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Posted: 11/9/2007 4:52:51 AM EDT
Looking through the photo section I came across another company doing billet lowers.

www.smosarms.com/index.htm
Link Posted: 11/9/2007 1:44:16 PM EDT
Thanks, that thing looks pretty nice.
Link Posted: 11/9/2007 2:26:25 PM EDT
I like how they shamlessly copied the Magpul trigger guard.
Link Posted: 11/9/2007 2:35:19 PM EDT

Quoted:
I like how they shamlessly copied the Magpul trigger guard.


well.. POF has the same..
Link Posted: 11/9/2007 2:39:15 PM EDT
i like how they actually have something to sell
Link Posted: 11/9/2007 2:57:31 PM EDT

Quoted:

Quoted:
I like how they shamlessly copied the Magpul trigger guard.


well.. POF has the same..








Two of these triggerguards are the same and the other is different.  Can you tell which one is which?



No part of the POF triggerguard follows the lines of the magwell.
Link Posted: 11/9/2007 6:19:22 PM EDT

Quoted:
i like how they actually have something to sell

LOL
Link Posted: 11/9/2007 6:29:43 PM EDT

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:
I like how they shamlessly copied the Magpul trigger guard.


well.. POF has the same..


rds.yahoo.com/_ylt=A9G_RtiJ8jRHfxUASyWjzbkF/SIG=122menlmi/EXP=1194738697/**http%3A//pof-usa.com/P-415%2520GEN%2520III65.JPG

www.magpul.com/pics/lower04.jpg

www.smosarms.com/SM-15pf1-600.jpg

Two of these triggerguards are the same and the other is different.  Can you tell which one is which?



No part of the POF triggerguard follows the lines of the magwell.


Last lower says purple foxes?

-Foxxz
Link Posted: 11/9/2007 6:51:59 PM EDT
Shit, their awfully proud of 'em aren't they?
Link Posted: 11/9/2007 7:10:40 PM EDT
Yeaaaaahhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's the cheaper alternative so many tight-assed, intellectual property ignoring dorks in the Magpul thread have been begging for.

Maybe now, all those folks who threw such hysterical fits over the price-point of the Magpul lower will have an alternative worthy enough for their FakeCOGS and Clonepoints.
Link Posted: 11/9/2007 7:19:38 PM EDT

Quoted:
Yeaaaaahhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's the cheaper alternative so many tight-assed, intellectual property ignoring dorks in the Magpul thread have been begging for.

Maybe now, all those folks who threw such hysterical fits over the price-point of the Magpul lower will have an alternative worthy enough for their FakeCOGS and Clonepoints.


That's funny as hell right there.
Link Posted: 11/9/2007 9:14:58 PM EDT

Quoted:
Yeaaaaahhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's the cheaper alternative so many tight-assed, intellectual property ignoring dorks in the Magpul thread have been begging for.

Maybe now, all those folks who threw such hysterical fits over the price-point of the Magpul lower will have an alternative worthy enough for their FakeCOGS and Clonepoints.


Ain't that the truth...
Link Posted: 11/10/2007 5:52:13 AM EDT
The purple fox engraving was just a custom one done for a customer I believe.  They can engrave anything you like I guess.  I think the lower comes blank on that side just like any other lower.

I was waiting for the Magpul shitstorm to start..... didn't take too long.
Link Posted: 11/10/2007 7:57:33 AM EDT
Maybe it's just me but I not sold on the so called advantages of billet receivers, especially billet lower receivers.

Personally, I'd rather have two forged recievers for the price this one is selling for.

Don't get me worng, everyone is free to get what they want and I don't really care what anyone else gets.  I just don't see the upside, other than looks, for paying double the price of forged recievers.
Link Posted: 11/10/2007 8:02:29 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/10/2007 8:12:51 AM EDT
The lower without a magwell, for use on bolt action 50bmg uppers, looks interesting.

Link Posted: 11/10/2007 8:34:06 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/10/2007 8:44:04 AM EDT

Quoted:
I just got an email from the designer of the lower and he was unaware of the Magpul lower's existance.

I'll bet he was aware of your Enhanced Trigger Guard. It's a shame he used the exact same shape and style for his lowers...

Link Posted: 11/10/2007 8:47:46 AM EDT
Other than the similar contour of the trigger guard, I can see many differences between the MagPul lower and SMOS lower.

Folks, it is possible for two different companies to design a similar item without knowledge of of each others product.

However, when it comes to the AR mfg game, I find it hard to believe that SMOS says that they are unaware of MagPul's lower receiver design "features".


bigcraig
Link Posted: 11/10/2007 12:17:21 PM EDT

Quoted:
Maybe it's just me but I not sold on the so called advantages of billet receivers, especially billet lower receivers.

Personally, I'd rather have two forged recievers for the price this one is selling for.

Don't get me worng, everyone is free to get what they want and I don't really care what anyone else gets.  I just don't see the upside, other than looks, for paying double the price of forged recievers.


The benefit of billet is that a manufacturer can have small (1000 pieces or less) lots of lowers with specific mods done (IE: the MagPul and POF) without dropping down the small fortune for custom forging dies. I threw up in my mouth when I got the quote on dies for the lowers myself and a fellow ARFCommer wanted to have done. Amortizing that kind of cost would have been one hellish nightmare.

Anyhow, if MagPul decides to forge lowers in the future, I'll buy those. Until then, I'll just pick up a few billet ones when they become available.

ETA: Don't mistake the above to mean that billet stuff is cheap... It's still as expensive as hell to have low production stuff made, especially in the long term.
Link Posted: 11/10/2007 12:33:53 PM EDT
the purple fox is a signature of a unit of the marines. thats the best thing about billet ,and a small company is the customization factor and the quality of work.
Link Posted: 11/10/2007 12:55:34 PM EDT

Quoted:
It's the cheaper alternative so many tight-assed, intellectual property ignoring dorks in the Magpul thread have been begging for.


What intellectual property are you talking about?  The magpul trigger guard I've seen didn't have a patent number, so this is an intellectual property issue how?
Link Posted: 11/10/2007 1:59:38 PM EDT
Link Posted: 11/10/2007 2:05:27 PM EDT

Quoted:
For those who want the Magpul lower I will go againt our policy of releasing dates by saying we plan on lowers being shipped this month. No other details.


Outstanding.
Link Posted: 11/10/2007 3:11:25 PM EDT

Quoted:

Quoted:
Maybe it's just me but I not sold on the so called advantages of billet receivers, especially billet lower receivers.

Personally, I'd rather have two forged recievers for the price this one is selling for.

Don't get me worng, everyone is free to get what they want and I don't really care what anyone else gets.  I just don't see the upside, other than looks, for paying double the price of forged recievers.


The benefit of billet is that a manufacturer can have small (1000 pieces or less) lots of lowers with specific mods done (IE: the MagPul and POF) without dropping down the small fortune for custom forging dies. I threw up in my mouth when I got the quote on dies for the lowers myself and a fellow ARFCommer wanted to have done. Amortizing that kind of cost would have been one hellish nightmare.

Anyhow, if MagPul decides to forge lowers in the future, I'll buy those. Until then, I'll just pick up a few billet ones when they become available.

ETA: Don't mistake the above to mean that billet stuff is cheap... It's still as expensive as hell to have low production stuff made, especially in the long term.


Capn,

I get what you are saying about the cost of the forging dies.

Maybe I'm missing something, but IMHO, there are many companies who already make AR receiver forging blanks so unless you want something unique there is no reason to purchase the dies and forge the receivers yourself.  What we need are more companies who can machine these forgings the right way consistently everytime.

I think a machine shop like LaRue could make a killing with precision made forged receivers.  They can get the forgings from another company and then do what they do best...precise and accurate machining!
Link Posted: 11/10/2007 6:07:39 PM EDT

Quoted:
Yeaaaaahhhhh!!!!!!!!!!!!

It's the cheaper alternative so many tight-assed, intellectual property ignoring dorks in the Magpul thread have been begging for.

Maybe now, all those folks who threw such hysterical fits over the price-point of the Magpul lower will have an alternative worthy enough for their FakeCOGS and Clonepoints.


what he said

BTW has antone got one yet?


Mike
Link Posted: 11/10/2007 10:06:56 PM EDT

Quoted:

Capn,

I get what you are saying about the cost of the forging dies.

Maybe I'm missing something, but IMHO, there are many companies who already make AR receiver forging blanks so unless you want something unique there is no reason to purchase the dies and forge the receivers yourself.  What we need are more companies who can machine these forgings the right way consistently everytime.

I think a machine shop like LaRue could make a killing with precision made forged receivers.  They can get the forgings from another company and then do what they do best...precise and accurate machining!


Agreed on all accounts

As an aside, I've picked up an OA small parts kit for use on my MagPul lower, and I'm just waiting on the Giesselle SSA triggers to hit the market. I'll throw the beast together and shoot some pics once the boys at MP start shipping.
Link Posted: 11/11/2007 5:25:34 AM EDT

Quoted:

I think a machine shop like LaRue could make a killing with precision made forged receivers.  They can get the forgings from another company and then do what they do best...precise and accurate machining!


The advantage of a CNC machined billet lower is that you don't have to rely on another company to provide you with forgings.

Link Posted: 11/11/2007 6:23:28 AM EDT

Quoted:


The advantage of a CNC machined billet lower is that you don't have to rely on another company to provide you with forgings.



This is true but the extensive machining compared to starting with a forged blank is what drives up the cost of the final product...
Link Posted: 11/11/2007 6:52:50 AM EDT

Quoted:

Quoted:


The advantage of a CNC machined billet lower is that you don't have to rely on another company to provide you with forgings.



This is true but the extensive machining compared to starting with a forged blank is what drives up the cost of the final product...


Not really. Sun Devils are priced competitivly with high end forged lowers such as Noveske, Saber, Mega and Rock River. I suspect that if you CNC'ed a lower from billet and didn't hold the tollerences any tighter than a typical lower end forged unit they could be produced for under $110 each.

The problem with that is most people/companies that pay the costs to purchase or lease a high end CNC machining center aren't really interested in turning out low end products.

Link Posted: 11/11/2007 7:22:16 AM EDT

Quoted:

Quoted:

Quoted:


The advantage of a CNC machined billet lower is that you don't have to rely on another company to provide you with forgings.



This is true but the extensive machining compared to starting with a forged blank is what drives up the cost of the final product...


Not really. Sun Devils are priced competitivly with high end forged lowers such as Noveske, Saber, Mega and Rock River. I suspect that if you CNC'ed a lower from billet and didn't hold the tollerences any tighter than a typical lower end forged unit they could be produced for under $110 each.

The problem with that is most people/companies that pay the costs to purchase or lease a high end CNC machining center aren't really interested in turning out low end products.



The Sun Devils are cheaper because they use 6061 T6 instead of 7075 T6 .  This is why the billet lowers made with 7075 T6, which is what the forged lowers are made out of, cost a lot more than the Sun Devil lowers.

Sun Devil chose 6061 due to the cost savings and also because it is easier machine than 7075.  They were then able to pass down the cost savings to the end user.  Don't get me wrong 6061 T6 works well enough for lower receivers but personally I won't pay more for a lower made with a lesser material when forged 7075 T6 lowers can be had for less money.

Also, it would not make sense to make "lower tolarance" billet recievers because the same amount of work would go into making it as when making "higher tolarance" receivers.
Link Posted: 11/11/2007 7:48:48 AM EDT

Quoted:

The Sun Devils are cheaper because they use 6061 T6 instead of 7075 T6 .  This is why the billet lowers made with 7075 T6, which is what the forged lowers are made out of, cost a lot more than the Sun Devil lowers.


A receiver sized piece of 7075 does not cost $100 more than a the same sized piece of 6061. The difference is more in the area of $40.


Also, it would not make sense to make "lower tolarance" billet recievers because the same amount of work would go into making it as when making "higher tolarance" receivers.


Not correct at all. Take the trigger housing area inside the lower for example, I have seen lowers that looked like one cutter was used to plunge cut the area and cut it to spec in one pass. If you want to hold that area to a .0005 or better tollerence you are going to plunge the area with one cutter, change to another to bring it to within one or two thousandths and then use a third to cut it to your final target spec. thats three tools, three tool changes and four or five times the time. Holding to less that .0001 is never the same work and time as holding to more than a couple thousandths.
Link Posted: 11/11/2007 8:00:31 AM EDT

Quoted:


A receiver sized piece of 7075 does not cost $100 more than a the same sized piece of 6061. The difference is more in the area of $40.


Don't forget the 7075 is harder to machine so you also have to take this into account when setting the price for the product.  It's obvious by the price difference of the 7075  billet receivers that the cost of the material is just one factor in it.


Not correct at all. Take the trigger housing area inside the lower for example, I have seen lowers that looked like one cutter was used to plunge cut the area and cut it to spec in one pass. If you want to hold that area to a .0005 or better tollerence you are going to plunge the area with one cutter, change to another to bring it to within one or two thousandths and then use a third to cut it to your final target spec. thats three tools, three tool changes and four or five times the time. Holding to less that .0001 is never the same work and time as holding to more than a couple thousandths.


Still, if this was done the billet receivers would the loose only real edge they have over the forged receivers and the "lower tolerance" billet receivers would still require a lot more machining than the forged ones.  

Rather than loweriing the quality of work it would make much more sense to start with a forged receiver blank if one wanted to save machining time.

Also, who is going to want to buy "low tolarance" billet receivers when the major reason for choosing billet over forged receivers is the better tolerances?
Link Posted: 11/11/2007 12:57:06 PM EDT

Quoted:

Still, if this was done the billet receivers would the loose only real edge they have over the forged receivers and the "lower tolerance" billet receivers would still require a lot more machining than the forged ones.


It's true more machinig would be required. The question would be would that time cost less than the forgings you're buying from the forge houses.


Also, who is going to want to buy "low tolarance" billet receivers when the major reason for choosing billet over forged receivers is the better tolerances?


The same guys who buy NC Star scopes? I have no doubt that if Sun Devil offered a lower tollerence billet receiver in the $100 price range (6061) they would sell all they could make.
Link Posted: 11/11/2007 1:18:37 PM EDT

Quoted:

For those who want the Magpul lower I will go againt our policy of releasing dates by saying we plan on lowers being shipped this month. No other details.


Good for you guys. Thanks for forging ahead with excellent products. I look forward to seeing the new lower.
Link Posted: 11/11/2007 3:07:52 PM EDT

Quoted:
Good for you guys. Thanks for forging ahead with excellent products. I look forward to seeing the new lower.


Billeting ahead!
Link Posted: 11/11/2007 3:29:28 PM EDT
They'll all be for sale 'cheap' when Masada hits town

imo

.......including mine
Link Posted: 11/12/2007 7:15:28 AM EDT
seems no one is talking about the custom engraving?personally thats the part that sets them apart for me...
Link Posted: 11/12/2007 8:08:29 AM EDT

Quoted:
seems no one is talking about the custom engraving?personally thats the part that sets them apart for me...


Ya I am guessing if you plan on making it a SBR you can have them engrave it before they ship it out to you.  That would save a lot of time and effort instead of doing it after the fact.
Link Posted: 11/12/2007 12:19:16 PM EDT
was looking at the photos of the magpul compared to the smosarms lower. to me there is noticeable differences.the magpul looks square front and back,the smosarms lower is clearly round front and back.also the bottom of the triggergaurd on the smos looks to taper significantly ,and the magpul looks much more square.there is certainly some similarities but i think if you look close they are definitely not the same?
Link Posted: 11/12/2007 12:38:16 PM EDT

Quoted:

Ya I am guessing if you plan on making it a SBR you can have them engrave it before they ship it out to you.  That would save a lot of time and effort instead of doing it after the fact.


Outstanding observation. I hadn't even considered that.
Link Posted: 11/14/2007 7:36:07 AM EDT
just thought someone should put a different perspective on it.  i have a lower from these guys they seem honest enough to me.i certainly dont think they saw the magpul lower and said man we should copy it.we are talking about a trigger gaurd. how different can they be?
Link Posted: 11/14/2007 9:58:50 AM EDT
Link Posted: 11/14/2007 10:19:27 AM EDT

Quoted:

Quoted:
just thought someone should put a different perspective on it.  i have a lower from these guys they seem honest enough to me.i certainly dont think they saw the magpul lower and said man we should copy it.we are talking about a trigger gaurd. how different can they be?


I have spoken with the designer of the lower and he is a very rational and in no way copied our lower, he was just thinking along the same lines.

He set about to design a unique lower and now he has discovered that it wasn't unique as he first thought. For this reason he will be making some minor styling changes to set his lower off from the Magpul lower. I for one was floored by this response as we did not even ask for this. Design for design sake, wow that is refresing.

I will go on record in saying I like these guys and will support them as much as I can.

I'm absolutely floored by the respect and integrity you and the other manufacturer have. The fact he's changing his lowers and you're not making a soap opera out of it like 95% of all the other manufacturers here would speaks volumes about the both of your companies.
Link Posted: 11/14/2007 10:37:38 AM EDT
Damn, Colt would have thrown at least 42 different lawyers at their front door.
Link Posted: 11/14/2007 11:07:23 AM EDT
"It's funny because it's true" ...Homer Simpson
Link Posted: 11/17/2007 10:32:01 AM EDT
Another nice feature I see in their gallery pics is some extra material left in place below the forward pin-pivot ears to act as a gusset for added strength.

I know, I know, it's not necessary (I've never heard a firsthand account of a lower failing in that area), but it's nice that, like Magpul, another company is looking for minor ways to improve on the standard design without affecting parts compatibility.
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 12:34:59 PM EDT
Here are a couple renderings of the reworked trigger guard that is going into production now. It keeps the same contour feature as before but the profile view has been changed to avoid any confusion with the Magpul trigger guard.

http://www.smosarms.com/SM-15_ntg_1.jpg
http://www.smosarms.com/SM-15_ntg_2.jpg
Link Posted: 11/29/2007 2:11:15 PM EDT
NICE!!!!! I like the large bevel on the magwell.

PursuitSS
Link Posted: 11/30/2007 11:19:19 AM EDT
 Those lowers look great. I like the enlarged magwell. Now if I can just convince the wife that I really need another AR...
Link Posted: 11/30/2007 1:53:39 PM EDT
I think this whole exchange is a beautiful example of how things SHOULD work. Kudos to MagPul and SMOS.
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