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5/28/2020 10:18:12 PM
Posted: 12/30/2002 3:13:35 PM EDT
I don't know much about the KAC company and was wondering if their M4s offered much more accuracy over Bushmaster M4s.  Thanks.
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 3:15:04 PM EDT
Neither...Get a RRA
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 5:40:57 PM EDT
KAC is a premier weapon making company.

They make excellent weapons what are closer to a custom maker than a production system.

That said you will also pay top dollar.

KAC have SS barrels last time I looked as well, with all else being equal will give greater accuracy than a Chrome Lined Bore.

I have seen KAC carbines shoot sub-moa

would a Bushy do that box stock?
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 7:31:55 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/30/2002 9:41:37 PM EDT
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 5:14:15 AM EDT
What I tell potential SR vs "other brand" buyers is this, "if you want an updated AR that Mr. Stoner actually engineered & worked on, then it going to be an SR.  That why ours is the only one called an SR (Stoner Rifle).
ColedBlue sends from Knight's...
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 5:35:22 AM EDT
I'd go with the KAC as it is fewer in number, but a little better in overall quality than the Bushmaster. The RRA is a very poor imitation.
Good Shootin, Jack
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 6:20:20 AM EDT
Id get a BUshmaster if its a gerneral purpose carbine.  Dont get me wrong I love KAC products.  I have a KAC FF RAS and KAC 2 stage trigger on my Bushmaster.  If I wanted a target rifle I might get the SR but for a fighting rifle get the Bushmaster.  There are no chrome lined Knights Rifles.

Please forgive me but what does Eugene Stoner have to do with the KAC rifles?
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 1:29:07 PM EDT
Thanks guys!
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 7:35:35 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 12/31/2002 7:41:49 PM EDT by davkenrem]
Originally Posted By 3rdtk:
The RRA is a very poor imitation.
Good Shootin, Jack
View Quote

Why do you say this? I own an RRA and it is excellant rifle. FIT and finsh,accurate and affordable. I have heard nothing but rave reviews about the RRA's. With the KAC. You pay allot for the name. What makes you say that the KAC is sooo much better. Is it more accurate? Better fit and finish, Or just more expensive. I have read allot of your post so I know you have some kind of affilation with the military, so you probably handle allot of guns. Does the US military buy kAC M4's?

Please elaborate on this comment you have made.
Link Posted: 12/31/2002 8:33:57 PM EDT
I have seen BM's, Colt's, Diemaco's, FN's, etc.
- yes RRA too

I have been to the KAC factory, seen test targets from different guns, and seen KAC rifles perform in unsupervised usage.

It is not a reasonable comparison to RRA, who as I recall put out some out of spec uppers - then made up a new "spec" to bolster the garbage they had thrown at customers.

As far as out of the box guns go I would take KAC over any other factory produced rifle out there.
Yes - Fit and Finish is better
Yes - They are more accurate
Yes - KAC is a Name that you will pay more for, but so is ARMS and Leupold...

Link Posted: 12/31/2002 9:05:36 PM EDT
I'm sorry, thats not good enough. I want to hear from someone who has used both and can tell me that Bushmaster or RRA are less accurate that KAC.
View Quote

Okay then in ENGLISH then
Yes I have shot all of them...

I am a fair to good shot.
I can get sub MOA prone from AR15 types, and have repeatedly gotten under .25MOA with my Jerry Rice built Remington 700 .308.................

lastly look what Wes posted


KAC M4 RAS $310

View Quote


Link Posted: 12/31/2002 11:25:43 PM EDT
I'm not sure Camp Perry would be the best place to look for a Knights gun, but I may be wrong. I used to think the Knights gun was just too much money, that is, until I figured in all the accessories it came with.
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 5:55:35 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/1/2003 5:56:33 AM EDT by coldblue]
"...Please forgive me but what does Eugene Stoner have to do with the KAC rifles?..."[/quote]

Before he died in 1997, Mr. Stoner was a member of our (Knight's) R&D and engineering staff.  For example, the 7.62mm SR-25 had been one of his dreams for many years, as he had originally designed the 7.62mm AR-10 and 5.56mm M16 family of weapons more than 30 years prior.  His association with us at Knight's in the early 90's produced that "SR-25" rifle, which has now matured into the Navy SEAL Mk11 Mod 0 Sniper Rifle System.  Note also that the basic rifle (100's of them) from this package is also issued to elite US Army units as well, its just not marked Mk11 Mod 0.
Our SR-15 (the 15 designating 5.56mm cal. in a semi-only gun) Match rifle was another of his ideas, sort of a "smaller SR-25".  That is why the first ones had the same black fiberglass handguard of the SR-25.  So our (Knight's) entry into the 5.56 commercial market had the advantage of having the original designer/inventor of the 5.56mm M16 system at the helm. I mean one of the reasons Colt used to build the best AR's was that Mr. Stoner helped educate them back in the Viet-Nam era.
All of your other makers of AR's today are making "copies" based on their "reverse engineering" or using Colt or Government drawings to duplicate their parts.  Well let me tell you, "it ain't all on the blueprints".  You have to understand how everything works together--not just the parts themselves--but the tolerances and how they "stack".
During Viet-Nam, Colt learned the "sweet zones" in the tolerance ranges that the prints don't provide.  So they were able to produce thousands of functional rifles per week. When the Army provided the update M16A2 blueprint package to FN for the M16A2's to be built in South Carolina back in 1988 or so,  those guns initially produced did not function well at all.  In fact they failed First Article at Aberdeen Proving Ground.  Then they had a problem with the trigger that allowed the gun to fire "upon release of the trigger", even though all the parts were proven to meet their blueprint requirements.
So if a world class gun company like FN had a problem producing M16 part sets that functioned well together, how well do smaller company's do it?
So you might say "Knight's had it easy because Mr. Stoner helped them", well duh...we were the only company in the later 20th century that did have his expertise!  I mean why do you think Colt is having so amny problems over the last 10 years?  Well, all the original crew (like Mr. Rob Roy) are in small arms heaven popping caps on the firing line alongside Mr. Stoner.  
ColdBlue sends...
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 6:44:04 AM EDT
Link Posted: 1/1/2003 3:43:06 PM EDT
Gotta agree with Wes, nice gett'n the skinny from Dave. Thanks for the insight.
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 9:07:30 AM EDT
Can anyone point me to some detailed photos of a KAC gun online?
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 10:20:56 AM EDT

Any chance you have a pic of your SR-25 carbine?

I once ran across one of the original preban (1 or 100, right?) SR-25's on the EE here.  I had thought I saved the photo but now can't find it.  I just about crapped myself over that rifle.  A preban 7.62 AR series carbine with a collapsable stock.  Drooooool....  But I think that it was priced at around $8K IIRC.

Well, I've been saying recently that when the Krime Bill goes buh-bye (w/o a replacement), the first rifle that I get is not going to be an AR15 but an AR10 series carbine.  After reading the info posted here, KAC will be my first choice.

I always manage to find ways to talk myself into the really expensive stuff (and you all don't help!).  Now all I have to do it find a way to convince my wife of the same.  Looks like I have 620:11:53:45 to work on her.  [url]www.awbansunset.com[/url]  [:D]

Link Posted: 1/2/2003 10:38:32 AM EDT
[img]http://davkenrem.net/sr-25kscan.jpg [/img]
[img]http://davkenrem.net/sr25k.jpg [/img]
[img]http://davkenrem.net/stokes.jpeg [/img]
Ask and you shall recieve
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 11:26:27 AM EDT
If you get the KAC you get to pay $400 for the COOL KAC LOGO!!!

Otherise Bushmaster (with an A-2 look FH) is the same quality.

RRA makes a nice upper (sold here by Pete in NH) with the A-2 birdcage post-legal but I don't recall wether or not it was Chrome lined - I'm guessing not but why chrome line a semi-auto?
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 12:02:05 PM EDT
Originally Posted By davkenrem:
[url]http://davkenrem.net/sr-25kscan.jpg [/url]
[url]http://davkenrem.net/sr25k.jpg [/url]
[url]http://davkenrem.net/stokes.jpeg [/url]
Ask and you shall recieve
View Quote

Yup, that's the one!  (Well, 1 of 100. [;)])

Someday I'll have one, but at $8K I'll have a Class III first.  We'll see when/if the Krime Bill disappears.

Thanks for posting those pics.  Wow.  I can hear guitars wailing in the background....  [:D]
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 12:17:27 PM EDT
Originally Posted By Green0:
If you get the KAC you get to pay $400 for the COOL KAC LOGO!!!
View Quote

So you missed that it comes with $700+ worth of RAS, match trigger and back up irons?

I actually think its a hell of a deal for a post ban gun of that quality.

Link Posted: 1/2/2003 12:20:25 PM EDT
Corey- No Prob on the pics. I have a huge collection of AR pics.
Are you a Drill instructor?
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 1:03:31 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2003 1:09:18 PM EDT by Corey]
Originally Posted By davkenrem:
Corey- No Prob on the pics. I have a huge collection of AR pics.
Are you a Drill instructor?
View Quote

Drill [b]Sergeant[/b].  [:D]  (Isn't DI Marines?)  And "was."  I discharged (honorably I might add) in 1996.

I was in an Army Reserve Training unit, and wore the patch and hat for about two years, including pushing Basic troops at the same base I did BT/AIT at.  I had a 6 year active plus 2 year inactive reserve hitch.  Which meant I went from E-1 to E-5 with the qualification in about 4 years (I'd have to check my files for the exact dates, but this is pretty close).  Our unit was really good about getting people experience, to the schools, and promoted quickly.  EDITED to add that things [i]really[/i] went fast for me due to Desert Storm -- my unit deployed and I went to Drill School.

You only wear the hat when you're actively assigned as a DS, but the patch stays with you.  Which is why I think it's outstanding to see an officer wearing it.

Congrats.  I'm not sure if anyone else ID'd it since I put it up over a week ago. [beer]
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 2:43:00 PM EDT
Your Right, Drill sergeant, It's been 20 yrs this year since I was an 11BrAvo, but I sur remember that badge.
Link Posted: 1/2/2003 6:44:13 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 1/2/2003 6:52:09 PM EDT by Corey]
13B myself (artillery).

And now that I'm home, I'm going to steal those photos and put them somewhere that I can find them next time I'm daydreaming.  [;)]

Just imagine how the angular upper would look with a SOCOM stock.  Awe man, I've got too long to wait for one of these to be thinkin' like this....

Thanks again.

EDITED to fix typos.
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 10:10:47 AM EDT
Hey Wes;

Not to be disrespectful, or argumentative on your points, but...

Why is it that you always type in all caps? Inquiring minds want to know.
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 1:51:09 PM EDT

He has been doing it for years[%|]

In emails as well, none of us can get him to change [;)]


I have learned to expect it.
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 4:52:42 PM EDT
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 9:02:49 PM EDT
hahahahahahahahahaha! Good answer!
Link Posted: 1/4/2003 10:15:29 PM EDT
I put up with it because I would rather he waste time building my uppers rather than on keyboard semantics...Those who ask him to use lowercase - NO UPPER FOR YOU!    [;D]
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