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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 25 Meter BUIS/irons/rds challenge, show my how much better you can shoot than I can........ (Page 2 of 7)
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Quoted:
I'm interested in seeing what you get with the LMT A2's. I started off with those on another rifle at 50 yards and it was bad enough that I didn't even try it at 25m. That front post just covers up too much area for me. 
Anybody know the size of the MBUS apertures? I thought I had that info somewhere around here from when I ordered it, but now I can't find it...... ugh. |
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Quoted:
I'm interested in seeing what you get with the LMT A2's. I started off with those on another rifle at 50 yards and it was bad enough that I didn't even try it at 25m. That front post just covers up too much area for me.  And bigger sight, bigger target. JJ, the apertures should be standard ~0.070"/0.200". |
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Reshoot results from today. Same rifle with bonus M1A. Rifle: BCM KMR13 ELW 16", Springfield Armory M1A Ammo: 55 grain Wolf Military Classic, ZQI M80 Ball Distance: 25 meters Position: Standing, rested on magazine on vehicle hood Optic: Aimpoint Comp M2 Iron Sights: Magpul Mbus, standard M1A sights Weather conditions were less than favorable. Had to put some poor mans lamination (packing tape) on the target so it wouldn't dissolve.  " />
1" squares that first red dot group is pretty meh compared to some but I'll take it.  " />
Iron sight group is certainly nothing to write home about.  " />
2nd RDS group is not quite as good as the first. 
2nd iron sight group. Apparently my irons never got re zeroed for 50/200 because they're dead on at 25. 
I wasn't confident that I had caught pneumonia yet, and wanted more stuff to clean when I got home so the M1A came out as well. 
Shot this with ZQI. 
Overall, I'm certainly no crack shot. Lucky for me ARs hold a lot of bullets! 
Takeaways: I need more slow deliberate fire in my life. Because of where I shoot I can't stretch out much further than 75 meters, I've gotten into the habit of doing more defensive drills and less shooting for accuracy with rifles. Clearly I need to bring that closer to 50/50. |
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Ooooooo, we have our first battle rifle in here. Thank you!!!!
What an awesome place to shoot. And you get a lot of credit because I doubt I'd do that good off of a hood. Good shooting. I'm not sure accuracy work is all that practical. I thinking shooting offhand more is better because it's more likely you'll be doing it that way for serious use. I thought about doing the same 25 meter challenge off hand, but we do already have an offhand challenge. I'm not sure it got archived though. It was at 50 yards shooting at a picture of a grapefruit. |
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Quoted: Personally I find the LMT easier to use than a standard FSB because the dog ears are further away and just crowd the front post less. They might even let a bit more light to the post. I don't know. I just know I can always get a crisper sight picture on that one compared to my M4gery and it's only a hair further out. I don't think even an inch...... https://i.imgur.com/soGDH84.jpg https://i.imgur.com/PK0chVD.jpg https://i.imgur.com/sICKhth.jpg Anybody know the size of the MBUS apertures? I thought I had that info somewhere around here from when I ordered it, but now I can't find it...... ugh. For irons only shooting, the barrel mounted sight should give you the best results. |
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For irons only shooting, the barrel mounted sight should give you the best results. The last couple times I shot the carbine with handguards was as an A2 and then flattop with a cheap scope. The A2 shot as well as now, but with scope, Zero moved noticeably. Could've been some difference in receiver fit and torque, but I think the sight moving with the barrel reduces some of the shift. |
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I just came across your challenge. While I didn't exactly follow your rules because I didn't know about them. Here's a 40 round group at 100 yards using a 16'' home built AR with unmagnified red dot and a rest. Friend and I had a dumb challenge.... He didn't think my Zombie gun could shoot. Attached File Only pics I can find of my range. Just it's backstop... Attached File And the Zombie gun Attached File |
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Quoted:
I just came across your challenge. While I didn't exactly follow your rules because I didn't know about them. Here's a 40 round group at 100 yards using a 16'' home built AR with unmagnified red dot and a rest. Friend and I had a dumb challenge.... He didn't think my Zombie gun could shoot. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/153852/IMG_4165-383666.JPG Only pics I can find of my range. Just it's backstop... https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/153852/IMG_3990-383668.JPG And the Zombie gun https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/153852/IMG_3903-383671.JPG 
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Quoted:
I just came across your challenge. While I didn't exactly follow your rules because I didn't know about them. Here's a 40 round group at 100 yards using a 16'' home built AR with unmagnified red dot and a rest. Friend and I had a dumb challenge.... He didn't think my Zombie gun could shoot. https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/153852/IMG_4165-383666.JPG Only pics I can find of my range. Just it's backstop... https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/153852/IMG_3990-383668.JPG And the Zombie gun https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/153852/IMG_3903-383671.JPG |
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Look forward to the challenge this Friday in the snow. Shooting rifle length AR15 A3 prone "unsupported" (i guess) according to Army field manual FM 3-229 http://www.apd.army.mil/epubs/DR_pubs/DR_a/pdf/web/TC%203-22x9%20C1%20INCL%20FINAL%20WEB.pdf |
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I needed to zero my Mk18 Mod0 upper anyway so I'll play your little game
25m range https://i.imgur.com/SVI4ebC.jpg The gun https://i.imgur.com/f4ENW2M.jpg First 10rnd Group https://i.imgur.com/bPIPOB3.jpg Last 10 round group, after this group I came up one notch on the FSP and left a few on the rear and confirmed. https://i.imgur.com/FLEPjGF.jpg |
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Quoted: Nice build!!!! Nice place to shoot. Good shooting! Would you be so kind as to measure the groups from the middle of the furthest round from each other in a group. Also what ammo were you shooting? |
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Sorry. Only have 22lr groups at that distance.
The range  20171208_081859 by Slick_Rick77, on Flickr
Kid with 4.5" suppressed CMMG SBR  20170608_180140(0) by Slick_Rick77, on Flickr
16" 15-22  20170207_084414 by Slick_Rick77, on Flickr
 20170616_004441 by Slick_Rick77, on Flickr
The far left group was a bad CMMG barrel. The next is the replacement. The farthest right is the 15-22. The 15-22 had quite a bit of zero shift suppressed. It's pretty good for an essentially box stock gun. |
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American Eagle 55 Grain, I didnt measure the group but the targets are the standard Army zero'ing targets. So the circle is like 4 mOA or so. I've heard people talk about using the aperture to crisp there dot up, but man if that doesn't get too busy for me. You're looking at the target, the front sight, the dot, the rear ap, and then to add to all of that, the housing. My head explodes. Too much going on for me. Now looking over the top of the irons, that works for me. But a lower 1/3 mount would be better for that of course. Although it will work with a standard mount too. I have not found my guns to like American Eagle 55 grain, .223 pressure. At least when it came in the red box. Now XM193 seems to shoot well in most of my guns. And I think that's marked "American Eagle" now too. So I'm not sure which one you mean. |
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dont have shit to do tomorrow......this is stupid and i LIKE it lol IM IN JJ. https://s8.postimg.org/q9dsww451/20171206_111749.jpg https://s8.postimg.org/5p8yyfqyt/20171206_113142.jpg JUNK. ill stick with my handloads LOL. aimpoint 2moa. threw the atlas on the CQBR 10.3 and a rear bag. https://s8.postimg.org/tg8cgnec5/20171206_114043.jpg I was hoping you'd do this test with the RDS on your holland. 
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Del-ton AR15 A3 20" heavy profile barrel, standard length gas system, 1x9 twist,
Standard Mil-Spec trigger. System was RIBZ zeroed using Hornady American Gunner 55 gr HP-Match ammo for Service Rifle matches Shooting prone position with magazine resting on ground. Weather: Temp: 19 degrees, 40% chance of snow. Forecast calling for 1-3 inches of new snow. Wind 10 mph with gust as high as 20 mph Elevation: 1322' Range Pic: 
Ammo used for the challenge (not in order fired) 
In order shot: 10 shot group 55GR. Remington - 1.3125: 
10 shot group Freedom 55 GR - 1.375: 
10 shot group Federal M855 62 GR - 1.5: 
Best Group - |
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I remembered this thread the other day after I got on site and both AR's I brought had LPV scopes on them. So I did it with the one that has a 1-6x, set to 1x. I'll try to do it again with a red dot.
LMT MRP 14.5" middie Burris RT6 scope on 1x power Ammo #1: Tula 55gr Ammo #2: Handloads using Wolf 55gr FMJ and WC844 powder (just for comparison) Distance was 26yds (per laser rangefinder) Tula group: Attached File 55FMJ handload group: Attached File Shooting position: Attached File Target: Attached File |
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Quoted:
I've heard people talk about using the aperture to crisp there dot up, but man if that doesn't get too busy for me. You're looking at the target, the front sight, the dot, the rear ap, and then to add to all of that, the housing. My head explodes. Too much going on for me. Now looking over the top of the irons, that works for me. But a lower 1/3 mount would be better for that of course. Although it will work with a standard mount too. An aperture DOES help make the dot a circle. If someone feels a bit experimental, find the ideal aperture diameter that sharpens the dot without darkening the sight picture and reducing the FOV. I'm guessing 0.100". |
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Del-ton AR15 A3 20" heavy profile barrel, standard length gas system, 1x9 twist, Standard Mil-Spec trigger. System was RIBZ zeroed using Hornady American Gunner 55 gr HP-Match ammo for Service Rifle matches Shooting prone position with magazine resting on ground. Weather: Temp: 19 degrees, 40% chance of snow. Forecast calling for 1-3 inches of new snow. Wind 10 mph with gust as high as 20 mph Elevation: 1322' Range Pic: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ss5i0fj4x284bxr/RangePic.jpg?raw=1 Ammo used for the challenge (not in order fired) https://www.dropbox.com/s/r4mhrld6ikmaq1y/AmmoSelection.jpg?raw=1 In order shot: 10 shot group 55GR. Freedom Re-manufactured: https://www.dropbox.com/s/grad6f6vjyskzqa/Freedom55GR.jpg?raw=1 10 shot group .223 Remington 55 GR: https://www.dropbox.com/s/1m0ew4ujqwdgjc9/Rem223.jpg?raw=1 10 shot group Federal M855 62 GR: https://www.dropbox.com/s/372l6fgzuz8bvma/M855.jpg?raw=1 Best Group - Freedom 55 GR M193 https://www.dropbox.com/s/48i6lnomg3rwfsz/BestGroup.PNG?raw=1 |
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I remembered this thread the other day after I got on site and both AR's I brought had LPV scopes on them. So I did it with the one that has a 1-6x, set to 1x. I'll try to do it again with a red dot. LMT MRP 14.5" middie Burris RT6 scope on 1x power Ammo #1: Tula 55gr Ammo #2: Handloads using Wolf 55gr FMJ and WC844 powder (just for comparison) Distance was 26yds (per laser rangefinder) Tula group: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/409179/Tula_55gr-385045.JPG 55FMJ handload group: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/409179/Wolf55fmj_handload-385046.JPG Shooting position: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/409179/2017-12-03_14-385048.JPG Target: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/409179/2017-12-03_14-385049.JPG It does prove the point that nobody is getting 1 MOA all day long with M193... I guess somebody might argue they could with a scope. But whatever....... I'm pretty sure nobody has even put up a 2 MOA group. I think 3 MOA is about as small as we're seeing or a hair under. And even one of those was with handloads.  Actually that group does look to be around 2 MOA but it's handloads Hammermill, so you no get credit. 
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| I ask for no credit on any of that! I didn't even use the right optic anyway, just thought it was interesting...but I'll definitely try it again with a red dot, maybe irons. And I'll try to use some XM193 ammo too...no doubt, that stuff isn't 1moa ammo. I'd like to compare Tula to the XM193 on the same day. |
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Do you actually look through the sights with your RDS on? Or are you just looking at the dot in the top of the RDS over the top of the irons? I've heard people talk about using the aperture to crisp there dot up, but man if that doesn't get too busy for me. You're looking at the target, the front sight, the dot, the rear ap, and then to add to all of that, the housing. My head explodes. Too much going on for me. Now looking over the top of the irons, that works for me. But a lower 1/3 mount would be better for that of course. Although it will work with a standard mount too. I have not found my guns to like American Eagle 55 grain, .223 pressure. At least when it came in the red box. Now XM193 seems to shoot well in most of my guns. And I think that's marked "American Eagle" now too. So I'm not sure which one you mean. Quoted:
Quoted:
American Eagle 55 Grain, I didnt measure the group but the targets are the standard Army zero'ing targets. So the circle is like 4 mOA or so. I've heard people talk about using the aperture to crisp there dot up, but man if that doesn't get too busy for me. You're looking at the target, the front sight, the dot, the rear ap, and then to add to all of that, the housing. My head explodes. Too much going on for me. Now looking over the top of the irons, that works for me. But a lower 1/3 mount would be better for that of course. Although it will work with a standard mount too. I have not found my guns to like American Eagle 55 grain, .223 pressure. At least when it came in the red box. Now XM193 seems to shoot well in most of my guns. And I think that's marked "American Eagle" now too. So I'm not sure which one you mean. I dont follow what your saying in terms of using the aperture to crisp the dot. The only time I look at the irons, the target and the dot is when I mount a new dot on a rifle. If the irons are zero'ed, its a simple and fast rough zero to put the dot on the front sight as you aim on a point with the irons. Its not a solid zero but it'll be on paper for sure, and typically only require slight adjustment from there. |
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The only time I look at the irons, the target and the dot is when I mount a new dot on a rifle. If the irons are zero'ed, its a simple and fast rough zero to put the dot on the front sight as you aim on a point with the irons. Its not a solid zero but it'll be on paper for sure, and typically only require slight adjustment from there. |
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Quoted:
I dont follow what your saying in terms of using the aperture to crisp the dot. The only time I look at the irons, the target and the dot is when I mount a new dot on a rifle. If the irons are zero'ed, its a simple and fast rough zero to put the dot on the front sight as you aim on a point with the irons. Its not a solid zero but it'll be on paper for sure, and typically only require slight adjustment from there. |
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Quoted: I think what he's talking about is looking through the rear aperture turns a mis-shaped blob into an actual dot, at least for people that don't see a clear dot to start with. I do that sometimes but I don't have the front sight up, just the rear. Doesn't work for me with fixed irons. Also doesn't work well for me using a lower 1/3 mount if I zeroed the sight while basically centering the dot in the optic. The micro RDS I use, including the Aimpoint T1's, have pretty bad POI shift when lined up with the dot closer to the bottom edge of the sight window. I hope that makes sense. It looks like an older style M68 mount or the newer ACO mount. Don't know which. Actually, doesn't the ACO mount have a nut that needs a wrench and not a finger tightener? Some kind of weird nut.... So yours must be the older style M68 mount I'm guessing. And yeah, what hammermill is saying (although I'm applying it to the opposite direction) is that if you have a standard co witness mount, and you're looking over the top of the irons, the dot is not in the center of the optic and MAY experience some kind of parallax shift. Some optics show more shift than others...... He was saying if you have a lower 1/3 mount and line up the dot with your irons to get a rough zero, that same parallax shift might apply and throw your zero off from the irons. |
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JJREA, Thanks. I will run the numbers on the Rem-223 to verify. https://www.dropbox.com/s/v8dt7p3v37suj0o/Rem223Grp.PNG?raw=1 
I know why, I was thinking from corner to corner was 1/2" but I forgot about the pathagorean theorum and that distance is actually longer than 1/2". LOL. I swear I was good at geometry in school. Just been a long time. Actually, I don't know the exact length of those squares either, so... but you probably get my point. corner to corner is further than a parallel side to side. |
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Quoted: It does prove the point that nobody is getting 1 MOA all day long with M193... I guess somebody might argue they could with a scope.  " />
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Two five round groups fired a few days before this challenge started, this falls in line with my first five round groups using Wolf from the same rifle. At the distances involved, with the ammo stipulated optics are of marginal benefit in relation to group size, at least for me. |
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Ok JJ, I did it again with just a RDS. I lied about trying xm193...I couldn't remember where I put my stash of loose xm193 and didn't want to bust open a new case (I'm OCD like that). But, still tried an m193ish load.
10.5" LMT MRP with Mini-4 can Aimpoint T-1 (4moa dot) Tula 55gr FMJ again IMI Samson 55gr FMJ 55gr reload (just as a control sample) IMI Samson group, about 1.5" ctc: Attached File Tula group, about 1.25" ctc: Attached File Reloads group, about 0.75" ctc: Attached File The rifle: Attached File |
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I also tried this with one of my 5.45 AR's. Split into another post due to number of pics. M&P15R upper Free floated Burris FF3 on top of 3x scope (Would you like a side of chin weld with your height over bore?) Surplus 7n6 ammo Target, about 0.9" ctc: Attached File The rifle that shoots trash can ammo: Attached File |
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I also tried this with one of my 5.45 AR's. Split into another post due to number of pics. M&P15R upper Free floated Burris FF3 on top of 3x scope (Would you like a side of chin weld with your height over bore?) Surplus 7n6 ammo Target, about 0.9" ctc: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/409179/2017-12-10_15-386906.JPG The rifle that shoots trash can ammo: https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/409179/2017-12-10_14-386909.JPG Chin weld is so overblown on this sight. I've shot many times with optics on top of the carry handle and turn in respectable groups at 100. Also many other guns have a way higher cheek weld than standard AR iron sight. Especially when you scope them. But so many act like anything higher than iron sight height with an AR is a total detriment to good shooting. Pfffffffffft. Yes, a super tight cheek weld helps repeatability and help with precision. But it doesn't mean you're going to shoot like crap if it's a bit more generous than typical iron sight height. I actually find higher than standard more natural and more comfortable. |
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Quoted: I dig that 5.45. (actually your first one is pretty stinkin nice too) Thanks for throwing that in!!!! Chin weld is so overblown on this sight. I've shot many times with optics on top of the carry handle and turn in respectable groups at 100. Also many other guns have a way higher cheek weld than standard AR iron sight. Especially when you scope them. But so many act like anything higher than iron sight height with an AR is a total detriment to good shooting. Pfffffffffft. Yes, a super tight cheek weld helps repeatability and help with precision. But it doesn't mean you're going to shoot like crap if it's a bit more generous than typical iron sight height. I actually find higher than standard more natural and more comfortable. Great thread OP. I didn't have a bay I could shoot close range prone today or I would have had a group to embarrass myself with. 
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Quoted:
Chin weld is so overblown on this sight. I've shot many times with optics on top of the carry handle and turn in respectable groups at 100. Also many other guns have a way higher cheek weld than standard AR iron sight. Especially when you scope them. But so many act like anything higher than iron sight height with an AR is a total detriment to good shooting. Pfffffffffft. Yes, a super tight cheek weld helps repeatability and help with precision. But it doesn't mean you're going to shoot like crap if it's a bit more generous than typical iron sight height. I actually find higher than standard more natural and more comfortable. 
It's about an MOA detriment. For me, less comfortable except for maybe Offhand or bench. |
| This is reminding me I need to shoot irons more. Back in the day my 25m zeroing quail targets would have groups of right around 1" with an A2. I see a lot of others are doing about the same. I guess that's about as good as 855 shoots though so that's doing pretty good. |
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Quoted:
This is reminding me I need to shoot irons more. Back in the day my 25m zeroing quail targets would have groups of right around 1" with an A2. I see a lot of others are doing about the same. I guess that's about as good as 855 shoots though so that's doing pretty good.  Thumbs up!
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It's about an MOA detriment. For me, less comfortable except for maybe Offhand or bench. Typically it would be easier for me to shoot better at 100 yards with a scope on top of a carry handle compared to just irons. Especially with a carbine. I'm not sure how I'd do with an A2 20"er set up for HiPower with small sights and all that. Don't have one. Even with battle rifles 2 MOA is about as good as I'm getting with irons. ONE TIME, I got a 1-3/8" group with my Garand. Best iron sighted group I ever got. But it is not the norm. Point is, it works for me. And I have even done it prone. Many times. |
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I sure tried it and couldn't do it. I think if I kept doing it long enough it would eventually feel normal. That said I have a Nikon monarch set up in a carry handle mount to work up a load for the A1 clone so I will take another stab at it. Great thread OP. I didn't have a bay I could shoot close range prone today or I would have had a group to embarrass myself with. Looking forward to your results when you get to shoot it. |
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Quoted:
This is reminding me I need to shoot irons more. Back in the day my 25m zeroing quail targets would have groups of right around 1" with an A2. I see a lot of others are doing about the same. I guess that's about as good as 855 shoots though so that's doing pretty good. |
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I was cutting some trees today opening the lane of my shooting range a bit more and figured Id give this a go while the sun was setting. I had recently zeroed a Matech on my a4 but decided I like the carry handle better so I had to readjust the front sight (matech POI was way lower than the carry handle). I zero my ar15 irons and red dots at 50 for 50/200.
My range with target at 25m 
Colt AR15A4, Okay Ind. 20rd mag, IMI M193, cabelas shooting bags. 
Target was initially set at 50 meters. I fired three to the middle to see where I was hitting and adjusted down one click in elevation. I then fired three to the bottom left and kept elevation as is and adjusted one click left in windage. Once I was happy with this, I moved the target to 25m. Bottom right is 10 shots at 25 meters fired at a moderate pace. 
10 rounds IMI m193 
I figured Id also do a quick grouping with my Mak90 same front rest minus rear bag with tula FMJ and magpul 20rd mag 
10rds 7.62x39 FMJ 25m 
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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - 25 Meter BUIS/irons/rds challenge, show my how much better you can shoot than I can........ (Page 2 of 7)
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