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Posted: 3/20/2005 6:43:31 PM EDT
ISO 3200, F2.8, 1 second.
Federal XM193 ammo
16 inch barrel on Carbon-15 rifle.

Link Posted: 3/20/2005 6:46:36 PM EDT
cool. thanks for the tests.
Link Posted: 3/20/2005 6:49:08 PM EDT
kickass!
Link Posted: 3/20/2005 6:49:57 PM EDT
interesting, in this one the vortex and phantom look the same....
Link Posted: 3/20/2005 6:56:52 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/20/2005 7:09:07 PM EDT by rsilvers]
I learned one thing -- the silly 5 inch long XM flash suppressor that came on my 10.5 inch upper is useless. It works no better than a regular A2 -- all while wasting compactness. It may be different internally though than other designs. I am not sure who made it.

I am also shocked at howw muzzle brakes really DO NOT suppress flash. I figured they did a little, and we were just not telling the anti gunners.

I guess I am favoring the Phantom with the closed bottom and the no-pointy things as it looks good, works as well as the Vortex, and is not too expensive. The A2 works well enough and is cheap.

Notice that I previously determined that this ammo, Federal XM193 is very high flash ammo -- so most other ammo would be even better. There was some ammo I tested which had very low flash even with no hider.
Link Posted: 3/20/2005 7:01:47 PM EDT
tagorama
Link Posted: 3/20/2005 7:26:42 PM EDT
I like it without a FH........... Whew!!!!! Get out the marshmallows!!!!
Link Posted: 3/20/2005 8:04:15 PM EDT

Originally Posted By gmtmaster:
I like it without a FH........... Whew!!!!! Get out the marshmallows!!!!



+1



Colt_SBR
Link Posted: 3/20/2005 8:45:09 PM EDT
nice
Link Posted: 3/20/2005 9:05:17 PM EDT
Thanks for the info
Link Posted: 3/20/2005 9:07:39 PM EDT
This one is old but good.
Link Posted: 3/20/2005 11:08:10 PM EDT
Right. That is my test of various ammos with no flash hider. Notice the XM193 flashes the most, which is why I picked it to test flash hiders this time.
Link Posted: 3/21/2005 2:58:09 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rsilvers:
Right. That is my test of various ammos with no flash hider. Notice the XM193 flashes the most, which is why I picked it to test flash hiders this time.



I'm having a Vortex modified. Was wondering if you're interested in doing a little side by side comparison to a factory Vortex?
Link Posted: 3/21/2005 5:45:59 AM EDT
what's "TAP 75"?

gracias!
Link Posted: 3/21/2005 5:50:14 AM EDT

Originally Posted By A96HondaAccordEX:

Originally Posted By rsilvers:
Right. That is my test of various ammos with no flash hider. Notice the XM193 flashes the most, which is why I picked it to test flash hiders this time.



I'm having a Vortex modified. Was wondering if you're interested in doing a little side by side comparison to a factory Vortex?



Modified how so?
Link Posted: 3/21/2005 6:59:16 AM EDT
This testing is very interesting, but I think it would be most helpful if we could see results at normal battlefield, or at least more reasonable CQB distances. Minimally, I would suggest collecting the same data at different aspect angles relative to the axis of the bore. Imagery capturing auto fire would also be most..."illuminating". Again, thanks for the good work.
Link Posted: 3/21/2005 8:12:34 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rsilvers:

Originally Posted By A96HondaAccordEX:

Originally Posted By rsilvers:
Right. That is my test of various ammos with no flash hider. Notice the XM193 flashes the most, which is why I picked it to test flash hiders this time.



I'm having a Vortex modified. Was wondering if you're interested in doing a little side by side comparison to a factory Vortex?



Modified how so?



Link Posted: 3/21/2005 11:21:05 AM EDT
I hear MSTN's QC Brake suppresses flash pretty well for a brake and the flash it does spit out is to the sides. You might be interested in it...
Link Posted: 3/21/2005 11:22:40 AM EDT
If they send me one, I will test it.
Link Posted: 3/21/2005 11:30:29 AM EDT

Originally Posted By rsilvers:
ISO 3200, F2.8, 1 second.
Federal XM193 ammo
16 inch barrel on Carbon-15 rifle.

www.photomosaic.com/gns/16-inch-XM193ed.jpg



good post. what were your camera settings?
Link Posted: 3/21/2005 11:32:26 AM EDT
You quoted my camera settings. 1 second, F2.8, ISO 3200.
Link Posted: 3/21/2005 11:42:19 AM EDT
ha. I guess I should read...

I was just looking at the pics!
Link Posted: 3/21/2005 12:16:12 PM EDT

Originally Posted By rsilvers:

Originally Posted By A96HondaAccordEX:

Originally Posted By rsilvers:
Right. That is my test of various ammos with no flash hider. Notice the XM193 flashes the most, which is why I picked it to test flash hiders this time.



I'm having a Vortex modified. Was wondering if you're interested in doing a little side by side comparison to a factory Vortex?



Modified how so?

I'm getting it shorten. Taking about 1/3 off the tines.
Link Posted: 3/21/2005 12:58:49 PM EDT
The "SoundTech" suppressor in my tests has shorter straight prongs. My guess is your Vortex will work about as well as that when done.
Link Posted: 3/21/2005 1:07:17 PM EDT
Nice pics.
Link Posted: 3/21/2005 1:15:44 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/21/2005 1:18:02 PM EDT by mongo001]

Originally Posted By A96HondaAccordEX:

Originally Posted By rsilvers:

Originally Posted By A96HondaAccordEX:

Originally Posted By rsilvers:
Right. That is my test of various ammos with no flash hider. Notice the XM193 flashes the most, which is why I picked it to test flash hiders this time.



I'm having a Vortex modified. Was wondering if you're interested in doing a little side by side comparison to a factory Vortex?



Modified how so?

I'm getting it shorten. Taking about 1/3 off the tines.



For now, it looks like this:

Link Posted: 3/21/2005 1:28:16 PM EDT
I wish someone would take a few pics of the new Izzy flash hiders that come from the
factory on the Bushmaster M4-gerys. I have one on mine and have not been able to
shoot it at night yet. If someone has a pic, I would be very grateful if you posted it.

Link Posted: 3/21/2005 1:34:51 PM EDT
How about the old school three prong?

I've found them to be more effective than the A1 or A2.
Link Posted: 3/21/2005 2:06:00 PM EDT
.
Link Posted: 3/21/2005 2:40:07 PM EDT
So, not to hijack this topic, but I was just curious how flash suppressors actually suppress flash. Do the tines allow the gass to disspate and lower pressure, and thus temperature? Or do they allow cool ambient air to mix with the hot gasses?
Link Posted: 3/21/2005 2:56:06 PM EDT

Originally Posted By innocent_bystander:
How about the old school three prong?

I've found them to be more effective than the A1 or A2.



If someone sends me one, I will test it.
Link Posted: 3/21/2005 3:01:17 PM EDT
Excellent.
I'm always impressed by the performance of the Phantom and Vortex.
5C2 Phantom for me.
Link Posted: 3/21/2005 3:01:52 PM EDT

Originally Posted By AR4U:
So, not to hijack this topic, but I was just curious how flash suppressors actually suppress flash. Do the tines allow the gass to disspate and lower pressure, and thus temperature? Or do they allow cool ambient air to mix with the hot gasses?



+1
Link Posted: 3/21/2005 4:53:39 PM EDT
Interesting claims on the Vortex patent. Not sure if I believe any of it.


BRIEF DESCRIPTION OF THE INVENTION

The flash suppressor of the present invention takes advantage of the aerodynamics of the propellant gases and projectile in a rifled barrel. The rifling imparts a spin on the bullet perpendicular to the direction of motion. This spin stabilizes the projectile as it travels through the air. The spinning of the projectile also imparts a spin on the adjacent trailing propellant and the shock wave ahead of the projectile, so that the leading air and trailing gas is rotating in the direction of the rifling (generally clockwise) as it exits the barrel. By employing offset, helical flutes in the same orientation as the gas rotation in a barrel extension, the flash suppressor of the present invention facilitates the radial and forward outward flow of the air ahead of the projectile and the exiting trailing propellant. The flutes extend all the way to the distal end of the device, so no barrier is presented to the forward and outward motion of the expanding air and gas. The rotational outward flow of the leading shock wave draws with it the air in the immediate vicinity of the muzzle, preventing oxygen from combining with the hot propellant gases immediately upon the propellant's exit from the muzzle. Directed outward expansion then cools the propellant and dissipates the unburned powder and also generates a vacuum to pull the remaining propellant behind the projectile outward away from the projectile.

The dissipation and cooling of the propellant gas not only suppresses the burning necessary for a flash, but also decreases recoil by directing a portion of the exiting propellant gases radially from the barrel and reduces muzzle lift by neutralizing some of the reaction to the torque generated by the spinning bullet. Finally, most of the propellant is drawn away from the projectile as it exits the firearm barrel, so that it does not exert a force to cause the projectile to yaw.

Thus it is one object of this invention to provide an improved form of flash suppressor to more effectively eliminate the post-exit propellant combustion and resultant visible flash attendant to discharging a firearm.

It is a further object of this invention to dissipate some of the reactive gas forces that contribute to the firearm recoil and muzzle lift.

It is a further object of this invention to draw the high-velocity exiting propellant away from the projectile to lessen the propellant's drag and the propellant's tendency to cause projectile yaw, thus leaving the projectile with greater velocity and stability.

It is a further objective of this invention to accomplish the foregoing with a device that is convenient and compatible with standard firearms.


Link Posted: 3/21/2005 5:27:15 PM EDT
1. tag

2.

Originally Posted By A96HondaAccordEX:
I'm getting it shorten. Taking about 1/3 off the tines.



How come? What is the reason for that?

Link Posted: 3/22/2005 9:31:41 AM EDT
I shoulda thought of checking the patent hese
"Directed outward expansion then cools the propellant and dissipates the unburned powder and also generates a vacuum to pull the remaining propellant behind the projectile outward away from the projectile."

Don't muzzle breaks direct the expansion of gasses outward, away from the projectile? That doesn't really help my understanding of how they work.
Link Posted: 3/22/2005 11:35:41 AM EDT
I always thought that flash hiders work as a result of barrel harmonics. This is my understanding: When a cartridge is fired the barrel vibrates. These vibrations are carried along the entire length of the barrel and then transfer to the flash hider (FH). These vibrations cause the FH to resonate like a tuning fork, thereby breaking up and dissipating the combustion gas that follows the projectile.
Link Posted: 3/22/2005 12:17:18 PM EDT
Link Posted: 3/22/2005 12:30:43 PM EDT
Guys - reading patents does not always show why something like a flash hider works. They tend to make up bull. The Vortex for example likely works no better than straight prongs of the same length so whatever reason they give avout swirling gasses or whatever might not matter. That is just an example. but usually people invent stuff my experimentation and then make up a reason why it works.
Link Posted: 3/22/2005 1:26:19 PM EDT
I'd also like to know if anyone has idea how well the Izzy Compensator/Brake/Hider from BM works as a hider. It looks sort of Phantom-ish, but has fewer slots.
Link Posted: 3/22/2005 2:36:56 PM EDT
I like "NONE" the best.

Link Posted: 3/22/2005 3:46:46 PM EDT
tag
Link Posted: 3/30/2005 11:17:12 AM EDT
New results, including mini-Vortex.

Link Posted: 3/30/2005 11:20:06 AM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/30/2005 11:20:34 AM EDT by mongo001]
Looks like tine length is critical to the Vortex. Good to know, there. Still doesn't look all that bad.

Looks like that experimental one needs some work.
Link Posted: 3/30/2005 11:30:54 AM EDT
Three prong please! I've heard it's very good but have never seen it tested.
Link Posted: 3/30/2005 11:50:32 AM EDT
What is this C15 brake?

It would work great on my AR pistol
Link Posted: 3/30/2005 12:12:28 PM EDT
Awesome thanks for the pics!
Link Posted: 3/30/2005 12:27:45 PM EDT
[Last Edit: 3/30/2005 12:34:16 PM EDT by Tgrds]

Originally Posted By rsilvers:
New results, including mini-Vortex.

www.photomosaic.com/gns/flash3-small.jpg



Hi,

Interesting post, I would like to ask a question (sorry if this is explained elsewhere):

Are sure you have adequately captured a correct photo representation of the temporal dynamic range for these flash suppressors? Meaning, for example, if you were to wait another 1.0 to 2.0 seconds longer before taking the photo of the barrel without a flash suppressor it would most likely have no flash in your picture because all of the gas (fuel-oxidant) would have been consumed. Contrary to this, if you were to snap a photo too early, say at 0.2 seconds, there may still not be much flash seen due to inadequate amounts of fuel-oxidant build up.

Thus, what I am trying to get at is, are you SURE you have timed the photographs correctly? To that end, it is not unforeseeable that each style of flash suppressors could have different kinetic rates of fuel-oxidant dissipation.

Just my thoughts,

Tgrds

P.S. If you get time I would not mind seeing photo snapshots of 0.5, 0.75, 1.0, 1.5, and 2.0 seconds for a bare barrel, A2, Vortex, and Phantom.
Link Posted: 3/30/2005 12:35:46 PM EDT

Originally Posted By Tgrds:
Are sure you have adequately captured a correct photo representation of the temporal dynamic range for these flash suppressors?




very good point. ideally the best woudl prolyl be a slow motion video...that way you capture the whole blast, not jsut a milisecond.
Link Posted: 3/30/2005 12:42:39 PM EDT
It was a 1 second exposure. The flash lasts less than that.
Link Posted: 3/30/2005 12:47:22 PM EDT

Originally Posted By mongo001:
Looks like tine length is critical to the Vortex. Good to know, there. Still doesn't look all that bad.



Well, the longer the better. I think it worked very well. This was a 11.5 inch barrel after all -- and look how much better than USGI it is. In fact, it is shorter than the EXP and that is 4 straight flutes.

I need an address to send this back to.
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