350 Legend, from Winchester

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Posted: 1/14/2019 9:21:30 AM EDT

Does anyone know anything about this round?

My father send me a pic of the cover of this magazine.

The article says it is based off a straight walled 223 Remington cartridge.

Boasts:

More energy than a 30-30

More energy than a 300 blackout

More energy than a 223 Remington

Approximately 20% less recoil than a 243 Winchester

Approximately 20% more penetration than a 243 Winchester

Less recoil than a 450 Bushmaster

Posted: 1/14/2019 9:30:33 AM EDT

[#1]

First thing that comes to mind is similar to rimless .357 Maximum? I'd like to know more about that bullet though.

Posted: 1/14/2019 9:35:55 AM EDT

[#2]

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Quoted:
First thing that comes to mind is similar to rimless .357 Maximum? I'd like to know more about that bullet though.

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This is what first came to my mind as well.

Posted: 1/14/2019 10:07:07 AM EDT

[#3]

Interesting idea, but the comparison to .243 Win is nonsense, and the rest are of marginal usefulness.

Posted: 1/14/2019 10:18:59 AM EDT

[#4]

357 Magnum or Maximum ballistics? Either way, should be very interesting.

Posted: 1/14/2019 11:11:35 AM EDT

[#5]

Very intriguing. Looks like they are trying to capitalize on the changes to the deer hunting Regs happening in the Midwest. Most are written as any straight wall cartridge.357 and larger. This is why such an explosion of 450 Bushmaster interest and offerings. New variation on the 12 ga slug vs 20ga slug, or more recent 44 Mag vs 357 Mag debate for rifles. I'm guessing more speed,flatter trajectories, and less recoil than a 450. Interesting.

Posted: 1/14/2019 11:45:19 AM EDT

[#6]

I would think that it would use 358 caliber rifle bullets and not 357 caliber pistol bullets.

But who knows.

Posted: 1/14/2019 11:55:32 AM EDT

[#7]

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Quoted:
I would think that it would use 358 caliber rifle bullets and not 357 caliber pistol bullets.

But who knows.

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same diameter for pistol and rifle in that caliber

Posted: 1/14/2019 11:59:15 AM EDT

[#8]

If it uses ‘rifle’ bullets then very few will expand at the velocities this round would give. It almost must use handgun bullets or there will be no expansion.

I did work on the .358 SOCOM and it shot quite well with handgun bullets and they did not explode like I thought they would, even at very close range, at velocities waaaay higher than they were ever designed. Hornady XTP bullets hold together, period. But you put rifle bullets, most of which need 1800 fps impact velocity to expand, and bullet selection will be very small. But handgun bullets, there are dozens of bullets that are useable.

Posted: 1/14/2019 1:53:56 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:
The article says it is based off a straight walled 223 Remington cartridge.

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Boy, after the success of the .300BO, you're nobody if you haven't come up with your own round based on a necked-up .223, I guess. Every company out there has to throw their hat in the ring.

I think this is another "me-too" cartridge looking for a way to justify its existence.

Posted: 1/14/2019 2:21:20 PM EDT

[#10]

Quote History

Quoted:
If it uses ‘rifle’ bullets then very few will expand at the velocities this round would give. It almost must use handgun bullets or there will be no expansion.

I did work on the .358 SOCOM and it shot quite well with handgun bullets and they did not explode like I thought they would, even at very close range, at velocities waaaay higher than they were ever designed. Hornady XTP bullets hold together, period. But you put rifle bullets, most of which need 1800 fps impact velocity to expand, and bullet selection will be very small. But handgun bullets, there are dozens of bullets that are useable.

View Quote

44 caliber XTPs didn't hold together for me, on elk. But that's another story.

I have a stash of Nosler 170 grain partition bullets (357). This could be what I've been saving them for. If we're lucky, just a barrel and magazine change will get it going.

Posted: 1/14/2019 2:48:52 PM EDT

[#11]

I guess the real question for me is, will it cycle subsonics in an AR? Because 9x39 looks like it might take off soon, but this would allow for much more common bullets and brass to be used.

Posted: 1/14/2019 4:33:48 PM EDT

[#12]

Claiming to be the "fastest straight wall case" to me means it would be faster than a 444 marlin.

444 launches a 265 grain FTX pill at 2325fps.

Posted: 1/14/2019 4:55:50 PM EDT

[#13]

Looks like a 357AR. Couldn't find it on the Winchester site.

Posted: 1/14/2019 5:10:30 PM EDT

[#14]

Well ain't that somethin'. We've been doing it for quite a while now, and others before us.

https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/357-AR-max/121-735639/

But, I guess it being Winchester and on the cover of some magazine and all...

Posted: 1/14/2019 5:21:05 PM EDT

[#15]

Quote History

Quoted:
Well ain't that somethin'. We've been doing it for quite a while now, and others before us.

https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/357-AR-max/121-735639/

But, I guess it being Winchester and on the cover of some magazine and all...

View Quote

Perhaps Winchester is making a Wildcat into a SAAMI round. Good for everybody. Making the brass sounds like a PITA, I'd rather buy it from Starline.

Posted: 1/14/2019 5:30:37 PM EDT

[#16]

Quote History

Quoted:

Perhaps Winchester is making a Wildcat into a SAAMI round. Good for everybody. Making the brass sounds like a PITA, I'd rather buy it from Starline.

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Oh it's a good thing! I hope this makes Moleman proud... and they should at least give him a call and say thanks

Posted: 1/14/2019 5:30:54 PM EDT

[#17]

Kind of like what AAC did with the .300BO and the .300 Whisper. Marketing, hype, and big $$$ along with paid gun rag reviews will make a ho-hum round take off like sliced cheese.

If a gun rag says it’s the latest and greatest, then just like the internet, it has to be true.

Posted: 1/14/2019 5:33:00 PM EDT

[#18]

Quote History

Quoted:
Well ain't that somethin'. We've been doing it for quite a while now, and others before us.

https://www.ar15.com/forums/AR-15/357-AR-max/121-735639/

But, I guess it being Winchester and on the cover of some magazine and all...

View Quote

That was the first thing I thought of!

Posted: 1/14/2019 5:41:16 PM EDT

[#19]

My bet would be this will be released first in the Winchester XTR bolt action line. They've already given away too many sales to the Ruger American in 450. Since dropping the 77/44 and 77/357 Ruger only has the 450. Many hunters want a lighter recoil round, ala .357. If you don't like expensive lever action rifles you are out of luck.
The XTR would be the budget line, the Browning X Bolt the middle class, and a nice Winchester M70 the high end.
The AR crowd will have to wait until it goes mainstream. FN that owns both would be the go to for AR platforms.
This sounds fun.

Posted: 1/14/2019 6:02:06 PM EDT

[#20]

Quote History

Quoted:
Kind of like what AAC did with the .300BO and the .300 Whisper. Marketing, hype, and big $$$ along with paid gun rag reviews will make a ho-hum round take off like sliced cheese.

If a gun rag says it’s the latest and greatest, then just like the internet, it has to be true.

View Quote

I already like 357 Mag leverguns. And would love one in 357 Max. If I can get an AR in 357 Max, or equivalent, even better. Everybody wins.

Posted: 1/14/2019 6:40:30 PM EDT

[#21]

Hard to say for certain, but it sure looks like it's the same length as a 357AR, same parent case also. It would be awesome to get factory ammo and mags for a wildcat!

Posted: 1/14/2019 7:14:21 PM EDT

[#22]

Quote History

Quoted:
comparison to .243 Win is nonsense,

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Posted: 1/14/2019 10:10:33 PM EDT

[#23]

I'm interested. I wonder how it will perform out of shorter barrels? 10.5"-12.5"? Could be good for our alternative deer season which allows pistols

Posted: 1/15/2019 5:43:02 AM EDT

[#24]

Quote History

Quoted:
Oh it's a good thing! I hope this makes Moleman proud... and they should at least give him a call and say thanks

View Quote View All Quotes

View All Quotes

Quote History

Quoted:

Quoted:

Perhaps Winchester is making a Wildcat into a SAAMI round. Good for everybody. Making the brass sounds like a PITA, I'd rather buy it from Starline.

Oh it's a good thing! I hope this makes Moleman proud... and they should at least give him a call and say thanks

Lol they will absolutely not acknowledge that he could possibly be owed something!

Posted: 1/15/2019 5:44:50 AM EDT

[#25]

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Quoted:

Quoted:
comparison to .243 Win is nonsense,

Also this... Wut?!

I guess one could draw comparisons between a 2000 FPS cartridge and a 3200 FPS cartridge. The casings are both made of brass.

Posted: 1/17/2019 10:52:25 AM EDT

[#26]

I talked to Winchester. The 350 Legend was not suppose to be released to the public until SHOT.
They won't give out any additional information until that time.

Tony

Posted: 1/17/2019 11:48:09 AM EDT

[#27]

Quote History

Quoted:
I talked to Winchester. The 350 Legend was not suppose to be released to the public until SHOT.
They won't give out any additional information until that time.

Tony

View Quote

Bummer... Lol.. that explains why my Goggle Fu has been worthless.

Posted: 1/17/2019 12:11:53 PM EDT

[#28]

Probably developed to be marketed specifically to hunters in states that only allow shotguns and straight walled rifle cases.

Posted: 1/17/2019 12:32:10 PM EDT

[#29]

Interesting. I've been pondering what to do with an extra Aero upper I have. I like .357 Mag lever guns so this may work.

Posted: 1/18/2019 8:48:23 AM EDT

[#30]

Quote History

Quoted:

Oh it's a good thing! I hope this makes Moleman proud... and they should at least give him a call and say thanks

View Quote

Was just going to say this. I remember him doing his probably almost a decade ago.

The good thing is it will hopefully spawn new bullets which is never a bad thing. I have long loved the 35 cal. In my opinion it is one of the most versatile calibers around. you have everything from those 65gr Lehigh's on up to just shy of 300gr rifle bullets.

Posted: 1/18/2019 2:58:55 PM EDT

[#31]

Quote History

Quoted:
Interesting idea, but the comparison to .243 Win is nonsense

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Disagree.
Outside of Arfcom, if a .223 isn't enough for deer, .243 is the traditional next step up. Winchester is probably trying to sell this as another step-up option, one which may or may not fit in an AR15*

*It better fit, or it's dead before it was born, but dumber things have happened.

Posted: 1/18/2019 4:09:48 PM EDT

[#32]

I think what he meant, was that with a smaller diameter bullet, with a better BC/SD, and moving way faster.....it's going to penetrate more than a slower, larger diameter, less BC/SD bullet of the 350L, not withstanding bullet construction.
Basically, if you put pointed solids in both, the .243 is going to penetrate better. It's going to be one hell of an uphill battle to argue against that.....but I'm sure someone here will give it a try.

Tony

Posted: 1/18/2019 4:20:44 PM EDT

[#33]

Quote History

Quoted:
I talked to Winchester. The 350 Legend was not suppose to be released to the public until SHOT.
They won't give out any additional information until that time.

Tony

View Quote

Tell us a bedtime story about the .358 SOCOM, Uncle Tony...

Posted: 1/18/2019 6:05:29 PM EDT

[#34]

We made 10 barrels in 358 SOCOM and they didn't sell very well, so they were discontinued.

Tony

Posted: 1/18/2019 6:21:37 PM EDT

[#35]

Quote History

Quoted:
We made 10 barrels in 358 SOCOM and they didn't sell very well, so they were discontinued.

Tony

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. What kind of performance did you get out of it?

Posted: 1/18/2019 7:06:57 PM EDT

[#36]

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I shoot a lot of 357 maximum through Thompson centers. Anything over 14” doesn’t gain you much at all. The 357 max is loaded with slow burning pistol powders designed to burn up in 6”-8” barrels.

Posted: 1/18/2019 8:27:27 PM EDT

[#37]

Quote History

Quoted:

I shoot a lot of 357 maximum through Thompson centers. Anything over 14” doesn’t gain you much at all. The 357 max is loaded with slow burning pistol powders designed to burn up in 6”-8” barrels.

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That's why max length we sell is 16" in 357AR Max Rimless. You get just about all you're going to get.

Posted: 1/18/2019 9:35:21 PM EDT

[#38]

Quote History

Quoted:

. What kind of performance did you get out of it?

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I did a fair amount of work on the .358S and it is posted up on the .458 SOCOM Forums. IIRC I did or calculated loads from 125 gr. XTP .357 bullets to 200 gr. TTSX and SST. The 125s were not real accurate but not terrible either as I recall and they held up a LOT better than I ever dreamed they would.

link

Posted: 1/19/2019 12:08:09 AM EDT

[#39]

Quote History

Quoted:

. What kind of performance did you get out of it?

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Check out the 358 Yeti, it might interest you. We'll have them back in again in March.

Posted: 1/19/2019 12:19:26 PM EDT

[#40]

Quote History

Quoted:
I guess the real question for me is, will it cycle subsonics in an AR? Because 9x39 looks like it might take off soon, but this would allow for much more common bullets and brass to be used.

View Quote

I also hope the specs of this cartridge (twist rate, gas port location, typical powders, etc) lend themselves to both subsonic and supersonic AR loads. The straight wall cartridge would be easy to reload and last a long time. Heavy bullets suitable for subsonic are widely available for 357's, and when run supersonic, make a good brush hunting gun out to at least 100 yards.

Posted: 1/19/2019 9:11:28 PM EDT

[#41]

With any luck we will see a better selection of hunting bullets. I shoot the 180gr speer hot core flat point and furry custom 170gr bullet in my Encore 357 Maximum, I can push both theses bullets over 2400 fps out of my 24 inch MGM barrel, so I wouldn't be selling this round short for hunting, with any luck they made the case to 1.8, if they do 2500 to 2600fps should be well with in reach with 180gr bullets.

Posted: 1/19/2019 11:10:18 PM EDT

[#42]

Quote History

Quoted:
With any luck we will see a better selection of hunting bullets. I shoot the 180gr speer hot core flat point and furry custom 170gr bullet in my Encore 357 Maximum, I can push both theses bullets over 2400 fps out of my 24 inch MGM barrel, so I wouldn't be selling this round short for hunting, with any luck they made the case to 1.8, if they do 2500 to 2600fps should be well with in reach with 180gr bullets.

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Welcome to ARFCOM. Got any Legos?

Posted: 1/20/2019 12:14:49 AM EDT

[#43]

What are the chances this works with standard AR mags and buffers?

Posted: 1/20/2019 12:18:27 PM EDT

[#44]

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Quoted:
What are the chances this works with standard AR mags and buffers?

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You probably need to use modified polymer mags.

The forward most deep rib in normal aluminum magazine would likely cause binding.

Posted: 1/20/2019 1:41:52 PM EDT

[#45]

AR mag mod is posted in the 357 AR max thread here as well.

Posted: 1/20/2019 2:27:24 PM EDT

[#46]

Great hunters cartridge for an AR envelope.

I wonder if the ability to use heavier subsonics than available for 300 blk would make it cycle more evenly going between sub and supers than 300 blk does w/o gas system changes???

Is the case truley straight? It would benefit from straight 30rd mags??

I can see something that bolts on to a 20rd Pmag maybe

Posted: 1/20/2019 2:29:24 PM EDT

[#47]

So does this use 357 pistol or 358 rifle bullets???

Posted: 1/20/2019 3:20:49 PM EDT

[#48]

Could we get a drop-in 9x19mm adapter kit?

Posted: 1/20/2019 3:29:24 PM EDT

[#49]

30 rounds of 180 gr or heavier gets pretty heavy to hunt with. My 300BO with 8 inch barrel and suppressor tips the scale over 10 lbs with 30 rounds of 200 gr subs.