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Posted: 8/17/2005 3:27:23 PM EDT
[#1]
Tango Victor Mike! |
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Posted: 8/20/2005 12:17:45 PM EDT
[#2]
For prices and availability, updated daily, see the Ammo Price List.
Thanks for the link to the price list. My experience was about the same with this PD crap. I bought one case (2,000 rounds) of XM193PD. Came as two 1,000 round cases in a over pac box. The stuff was crap. I opened only one 1,000 round case and started looking through it, after 250 rounds, I gave up and dumped it all back in. - Over All Length issues. - Filthy enough to qualify as floor sweepings. - 5 different years from '00 to '04 (Not conducive to fun shooting let alone accuracy). - Neck seal all over outside of cases. But what pissed me off most is that the seller's, who shall remain unnamed, lied about it in their ads. The price was not much below the boxed Federal AE per 1,000, but the quality was appauling. It was advertised as: "Lake City Overrun! Original Production! Not Surplus! This is the same ammo used by our troops in Iraq., 62 gr. steel core, 1000/box, 2 boxes/case" They forgot to mention that the case is clearly labeled "For Practice Use Only", something that I would have liked to have know before ordering it. And that our troops rejected it as, Yep you guessed it, CRAP! Summary: Buy this at your own risk, some may be OK, mine was CRAP! I will never buy it again. As for what I did with mine, I sent it back to the seller with a letter indicating "How pissed off I was at them" and they gave me back all my money plus the shipping. I guess they looked up how much I've spent there in the past and didn't want to loose a good customer. FYI: I suggested that they change their ads, but they never did. |
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Posted: 8/20/2005 8:06:55 PM EDT
[#3]
I bought 4000 rds of the brown boxed XM193 Lot 100. These are newly produced cartridges. I probably bought the last my vendor had. 5 days later they were out of stock when I decided I should've bought more. These round are definitely GRADE 1. I first opened and checked 2000 rds. Not even one single defect. No excess sealent, dents, dings, crooked bullets, discoloration, or even scratches. This is the most PERFECT ammo I have ever seen. This is the Real Deal!!! I was considering the time taking sorting involved by purchasing the PD, but decided it wasn't worth the headache. This ammo is so good after the first 2000 rds I would trust loading my mags for my next session almost Blind Folded. I put a digital caliper on this ammo to measure for consistency after hearing the horror stories of the PD, and the diameter and length were right on the money. I admit though, I had to SHELL out alot of $$$. (no pun intended!)
I love this ammo so much, I'm scared to shoot it all. This is my ammo for SHTF!!!! |
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Posted: 8/22/2005 9:54:11 PM EDT
[#4]
msz, where did you get that stuff?
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Posted: 8/22/2005 11:26:29 PM EDT
[#5]
It's important to know that XM193 is what we on ARF consider grade 2 ammo. The X designates it did not pass mil-spec QC. Unless you're active military you won't get grade 1 ammo. Grade 2 is the best grade ammo a civilian can legally acquire and XM193 is currently the most available grade 2 round. It currently sells for ~$225 per case. This thread is to primarily discuss XM193PD ammo which most ARF members consider grade 3. However, the interview posted on page 2 of this thread contradicts that. The Federal spokesman states the -PD suffix only designates bulk packaging. |
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Posted: 8/23/2005 6:45:06 AM EDT
[#6]
Which is a lot like Ford stating that Firestone tires only resulted in "increased tire wear" when they were exploding and causing all of those roll-over accidents. Clearly, the XM193 in 20-round boxes isn't anywhere near as bad as the PD stuff can be, and note that the non-PD stuff has never been marked "For Practice Use Only". Be careful about putting too much stock in what the Federal rep stated; just because he works there doesn't mean that he wants to tell (or even KNOWS) the whole truth. -Troy |
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Posted: 8/24/2005 2:48:30 AM EDT
[#7]
I definitely agree. |
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Posted: 8/31/2005 4:50:22 PM EDT
[#8]
Maybe "Federal" isn't saying, but I got this information from ATK/LCAAP management (not some BS public relations/communications dude); ATK being their parent corporation. |
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Posted: 9/1/2005 7:04:16 AM EDT
[#9]
Absolutely correct. Advertising on PD ammo has consistently been false at numerous internet ammo sites. For example: "Lake City Overrun!" -- The Government contract does not allow for overruns. The Government ONLY pays for what passes the stringent QA controls. The rest are REJECTS, not overruns! To keep from losing money on the stuff the Government won't accept, ATK/Federal sells it on the commercial market. The Government owns the equipment/facility and the operating contractor is prohibited from using it directly for commercial purposes. "Original Production!" -- Hmmm, "original" as compared to what? These are 'original production' QA rejects. "Not Surplus!" Actually, I wish I COULD get grade 1 surplus; however, every Government accepted cartridge goes to training or GWOT. This statement has no relevant meaning. It is advertising BS. "This is the same ammo used by our troops in Iraq." WRONG! FALSE! ATK/Federal sells us Government rejects; we don't allow our troops to shoot rejected/dented ammunition. Ammo accepted by the Government must pass strict QA tests. So, who would buy this stuff if the real ad line read as follows: "Lake City Government Rejects! Some with dented cartridge cases! Dirty-looking ammo! This is the ammo our troops won't shoot in Iraq., 62 gr. steel core, 1000/box, 2 boxes/case"? To sell it, they have to falsely pump up the advertising line. IMHO |
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Posted: 9/2/2005 11:59:58 PM EDT
[#10]
Likely Grade 2 means "can sell to public" to any savvy manufacturer. When inventories start to go up it won't take a genius on the production line to grade a good bit of output "grade 2" so the line can keep going. Layoffs are a bitch.
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Posted: 9/3/2005 12:25:26 PM EDT
[#11]
This was so funny it's worth repeating. 
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Posted: 9/10/2005 10:12:00 AM EDT
[#12]
Just finished a 1000 of 855 not a single problem and all very clean
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Posted: 9/11/2005 8:52:22 PM EDT
[#13]
My son and I have shot over 800 rounds of this in the past couple of weeks and no problem. It looks and performs just like the boxed stuff. I really have to wonder if there are some unscrupulous individuals packing crap ammo in these boxes.
I also just opened another 1000rd box yesterday and started loading mags. I pulled one that I would have probably never noticed except for the scrutiny over this thread. |
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Posted: 9/16/2005 7:47:11 AM EDT
[#14]
 Bulk Packaging my ass. Squib rounds, split case necks and bullets seated waaay too deep. It's reject ammo, deal with it. It's not all bad, but it ain't all good either... The TMs say never fire PD (For Training Only) ammo over the heads of troops. Sounds like a pretty strong argument for the Propellent Deficient definition... |
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Posted: 9/19/2005 9:05:45 PM EDT
[#15]
Well, hell! I wish I had seen this thread PRIOR to ordering. Can't wait to see what I get.
 Despite what they say, I betcha 'PD' is for Product/Production Defect. |
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Posted: 9/20/2005 9:07:20 PM EDT
[#16]
+1 on all accounts. I buy it and shoot it at the range for one reason, it's cheap. But no way is it as consistent and "reliable" as XM193. I'm not knocking PD ammo for range shooting and plicking away. It's fine for those uses. I have some S&B ammo that I find more consistent than the XM193-PD. Shit, for a few extra bucks....BH Blue Box. |
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Posted: 9/23/2005 11:36:28 AM EDT
[#17]
So let me get this right...
Grade 1 is M193 Grade 2 is XM193 Grade 3 is XM193PD Grade 1 is M855 Grade 2 is ?????? Grade 3 is XM855PD Why have I not seen any XM855 for sale anywhere? |
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Posted: 9/24/2005 1:17:26 PM EDT
[#18]
I have 5500rds of XM193PD with the headstamp "LC 03" it looks as fine. The boxes are also not, I REPEAT, NOT marked "For Trainning Purposes Only." Got it from Natchez.
The ammo is good quality, fine ammo. Federal is not going to sell you something that will blow your gun up, it's a lot better than some of the shit out there... If your planning on actually popping someone (not in your "daydream" SHTF) there are better ammo choices than a 55gr FMJ. |
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Posted: 9/25/2005 8:02:35 AM EDT
[#19]
Shot 1000rds over labor day weekend. Every one went bang (thankfully not too big of a bang).
I found two with bullets that weren't seated properly, although I wasn't looking that close for minor discrepancies. |
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Posted: 9/25/2005 8:28:49 AM EDT
[#20]
I've shot a lot of PD as well. Some bulk pack has been good, if not excellent, and other bulk pacs/ammo cans full have been frustratingly inconsistent and not dependable. That's the risk you take with bulk ammo, you just don't know what you're going to get. Works fine for the range, as that's it's intended use and is priced as such. |
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Posted: 10/1/2005 10:15:44 AM EDT
[#21]
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Posted: 10/6/2005 1:47:13 PM EDT
[#22]
was at Sportsmans Guide website. Was looking at XM193 (it was labeled as such) but said it was packed loose. Since grade 3 is packed loose (PD) and grade 2 us boxed I called and asked which one is it. They said that it was XM193 grade 2 from lake city. Is that possible? Grade 2 packed loose? The ammo guide on this forum links to the same page if you click on XM193 or XM193PD.
Basically was I being lied to? |
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Posted: 10/6/2005 9:05:53 PM EDT
[#23]
[XM193] Grade 2 packed loose = [XM193PD] grade 3. You weren't lied to, it's misinformation this thread is trying to address. |
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Posted: 10/10/2005 2:34:46 PM EDT
[#24]
I fired a bunch of the LC surplus today at the range. Not one malfunction of any kind. I think they are certainly worth the price.
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Posted: 10/10/2005 5:00:26 PM EDT
[#25]
I work at Midway USA we get the XM855PD in huge bulk packs and repack them in 100rd 500rd 1000rd and 2000rd boxes. This stuff as good as all the Xm193 i have had.
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Posted: 10/10/2005 6:09:27 PM EDT
[#26]
I shot the lake city rejects todayat the range without problems in fact going buy another 1000 rds
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Posted: 10/12/2005 5:31:43 PM EDT
[#27]
After buying a 100rd pack of XM855PD, and measuring OAL and Case length 99/100 rounds where up to spec. By the looks of it the one that was not in spec looked like the bullet got stuck in something or was pryed apart at little bit, or it may of been steped on or somthing, the bullet and neck are bent alittle bit to one side. This ammo has much less dents and scratches than all of the boxed XM193 Ive seen. The problem with these bullets are that most of them have little or no primer sealent.
That said I will be buying alot more of this ammo. Edited for OPSEC Sorry guys 
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Posted: 10/13/2005 7:52:14 PM EDT
[#28]
There is nothing illegal about civilians acquiring or possessing "grade 1" ammunition. All Clinton did with his EO was instruct the armed forces to cease converting any ammunition to surplus for sale to outside parties. Once in the system, it never leaves. If they get desperate and start using Grade 2 or 3 ammunition, then the same restriction applies. If supply of grade 1 ammunition exceeds military demand, there is nothing stopping Alliant from selling Grade 1 to civilians. |
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Posted: 10/13/2005 8:00:05 PM EDT
[#29]
PD is for plinkin. I usually find a few dented cases or rounds with too much OAL. Just pull em and move on.
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Posted: 10/13/2005 8:11:28 PM EDT
[#30]
Where are you getting it for that? |
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Posted: 10/13/2005 9:45:09 PM EDT
[#31]
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Posted: 10/14/2005 12:41:28 PM EDT
[#32]
I hate you! 
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Posted: 10/15/2005 7:52:29 AM EDT
[#33]
It's true that most of the Lake City XM193 surplus ammo is in the 500-rd boxes nowadays. Just by shipping it that way, it's going to have more dents than the boxed stuff, definitely grade #3. Last year and the year before, I ordered a few thousands rounds of the grade #2 ammo in the 20-rd boxes and still, much of that ammo was dinged and dented, so I haven't seen a big difference in the quality levels. They both leave something to be desired. Win Q3131A seems to be better cosmetically out of the box. What you have to realize is that with XM193 grade #2 or #3, you are not getting the same stuff our troops are getting, as there is always some little thing wrong with it, which is why it's for sale. Bummer that Klinton did that exec order thing in 1997 re: surplus mil ammo. I wonder if we can rescind it? .
marceejay |
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Posted: 10/15/2005 8:33:26 PM EDT
[#34]
As previously discussed, this will never happen.
One person can rescind any and all previous EO's, the current president. But Bush 43 isn't the pro-gun komrade most people think he is. If he were, he'd rescind his father's 1989 import ban EO and Klinton's milsurp ammo EO. |
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Posted: 10/27/2005 8:53:40 PM EDT
[#35]
I can't bring myself to buy anything but ammoman's M855. It's got a real kick to it.
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Posted: 10/30/2005 1:39:55 PM EDT
[#36]
How come I see that M855 for sale now, its not any rejects its just M855, grade 1 ammo. Is it really grade 1 or are they trying to fool us?
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Posted: 11/1/2005 10:10:41 AM EDT
[#37]
 How did Eric get front line ammo if it can't be resold and all that is being manufactured is being used by the troops?
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Posted: 11/2/2005 3:03:17 AM EDT
[#38]
How this, how that, why this, why that.
Shit has to keep some guys up nights. My standard answer is "25 years in the business." BTW....................Wait till you see what's coming  Eric the ammoman |
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Posted: 11/2/2005 5:16:09 AM EDT
[#39]
Well, I sure am glad to see you back here and posting. In the ammo forum no less. But why don't you clear this up for us as you'd be the one guy I'd want to hear form on this. And don't tease us! What's coming?!
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Posted: 11/2/2005 7:38:13 AM EDT
[#40]
yeah... what do you have us looking forward to?
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Posted: 11/2/2005 9:47:16 AM EDT
[#41]
Well, I sure am glad to see you back here and posting. In the ammo forum no less. But why don't you clear this up for us as you'd be the one guy I'd want to hear form on this. And don't tease us! What's coming?! Not a goddamn thing to clear up, except where and how we got it. Let me put this as kind as possible. It's none of anybody's fucking business.Buy it or don't. The website description and pictures say it all and the real buyers, not the keyboard commandos, are happy as hell. Like i said before, give it a few more weeks and you won't have to worry about it anyway. As to what's coming in, there is always a reason i don't say what it is. In this case, i have a reason again. We will e-mail what it is the minute it gets here, to anyone on our e-mailing list. I for one, am really looking forward to it. To all the "real" buyers out there. Thanks so much for everything. Eric the ammoman |
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Posted: 11/2/2005 10:35:21 AM EDT
[#42]
Well, I sure am glad to see you back here and posting. In the ammo forum no less. But why don't you clear this up for us as you'd be the one guy I'd want to hear form on this. And don't tease us! What's coming?!h.gif Not a goddamn thing to clear up, except where and how we got it. Let me put this as kind as possible. It's none of anybody's fucking business.Buy it or don't. The website description and pictures say it all and the real buyers, not the keyboard commandos, are happy as hell. Like i said before, give it a few more weeks and you won't have to worry about it anyway. As to what's coming in, there is always a reason i don't say what it is. In this case, i have a reason again. We will e-mail what it is the minute it gets here, to anyone on our e-mailing list. I for one, am really looking forward to it. To all the "real" buyers out there. Thanks so much for everything. Eric the ammoman CS855 |
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Posted: 11/2/2005 2:09:19 PM EDT
[#43]
I was referring to the "PD", loose packed debate. Good ammo or third tier as some are saying? The frontline M855 seems obvious enough. While I am at it I am curious how many more K of ammo I have to buy to be a "'real' buyer"? |
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Posted: 11/2/2005 2:50:52 PM EDT
[#44]
Right now i would buy the PD ammo and get the broker a hooker for his birthday.
They always threw in a few extra to make up for any bad ones.They also never told us a thing. The PD stands for "PULL DOWNS" Very often, they found just a few bad ones in the inspection process and dusted the whole lot. Millions went out that were just fine. Some day, we might not be able to get certain ammo and the PD will look like a great choice. Who knows. BTW real buyers are anyone that has actually made a purchase.That comment was directed at the USA internet population. We have some nice things in our future and i am on the phone 24 hours a day looking for them. They won't always be the best quality or the best price but we will always offer our 30 day guarantee. Thanks Eric the ammoman |
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Posted: 11/2/2005 4:03:59 PM EDT
[#45]
Good to know info. Got plenty of PD and the boxed stuff but that M855 is just to sweet to let go. Damn! Didn't know you had it but you'll be shipping a case my way in the AM.
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Posted: 11/3/2005 10:15:29 AM EDT
[#46]
Damn, everyone gets touchy on this subject.  If you look at my question, it was open ended and not directed at you. We are being told this ammo can't be sold to civilians, but you have it. And since it doesn't sound like the BATFE is at your door, the statement on civilian sales must be wrong. Or things have changed. I'm not sure who the "real buyers" comment was made to. Look at my user name here and your emails. I've bought from you before. |
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Posted: 11/4/2005 10:51:31 AM EDT
[#47]
I just went through about 170 rounds of the "PD stuff" out of my brand new RRA Elite UTE2 (love it) with absolutely zero problems. This was purchased from Ammoman about 40 day ago and was the first time I had a chance to try it out.
Plenty of power, accurate enough for my purposes and priced right. I removed about 11 rounds from the 1000 I received because they did not meet my standards. I've been dealing with Eric for sometime now and can unconditionally recommend him as a source for quality American made, full power 5.56mm ammo. As a matter of fact, I purchased some of the LCA M855 he has in stock and plan to get more as the budget allows. 'nuff said... edited for clarification |
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Posted: 11/7/2005 5:07:41 PM EDT
[#48]
My brother and I took 4k rounds of XM193PD (out of a total of 7k) down to Blackwater and I had one malfuntion (failure to extract) on the first day. I did not bother to determine the cause. We had no other problems the whole week. I would definately buy this ammo again.
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Posted: 11/8/2005 7:04:37 AM EDT
[#49]
I bought some XM855PD locally. It was packed 1000 to a box, not 500. I bought a case of 2 boxes (2000 rounds). And this did not have "For Training Use Only" stamped on it.
I've gone through about 500 rounds with a case gauge. Also checking the seating of the bullets. Most are right at the top of the cannelure. So far, 2 had cases that probably would not have chambered (neck problems). Shot about 100 rounds so far. I'm happy with it. |
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Posted: 11/13/2005 7:53:05 PM EDT
[#50]
I bought another case of XM855PD this past week
I hand checked each round Saturday Night 11-12, and I didn't have one single round that was bad, or even questionable, there was also 1,040 rounds in the box That is 4 cases (4,000+ rounds) now with out a single bad round I'll say this again to the "internet professionals" who claim this ammo is junk, Go ahead and buy a case, judge for yourself, the ammo is good, and don't reley on the internet for first hand evaluation |
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