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Posted: 8/31/2015 6:32:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/1/2015 6:05:52 PM EDT by nickforney]
I read a lot about guns and gear. Many writers focus on reviews of products they have been given and generally the review is optimistic and positive. This is terrifying to me because it gives new shooters reading the review the impression that what is being reviewed is something that will improve the rifle they have in a meaningful way.

Not always the case. I have shared breach bang clear articles here before as well as had great discussions on AR15 about what makes for precision rifles because there are lots of questions surrounding that.

http://www.breachbangclear.com/dont-build-a-shitbox-the-path-and-prioritizing/[Read it quick then come back and lets talk.



the path to enlightenment.
I am often times amazed at the number of times I see rifles with no light on them. I like to ask people about guns when I run into people at the range. Generally people mention that it can be used for self defense or home defense yet there is no light on the rifle. In Iowa we can hunt coyotes at night but not with lights. So my hunting rifle often times will have no light on it and it then falls into that no longer a general purpose rifle but now a special purpose rifle. In the article 3 gun or competition rifles are mentioned this is another great special purpose rifle a national match may focus on special slings, triggers and iron sights but lack the light and aiming devices a general purpose rifle would have.

This isn't a post about “weapon snobbery” but a post about priority of upgrades, and ultimately saving you money. Does it make sense to take care of aesthetics, secondary enhancements, or force multipliers first? What do you think when you see a beat to shit old ghetto ride with $2k rims? This is the same thing.
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I like rifles and have a lot of them. Many others on here are the same way so it is easy for us to impart onto new shooters that some things like your favorite buttstock or the geissele series of rails are go to for you and they should get them too. The thing to remember is that a new shooter may only have a limited budget. The question comes a lot about a shooter have x number of dollars and wanting suggestions and in response people give them what they would do completely forgetting about those consumables in a number of mags and most importantly ammunition for training.

Magazines, ammunition, and training are constants. These are the consumables. They are the Watchers. They should always be in the back of your mind. Waiting. Giving you the hard look. And expecting respect and attention. All the time. Recognize and take heed. Anything less is just Instagram.
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The author uses the term 'widgets' and it doesn't have a firm space on the hierarchy listed. At what point should you buy your angled foregrip that you saw on facebook and looked so cool. Honestly if you have to ask you probably shouldn't be buying it. Even if it means two or three boxes of ammo you have wasted that those boxes of ammo on a trinket that isn't furthering your shooting.

Beyond the optic, every improvement you make will be largely incremental. I'm not saying this in a negative manner--any improvement is still improvement. There are distinct advantages to free floating forends and better triggers and improved controls, and I have all of those too. Just don't put them first on the list. Allocate your spending accordingly.
View Quote


Allocate your spending accordingly wow that should be gospel or something. Incremental advancement is a great thing. I have had bolt rifles that can shoot incredible tight groups. As a hobby and a passion nothing made me happier than seeing some small incremental change in the focus of shooting or the creating of the rounds I was firing result in a smaller group. For a general purpose rifle though this isn't the end all be all. You don't want to fall into the camp that says awe well its 'minute of man' at 100 thats all that matters and yet those small advancements in your gear could have also likely been made up in soft skill advancements with an equal monetary value in training or ammo.

What you guys think? Anything in the wrong slot in your opinion? Anyone else like me and buy up a bunch of junk that was worthless in the beginning only to find out that soft skills can't be bought?
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 6:59:21 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 8/31/2015 7:00:45 PM EDT by NCFLAR15]
Amen.

I am about to build my first AR for range/hd use, and when I am done it will have an rds, a light, and a burs. That's it. If you see me put anything else on it, feel free to e-slap me.

KISS is the protocol.

Would rather spend the kid's college money on ammo and mags.
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 7:16:42 PM EDT
Been through the cycle that goes like this.

1) By a cheap AR because its all I can afford.
2) Tapco-fuck it because its all I can afford and I've seen pictures on the interwebs about all the things I need to put on it
3) Hate how heavy my rifle is with all this cheap Chinese crap on it
4) Take crap off, put some name brand stuff on it because I saw it on ARFCOM
5) Hate how heavy my rifle is with all this name brand crap on it
6) Take a few carbine courses, realize some of the crap helps, but most is dead weight
7) Streamline my rifle...keeping nothing more than a light on the rail, a good sling, and a stock that fits me
8) Enjoy shooting my rifle so much I shoot it more, and realize that its pretty accurate and I should spend some $$ on optics
9) Buy a knock off aim point. Works well but batteries last 2 weeks. Liked the fake-point enough I decide I should save up for a real Aimpoint
10) Buy a real Aimpoint. WORKS REALLY DAMN well and still running on the same batteries years later.
11) Decide that batteries might not last forever, and I might need some magnification, and that being able to see the reticle in low light is a good thing
12) Buy an ACOG and pay more for it than the rifle cost me in the first place
13) Realize I really like AR's and shoot them really well.
14) Start reloading because I shoot so much.
15) Shoot more because I reload so much
16) Decide to build special purpose rifles for unique applications (20" with scope for long range and varmits, 10.5" Silenced SBR, KISS truck gun, M4gery, M16A4gery, ....)
17) Decide FDE is the coolest, so replace all my furniture with FDE parts.
18) Find out the cool kids are now running UDE, so sell FDE for UDE
19) Realize that what I really should do is rattle can it and throw it down the driveway, so sell all the UDE stuff for plain black, and paint it up
20) Remember when I just had 1 AR and how much simpler, yet boring my life was, and how much extra money I had for things like food and clothes
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 7:42:11 PM EDT
One problem with the analogy...

With firearms, if it works, and works reliably, it ain't a "junker"....
Link Posted: 8/31/2015 7:48:52 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jblomenberg16:
Been through the cycle that goes like this.

1) By a cheap AR because its all I can afford.
2) Tapco-fuck it because its all I can afford and I've seen pictures on the interwebs about all the things I need to put on it
3) Hate how heavy my rifle is with all this cheap Chinese crap on it
4) Take crap off, put some name brand stuff on it because I saw it on ARFCOM
5) Hate how heavy my rifle is with all this name brand crap on it
6) Take a few carbine courses, realize some of the crap helps, but most is dead weight
7) Streamline my rifle...keeping nothing more than a light on the rail, a good sling, and a stock that fits me
8) Enjoy shooting my rifle so much I shoot it more, and realize that its pretty accurate and I should spend some $$ on optics
9) Buy a knock off aim point. Works well but batteries last 2 weeks. Liked the fake-point enough I decide I should save up for a real Aimpoint
10) Buy a real Aimpoint. WORKS REALLY DAMN well and still running on the same batteries years later.
11) Decide that batteries might not last forever, and I might need some magnification, and that being able to see the reticle in low light is a good thing
12) Buy an ACOG and pay more for it than the rifle cost me in the first place
13) Realize I really like AR's and shoot them really well.
14) Start reloading because I shoot so much.
15) Shoot more because I reload so much
16) Decide to build special purpose rifles for unique applications (20" with scope for long range and varmits, 10.5" Silenced SBR, KISS truck gun, M4gery, M16A4gery, ....)
17) Decide FDE is the coolest, so replace all my furniture with FDE parts.
18) Find out the cool kids are now running UDE, so sell FDE for UDE
19) Realize that what I really should do is rattle can it and throw it down the driveway, so sell all the UDE stuff for plain black, and paint it up
20) Remember when I just had 1 AR and how much simpler, yet boring my life was, and how much extra money I had for things like food and clothes
View Quote


#20
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 2:24:36 PM EDT
I'd like to read the article referenced in the OP, but the link (This article) just takes me to a bigger version of the picture that's right underneath it.
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 2:26:50 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By fireman325:
I'd like to read the article referenced in the OP, but the link (This article) just takes me to a bigger version of the picture that's right underneath it.
View Quote


http://www.breachbangclear.com/dont-build-a-shitbox-the-path-and-prioritizing/
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 2:30:22 PM EDT
Sorry I don't see the need for a sling.
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 2:35:29 PM EDT
How do you carry your rifle? Have you ever used a sling for support when shooting off hand? I would argue that a good sling might be one of the most important additions to any rifle.
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 3:18:42 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Gacksnabbit:


#20
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Originally Posted By Gacksnabbit:
Originally Posted By jblomenberg16:
Been through the cycle that goes like this.

1) By a cheap AR because its all I can afford.
2) Tapco-fuck it because its all I can afford and I've seen pictures on the interwebs about all the things I need to put on it
3) Hate how heavy my rifle is with all this cheap Chinese crap on it
4) Take crap off, put some name brand stuff on it because I saw it on ARFCOM
5) Hate how heavy my rifle is with all this name brand crap on it
6) Take a few carbine courses, realize some of the crap helps, but most is dead weight
7) Streamline my rifle...keeping nothing more than a light on the rail, a good sling, and a stock that fits me
8) Enjoy shooting my rifle so much I shoot it more, and realize that its pretty accurate and I should spend some $$ on optics
9) Buy a knock off aim point. Works well but batteries last 2 weeks. Liked the fake-point enough I decide I should save up for a real Aimpoint
10) Buy a real Aimpoint. WORKS REALLY DAMN well and still running on the same batteries years later.
11) Decide that batteries might not last forever, and I might need some magnification, and that being able to see the reticle in low light is a good thing
12) Buy an ACOG and pay more for it than the rifle cost me in the first place
13) Realize I really like AR's and shoot them really well.
14) Start reloading because I shoot so much.
15) Shoot more because I reload so much
16) Decide to build special purpose rifles for unique applications (20" with scope for long range and varmits, 10.5" Silenced SBR, KISS truck gun, M4gery, M16A4gery, ....)
17) Decide FDE is the coolest, so replace all my furniture with FDE parts.
18) Find out the cool kids are now running UDE, so sell FDE for UDE
19) Realize that what I really should do is rattle can it and throw it down the driveway, so sell all the UDE stuff for plain black, and paint it up
20) Remember when I just had 1 AR and how much simpler, yet boring my life was, and how much extra money I had for things like food and clothes


#20

Pretty close......
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 5:19:20 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By tctlrld:
Originally Posted By fireman325:
I'd like to read the article referenced in the OP, but the link (This article) just takes me to a bigger version of the picture that's right underneath it.


http://www.breachbangclear.com/dont-build-a-shitbox-the-path-and-prioritizing/


Thanks.
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 6:09:57 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By GeorgiaBII:
Sorry I don't see the need for a sling.
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Originally Posted By GeorgiaBII:
Sorry I don't see the need for a sling.


This really falls under a law enforcement and police thing. Learning to shoot with a sling in the style of the appleseed shoots can yield great accuracy. I didn't use a sling but instead had wolf hooks for most of my deployments. Having the ability to go hands on with someone with out having to completely let go of your rifle is a pretty big advantage. For military use I thought that undisciplined soldiers relied on the sling to carry the weapon and would quickly get on people who didn't have hands on a weapon.

There are many good reasons to have a sling on a rifle while there are few to not have one and most of the reasons not to fall under the specialized catagory. The added value of a QUALITY sling is huge for the 40 or so dollars you are spending compared to say added a magpul stock or something stupid like that.

Originally Posted By tctlrld:
Originally Posted By fireman325:
I'd like to read the article referenced in the OP, but the link (This article) just takes me to a bigger version of the picture that's right underneath it.


http://www.breachbangclear.com/dont-build-a-shitbox-the-path-and-prioritizing/

I clearly messed up the hyperlink. Thanks
Link Posted: 9/1/2015 10:48:16 PM EDT
I just put a decal on my AR and I'm good
Link Posted: 9/3/2015 12:58:06 PM EDT
Really, really good stuff OP. Thanks for sharing.

Totally agree on the sling. I have a .22 rifle that has no sling and it's a pain in the neck. I don't sling up for shooting much, but it's definitely essential kit. I still don't understand lights though. I got an RDS instead and like it. But since mine isn't an HD rifle and I don't hunt, a light seemed like $200 I didn't need to spend. It'll happen eventually, but not soon.

As far as grips and stocks, I would consider those essential kit and part of the base rifle in the list. If you can't shoot the rifle well because of the terrible, awful, painful, atrocity of a grip they call the A2, then you should replace it. Same goes for the stock. The rifle needs to be useable.

Now I feel guilty that I built an M4gery and am collecting parts for two other builds and I haven't put nearly enough rounds through my basic middy w/ irons. It's fun to buy stuff.
Link Posted: 9/3/2015 2:11:41 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jblomenberg16:
Been through the cycle that goes like this.

1) By a cheap AR because its all I can afford.
2) Tapco-fuck it because its all I can afford and I've seen pictures on the interwebs about all the things I need to put on it
3) Hate how heavy my rifle is with all this cheap Chinese crap on it
4) Take crap off, put some name brand stuff on it because I saw it on ARFCOM
5) Hate how heavy my rifle is with all this name brand crap on it
6) Take a few carbine courses, realize some of the crap helps, but most is dead weight
7) Streamline my rifle...keeping nothing more than a light on the rail, a good sling, and a stock that fits me
8) Enjoy shooting my rifle so much I shoot it more, and realize that its pretty accurate and I should spend some $$ on optics
9) Buy a knock off aim point. Works well but batteries last 2 weeks. Liked the fake-point enough I decide I should save up for a real Aimpoint
10) Buy a real Aimpoint. WORKS REALLY DAMN well and still running on the same batteries years later.
11) Decide that batteries might not last forever, and I might need some magnification, and that being able to see the reticle in low light is a good thing
12) Buy an ACOG and pay more for it than the rifle cost me in the first place
13) Realize I really like AR's and shoot them really well.
14) Start reloading because I shoot so much.
15) Shoot more because I reload so much
16) Decide to build special purpose rifles for unique applications (20" with scope for long range and varmits, 10.5" Silenced SBR, KISS truck gun, M4gery, M16A4gery, ....)
17) Decide FDE is the coolest, so replace all my furniture with FDE parts.
18) Find out the cool kids are now running UDE, so sell FDE for UDE
19) Realize that what I really should do is rattle can it and throw it down the driveway, so sell all the UDE stuff for plain black, and paint it up
20) Remember when I just had 1 AR and how much simpler, yet boring my life was, and how much extra money I had for things like food and clothes
View Quote





Sounds about right
Link Posted: 9/3/2015 2:13:15 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By GeorgiaBII:
Sorry I don't see the need for a sling.
View Quote



What are you going to do when you need to drag your best friend out of the fire zone?
LEO's know they need to if they're going to hand cuff someone, assuming they are stuck w/o back up or both officers have long guns and the suspect needs to be hand cuffed.

Lots of situations will crop up where a sling will be important.
Link Posted: 9/3/2015 7:29:47 PM EDT
For me, it’s about trying to define the purpose of the rifle. Do I want a self-defense gun, or SPR. Something precise, or something more general. Do I know my limits, do I set my own limits (ex: light weight builds) and/or are my own limits misguided.

I also have to look at my expectations and what is realistic. A lot of stuff may look cool, but is it adding to the bottom line. I expect a 14.5” lightweight build to shoot better than minute of man, but I know that unless I pay attention to what barrel I’m using and what I’m putting through it, say m193 or Tula, I’m not shooting 3 inch groups at 300 yards. That just can’t be done consistently by most shooters, but if I want to put a RDS and light on, sure, it could make a great cost effective AND fun rifle. It just won’t be taking out crow eyes at 200 yards.

Do I want an SPR? Am I okay with the weight that may be incurred?? What about a RECCE? I might want one of those, but it might also end up being all over the place, and certainly weigh more than a pencil barreled 14.5”.

When it comes to glass, do I pay so much for a rifle that I can’t afford anything to put on top? Am I kidding myself about putting $2,000 scopes on a $500 rifle kit I found on sale? Say I want to build a lightweight build, and now I want to put some 36 oz boat anchor of an optic on there, what was point?

If I don’t know what I want a rifle to be, then I’m not sure I need to buy/build it. If someone is looking to just have fun, then by all means, just have fun, but know what you're getting.
Link Posted: 9/4/2015 12:03:50 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/4/2015 12:34:04 AM EDT by MILSPEC556]
Good stuff Nick.

I think we all start out buying the high speed shit that looks cool, or "Costa/Haley uses"

I really think as far as a rifle and accessories goes for a new AR owner should be as follows.

-Research, find out what brands/rifles have a good track record in your price range. Go for dependability obviously. (Try to wade through the fanboys if possible)

-You bought said rifle, now should come ammo, a few mags, maybe a sling, make sure it has sights, and shoot the piss out of it (get training if you can) and keep buying ammo.

-By this point (assuming you actually did the above) you should have a basic understanding of what you think you want and how your rifle works. If it will play an HD role get a quality weaponlight (Surefire, Insight, WML, etc) If you need a quad rail get one, maybe try out a VFG and see if it's for you or not. P.S.- the waffle stock works just damn fine.

Notes- Don't think you need a free float rail for home defense. A free float will give you ZERO advantages in HD range

-Buy the optic for what you need. Don't buy a high magnification scope for HD, I can't tell you how many times I've seen this. It's a waste of money, and if you aren't familiar with point shooting, it could really fuck your day up in a bad situation. Buy a quality Red dot sight. (Aimpoint, EOTech, MRO, etc)

- I guess the last note would be always buy quality if this is for HD. I've known a few guys that keep buying the cheaper Bushnell red dots that break in 2 months, and they just keep buying another. By the time you buy 4 you couldve had a quality optic. Just don't buy or add anything you don't need.

And just remember, the A2 grip, waffle stock, F marked front sight base, and standard MIL-SPEC trigger has been killing mofos for decades. Alot of new guys act like these 4 things are garbage and ditch it all for magpul and flip-up fronts with low pro gas blocks. Then they wonder why their rifle started short stroking after the install.

If it aint broke don't fix it. If you don't need it, don't buy it.



Link Posted: 9/4/2015 2:32:13 AM EDT
Lights make easy targets

I think people care way to much about brands, "brand whoring"
I have never seen an unreliable ar (besides 22lr, so ammo pick)
Link Posted: 9/4/2015 3:30:48 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/4/2015 3:36:02 AM EDT by MILSPEC556]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By arunit:
Lights make easy targets

I think people care way to much about brands, "brand whoring"
I have never seen an unreliable ar (besides 22lr, so ammo pick)
View Quote

Well, I agree with 1 of these 3 comments.
Link Posted: 9/4/2015 11:37:39 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By arunit:
Lights make easy targets

I think people care way to much about brands, "brand whoring"
I have never seen an unreliable ar (besides 22lr, so ammo pick)
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By arunit:
Lights make easy targets

I think people care way to much about brands, "brand whoring"
I have never seen an unreliable ar (besides 22lr, so ammo pick)

no no no no no. Understanding the way lights work do not make you an easy target. You need to upgrade your lumen science. Brand whoring is alive and well there is actually a thread about brand bias in the basics forum. There are definitely unreliable AR's out there simply getting a solid Wednesday gun does not mean that the same company doesn't push out some god awful Monday and Friday guns.

I am not expecting you to read these as generally people are set in their ways but someone else may wander along and want to know more about what others with lots of time behind the buttstock have to say about it.
Here are TWO great threads about what parts fail and in some cases the companies that surround them. I have some high round count guns but nothing in comparison to the number the guys at battlefield las vegas shoot up in a week. You can see a thread RIGHT HERE where they talk about pinch points where components have generally failed with heavy use. Note that they use quality known components. Simply saying that you have never seen an unreliable AR means that you have not shot a lot of AR's.

The other great thread for new guys or even some older hands who want to get a few spare part for the coming of the morbidly obese zombie apocalypse is the what parts fail thread FOUND RIGHT HERE! it starts off a bit slow but lots of lessons learned over the years by other people breaking guns at carbine courses.
The wise man learns from someone else’s mistakes, the smart man learns from his own, and the stupid one never learns.
Link Posted: 9/4/2015 12:39:46 PM EDT

I like!


Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By jblomenberg16:
Been through the cycle that goes like this.

1) By a cheap AR because its all I can afford.
2) Tapco-fuck it because its all I can afford and I've seen pictures on the interwebs about all the things I need to put on it
3) Hate how heavy my rifle is with all this cheap Chinese crap on it
4) Take crap off, put some name brand stuff on it because I saw it on ARFCOM
5) Hate how heavy my rifle is with all this name brand crap on it
6) Take a few carbine courses, realize some of the crap helps, but most is dead weight
7) Streamline my rifle...keeping nothing more than a light on the rail, a good sling, and a stock that fits me
8) Enjoy shooting my rifle so much I shoot it more, and realize that its pretty accurate and I should spend some $$ on optics
9) Buy a knock off aim point. Works well but batteries last 2 weeks. Liked the fake-point enough I decide I should save up for a real Aimpoint
10) Buy a real Aimpoint. WORKS REALLY DAMN well and still running on the same batteries years later.
11) Decide that batteries might not last forever, and I might need some magnification, and that being able to see the reticle in low light is a good thing
12) Buy an ACOG and pay more for it than the rifle cost me in the first place
13) Realize I really like AR's and shoot them really well.
14) Start reloading because I shoot so much.
15) Shoot more because I reload so much
16) Decide to build special purpose rifles for unique applications (20" with scope for long range and varmits, 10.5" Silenced SBR, KISS truck gun, M4gery, M16A4gery, ....)
17) Decide FDE is the coolest, so replace all my furniture with FDE parts.
18) Find out the cool kids are now running UDE, so sell FDE for UDE
19) Realize that what I really should do is rattle can it and throw it down the driveway, so sell all the UDE stuff for plain black, and paint it up
20) Remember when I just had 1 AR and how much simpler, yet boring my life was, and how much extra money I had for things like food and clothes
View Quote

Link Posted: 9/4/2015 1:17:20 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/4/2015 1:24:26 PM EDT by uglygun]
I do not feel that a light is more necessary than an optic.

I have lights available and handy but it may be that I have more use for an optic for low light situations than a light.

A purely home defense rifle I may not want a sling on either.


For my department rifle the sling is a huge priority before optic or light. But if I had to decide between optic or light... i would take the optic. My 100 yard qual target group sizes shrank by roughly half from a change from A2 irons to a cowitnessed dot Aimpoint CompM. To the extent that dropping to prone from standing I can get 5 shots into a nice small group. On rare occasion where gods are smiling on me I have had nearly 3 shots touching and other 2 shots pushing group open to about 3 MOA. That simply didnt happen as often with iron sights. My speed and precision are much higher with the red dot than with the irons.

Light has uses but I do not have a light on my rifle as standard. It has a handguard rail I added so I can take my X300 off my sidearm and attach it if need be.

But I love my Aimpoint.


I have 5 personal ARs. Some are specialized to things like varminting. My home defense rifle does have a light on it but it rarely comes out of the safe. My sidearm sees more use as primary defensive gun as it stays within arms reach at all times.
Link Posted: 9/4/2015 1:34:22 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/4/2015 1:36:48 PM EDT by MRW]
Link Posted: 9/4/2015 2:14:00 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MRW:
Good discussion.

My list for expenses after a basic purchase are:


1. quality ammo
2. quality optic
3. quality trigger


I'm pondering the proposition of a light. my hesitation is that if I am in close enough contact to need the light, I will be using a pistol. I expect targets needing a rifle at night will be too far away to be effectively engaged with a light.

And a sling is a holster for a rifle- a must have.

View Quote

I would have to disagree with the trigger. (Remember this is the newbie forum)

I don't see any reason in the world a new AR owner should buy a Geissele right away.
Link Posted: 9/4/2015 3:50:53 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/4/2015 3:51:30 PM EDT by MRW]
Link Posted: 9/4/2015 4:27:00 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By MRW:
I did not specify a Geissele. "quality" does not mean "super duper match extreme"

a smooth stock trigger would not need upgrading.


An ACT trigger would be a good upgrade if the stock trigger is gritty or full of creep. But I would place good ammunition and an optic first
View Quote

I gotcha. I guess an ACT wouldn't hurt, but at the same time i still feel a new AR owner should give the stock rifle a whirl before swapping things out.

The ACT is definitely an improvement over a gritty trigger tho. I can't deny that one bit.
Link Posted: 9/4/2015 5:07:24 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By MILSPEC556:

I gotcha. I guess an ACT wouldn't hurt, but at the same time i still feel a new AR owner should give the stock rifle a whirl before swapping things out.

The ACT is definitely an improvement over a gritty trigger tho. I can't deny that one bit.
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Originally Posted By MILSPEC556:
Originally Posted By MRW:
I did not specify a Geissele. "quality" does not mean "super duper match extreme"

a smooth stock trigger would not need upgrading.


An ACT trigger would be a good upgrade if the stock trigger is gritty or full of creep. But I would place good ammunition and an optic first

I gotcha. I guess an ACT wouldn't hurt, but at the same time i still feel a new AR owner should give the stock rifle a whirl before swapping things out.

The ACT is definitely an improvement over a gritty trigger tho. I can't deny that one bit.


Agreed 100%. There's nothing wrong with the stock trigger for a new shooter. Plus, you might just get lucky like I did and have one good enough that you don't need an ACT etc.

But you'll never find out unless you start putting beans down the pipe. Lots of 'em.
Link Posted: 9/6/2015 1:36:25 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By uglygun:
I do not feel that a light is more necessary than an optic.

I have lights available and handy but it may be that I have more use for an optic for low light situations than a light.

A purely home defense rifle I may not want a sling on either.


For my department rifle the sling is a huge priority before optic or light. But if I had to decide between optic or light... i would take the optic. My 100 yard qual target group sizes shrank by roughly half from a change from A2 irons to a cowitnessed dot Aimpoint CompM. To the extent that dropping to prone from standing I can get 5 shots into a nice small group. On rare occasion where gods are smiling on me I have had nearly 3 shots touching and other 2 shots pushing group open to about 3 MOA. That simply didnt happen as often with iron sights. My speed and precision are much higher with the red dot than with the irons.

Light has uses but I do not have a light on my rifle as standard. It has a handguard rail I added so I can take my X300 off my sidearm and attach it if need be.

But I love my Aimpoint.


I have 5 personal ARs. Some are specialized to things like varminting. My home defense rifle does have a light on it but it rarely comes out of the safe. My sidearm sees more use as primary defensive gun as it stays within arms reach at all times.
View Quote


I'd respectfully disagree. How do you get PID in "low light situations" without a light? Using a handheld light with a rifle is certainly awkward as fuck, so I'm guessing you don't do that (I've got some personal experience with this one).

IMO, I'd take the slightly larger groups with irons if it meant I could positively ID what I was shooting at.
Link Posted: 9/6/2015 1:39:55 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By MRW:
Good discussion.

My list for expenses after a basic purchase are:


1. quality ammo
2. quality optic
3. quality trigger


I'm pondering the proposition of a light. my hesitation is that if I am in close enough contact to need the light, I will be using a pistol. I expect targets needing a rifle at night will be too far away to be effectively engaged with a light.

And a sling is a holster for a rifle- a must have.

View Quote


I think we're probably getting outside the scope of this thread, but why would you transition to a sidearm at close range if you've already got the long gun in hand? I'd take the long gun 10 times out of 10, no matter the range, if it was at my disposal when I needed it.

FWIW, if you're LEO, there are quite a few offerings that have decent enough throw for just about any reasonable distance you're likely to encounter.
Link Posted: 9/6/2015 10:14:10 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/6/2015 10:19:23 AM EDT by winddummy82]
great topic Nick!



last week at the adjacent lane a new shooter showed up with his brand spanking new tacticool AR. everything and the kitchen sink was on it. he openly laughed at my stock RRA NM4 until the range went hot. at 100 yards you could cover all my 5 shot groups with a silver dollar. mr. tacticool couldn't hit paper. I helped him zero and then sat back and watched him shoot 5 round 10"-12" size groups. I left chuckling. I couldn't resist telling him he should of bought a barebones stock rifle. tacticool doesn't make you shoot like Waldron!

Link Posted: 9/7/2015 6:34:52 PM EDT
everyone's experience & goals are different.

as soon as I get a lower I order a RRA2 stage match trigger, a BCM gunfighter charging handel mod 4 and a matech BUIS. these are my standard upgrades I am debating adding a BAD lever to the list (see hand comment below). but I need more time using them.

VFG I had never liked them or used them but now have them on my patrol rifles things change my lefty hand loss sensation i need the VFG now.

slings- I honestly hate them they snag, get in the way of more useful accessories & in the arfcom world are just stupid price wise. $60 for a sling -

Trigger - this IMO is very important i PREFER THE rra nm 3.5lbs 2 stage varmit trigger they cost 70-80 dollars the only trigger I have found i like better is te ar gold trigger at around $400ish that's big price jump for very little performance increase.

light I have spent more time wasted more money & been less satisfied here than anything else. I finally dumped surefire and went to streamlight's series and am almost happy. I have little faith in the belief that a light will help in a home defense crisis, but I learned clearing rooms in Baghdad that there are lots of dark closets out there. I like a 120 lumen minimum. but the 630 lumens of the tlr-1hl is awesome, but too bright for indoor use.

my preference is cr123 batteries, & can be taken on & off wit out tools I dislike tape switches but have not abandoned the concept yet..

optics just suck it up and get an ACOG and sleep well. I make no bones about my preference for eotech I hate aimpoints with a passion. but they are better in a few respects but not worth e godlike reputation they have here.

rails I prefer KAC I have used free float rails but don't like them as much it depends is the rifle for target or patrol use.
Link Posted: 9/12/2015 10:45:49 AM EDT
IMO, sling is debatable. Not as important as some of the things on there. FWIW, I have a sling for every rifle though...

Trigger, though, before optic. This is a personal preference as I can't stand milspec triggers. They function and I can shoot with them just fine, but I've been spoiled and the trigger is a must for me. Once you go SSA-E, you never go back.

Lights, I only have two. I don't keep them on a rifle but keep them with my rifles. They are quick and easy enough to put on if need be. Though, I understand that having it on a HD rifle or the such would be a must as I may not have time to do that in a bad situation. I keep my TLR on my Sig P320 though for HD so there's that.


Just my opinion. good article and very useful otherwise.
Link Posted: 9/12/2015 11:50:02 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By slowmethinks:
IMO, sling is debatable. Not as important as some of the things on there. FWIW, I have a sling for every rifle though...

Trigger, though, before optic. This is a personal preference as I can't stand milspec triggers. They function and I can shoot with them just fine, but I've been spoiled and the trigger is a must for me. Once you go SSA-E, you never go back.

Lights, I only have two. I don't keep them on a rifle but keep them with my rifles. They are quick and easy enough to put on if need be. Though, I understand that having it on a HD rifle or the such would be a must as I may not have time to do that in a bad situation. I keep my TLR on my Sig P320 though for HD so there's that.


Just my opinion. good article and very useful otherwise.
View Quote

Rock on.

I think it is easy to get channelized or tunnel vision of sorts on what we do with our rifles. If you throw it in a case and hit the range then come back home then you don't really need a sling on it. It is easy to then turn to others and say you don't need a sling. Can you imagine doing cola warrior if you had to carry your rifle through the entire event? I think the mil swayed me in the negative for rifles on slings because of the bulk in our body armor and the requirement to carry so much shit. I always had an assault pack loaded with rounds and the sling choices were somewhat limited because of rules or simply what was available. I generally stuck with wolf clips for that reason just a way to hook the rifle to my body if I needed to use hands. I have gotten away from many things the military smashed into my brain like carrying everything I will possibly need. I can get a hell of a lot done with a bare bones rifle and everything that I am adding to it is flair.

Again mostly pointing this too the new shooter. Hobbyists can justify what ever they are doing because it is a hobby or a toy with the added stuff as long as it isn't getting in the way of the actual rifle operation. (like the bad lever does.)
Link Posted: 9/12/2015 12:10:31 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/12/2015 12:44:08 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/12/2015 1:00:33 PM EDT by nickforney]
what is the rubber looking stuff on the butt stock? Did you get tired of losing beard hairs?


Im not some cool guy but I thought about trying to make a video to find things that one gun could do and the other couldn't. Thought I could even swap back to an A2 grip just to make things as cut and dry as I could. I have a safe full of rifles but I also have a bench full of reloading stuff and cases of ammo. If you are buying just the gun stuff and you aren't putting rounds down range it is all for nothing anyway but I think it is really valuable if you are going to have some kind of mindset where the rifle is more than just a range toy to take the green laser light combo you got on sportsmans guide off and stick with simple no shit it works stuff.




I should figure out the difference in cost on these rifles. I think it might hurt my brain and make me rage on the EE selling off stuff I don't really need.
Note the key important stuff that both have. Red dot for quick pick up. Sling to holster the gun when you need to use your hands and to stabilize in any position(*) and light because some times fights happen at night.(**)

(*) a note about slings to remember is that slings can serve as more than just a way to have your rifle not in your hands. A quality sling should be able to form sling support to aid in stand up fighting.

(**) Lumens need to be big. Note the black gun has just a pistol light on it and both of the lights are very low on the lumen count. I have the 500 lumen wml version but figured I would make the rifles as similar as possible and the a2 mount won't let me mount a wml there. Tape switches and crazy mounts are all find and good but you need to be able to turn on and off your light with ease in the middle of the fight but at the same time not have the light come on or off at any point that you don't want it to. I have seen more and more lights on the 'wrong' side of the gun with a tape switch coming over to ease activation. What if the tape fails? What if you are leaning against a wall and the push button on the light is exposed to be activated when you don't want it to. These are all stupid little things that play into these important few items that you just need to have.
Link Posted: 9/12/2015 2:17:37 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By uglygun:
I do not feel that a light is more necessary than an optic.

I have lights available and handy but it may be that I have more use for an optic for low light situations than a light.

A purely home defense rifle I may not want a sling on either.


For my department rifle the sling is a huge priority before optic or light. But if I had to decide between optic or light... i would take the optic. My 100 yard qual target group sizes shrank by roughly half from a change from A2 irons to a cowitnessed dot Aimpoint CompM. To the extent that dropping to prone from standing I can get 5 shots into a nice small group. On rare occasion where gods are smiling on me I have had nearly 3 shots touching and other 2 shots pushing group open to about 3 MOA. That simply didnt happen as often with iron sights. My speed and precision are much higher with the red dot than with the irons.

Light has uses but I do not have a light on my rifle as standard. It has a handguard rail I added so I can take my X300 off my sidearm and attach it if need be.

But I love my Aimpoint.


I have 5 personal ARs. Some are specialized to things like varminting. My home defense rifle does have a light on it but it rarely comes out of the safe. My sidearm sees more use as primary defensive gun as it stays within arms reach at all times.
View Quote


Can't shoot your target of you can't positively identify it. Well...you can...but plenty of people are living with the fact they killed their own loved ones because they shot at a figure in the dark. You need to see your sights AND your target.
Link Posted: 9/12/2015 3:38:24 PM EDT
Link Posted: 9/12/2015 4:44:48 PM EDT
Great thread Nick!

You are making me think and look back on my own progression and why.

As for the list and this is focusing on a GP rifle assuming the role of an HD rifle as well.

Base Rifle: Tons of quality AR's out there now but everyone also puts out problem rifles so before anything is bought as an upgrade the rifle MUST be shot and shot lots! I'd say with steel case and brass if you plan on training with any significant amount of time steel case will most likely be your main training ammo, unless you are rolling in the dough... Nothing changed just a base rifle with IRON sight. You must make sure you rifle works and is accurate and that you are accurate with a base, out of the box rifle before you buy anything else. You should probably run through at least 500 rounds of ammo as well to meet the "standard" reliability mark used with most pistols (at least as ToddG proclaims on Pistol-Training.com).

Why? To learn the rifle and nothing else. How in the world can you tell what is better if you don't know basic?

My progression: I started with a DPMS M4 with a quad rail because it was awesome looking and it I wanted to bolt something to it I could. Then when I started building my own I went with Spike's lowers because ARFcom said they were good. Then I picked up PSA lowers and I've been happy with those as well. The DPMS is the only AR I've bought that I haven't built.

Sights: Irons, I think that EVERYONE should start with IRONS. See the base rifle reasons. As an upgrade I would say that if one is going to stick with irons then depending on what they expect out of it perhaps some Trijicon night sights should be added if is to be used in an HD role but before that a light is cheaper and better for that role anyway. So again, after the basic purpose of learning to use irons I don't see the point for really upgrade this at all. The only caveat would be if you are working on getting as much precision out of irons as you can then some KNS front sight post that are a fraction of the width of a standard mil spec front sight post are could be switched out. But I say "sights" as an upgrade is pointless unless that upgrade is to an optic.

My progression: I love irons, RDS are faster and on an HD rifle I think are the only "sights" upgrade that are needed but this comes after a light. I have KNS front sight post I haven't switched out yet... This is also why I use a shotgun as my HD weapon, it has a light... I haven't put on any of my AR's... yeah, I know...

Lights: For an HD rifle it is the first thing that should be added after putting that 500 + rounds down range. Nothing else can be said. For an HD weapon you need to be able to ID your target and see your sights, point shooting not withstanding... But on a GP rifle, I can’t say you really need a light. The only time as a civilian that I would need a weapons light is in and or around my home and more so just in my home. The only weapon I am using at night in my home is my HD weapon with it’s light. Then there is always the light switch argument.

My progression: I don't have a light on my AR’s, I am lazy and use my 590 with a Surefire forearm light...

Sling: Could go with or without. Why do you need one? Long range accuracy, comfortable carry over long distances, weapons retention. Only one of those falls under HD. In the GP category yes, a sling is more in the "need" category. As a pure HD role, 50/50. After that which sling, single point, 2 point, 3 point. You have to try them out and see which works for what you want. As a base line HD rifle, can't say it's a must. As a base line GP rifle I would lean more to a must.

My progression: Competition gun is a single point Magpul, it works for what I want. It is not comfortable at all. Hunting I use a Blackhawk 3 point and it's comfortable to hike all day with. My HD gun, I had a 3 point. I took it off. Found it more in the way and a hindrance if I need to grab a kid and change firing hands. Weapons retention? I've learned and trained up on long arm weapons retention, IMHO that is more important than a sling in that role. If I was to put a sling back on an HD weapon it would be a single point to allow more mobility to switch firing hands with ease.

Optic:RDS for a GP. If you plan on it filling any HD role then there is no reason to put anything else on it IMO. If you want a powered optic of any kind I think you reduce it’s effectiveness in an HD role, unless you add a mini RDS to it…

My progression: I have my “Safe Queen/SHFT” AR and it has an Aimpoint RDS as my primary sighting system. After that I have some Troy BUIS. I hunt with Irons, when I competed I did so with Irons. If my life is gonna be on the line I am picking up my “Safe Queen” and going to town.

Trigger: Until you thousands or rounds down range with any firearm you won’t know what the nuances of a really good trigger are. You don’t necessarily need to shoot an AR solely to know this. Any trigger time with any decent firearm will give you an understanding the “feel” of a trigger so identifying a “good” trigger becomes much easier. In a GP role a “match” or “polished” trigger is really not very important and falls more on the taste of an experienced and refined shooter. On an HD rifle, a good stock mil spec trigger is all you really need. At the distance you will be using it you will get absolutely NO noticeable enhancement to your shooting. At distances of hundred plus yards an experienced shooter using an optic (typically a powered scope) will reap the incremental benefits of a “match” trigger.

My progression: I prefer a smooth single stage trigger. I have no qualms with a stock mil spec trigger at all. For the intended purposes of my AR’s the fanciest trigger I have is a Spikes NiB Battle Trigger. It’s nice, it’s got very little creep and the creep it does have is like butter on glass and the break is nice and crisp. It is not a Timney trigger, but I don’t want it to be (I had one on an SPR). These are GP/HD/Hunting AR’s and they have no need for a “match” trigger. I’d like a Geissele at some point but I cannot complain about standard triggers. I’ve shot a few Geissele’s and quite honestly I feel supp’ed up triggers have more of a home in a rifle that is gonna have a powered scope on it and shot for precision. Not something an HD rifle needs to concern itself with.

Furniture:
Forearms: Picatinny rails I say cover them. Not for looks but to protect yourself from them. Different forearms. If it isn’t for looks then I say as long as it gives you options for mounting lights then start with it.

My progression: On an AR is use as a GP/HD, I like rails whether I use them or not. It leaves me with the option. I typically cover up my rails and leave them as an option to use if needed.

Forearm Grips: If it helps you shoot better then sure. But does it? Not just standing but from all positions you might be shooting from. You ever try and shoot from a sandbag or backpack with a massive VFG at the end of your forearm? The cool angled VFG’s, not as bad but does it help you? If you like it then sure, but use it and see if it hinders more than helps you. Same with the mini VFG and the handstops/hooks. If you notice that over time all these little add-ons that one slaps on the forearm has gotten smaller and smaller and less prominent. Why? Because that shit gets in your way when you stop shooting from the standing square to square.

My progression: I had my GG&G VFG before I had my first AR… I used it a bit but once I started competing with it it came off pretty quickly. I went to the Magpul mini VFG. That lasted longer but eventually found its way to the parts bin.

Stock: The standard M4 stock leaves a lot to be desired but really, not much. You can go as fancy as you want and drop as much money on a stock as you want but in the end you just need a SOLID stock, which is where the standard M4 stock fails. It has a lot of rattle and if you have a beard it will rip out you hair… As a basic upgrade to a carbine stock I like the Magpul CRT for no other reason as it is able to lock into place and not rattle around and creates a slightly more solid base. After that any of the locking stocks are fine, depends on how much shit you want to store in it… For fixed stocks, A1, A2 etc. pick one and it will be great. If you want a PSG type stock then you really aren’t planning on a GP/HD rifle are you? If you want more comfortable cheek weld look at SOPMODs and SRT stocks for a GP/HD AR.

My progression: I wanted a SOPMOD and all but the price… really, not necessary but if you have the money, I didn’t. I ditched all my M4 stocks and went to CRT’s, I would like the SRT for what looks like a nicer cheek weld but that’s it. I don’t store shit in my stocks.

Grip:This is more important IMO than most other furniture upgrade. I good grip will feel better in your hand and give you better purchase on your gun then anything else. More importantly it will help put your trigger finger right where you need it. A good grip is probably more subjective then any other piece of furniture. Just look at one of the base arguments between Glock and 1911’s.

My progression: The A2 grip is OK, not great. I went to a Hogue finger grooved grip early but found it wasn’t what I was looking for. Eventually found the Magpul MIAD and added all the fat straps to it and put them on all my AR’s minus my stock DPMS. That one maintains the A2 grip. The MIAD is fat and give my hand something meaty to hold on and it just feels good…

Furniture break down: A tie between a functional forearm and a proper grip (if I had to choose a 1st it would be a functional forearm and then a grip). Stock comes in 2nd and attachments to the forearm ie. VFG etc are last.

Aesthetics: With all kinds of options out there for what is basically the same thing who gives a shit what it looks like.

Final tally in order:
GP
1.)Quality base rifle
2.)Learn the Irons then put on a RDS/Optic
3.)Sling
4.)Trigger
5.)Furniture

HD
1.)Quality base rifle
2.)Light
3.)Learn the Irons then put on a RDS (no scopes)
4.)Sling if needed
5.)Furniture


GP/HD
1.)Quality base rifle
2.)Light
3.)Learn the Irons then put on a RDS (scope if you add a miniRDS)
4.)Sling
5.)Trigger
6.)Furniture



Link Posted: 9/13/2015 8:50:07 PM EDT

I am not expecting you to read these as generally people are set in their ways but someone else may wander along and want to know more about what others with lots of time behind the buttstock have to say about it.
Here are TWO great threads about what parts fail and in some cases the companies that surround them. I have some high round count guns but nothing in comparison to the number the guys at battlefield las vegas shoot up in a week. You can see a thread RIGHT HERE where they talk about pinch points where components have generally failed with heavy use. Note that they use quality known components. Simply saying that you have never seen an unreliable AR means that you have not shot a lot of AR's.

The other great thread for new guys or even some older hands who want to get a few spare part for the coming of the morbidly obese zombie apocalypse is the what parts fail thread FOUND RIGHT HERE! it starts off a bit slow but lots of lessons learned over the years by other people breaking guns at carbine courses.
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The wise man learns from someone else’s mistakes, the smart man learns from his own, and the stupid one never learns.
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Thanks. New guy here and this is some of the stuff I was looking for. These need to be pinned in the 'welcome' thread.
Link Posted: 9/13/2015 8:57:56 PM EDT
No problem. There is a ton of stuff new shooters should read. I think those two threads I linked are both stickies in the respective forums but I am not sure. I don't control what is stickied but I guess I would agree that those threads could go into the faq. The problem is that many people who join the forum never bother to look at tacked threads up top or the FAQs.
Link Posted: 9/13/2015 9:03:15 PM EDT

I have all of the Gee-Whiz shit mounted on my KAC SR-15.
And.. if/when necessary it's there for the go-to, should the
need arise.

But my handy dandy, always sitting within arms reach rifle
is just a simple 'ol Colt 6520.





Link Posted: 9/15/2015 11:30:03 AM EDT
So an AR without a light is "non-functional"? I don't know how people managed to survive before 2015.
Link Posted: 9/16/2015 5:49:19 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/16/2015 10:11:37 PM EDT by dpmmn]
Originally Posted By nickforney:


What you guys think? Anything in the wrong slot in your opinion? Anyone else like me and buy up a bunch of junk that was worthless in the beginning only to find out that soft skills can't be bought?
View Quote

I don't think anyone here hasn't at some point in their life with at least one hobby they have. I fact would you believe with the screen name CaptainOverkill I have been known to do this on a fairly regular basis. One look at my computer desk, home theater and other various hobby's and you will realise this is not limited to firearms.

<Edited..........please use the Equipment Exchange for your WTS Items ...........dpmmn>
Link Posted: 9/17/2015 11:27:20 AM EDT
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Originally Posted By CaptainOverkill:

I don't think anyone here hasn't at some point in their life with at least one hobby they have. I fact would you believe with the screen name CaptainOverkill I have been known to do this on a fairly regular basis. One look at my computer desk, home theater and other various hobby's and you will realise this is not limited to firearms.

<Edited..........please use the Equipment Exchange for your WTS Items ...........dpmmn>
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Originally Posted By CaptainOverkill:
Originally Posted By nickforney:


What you guys think? Anything in the wrong slot in your opinion? Anyone else like me and buy up a bunch of junk that was worthless in the beginning only to find out that soft skills can't be bought?

I don't think anyone here hasn't at some point in their life with at least one hobby they have. I fact would you believe with the screen name CaptainOverkill I have been known to do this on a fairly regular basis. One look at my computer desk, home theater and other various hobby's and you will realise this is not limited to firearms.

<Edited..........please use the Equipment Exchange for your WTS Items ...........dpmmn>


I was actually trying to make a weak attempt at being funny, but you were correct for placing the edit.
Link Posted: 9/17/2015 12:12:59 PM EDT
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Originally Posted By glockr:
So an AR without a light is "non-functional"? I don't know how people managed to survive before 2015.
View Quote


So you missed the point. The point being to discuss where you set your priorities in what you upgrade, why and does it make since in relation to the article posted. If not, why do you disagree?

An HD weapon without a light is subpar.

A GP rifle without a light is not necessarily subpar depending on what you doing with said rifle but a light is a worth addition regardless.
Link Posted: 9/17/2015 12:31:20 PM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BillyDoubleU:


So you missed the point. The point being to discuss where you set your priorities in what you upgrade, why and does it make since in relation to the article posted. If not, why do you disagree?

An HD weapon without a light is subpar.

A GP rifle without a light is not necessarily subpar depending on what you doing with said rifle but a light is a worth addition regardless.
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Originally Posted By BillyDoubleU:
Originally Posted By glockr:
So an AR without a light is "non-functional"? I don't know how people managed to survive before 2015.


So you missed the point. The point being to discuss where you set your priorities in what you upgrade, why and does it make since in relation to the article posted. If not, why do you disagree?

An HD weapon without a light is subpar.

A GP rifle without a light is not necessarily subpar depending on what you doing with said rifle but a light is a worth addition regardless.

what about a light with no rifle?
Link Posted: 9/17/2015 4:38:20 PM EDT
The thing that bothers me with a weapon light is that I basically have to point my gun at something to illuminate it. Doesn't sound safe to me.

That's why personally I prefer a handheld flashlight and a handgun for my night stuff (varmint control) but I realize my mission may not be what we're discussing here.
Link Posted: 9/24/2015 12:58:35 AM EDT
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By minion42:
The thing that bothers me with a weapon light is that I basically have to point my gun at something to illuminate it. Doesn't sound safe to me.

That's why personally I prefer a handheld flashlight and a handgun for my night stuff (varmint control) but I realize my mission may not be what we're discussing here.
View Quote


You don't have to point your weapon at anything to illuminate your environment with a weaponlight.

Keep the weapon pointed downwards (low ready) and turn on the light if you feel the situation doesn't warrant keeping the weapon up and pointed downrange. The splash from any decent quality weaponlight should easily be enough to illuminate the area around you.
Link Posted: 9/24/2015 12:58:45 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/24/2015 12:59:22 AM EDT by RJeff21]
Double Tap.
Link Posted: 9/24/2015 2:39:12 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 9/24/2015 2:49:02 AM EDT by uglygun]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By cms81586:


Can't shoot your target of you can't positively identify it. Well...you can...but plenty of people are living with the fact they killed their own loved ones because they shot at a figure in the dark. You need to see your sights AND your target.
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Originally Posted By cms81586:
Originally Posted By uglygun:
I do not feel that a light is more necessary than an optic.

I have lights available and handy but it may be that I have more use for an optic for low light situations than a light.

A purely home defense rifle I may not want a sling on either.


For my department rifle the sling is a huge priority before optic or light. But if I had to decide between optic or light... i would take the optic. My 100 yard qual target group sizes shrank by roughly half from a change from A2 irons to a cowitnessed dot Aimpoint CompM. To the extent that dropping to prone from standing I can get 5 shots into a nice small group. On rare occasion where gods are smiling on me I have had nearly 3 shots touching and other 2 shots pushing group open to about 3 MOA. That simply didnt happen as often with iron sights. My speed and precision are much higher with the red dot than with the irons.

Light has uses but I do not have a light on my rifle as standard. It has a handguard rail I added so I can take my X300 off my sidearm and attach it if need be.

But I love my Aimpoint.


I have 5 personal ARs. Some are specialized to things like varminting. My home defense rifle does have a light on it but it rarely comes out of the safe. My sidearm sees more use as primary defensive gun as it stays within arms reach at all times.


Can't shoot your target of you can't positively identify it. Well...you can...but plenty of people are living with the fact they killed their own loved ones because they shot at a figure in the dark. You need to see your sights AND your target.



Intimately aware of that fact. Not saying what is right for others. Just what my own decision process would be.

Also, I live like a shut in introverted hermit and have lived alone for 20 years with all family living 2+ hours away.

I would much rather have the optic than the light if it were one or the other. It really is a get both situation but I value the optic more and would be the first thing I get between a light or a sight.

/edit

I have zero desire to clear my house in the event of a break in. If something happens I am heading for a defensible location and likely using an off gun light as a distraction while I chill out in a dark shadowy corner.

I have cleared houses during patrol/FTO and the "shoot me light" freaks the hell out of me should there be a person who is sitting lying in wait. Being that the job mandates identifying a threat, yeah you kinda bight the bullet and make use of light in the safest way possible.

BUT IN MY HOUSE? Given the consequences of improper light use or no light use? I will take no light use or off gun indirect light use. Hope to have enough time to grab the gun and get to a defensible location.

I have two flashlights next to my bed and my G22 shoved between mattress/bedspring. My rifle isnt even in the equation. But if it were, I value that red dot optic more.
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