Hi Folks,

A forum member asked me if I would give some insight into how our M4's handle on the range because I've started threads on the AK's, pistols and .50 Barretts.

Here's a little background on what we do. We operate a high-volume range in Las Vegas. You can't bring your personal weapons in and rent lanes for an hour. Customers use only our weapons and our ammo. We only use factory new ammo and zero reloads. We keep maintenance log on EACH and every weapon to include cleanings, parts replaced and any other issues that need to be noted. We shoot approximately 400,000 rounds down range each month and the numbers have actually gone up a bit for May and June. Tourists get to shoot everything from Type 99 Arisaka's, M1 Garand C and D's, MP-44's, G43's, M2HB's, 240's, 249's, MG42's, MG34's, M-14's, Luger's, Swedish K's, M203's, M79's and you get the point. Some weapons are very rare historical weapons that rarely come out of collections or museums and see the light of day.

Here are some "facts" about OUR experience with M4's on the range.

- Some of our M4's have well over 200,000 rounds down range. Barrels have been replaced, gas tubes have been replaced, BCG's have been replaced but what sets it apart from the AK47's is that upper and lower receivers continue to function. AK's get to about the 100,000+ round count and rails on the receiver will start to crack. It's an easy fix with tig welding but they crack. We have yet to lose an upper or lower receiver from cracking.

- We get about 20,000 rounds out of bolts before we start experiencing issues. The headspace gauge will start getting closing on NO-GO but not close on field. We will lose a lug on the bolt. The bolt will start skipping over rounds in the magazine and fail to insert a round. We use LMT and Daniel Defense bolts and some will actually go longer but at about 20,000 rounds is when we will start to see issues appear.

- Gas tubes will erode away at the FSB after 12+ months

- Charging handles will "stretch" allowing the locking lever and spring to fly out

- Hammer pins and disconnectors on the 8.5" full-auto's will break after approximately 4,000-5,000 rounds regardless of the buffer weight

- We have yet to lose a single flash hider as compared to muzzle brakes on an AK-47. The muzzle brakes will literally split in half, looking a like bird with his beak open and go flying down range.

- We no longer use ANY piston conversions or factory pistons guns with the exception of the HK-416 "knock-off" TDI upper. I purchased a FACTORY brand-new MR556 and it started keyholing after only 10,000 rounds. I was SO pissed because I spent all that money on the gun and it couldn't last 10,000 rounds. I had barrels from before we even opened the range with 1,000's of rounds on them from J&T Distributing (chrome-lined) that didn't keyhole well into the 80,000-100,000 range. I don't know who makes or made the J&T barrels but I was so pissed that actually wasted the money on a MR556 and that's all I got from it. I purchased two of the 14.5" TDI knock-offs approximately 6-8 weeks ago and they have been on the line daily with ZERO issues. I only purchased them because people will come in specifically request the "416" and even they've never handled a weapon their entire lives, they KNOW that the top half isn't the "416 like in COD/MW".

- USGI mags have outlasted all of the other brands. We use UGSI (Brownell's with tan follower) and on a mag for mag basis, they have outlasted Pmags and a few of the other mags that we get from mfg'ers with new weapons. We don't have to worry about various generations with different weapons like the MR556, SCAR, F2000, Tavor or a couple of others that use AR15/M4 magazines.

- Cleaning bolts and carriers is such a pain in the ass as compared to our AK's, G36's, SCAR's, ACR's and most other platforms. We throw them in the ultrasonic cleaner filled with Simple Green (EPA, OSHA and disposal concerns for us) and they never full remove the carbon from the bolts. The armorers spend so much time cleaning them and keeping all the parts together as compared to most other platforms.

- The only piston system to last on the range so far is the HK416 and TD415 system. Ever other systems we have tried has failed in one way or another. I won't say who's broke or how they broke so PLEASE don't ask. Each mfg has their own system for cleaning intervals and we may not follow their way. We have a way of cleaning and keeping records that suits our needs because of so much use.

- There is company that has an AR system that has some "parts don't need lubrication" and that failed before the end of the first day. I don't think some mfg's understand that people REALLY use their weapons and when you're rocking full-auto all day they NEED lubrication. My armorers and RSO's were laughing when it seized it up because we knew there was NO way it would last on our range.

- The parts that we see break more often are the bolt cam, bolt lugs shearing off, firing pins and gas keys shearing off the bolt carrier.

These are just a few of the things that I can think of on the top of my head. Please feel free to ask questions and I will try to respond sooner than later depending on my schedule.

V/R
Ron

ps: I am sure there are some grammatical errors as I tend to read the words into a sentence that are not there. Some sort of dyslexia-type of issue that plagued me through eight years of college.

Awesome write-up! I'm glad to hear about the upper and lower. I've been worried the trigger and hammer holes in the lower wallowing out over time.

And I knew RF-85 was bullshit from the start, which is why I only own non RF-85 treated parts from "that company"

thanks for doing this!!

when you say bolt cam, do you mean the cam pin? or the bolt breaks at the cam pin hole?

Yes, I apologize. I do mean the cam pin in the bolt.

V/R
Ron

You always hear how FN barrels are good quality.
How long a life do they comparatively have if you use them.
Carbon on bolts. I've never found a need to clean it off.
Do you bother.

We have to put at least 100,000 rounds down range with M4's each month and the weapons will stop cycling if we don't clean the carbon off. We have maintenance schedules for each weapon and if an M4 (or any other weapon for that matter) gets overlooked, it has issues. Each weapon system has time frame for cleaning from the experiences we see each day. Uzi's can go on for awhile but MP5-SD's and other suppressed weapons need cleaning VERY often.

As for FN barrels, I just recently purchased twenty of the complete PSA 12.5" and 10.5" uppers to test them out. So far they have functioned properly like the Daniel Defense and LMT's and have had zero issues. They don't have a huge amount of rounds through them but no issues of jamming have been reported. That's a good thing in our business because our customers come for the experience and having a weapon that jams is a deal-killer.

V/R
Ron

Once again Eugene Morrison Stoner was a genius.    and the gas system is second to none



USGI mags have outlasted all of the other brands. We use UGSI (Brownell's with tan follower) and on a mag for mag basis, they have outlasted Pmags

Let me ask for further clarification here.  Do you mean the bolt breaks at the cam pin hole or that the cam pin actually breaks?

By the way, thank you very much for taking the time to write your very informative posts.

HighSpeedSteel

So you've been using primarily DD and LMT barrels/bolts to date?

Great info and thanks for sharing it! What kind of lube(s) do you use on ARs and M4s?

This piece brakes pretty much where you see in this pic (grabbed from Google, not my pic).




That being said, I forgot about this issue (another picture that I grabbed from Google). On bolts that have a high round count, have not sheared a lug and continue to headspace within spec', this is what usually happens. So, we do lose both pieces but we lose the pin much more often than the bolt itself.

Thanks for sharing.

We've used primarily DD and LMT BCG's for the last 2 years with more DD's than LMT's. We used other brands before that trying to save a few bucks and they never lasted. We learned quick that it was cheaper to just go with a BCG that was slightly more expensive

As for barrels, a majority of the barrels are DD and LMT. We have used the Green Mountain 20" pencil barrels for our M16A1's with zero issues. They get used every day and they continue to headspace fine and no issues of keyholing. As stated in a post above, we just purchased twenty of the PSA barrels made under contract by FN and so far they have good to go.

V/R
Ron

These are really valuable posts. I'd love to see you look at barrel life for ARs of different lengths, as anecdotally it seems accepted that the 10.5 and 12.5 barrels shoot out much faster than the 16 and 20s, but I don't have a technical understanding for why this would be.

Any brands of AR barrels that you are regularly seeing 50k rounds from?

Do you use any BCM's?

What ammo do you run? M193?

PSA 12" ***

Thanks.

"  The parts that we see break more often are the bolt cam, bolt lugs
shearing off, firing pins and gas keys shearing off the bolt carrier."



This is a topic that has always interested me, the lugs shearing off.



Do you usually see the lugs adjacent to the extractor breaking first?



If so, have you considered grinding down the lug opposite the extractor to balance the load?

Some manufacturer is doing this, and it is supposed to help, but I cannot remember who.

I have studied this somewhat, and the math makes sense, but have not done my own volume testing, nor have I seen anybody else do it.



Sounds like you are in an ideal position to test this, if additional bolt life is of interest.

I can provide more info if needed.

Always good & interesting info.

Thanks!

I talked about this in length in another thread.

We've had many companies send us samples and we've had sales rep's show up telling us how much better their products is than others. We even had a sales rep actually eat some of his product to demonstrate it's safety to us (if my armorers couldn't tell the difference between lube and gum/dip and accidentally ate some, I don't think they would be working for me). Some require a whole protocol in order to use it properly and after following the protocol, there was no notable difference that WE noticed as I am not saying their claims weren't true.

All of the lubes we have ever used worked as long as we continued to lube the weapons. Some lubes lasted longer than others but again... they ALL worked as advertised. My biggest concern is making sure it's safe for my employees and there are no issues with EPA, OSHA and disposal of the rags with the residue. Slip2000 fit our business model perfectly.  

Up until about three weeks ago, the main lube we were using was Slip 2000 and the grease was also made by Slip2000. We had a rep at a local country festival give one of my managers a case of Lucas Gun Oil. The armorers asked if we could use it and I told them to get the MSDS's for it and make sure the service company didn't have an issue with cleaning the rags with it. They didn't and we tried it out. My RSO's immediately noticed that it wasn't spraying any "mist" after being lubed. That is huge for use because so many people come dressed really nice (on their way to a dinner or show after) and they could actually put more lube in the gun and keep the weapons "wet" longer. Slip2000 did the least amount of "misting" after lube but the Lucas does even better. My RSO's like it because less chance of getting lube on a customers clothes and better chance of getting tipped

We continue to use the Slip2000 grease on all of the other heavy weapons like the MG42's, M60's, 240's, etc.

The only weapons to get their own special lube are the M134 miniguns. We only use TW-25 on all of our M134's.

V/R
Ron

This thread is awesome. Thanks man.

I need to work there.

Throat erosion is significantly higher on the shorter weapons but our ONLY concern for accuracy is that the bullet doesn't keyhole. One of the armorers mentioned to me at one point we should consider swapping out the barrels because of throat erosion but when I pointed out to him that we are shooting at 10 yards and we adjust the Eotech to match the point of impact so barrel erosion is not much of concern for us.

The shorties are also the same units that erode the gas tubes. We haven't lost a 16" or 20" barrel's gas tube before the barrel itself failed from keyholing.

Also, the gas port holes erode away much faster on the shorties.

V/R
Ron

No wonder!

[JUST KIDDING!!!]

We used Magtech .223 ammo until they got a military contract and couldn't keep up with production. If fairness, they told us 6-8 months in advance that they were pretty sure a contract was coming and that we needed to make sure we had another supplier available in the event they got it. Magtech has been the cleanest of all the ammo we used followed closely by Privi Partizan. I try to avoid Federal and will only use them if no other suppliers are available with the exception of the .50 BMG round.

We are currently using Wolf Gold series of brass case ammo. We've gone through over 500,000 rounds with zero issues. It burns clean and pretty damn close to 5.56mm spec's even though it's listed as .223 Remington.

V/R
Ron

Good stuff.

Have you guys considered throwing some uppers and such together to do some "scientific" comparisons? Like equal length CMV, CMV/CL, CMV Melonite, CHF, SS, etc type barrels and just having your customers flog them to death side by side for the internet to forever squabble over? Since you are obviously able to put the volume of rounds in a week than most of us mere humans probably ever will, it would be spiffy to see which lasts the longest.

Side note, you have any Mk12 uppers for your A1 lowers? I'd be curious to know if you have customers asking for the "Lone Survivor/American Sniper" gun.

We've talked about it but we continue to grow each month. We just hired employee number 58 yesterday and we still need to hire more. We are constantly playing a game of "catch up" but I know at some point we will plateau and things will stabilize so we can do some testing. I have one operations manager and three assistant managers and we talk about testing different models/products like melonite or nitride but we all agree "there's not time for that shit" and get back to emails, customers waiting in line or dealing with HMMWV's

V/R
Ron

You should start an east coast franchise... I'll be first to offer my position as franchisee

Thanks for posting -- very interesting info.

Great information and would love to see a running dialog of equipment used, round count, and parts breakage or replacement.. Thanks for posting

Great thread! Thanks for sharing.

This has to be stickied.

Would love to see you guys get an sr16 from kac to use on the range.Id love to see how long their bolt can really go with continued use.Thanks for the post I thoroughly enjoyed this and the ak post.

 

[in bold]


You have no idea how many asses you are gonna chap with that. Good for PSA though, IMO

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Have you ever thought about switching to KAC in order to decrease parts breakages? ie: bolt, cam pin, etc

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As with your AK thread, thanks for posting your info. It is truly invaluable! Please keep us updated.

 

LOL! Well played, sir!

Ron, what is it about piston guns that gets your thumbs down?  Is it the same for all piston guns, or does Brand A screw up one way and Brand Z another?  Not that I have any hope of "punishing" any of my guns, but I have a couple with pistons and I'm interested in how they fail under heavy use.  Thanks!

This.

I visited y'all the last time I was in LV. I really enjoyed it and so did everyone in my party. The ride was a great touch! I'm glad to see such an interest in guns, even in that area of the US.

I think if you were to continue your activity on this forum, it would help your business expenditures. The wealth of information could help decrease parts replacement costs, but I understand that the amount of money you clear on one barrel probably makes a few hundred dollars inconsequential.

I am interested in seeing your results with the PSA uppers, but the length will sway the results heavily. I am surprised that you are using Wolf gold as well, but I have had no complaints thus far with any of their ammo, much less the gold line. Also, have y'all thought about adding something with night vision?

I am so far out of the loop as to what's hot, what's not and who's making the cool stuff. Are there issues with the PSA uppers and/or barrels? They haven't let me down yet but I will keep you guys posted if they fail in what I consider prematurely.

As for KAC items, I always remember having an issue with availability when we opened a retail store (another store here in Las Vegas) five years ago. The rifles weren't available like a DD or LMT (as well as all the others) and back then the only rifle I remember people asking about were the SR-25's.

We just purchased 162 acres only twenty minutes away from the Las Vegas Strip and I planned on purchasing quite a few of the SR-25's for the 1,000 meter "sniper experience". One of my assistant managers used that as his weapon when he was a sniper in the Army (yes, a real sniper and even featured in the Sniper Challenge DVD when he was still active-duty) and wants it added to the outdoor line-up.

V/R
Ron

I've always tried to purchase the best quality product that I could afford, be it the most expensive or the average cost. It's worth paying for quality because though a cheap BCG may tempt some others, it just means more jamming, less happy customers, more time with the armorers, less time making money, etc. The same goes with the barrels. I was BLOWN away one day when I walked back into the armory and one of the armorers said "doc, I hope you don't get pissed but one of your original barrels is done". I was the completely opposite of mad because I couldn't believe a J&T barrel lasted that long when I've always believe the old "25,000-30,000" barrel life for an AR/M4. It opened my eyes to all the things that I read previously and never had the time or money (wife has ALWAYS held on tight to the purse strings) to go shoot 50,000 rounds down range and verify for myself.

As for night vision, I definitely have something planned for that. We purchased 162 acres of property only 20 minutes away from the Las Vegas Strip for one more level of extreme. When you visited Battlefield Vegas, your RSO may have placed all of your weapons on a cart and taken them on to the range with you. At our new place, every group will jump into a HMMWV with your weapons and an RSO. Guests will be able to shoot MK-19's, M2HB's, M240's and M-134 miniguns from HMMWV's or main battle tanks. Night shoots will be scheduled but we won't be able to "walk in" night shoots. Vegas is loaded with more Happy Hour places than anywhere else and I can't afford to put my guys in harms way with a intoxicated customer and if they are scheduled events, we can control the groups/customers that want to go out and shoot at night with tracers and night vision.

V/R
Ron

Nope. Some folks had accuracy issues with their PTAC branded barrels when those first came on the scene, but the PSA/FN stuff is good to go by most accounts. I think a lot of people put down PSA products purely based on the lower price point and their historically slow shipping. I've had good luck with both PSA and DD barrels...frankly I can't tell much difference other than price.

Seconded.  These threads are amazing.  Thanks to the OP for taking the time to put them together.

Thanks for the info.  This is by far one of the most informative posts I have ever read on here.

Great thread with good solid info. So much for those replacing barrels at 10K, lol!!!!!!  The one huge surprise, for me at least, is the mag. I would have never guessed that USGI would out last the PMags. I have just the opposite experience with mags. Were you doing any particular maintenance to these mags the more rounds went through them? One drop and I usually would end of bending the feed lips and they were useless until this was corrected. I haven't had a single issue with any of my PMags, but the rounds y'all are putting through in a month s more than I will shoot the rest of my life, lol!!!! Just curious to learn a little more about how the mags are used and maintained, 20 or 30 rnd? I also use TW25B lube, grease and their cleaner is top notch. It isn't cheap but quality seldom is.
NCH

One of the best write ups on this site by far great info and insight.  Cant wait to here how the PSA uppers do after high round counts.

I'm guessing most of Battlefield Las Vegas customers don't drop mags.

The customers don't drop the mags but the mag loaders and the RSO's definitely do. I've tried to implement ways to lesson the abuse but at average cost of $10 per magazine, it's hard to change the procedures in order to keep things moving. The RSO's will dump their mags into a bucket if they are with a group or larger party. The mag loaders will load the mags and if they don't have a cart to load them onto, they dump from table top height (4ft tall loading bench) into a 5-gallon bucket on the ground.

We really don't have a set maintenance for mags because most of them don't give us problems. The RSO's will check magazines first (after they finish with a customer) before they take a weapon back for malfunction issues. The AR an AK factory metal mags just run like champs but once in awhile if a magazine was used on a suppressed weapon it does cause carbon to build up. The guys will take them apart, run a few rag through, squeeze some oil, wipe it dry and put it back on the line.

To be fair about the Pmags, they have replaced all the broken mags we have returned to them. It's not like we break them everyday but when they do break, it's usually at the back of the magazine or near the rear portion of the feed lips. The Magpul G36 mags are rock solid and we yet to break one of those in over two and half years.

V/R
Ron