Bag up like you would be zeroing your BUIS / Irons / RDS at 25 meters.  I know 50 yards is most typical and if you're zero'd at 50, you can do this challenge too.  i really don't care if the groups are a high low left right because I know there can be a shift in POI from different brands and you should be hitting low if your zero'd at 50 yards.

So take a pic of your range from your firing line to the target, take a pic of your gun (doesn't have to be an AR but the service ammo rule still applies, see below) and rest you're using, shoot 10 rounds at 25 meters (you can do 25 yards too since I know some ranges might only have that distance, but you're cheating by 2. some odd yards :)) bagged or whatever rest you use when you zero.  Take a pic of your group with it measured and mark the type of ammo used.  I measure from the center of the two furthest rounds.  Tell us what kind of BUIS or RDS you are using.  I'm sure it will be obvious if you post pics but some newcomers might not know what they are.

ONE BIG CAVEAT, only service type ammo is allowed.  M193, M855, FMJ stuff, cheap stuff, etc.  No premium self defense or hunting rounds.  No match ammo.  Doesn't make sense to waste good ammo at 25 meters.    So that means no MK262.  I'm not sure what to say about MK318.  I guess that would be allowed but is that a match round?  I forget.  M855A1 would be allowed too.  I'm thinking.

Also, no sleds.  That just silly.  

ALSO, I'm interested to see RDS groups but I would encourage you to also shoot it with your BUIS if you have them, so we can see the difference.  If there is any.  If you don't have BUIS, don't worry about it, just post your RDS groups.

No magnified scopes.

Any time I, or many other people post groups, most people chime in about how they can shoot better, usually with some colorful advice that to me doesn't always equate to reality.   For example, not to single anyone out but last time someone told me ammo doesn't make one bit of difference.  I was like, yeah, OK.  Maybe I misunderstood what he meant but to me ammo absolutely makes a difference.

So here's your chance to put your money where your mouth is.  I don't claim to be a super great shot.  And my eyes are starting to not be as great as they used to.  But at the same time I think my hardware works like it should and would work if I needed to use it.  Even with just the irons.

If you've recently shot at 25 meters or yards and want to show us what you did, go for it.  It would be best if we can get people to do 10 round groups to see how they compare though.



Magpul MBUS rear and LMT front on my 16" WOA recce




You don't need a pic of you shooting.  My daughter happened to be with me today to take the pic...


Federal bulk round XM855, I had a 62 grain theme going on today


Winchester white box .223 pressure 62 grain FMJ


Some M855 that was made in the United Arab Emerites dated 2004, it's not that great obviously but I've been using it up.  


At the end of it all I had an el cheapo RDS I threw on and just used my mag as a monopod.  I suppose I should've done it all rested like the others to make a better comparison, but oh well.

Place holder... cause I'm going to the range tomorrow......

In.

Sounds fun.
I'm going to the range Sunday to zero a new RDS.
I always start at 25yds.
I will try to remember to get pics of everything!

I will try to get out next week and post results here.  JJREA you already won the ugly sweater award!

That thing is really warm and has a really svelte feel to it.  My wife likes it too.  Somehow it's become my cold weather shooting garb.  LOL.  First time I shot with it on people made some comments and it's funny so now I keep taking it when I go.  I wasn't wearing it the whole time but it got cold as the sun was going down.  I typically work on my pistols first.

See :

Here's something a little different than what you asked for, but maybe of interest to this thread.

I did prone at 25 meters with a 1-4 on 1X.  That gives me a 6MOA dot at 1X.  I held over a little to correct for height over bore.  
Rifle is a BCM 16" hammer forged, 1/7", chrome lined, lower has Geissele SSA.  Optic is Nightforce NXS 1-4 FC3G reticle.  
Ammo used was Federal XM193, 2008 headstamp.

The rifle.


The range.  I shot from behind the firing line to be at 25M.


The target.  Squares are 1".  Center to center is ~11/16".

Nice shooting!   Looks like a bit over 1/2" or maybe right at 1/2".  Was that 10 rounds?  Ooops, I just saw your measurment....  11/16"  Well you beat my best one, but you didn't use irons.  

I'm not sure what to think about if a scope on 1x is cheating for this particular challenge.  LOL.  But I appreciate taking the time to post it.   They say most 1x are not true 1x.  Whether or not that is an advantage we'll just leave it up to everyone.

I have found Federal XM stuff to be accurate.   XM193 seems to shoot better for me than any of the other M193 I have lately.

Did you use a rest or no?  Also, out of curiosity, how much does that thing weigh unloaded, no mag?  It's a nice set up.  Reminds me of one Proctor had on a vid he did.  Although he likes that BCM gunfighter stock it seems.

I'll give it a go.

I just went prone on the mag.  I don't know what it weighs, but it's not real heavy.  Government profile barrel that shoots pretty good.  I shot a few 1.25MOA 10 round groups with 77gr IMI this morning.

Those Nightforce 1-4s aren't real great on 1X. An Aimpoint has better optical quality for 1X.

I'll do red dot and buis next time.  I didn't have any of those with me today.

I appreciate the input and you are doing really good when just using the mag as a monopod.   At least from what I can tell. I give credit where credit is do.  Not sure I could do that.  In fact most of the time I've shot my recce with the scope on at 25 meters I feel like I don't shoot that good.  But at 100 I feel like it works pretty well.  It's probably parallax and something I'm doing wrong.  I don't know.   Leupy VX-1 2x7.

Or it could be that I just normally use crappier ammo at 25.  I don't know.  My recce is kind of.....  has champagne tastes sort of.  It seems to favor match ammo.  Which is normal but I mean it's kind of drastic in that it will just really dislike some cheaper rounds.  My M4gery with an RRA barrel will shoot just about anything well.  It seems.   But the federal stuff seems to shoot well in all my guns lately.  But that recce, I'll put up a 1 moa group of 77's, 2 moa of XM855 and then american eagle 55's will be 5 MOA.  It's like waaaaaa?  Maybe it's me but I don't think so.  It doesn't like the 69's at all either.  But 52 / 68/ 75 / 77, shoots really well.

But yeah, if you get a chance to do it with irons and RDS, that'd be great!!!!

Rifle is my trusty BCM 14.5" Upper on a LMT lower... FSB and the classic ARMS 40 BUIS(My first ever BUIS purchased).
Trigger is a LaRue MBT
Ammo is still Wolf 55 gr ball. I popped of the T-1


25Meters according to my LRF.



10 rds Iron

Now I put the T-1 back on (With 4 MOA dot)



So now since I have the range  to myself...

Lets see what we can do at 50 yds...



10 rds  5 center and 5 head

Now the Aimpoint


10 rds  5 center and 5 head

Over all the l lesson learned is you can be pretty accurate with irons (I already knew that) but the Aimpoint can give you the edge on speed and light conditions and can also compensate and be a bit more forgiving on sight alignment.

Your 25 meter groups look to be about 1-1/4" furthest shots apart of the irons and 1-1/2 or 1-3/4" with the RDS.

Not bad with wolf.  Last time I had a shooting session with some wolf, it didn't seem like it grouped that bad.

I agree with you about your observations.  It is easier to sight with an RDS.  But I also have tested a few times the difference and found that I'll shoot tighter groups with irons at these closer ranges.  It would be interesting to see what difference it would make at 100 yards.

I will admit that when I shot my groups, the sun was starting to fade.  And by the last group I shot with the irons, I really had to focus to shoot it.  It would've been easier and I might have shot better if there was more light.  And then that very last group I threw on the RDS and it made it a heck of a lot easier to get a good sight picture.  It made it a breeze.  But IMHO, for home defense distances and a white light, it doesn't make much of a difference at all.  I think you have to start getting past 10 yards and to a point your white light isn't as powerful and then it makes a difference.  OR, if you're not using your light and there is enough ambient light to see what you're doing, then an RDS is really way better.

Someday I'll do a test with a 2-2-4-2-2 drill at like 7 yards in low light with irons and RDS to see how it stacks up.  But I've seen a few people test and some have even found irons to be faster in daylight at close range.  But that's another subject.

I'm glad we can get a dialogue of what is typical level of shooting at 25 meters.  The more people that do this, the better.  Keeps us all honest.

It could be the wobble you see with higher magnification.  I was shooting my two RECCEs today, the one with the 1-4 and another, almost identical but with a stainless barrel, SSA-E, and NXS 2.5-10 and I was shooting the 1-4 just as well at 200 as I was the 10X.  I know that I was watching the target jump around and jerking the trigger.  I slowed down, built my position better, got behind the gun correctly, and did better when I gave myself the time to squeeze the round off.

I was doing that with the 1-4 because I couldn't see the target very well and made extra sure my fundamentals were good.  I got behind the 10X with the lighter trigger and got complacent because it looked so easy.

The thing that surprised me a bit, was how my iron groups at both 25M and 50Y were slightly smaller then my Aimpoint groups....

I might have to sell my Aimpoint.....

But like others have said, and I agree with, getting good with Irons really helps built the fundamentals that carry over to other things like RDS and LPV sights,etc.

It's very common for a shooter to be more precise with irons vs a red dot.

When I was in my 20s I could shoot more accurately and almost immeasurably slower with irons vs an Aimpoint in good light.  I haven't shot groups (or much at all) with irons in some time.   I'm going to give it a spin next time I shoot.

I'm not surprised.  The times I tested my AP Pro, that's what I found.  I posted that on here and I think you told me the same thing back then.  It's not about it being more accurate but just being quicker and better and simpler.   But it still makes me wonder, why should it be less accurate?

Personally, I think it's the whole parallax issue.  They all claim to be parallax free, but I don't think they are.  And the test that do pushups did showed the T-1 to possibly be even worse than some others in that regard.   Some seem to be better than others.  But I don't see why if you're you've got the dot where it's supposed to be, and you apply all the same fundamentals, it SHOULD be just as accurate.  But I personally think there is something inherent in a floating electric dot that makes it not mechanically as sound as other systems.  Or at least certain designs.

I hear what you're saying Sam about the movement.  I do notice when I shoot my 3x9 on a gun, I have to take more care to get a solid rest going.  But when you do, it pays off.  That could be the issue with my scope at 25 meters.  But you would think I would have to take as much care with the rest when using the irons too.  And maybe I do.....

I'm looking forward to doing this with some other guns.  Because personally, I find it easier to make good groups with my M1A than I do any of my ARs.  I remember one time going prone with a leather sling, and making a 1 holer group at 25 meeters with my BIL's polytech.    Although the bigger holes might be part of that equation.  LOL.

So red dot + rear aperture, sling, and Federal 223 FMJ is eligible? Any target parameters besides being 25m/yds from the firing point?

Well I was going to participate after zeroing my new upper we were issued but I was on point after (3rnd groups) 6 rounds and was pulled off the line by RO and had to giveup my remaining rounds to the next guy.

Attached File


I'm just zeroing.  Nine rounds.  

Would be nice to see it with it off, and then with it on.  If you feel so led.  Show us what you've been doing all this time.  Ammo is fine.  As long as it's not a match FMJ load.  But I don't think I've ever seen Federal do a match FMJ in .223.

I noticed your target said 4moa dot

2moa is easier to be more precise with IMO

Looks like everyone is shooting about 3-4moa, about the limits of the round. Good job. With my old eyes I doubt I could do it, I'm a optics guy. My range limit is 100yds on the low end so unless I get to another range sometime I'll let y'all have fun.

4 MOA. Should've been 3 dangit.



From the description:

OK
Another round with my other AR, cause I could go shooting again...


BCM 16" mid length withe SSA Gieselle trigger
Burris XTR ll  1-5x low power variable (Everything shot in 1x) on a American Defense QD Recon Scout mount
Same old cheap crappy .55 gr Wolf ARFCOM loves to hate...

At 25m


Then out to 50yds (1x)
5 rd head
5 rds center

Bump.

ETA: I brought my NMA2 upper, but was pressed for time, and centerfire rifles aren't allowed on the shorter ranges.

Alright, I gave it a go this morning, using one of my SBRs...

BCM 14.5 gov upper w/ Toolcraft BCG
Aimpoint T1 4MOA on LT660
Matech BUIS
ALG QMS trigger
Federal XM193 ammo

Target and position-



I turned the T1 as far down as I could and still see the dot, and used the top edge of the dot to aim as best I could.

With the T1, ~3/4" CTC-



For better or for worse, I decided to "shoot through" my RDS (turned off), since this is how I would likely utilize my BUIS, should the T1 go down for some reason. This is the first time that I can recall shooting for accuracy using the BUIS through the window of the RDS.

Set up for BUIS-



And the resulting group, just under 1" CTC-



Next time out, i'll shoot a group with the BUIS through the T1, then pull the T1 off and shoot another, for comparison.

nicely done...good shooting...

Thank you, sir.

You've got some nice groups yourself, and I dig that paint.

It's been a while since I had time to shoot and this gave me an excuse. Went over to a buddies this Saturday and these are the results.

25m using 55 grain PMC X-Tac





I'd say I need a little practice, but I think I did ok when we moved it back to 70 yards.



Only took four shots though.

Good shootin!  Plus it looks like you're opposite of what harv and I found.  You actually shot better with the RDS.  I have to ask, what type of shooting system did you learn on?   I don't know if I've ever known how old you are.....    I got to thinking I need to do this retest with my el cheapo Fieldsport and see what type of groups I get.

I wouldn't say it's too bad at all.  The majority were under an inch.   Either you pulled a few or the ammo is just not that consistent in your gun.   I've never shot PMC Xtac.  In fact I'm not sure I've ever shot any .223 / 5.56 PMC.  Plenty of handgun ammo and it's usually on the soft side.  Which sometimes helps with accuracy.

So I went to the range today to zero my new Red Dot and verify my old zero on my Iron Sights.
I didn't measure the Iron Sight groups because I shot at 1" grid targets.
Irons are
KAC 200/600 micro rear
Magpul Pro Front
Great combo.
I usually shoot my red dots better than irons, and that is apparent in the targets from today. Nothing new for me there.
The rifle was a parts bin build, using the barrel from my very first AR15. It came off an R-Guns Upper. 1/9 non chrome lined barrel.
Mil Spec BCM Trigger.
Here is the setup.....





Edited to add: all groups were 10 rounds.

Iron sight groups with PMC X-Tac
First


Second


Third (I was really happy with this)


Red Dot groups sighting in with various ammo written next to target.





55gr 3gun hoser loads made en mass on my Lee Loadmaster Progressive press.
" />

69gr 3gun reloads for heavy targets



Overall target at the end of the day.


I learned how to shoot with Irons and have been shooting since I was a little kid. But I still feel like I shoot with much less effort using a red dot. I really have to concentrate and focus to shoot accurately with Irons.
Most of my red dot groups were shooting a round every couple seconds.

great post savageman!  You say your RDS are better, but I don't think they're any smaller groups.  I hear you about it being easier and faster, but if you measure them, they might be larger....  I'm not completely sure.

I think you might have beaten my best iron sight group with your best iron sight group.  It's pretty close.  Maybe you could also measure that one center to center of the outermost shot of that group for me.

Also, very cool rifle.  I dig the fixed stock.

Without the RDS, it kinda has a SMLE aesthetic.

I learned how to shoot on a .22 with a plain front/rear blade arrangement.

As far as the AR15/M4/M16, I have definitely shot more with RCOs and CCOs than iron sights.

Thanks JJ.
I ran it through on target software..........



.870"

Best rds group



.559"

HPRB, I think you're right!

I did this with my newest 3gun build with an RDS. Very impressed with the Larue Barrel!

My mount nut loosened a little. I'll blame the outlier on that.

Well, that was some great shooting.  You get top honors so far for not using any kind of rest.  Although a good sling all tight does do a lot.  But still.....   Great shooting.  What kind of ammo were you using?  Did I miss that somewhere?

Handloads are cheating for this test.  

Looks like the group to the left was even smaller, of the RDS groups.  The other groups look the same or bigger than your irons.  But I see what you're saying.  You got the best group with your RDS.  Good work.

Is an AUG with a fixed 1.5x optic allowed?

He posted Federal 55 gr ball.... And yeah... mighty fine shooting....for a Texan....

This is an equal opportunity test.  But just know if you do really well, don't kid yourself and think it's the same thing as using irons.

I like seeing what everone puts up with pretty much any gear, but I was trying to keep it in the non magnified category.

I do like the idea of the 1.5 ACOG's as a GP optic.  It's kind of like an RDS without batteries.  But I'm not sure if it's as fast with both eyes open.  But it's 1 plane of focus instead of 3 when comparing to irons and that's a good thing.  

Actually the type of ammo you use is probably more important.  Good ammo is going to group better.  Although some of the service type stuff groups really well in some peoples guns.

Federal 55gr .223 Rem, BP223BL.

I dunno if it was the 85 rounds of 21.0 gr H4198/moly'd 50gr VMAX, or the 10 rounds of Federal, but the first couple patches were rather green.

Cleaning?  What's that?  

" />

Imagine my dismay when I came in here only to find that I had failed to follow simple instructions. Still, with the exception of the shot I pulled in the bottom group I don't hate my results. Will reshoot tomorrow.

Rifle: BCM KMR13 ELW 16"
Ammo: 55 grain Wolf Military Classic
Distance: 25 meters
Position: prone, rested on magazine
Optic (lower group): Aimpoint Comp M2
Iron Sights (upper group): Magpul Mbus

Weather permitting ill tey to go out this weekend with a new build and new a2 lmt irons.

I'm interested in seeing what you get with the LMT A2's. I started off with those on another rifle at 50 yards and it was bad enough that I didn't even try it at 25m. That front post just covers up too much area for me.

*double post*

You score points for showing off your cool BCM muzzle device that's supposed to be the shiznit on top of a FF'ed lw barrel.  Nice.  And you have a light.    But otherwise your 5 rounds short in each group.    Which typically equates to a larger group.  But not always.  You might have put the rest into the groups you have.