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Posted: 7/21/2008 11:06:50 PM EDT
[#1]
Yeah on my MK12 Mod 0 build.
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Posted: 7/21/2008 11:47:35 PM EDT
[#2]
I didn't know the Marines were phasing out the M16A4?
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Posted: 7/21/2008 11:54:32 PM EDT
[#3]
I do not mind the short M4 style collapsabile stock but it fels loose and cheesy for the most part.I have it in my go case a Woodstream 33" hard case that it fits great into
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Posted: 7/22/2008 1:45:35 AM EDT
[#4]
They are not. Someone has been reading too many spy novels. |
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Posted: 7/22/2008 2:08:28 AM EDT
[#5]
Not going to happen anytime soon. The USAMU will be using it until the platform is replaced. And the rules of competetion change. Currently, you have the choice, A1 or A2.
Plus the A2 buttstock makes the bayonet so much more effective.  Buttstroke to the head!
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Posted: 7/22/2008 3:51:05 AM EDT
[#6]
It is useless for me and way to long for 90% of people.
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Posted: 7/22/2008 4:55:35 AM EDT
[#7]
I like A2 stocks but they're still too short so I use them with the DPMS 1" extension.
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Posted: 7/22/2008 5:11:47 AM EDT
[#8]
I'm not .mil, but have tried on current issue USMC armor when a friend was home on leave. It's a JOKE with an A2 stock. Sure you could get used to it, but an adjustable is so much better.
An A1 length is perfect for me in prone. But with armor?...No fucking way. |
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Posted: 7/22/2008 5:17:14 AM EDT
[#9]
too long? last time I had my rifles side by side my CTR fully extended was longer than my A2...YMMV |
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Posted: 7/22/2008 5:35:06 AM EDT
[#10]
Not in Weptek911's armory. Send them here !
 But someone in body armor ? Yes. I remember pics of Troops/Marines with their rifles sideways, stocks over the top of their shoulders to clear their armor on house to house combat. M4 stock is definitely the way to go. I just hope the uppers and stocks are allowed to hit the suplus market like all the M16A1 upper take offs were. |
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Posted: 7/22/2008 6:36:06 AM EDT
[#11]
Joguwa86
As far as I'm concerned..... no... Having a fixed stock is like having a fixed carry handle.... just limits your options. and the A1 or A2 stocks were always to long for me, regardless if I had armor on or a T-shirt. You can have them... I'll take adjustable any day of the week. |
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Posted: 7/22/2008 6:37:28 AM EDT
[#12]
WTF kind of sense is that supposed to make? Why would you only use it fully extended? The collapsible stocks give you options. The A2 has no options. I've never seen anyone who shoots in a proper combat stance and is not the size of an NBA power forward that is comfortable with an A2 stock. I've got abuddy who is 6-7" and even he doesn't use his M4 stock fully extended. |
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Posted: 7/22/2008 6:41:57 AM EDT
[#13]
Sounds almost like the Indoor Ready Position. The A2 is okay, its not ideal but okay. On a DMR, an A1 or Sully might be best. |
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Posted: 7/22/2008 6:44:39 AM EDT
[#14]
The Sully is the only fixed stock I would put on one of my carbines. It's designed for fighting rifles by a guy who knows how to fight with a rifle. I think the A1 and A2 were designed by engineers sitting at a bench. 
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Posted: 7/22/2008 6:49:52 AM EDT
[#15]
Dude, calm down. I like a Rifle as much as the next rifle enthusiast. BUT, I will say a collapsible stock is a better thing, especially if you got heavy clothes on or of course armour. But it took me a while to get used to it. Some people may be more comfortable with a fixed because that's what they're used to.
I don't know what you're getting so riled up about. |
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Posted: 7/22/2008 6:57:04 AM EDT
[#16]
A2 ain't going anywhere....get used to it !
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Posted: 7/22/2008 7:22:56 AM EDT
[#17]
Shaq, is that you?
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Posted: 7/22/2008 7:35:15 AM EDT
[#18]
a2 is here for a while heck there are still many who prefer the a1 it is not gone.
Fixed stocks while not tacticool, are sturdy and aid in better marksmanship. The a2 is a good stock I prefer the a1 both offer better cheek weld than telestocks. |
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Posted: 7/22/2008 7:39:02 AM EDT
[#19]
Yeah, nothing helps marksmanship like having to cant the rifle or run the stock over the top of your sholder There are zero positive features to the A2 stock when you are talking about gunfighting. Armor makes it too long for the user to correctly use the sights. |
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Posted: 7/22/2008 7:47:24 AM EDT
[#20]
Gee, that's funny.. Scores on qual ranges with troops using M-4's with M68's are much higher then troops shooting A2's with Irons... |
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Posted: 7/22/2008 8:06:11 AM EDT
[#21]
Could that be in part due to the Aimpoint ! Having said that all but 2 of my stocks are adj. The other 2 are A-1s.
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Posted: 7/22/2008 8:27:37 AM EDT
[#22]
All depends on who you talk to. I'm one of the dinasoars that grew up with the A2 stock, learned to live with it, like it's rugedness and you KNOW where your cleaning gear is going to be. The kids that I refer to as the pepsi generation tend to prefer the M4 stocks. Yes, they can be adjusted to midgets or armored up human tanks but you loose your ruggedness as well as where is your cleaning gear being carried these days. No, having used both the M-4 and the long gun both on the range as well as in combat, I'd take the A2 over the M-4 any day...then again I'm old.
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Posted: 7/22/2008 8:39:19 AM EDT
[#23]
Maybe that has more to do with the type of sights they were trained with and the quality of the training. |
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Posted: 7/22/2008 8:46:31 AM EDT
[#24]
It really depends on your usage. I love how guys in here are on and on about how the A2 is useless in body armor. Listen, you and I both know most of these guy's dont own body armor, wouldn't know how to strap on body armor and furthermore will NEVER have any use for or need of body armor whether sitting in their cubicles at work or on their lazy boy at home. In an urban combat situation (something the tacticool guys jerk off thinking about but will never be involved in) a shorter stock is preferred for easier room clearing. But tell me, how many in here will ever see that situation? Yup, that's right. So why would a civilian shooting from a bench or playing in a non armored carbine course feel the need to proclaim useless the A2 while going on and on about armor he has never worn, will never wear and certainly never need?
Personally, I will keep an A2 on my at home rifle because if I am clearing my home in the middle of the night over a noise I think I might have heard and a guy pops out beside me.....he is going to get a Marine Corps buttstroke to the jaw while I back off a few feet. I want that buttstroke to break his jaw not my stock. His pain will be cut short shortly thereafter but the point is I want a solid stock on a rifle I might be forced to fight unarmored with. The Marines spent some time making sure I knew how to smack someone around with the butt of a rifle....I prefer to have that ability as it gives me two weapons instead of one...and a buttstroke is often very effective since bad guy is fully and completely focused on keeping that muzzle pointed away from him. The rifle could jam, he might be too close, there could be more than one of them...god only knows but if I have to hit someone with that stock......A2 for me. |
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Posted: 7/22/2008 9:03:17 AM EDT
[#25]
Collapsibles are the way to go. A good adjustable buttstock is still sturdy enough to knok someone out with.
Personally I dont see much use for the M16A4 anymore. I carry one and it does get the job done, but an M4 is much more useable. And if I need to reach out and touch someone, thats what the MK12 mod 0 is for. (which to my knowledge actually uses the A1 buttstock - though I'm pretty sure I've seen a few with VLTOR modstocks) |
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Posted: 7/22/2008 9:07:05 AM EDT
[#26]
Body armor hell, it's useless with a t-shirt if you want to use it in any sort of combat stance. Show me a picture of a guy in a combat stance shooting nose to charging handle with an A2 stock. |
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Posted: 7/22/2008 9:19:04 AM EDT
[#27]
I think alot depends on your shooting style, size (arm length ) etc. I dont shoot ntch so that's a non issue for me. I dont own , nor will probably never own body armor. If a bump in the night occurs it will be investigated 1911 in hand. The long guns are more static position guns for me inside the home. Other side of the bed waiting or at the bedroom door looking down the hallway. Outside in the winter with heavy clothing is something else.
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Posted: 7/22/2008 9:21:33 AM EDT
[#28]
Wow, good thing everyone in combat prior to the Xbox generation didn't realize their rifles were useless...we might be speaking Somali or Vietnamese. To each his own...god knows you can't hit squat unless your nose is sitting on a charging handle. Oh my god, is that idiot using body armor and a solid stock???? He clearly is dead by now... http://patdollard.com/wp-content/uploads/am16marine.jpg Here is another guy clearly about to be zipped into a body bag....that is the special lightweight T-shirt thickness body armor he is wearing too. http://www.specialforcesweapons.com/shop/logos/m16a2_iraq_480_0711_ec7_0801_b20.jpg |
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Posted: 7/22/2008 9:49:21 AM EDT
[#29]
Quite true. Never underestimate the impact of a well executed buttstroke. |
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Posted: 7/22/2008 9:50:26 AM EDT
[#30]
That is the most uncouth thing I have read on this board in a while. |
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Posted: 7/22/2008 9:58:00 AM EDT
[#31]
the point was quite simple actually...the A2 isn't the longest. ...and for the record I'm a hair under 6' and have plenty of experience with M16-A4's and E SAPI plates and everything else that goes along with the outfit and seemed to do just fine, however...as stated last time...YMMV
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Posted: 7/22/2008 10:00:07 AM EDT
[#32]
NTCH - is not a rule, its a tip. |
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Posted: 7/22/2008 10:02:38 AM EDT
[#33]
He was using hyperbole and I get his point completely. Why is it that you're a complete idiot if your shoulders aren't completely squared off to the target. In my opinion, you don't always shoot like that in combat either. What if you have to shoot around corners? Or other weird positions. That is a bad example triburst because any awkward positions that may need to be used you may not have your NTCH. That being said, I prefer a collapsible on the 3rd hole out. It's a little shorter than the A1. If I had to have a fixed an A1 would be better than the A2. But if you're shooting prone with just a tshirt. An A2 is just fine. I realize that is not necessarily the only place you'll shoot. But it may be one. If my collapsible is too far collapsed and I kneel down or go prone, my face is hanging over the side. Nose forward of the charging handle. Which isn't all that great of a position, IMHO. There is no perfect length for all positions and different people. A tele stock at least lets you adjust as needed. That's my rant. |
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Posted: 7/22/2008 10:07:14 AM EDT
[#34]
The guys in the first pic are using optics with a long eye relief and the second guy has got his face away from the sights aparently scanning for threats or posing for the pic. |
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Posted: 7/22/2008 10:12:54 AM EDT
[#35]
Your post describes exactly what I'm saying. The tele stock gives you options for diiferent shooters, different clothing/gear/rmor, and different shooting positions. The A2 gives you one length which is too long for 95% of shooting. The Marine Corps are still issuing the A2 and every picture I see of a Marine in combat the guys are having to short stock the weapon or shoot from an awkward stance. Of course the Marines are still redesigning the bayonet... |
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Posted: 7/22/2008 10:15:05 AM EDT
[#36]
For me, fixed stocks of any length are not as useful as adjustable* stocks. You can set it for the situation..ie-seasonal clothes, position (prone- sitting- standing), body armor, size of person, and storage.
*Collapsible stocks are the 2-position seen on the 600 series M-16 carbines in Vietnam. ETA/ damn...2min 10seconds late |
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Posted: 7/22/2008 10:15:13 AM EDT
[#37]
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Posted: 7/22/2008 10:18:34 AM EDT
[#38]
ok now your not making sense, the Marine with the RCO is not utilizing the long eye relief, the optic is till mounted in a normal position, not way up or way back. the Marine in the second pic may just like a smaller sight picture (making the the rear aperture smaller is a technique taught to us for engaging targets at greater distances) I will agree that it is harder inside of a building with an A2 stock and dont forget once you recieve contact half if not most of the proper rifle shooting methods go out the window. |
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Posted: 7/22/2008 10:26:51 AM EDT
[#39]
What are you, a 3 foot tall hobit? I agree that with body armor it is a bitch. But honestly, most members here just blast paper and really havent a need for half the crap they buy to wear or mount to there rifles. I live in NY where we cant have a tele stock unless you pin it. To avoid the stares at the range I have stayed with the A2. Our AR's at work have the tele stock and even then I role with it fully extended. |
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Posted: 7/22/2008 10:32:21 AM EDT
[#40]
I'm glad to see someone is paying attention in this goofy thread. It's a moot topic. Ford vs. Chevy... Red Sox vs. Spankees... It's all personal preference. I've got ape arms and love the A2 stock. Even when I had on armor and backpack straps and all sorts of other stuff, it still felt fine. It is a rifle stock. If you want a more compact carbine, then use a collapsible stock. hock.gif ZOMG!! As far as the weekend warriors preaching about clearing rooms.... well any decent Marine/soldier would be in at least a buddy team, and the two, or more, of them could probably get the job done just fine with rusty toothbrushes. You shouldn't badmouth something that serves a proper purpose in its proper environment. my 2 cents... (which are only worth about 1.5 cents in today's economy |
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Posted: 7/22/2008 10:36:32 AM EDT
[#41]
+1 and Amen |
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Posted: 7/22/2008 10:44:31 AM EDT
[#42]
I have friends who came back from the sand box in a body bag from both GW1 and GW2. He can stick the hyperbole up his ass and show a little respect. |
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Posted: 7/22/2008 10:51:03 AM EDT
[#43]
If you grew up on the A2 (1986 or later), you're in the Nintendo generation yourself. Pepsi generation is solid A1 era.
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Posted: 7/22/2008 10:53:30 AM EDT
[#44]
Preach it brother!!!!!
Ape arms and all the rest. A2 is GTG. |
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Posted: 7/22/2008 10:54:54 AM EDT
[#45]
With no magazine I hope he isn't scanning for threats. |
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Posted: 7/22/2008 11:15:14 AM EDT
[#46]
With my ape arms, the A2 stock is comfortable in normal clothing, and just slightly off with ESAPIs. I'm totally fine with it.
I'd still like to see an alternative -UBR would be ideal, but something that retains the same functionality, but would allow for shorter people to shoot well in armor is something that needs to receive some spending attention (I'd rather have a telestock and 20" rifle than have to switch entirely to an M4) |
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Posted: 7/22/2008 11:31:44 AM EDT
[#47]
+1 6'2" but long ass arms here with an A1 on my service rifle. |
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Posted: 7/22/2008 11:57:22 AM EDT
[#48]
I agree with you on the stock, I like the collapsible better. But don't agree with most of your reasons. You act like there is no other way to shoot that NTCH. And IMHO, you're wrong. The fact is, just because YOU prefer the telestock, doesn't mean it's the only viable stock. |
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Posted: 7/22/2008 7:34:30 PM EDT
[#49]
Respect? Listen up tacticool wanna be, I'm a wounded in combat United States Marine. I cash a 40% disability check each month and have worn the body armor and A2 that the moron I was responding too said was impossible. Is it the perfect fit? No, but we learn in the first week of boot camp what improvise and overcome means. There are times when a collapsible would be easier, but then in those same instances...a solid stock in the hands of a man trained to use it is equally formidable (someone should introduce you to that buttstroke we've been discussing). Fact being, while you watched your friends leave for the sand and some of them come home under a flag...you still sat your ass here like a coward and let others go defend you. Shove that hyperbole up your ass pretty boy. I'm in the VA every single month, and you don't know respect until you see the cost up close and personal. If you are anywhere near denver, stop in and I'll teach you. |
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Posted: 7/22/2008 7:39:21 PM EDT
[#50]
I'm not arguing against collapsible stocks, because I like them more; but comparing iron sights vs. an M68 CCO is just plain old stupid. Of course they shot better with an optic. Has nothing to do with the stock. |
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