500 round boxes. (For those who haven't been around long, loose-packed ammo is almost always Grade 3 or lower quality, no matter who you buy it from. If it was higher quality, it would have been boxed up and sold at full price!) It is important to understand that batches of Grade 2 ammo may be made up of a mix of Grade 1 and Grade 2, and that Grade 3 ammo may have both Grade 1 and Grade 2 ammo mixed in. The grade is given based on the worst ammo in the lot. XM193PD (Grade 3) is sold at a discount compared to the boxed XM193 (Grade 2), and real M193 is not available to the public (unless it was surplussed before 1997). Discounted prices on ammo generally mean the ammo is lower quality, especially when the same ammo is sold for two or more different prices, so this really shouldn't be a surprise to anyone. Also note that the PD loads are clearly marked "For Practice Use Only", another indication that this is DEFINITELY NOT Grade 1 (or even Grade 2) ammo. Hopefully that clears up any confusion you might have. For those who have purchased "PD" ammo, make sure you hand-sort it first, and cull out any bad rounds. Also, be prepared for a squib load or any other unusual behavior, and make sure you know what to do when and if something occurs. Finally, do NOT use the PD ammo for anything "important", and especially not for duty or defensive use. This is bargain ammo that will give performance and reliability in proportion to its selling price. TANSTAAFL! -Troy |
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Troy,
If you are still there, I have purchased several loose lots of 1000 XM193 that appeared very clean overall. They were remanufactured by Federal and have minimal physical flaws. Should these be considered grade 3? |
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Federal does not remanufacture ammo; only Talon does that. Remanufactured ammo is automatically Grade 3 simply because it's usually less reliable, even without the visible flaws. It should only be used for practice/range/plinking. -Troy |
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I don't know where you're looking, but it may be that they are selling 2 500-round packs together, or actually do have different packaging. Most places are selling it in 500-round bulk boxes, loose-packed. www.sportsmansguide.com/cb/cb.asp?a=163183 www.ammoman.com/webstore_223.htm -Troy |
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I just sorted through 500 rds of PD and pulled 23 rounds that I considered "iffy". Defects ranged from split necks to heavily dented bodies, some had slightly bulged necks and some had a gooey tar like substance around the neck where the bullet seats. Most were 2003 manufacture although some were from the mid and late 90's. I'll probably shoot some of the defective rounds but only one at a time to be safe and the ones with the split/bulged necks are going in the trash.
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So does that mean the goverment is still using 55gr. I thought they only used 62 gr 855. So why is LC still producing xm193?
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thanks for the info. I just got 1000 rds on friday from a vendor. I didn't realize it was grade 3 ammo. It is being advertised as "government issue". I guess grade 3 really isn't "government issue". feeling like I just got bent over and used.
I normally fire remanufactured ammo from a local company with very few if any incidents. should I expect at least simmilar performance from this XM193PD? I'm taking a tactical carbine class this week I sure hope I don't have 1000rds of junk. |
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There are still plenty of older rifles in service that need the 55 grain ammo. Especially with the callup of so many National Guard units which tend to have the oldest equipment. Over time this should change as newer 62 grain compatible (read the Ammo Oracle to see the real deal about this issue) weapons are brought in and the older weapons are retired. Eventually 55 grain production will reduce to very low levels and the surplus will be mostly XM855. I don't have any idea of a timeline for that however. Futuristic |
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Troy did a very good job in his post.
I have to add: Federal never sees this ammo. We have been assigned to support it, but it never sees the Federal plant in MN. To some of the other posts here.... The extra "tar" is fine, just use solvent on a rag,(do NOT soak). You have recieved Mega waterproofing. ::laughing:: It is harmless, but build up could cause symptoms like heavily laquered Wolf ammo. Clean it off and continue on. Split necks, fat lips and heavy dents should be discarded. I am not speaking in any official capacity, In this I'm just a shooter who would follow his own advice. My 2 cents? If you buy the PD ammo, simply inspect each round. PD is NOT combat ammo... it should only be considered for practice. (This is in my own opinion) |
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just got a reply from a shooter on a different site, simmilar question. He has put 5,000 rds of XM193PD through his AR with NOT ONE malfunction. I feel better.
holly crap Fedgunner! 2000+ posts! you one posting MOFO!!! |
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These guys keep me hopping! |
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Just got back from Defensive Edge's two day "Tactical Carbine" course. Had no problem with the PD ammo. I probably culled out 20 rds from 1000 during mag loading.
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Good info, Troy! Thanx, rest of you guys. With all the price pressure/out-of-stock situations, this thread is invaluable!!!
DON'T USE THE PLINKING AMMO WHEN THE WOLVES ARE AT THE DOOR--YOUR DOOR! Blast the milk bottles, and beer cans with the plinkers keep the good shit in mags on hand for the stinkers! GOD CONTINUE TO BLESS AND KEEP THESE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA! HAPPY BIRTHDAY AMERICA! |
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Here's the big question ...
Carbine training/classes cost a lot ... would you use XM193PD in a class, or would worries over malfunctions make it not worth the savings in ammo costs? |
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There's what, a $40 difference per 1000, max, between XM193 and XM193PD. How much is your training costing you? Can you afford to screw up that training to save $40? -Troy |
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I understand "PD" stands for "Pull Down". Not sure what it means, though.
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Not true; that's just one of many things people have suggested as a possiblity. Federal isn't saying. Regardless, the PD is a lower grade of ammo. -Troy |
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I got a 1000 of 855pd said it is 62 g has 05 marking looked at all they were very clean and no dents or any imperfections shot 300 with no problems.
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Does Federal say anything about this ammo at all?
I've got a bunch. Seems that even after I check this stuff out I always seem to find out about problems a few days after I buy something. Grrrr. Anyhow, I bought about 4-5K rds in the past 2-4 months. Now I am a little leary about shooting the stuff. Sure not going to do slow fire for 5,000rds. Not my style. |
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As in my previous post- I just fired almost 1000rds at a two day carbine course. As long as you inspect each round I wouldn't be afraid to shoot the ammo. This is where a LULU comes in handy. before you load each round give it a once over doesn't take as long as you think.
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Originally Posted By drjarhead:
Well, that's a good question… and so we did the "legwork." This should go a long way toward de-confusing matters: The Straight Ammo Skinny. |
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Thanks for info. At the DE tac. Carbine course I took two gents had trouble with the PD round. They needed a cleaning rod to pop it out and good to go. (lot 101 IIRC) Fedgunner was there.
I am planning to buy some older SS109 http://www.aimsurplus.com/acatalog/copy_of__223.html so add $17 shipping $177. Is this a good deal? I have bought Fed. American Eagle for $100 per 500 rds in 20 rd boxes. (after tax) Or is there a better source? Thanks. |
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I always thought PD meant "Possibly Defective".
We can make up our own names until someone from Federal actually shows up and tells us. |
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Okay ... I've acquired my first box of XM193PD and I am ... disappointed. I should have listened to the people here more carefully.
I'm more than 2/3 of the way through checking it all, round by round. I've found 351 rounds that look good enough that I'd be comfortable loading them in a magazine for a class or match. About the same amount have noticeable dings and dents in the cases, or bullets that are seated just a little too long or a little too short. Those are probably okay for pllinking. Then I have a bag with about 75-100 rounds that I won't be firing. Here are some of the defects detected visually: 1. Torn, cracked, or "folded" case mouth 2. Other crack in case 3. Bullet loaded way, way too short or long based on position of cannelure with respect to case mouth and overall length 4. Severe dents I won't be buying any more. The small price break is not worth it. |
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Interesting info. Thanks. |
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Anyone know the EO # on this? |
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I looked it up a couple years ago, but I didn't write it down. It's basically an EO that clarifies the implementation of the UN International Small Arms Trafficing treaty that Klinton signed on our behalf. -Troy |
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Given the quality ammo shortages, which would you rate higher?
XM193PD or Wolf Polymer Coated 55gr FMJ? |
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I'd choose (hand-sorted) XM193PD over Wolf every day of the week and twice on SHTF-day. Wolf is PLINKING/PRACTICE/RANGE ammo, NOTHING ELSE, EVER... (unless you literally have nothing better, and then you blew it).
-Troy |
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Why don't we tell Our Senators, Congressmen, and President Bush especially, that this Executive order needs to be rescinded, or nullified with a new Executive Order, since the purpose of it seems to be to make "sheep" out of us. |
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Wondering what the minimum acceptable cartridge length is for M193 spec'ed ammo. What do you consider acceptable for match vs. plinking vs. just plain unsafe? |
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i'm on my second case of 2000 rounds....makes my M16 run like a scalded dog.
i love the stuff and will continue to buy.... |
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someone please kill this rumor. please show me a unit that is carrying these. Most NG units have m4s now. |
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Thanks for the info Troy. . .
With this info in mind, it has got me wondering what Cabelas is thinking writing this as a description on the M855 they are selling: Bulk Lake City Arsenal .223 SS109 Ammunition Shoot the same ammunition that our troops abroad trust their lives to in these bulk-packaged .223 rounds. Manufactured in the USA by Lake City Arsenal, this overrun of ammunition is not remanufactured or below-spec rounds. The 62-grain, steel-core M855 Green Tip Penetrator is the same firepower supplied to our elite units, including the Navy SEALs. Stringent military standards ensure reliable, consistent performance for your target shooting and varmint hunting. Muzzle velocity: 3,070 feet-per-second. Cabelas makes this ammo sound like it is grade 1 ammunition M4-CQBR |
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Simple: they're lying in order to make their inventory sound more appealing. Sadly, this is almost standard practice in retail sales, and has been for a long time. Hence the term "Caveat Emptor", or "Buyer Beware." Also, TANSTAAFL (There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch) and YGWYPF (You Get What You Pay For). If this was Grade 1 ammo, they'd be charging Grade 1 prices for it. -Troy |
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Perhaps I'm not as picky as others. Out of 3,000 rounds I rejected only ONE with a folded neck. During a 5-day/3,000 round carbine course there were FOUR squibs; All four exited the barrel. And even this fast paced course allowed for handling of squibs. That means 2,995 rounds worked fine; Dents, dings, boogers and all. I'll continue to use it as a training round. |
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Units in MO and AR still have rifles with the old twist. I've been issued M193 to shoot on a National Guard Base in AR (Ft. Chaffee). (I'm not in the NG though!!) Many of them get newer rifles when they deploy but their armories are filled with slower twist rifles. It's not a rumor. I also saw an Air Force unit with the old A1s a few years ago. Yes....triangle handguards and all!!! |
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So with the very limited availability of grade 2 what are we supposed to stock for SHTF?
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FWIW... I'm most of the way through a case of XM193PD I received two weeks ago. I checked each round before loading it onto a stripper clip. I rejected 9 because of crushed/split necks and about 30 more because the bullet was seated too deeply.
I did have one squib. It cleared the barrel but did not cycling the action. HTH |
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PD means Propellent Deficient it's the only varible in the make up of the loaded round! They are rejected by weight by an automatic machine, which causes the dents and dings and bent cases. Weigh some and you will find they are all different, maybe not enough to cause a malfuntion but enough to be rejected. Imagine facing a foe in combat and getting a squib load with the projectile getting stuck in the barrel. Not Good!
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just finished sorting through ~1000 XM193(PD) that i got from sportsmansguide.com before the summer showed, havent shot any (got lots of wolf too, and i used that first)
took me almost 3 hrs to sort through by hand (and load em into spare mags) anyways, i ended up w/ ~60 rnds w/ noticible, small or minor dents on the casing; ~20 where the bullets were imbeded a tad deep in the case, several noticibly too much; ~10 where the bullet, it is tight, but the serrations on the bullets stick up a tad over the rim of the case w/ exception to the ones that are too deeply embeded in the case, do yall (or mr.. Troy) think that its ok to plink with? also got 14 rounds whrere there was a slight fissure/crack on the neck or misshaped necks (but all of the bullets were properly seated, and the casing sealed)--still dont think that i will shoot these i also got 11 whose bullets were VERY loose to the extent that i pulled one of em from the casing--will have to discard these thanks mr Troy for the tacked info! |
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ok! So....
With the limited availability of good .mil type ammo what should we stock for SHTF |
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How about some good .mil type ammo? Outdoor Marksman has 29,000 rounds of Q3131A available. Natchez has 35,000 rounds of XM193 on hand. Widener's has been increasing their inventory of XM193, now with 157,000 rounds on hand. Ammoman is back in stock with XM193. And if you think these prices are a bit high, consider that WOLF 55gr and 62gr FMJ is now selling for $139/1000 delivered, WOLF 62gr JHP now $149/1000 delivered from Ammoman. For prices and availability, updated daily, see the Ammo Price List. |
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