User Panel
Born with a low tolerance for bullshit
KY, USA
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[#2]
Originally Posted By SWIRE: @Kitties-with-Sigs I'm curious at what your prediction will be about the walnut experiment that I am running this year. All last year as the walnut trees were losing limbs and nuts I was placing them in a spot to create a test bed. I had 100s of walnuts decomposing, tons of leaves, twigs, and even some decent size branches all to create a juglone hotspot. This spring I tilled it all into the ground and put out 5 of my test line of tomato plants and 2 Rutgers tomato plants grown by the local FFA greenhouse. The 4x4 in the image is 16' long to give you a bit of scale. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/680/walnut_garden_2024_1-3207589.jpg All tilled in and it is clear where the walnuts were as they stained the soil. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/680/walnut_garden_2024_tilled-3207588.jpg You can still see whole walnuts everywhere https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/680/walnut_garden_2024_planted-3207586.jpg The dark circles are walnuts that were still on top of the soil. Pictured are 3 of my line of tomato and the 2 Rutgers plants the top. Neither of them had any immediate reaction to being placed in the soil. The real measure will be in the new growth and what it looks like and then big test comes as soon as hot and dry weather hits. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/680/walnut_garden_2024_planted2-3207585.jpg View Quote My first prediction is that you won't be able to find the tomatoes because of the hundreds of walnut seedlings coming up. That said, I admit that I'm skeptical because of the level of juglone you've built up there. Of course I don't expect the Rutgers to do well. Do you have any more of the SWIRE line of seedlings? Would love it if you would ALSO do an experiment outdoors in soil that is not so heavily augmented with the juglone. Like a "normal" level of juglone. Here's the thing-- I have not been able to find any really good research about how long juglone persists in the soil. I believe it is persistant, but not FOREVER persistant. I think, were it forever persistant, that you'd have old-timers saying, "don't buy that land. It's contaminated with walnut and nuthin good will grow," etc etc. They don't. Which means that over time, that chemical will lose efficacy through leaching and through normal root cycling and soil processes, and we can once again grow intolerant species in that soil. Combined with that theory (and it is only a theory) you have to take into account, what if the trees are still there, leaching hydrojuglone every time it rains, which then fixes in the soil and here we go again....? So it's not a simple "this or that" scenario, but we have to reduce it to simple questions to properly experiment. To develop a tolerant tomato that would grow in, say, a planter box that was filled with, maybe, peat-based potting mix, but that was UNDER a Juglans nigra would be an accomplishment indeed! And what if that soil mix was not removed and replaced, but simply augmented with compost the following year, and the tomatoes still grew and produced. That would be life changing for some gardeners. So there is so much to unpack, it's almost too big to think about. I really like that you still have this going on, and I love that you are trying to develop a juglone-resistant variety. |
Nobody ever wakes me at 2 in the morning telling me that my grass is out on the highway.~~Radiopat
Wine is sunlight held together by water~~Galileo Galilei Well-behaved women rarely make history~~Marilyn Monroe |
Born with a low tolerance for bullshit
KY, USA
|
[#3]
Originally Posted By SWIRE: For my regular tomato and pepper garden the area used to be lawn and still grows a good amount of grass and weeds. It gets so bad that I give up trying to weed it and just take the weed eater between rows. This year I decided to try to amend the soil and fight the grass. The city give away free compost and wood chips the first Saturday of the month so I borrowed a friends trailer and had 1.5 yards of compost and 4.5 yards of chips loaded on to it. I don't have an after photo yet as it has been dark ever night when I finish and then raining. I finally broke down and bought my own tiller. I had to go over it multiple times to break up the clay clumps that are just under the surface. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/680/tomatoes_2024_tiller-3207600.jpg Planted the tomatoes and peppers putting some mulch around the plants to keep them out of the dirt as rain was coming. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/680/tomatoes_2024_1-3207598.jpg Added about 2 inches of compost on top the soil. Put a layer of nitrogen fertilizer on top of that, and not pictures is another 2-3 inches of wood chips on top of the compost. The compost was not fully digested. That may be helpful in keeping the grass away or it maybe too harsh and kill of my plants. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/680/tomatoes_2024_2-3207599.jpg View Quote If you can install ANY KIND of edges on that plot, even the cheap plastic edging from the big box store, your weeding job will get easier. Edging is 3/4 of weed control. |
Nobody ever wakes me at 2 in the morning telling me that my grass is out on the highway.~~Radiopat
Wine is sunlight held together by water~~Galileo Galilei Well-behaved women rarely make history~~Marilyn Monroe |
[#5]
Originally Posted By Kitties-with-Sigs: If you can install ANY KIND of edges on that plot, even the cheap plastic edging from the big box store, your weeding job will get easier. Edging is 3/4 of weed control. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By Kitties-with-Sigs: Originally Posted By SWIRE: For my regular tomato and pepper garden the area used to be lawn and still grows a good amount of grass and weeds. It gets so bad that I give up trying to weed it and just take the weed eater between rows. This year I decided to try to amend the soil and fight the grass. The city give away free compost and wood chips the first Saturday of the month so I borrowed a friends trailer and had 1.5 yards of compost and 4.5 yards of chips loaded on to it. I don't have an after photo yet as it has been dark ever night when I finish and then raining. I finally broke down and bought my own tiller. I had to go over it multiple times to break up the clay clumps that are just under the surface. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/680/tomatoes_2024_tiller-3207600.jpg Planted the tomatoes and peppers putting some mulch around the plants to keep them out of the dirt as rain was coming. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/680/tomatoes_2024_1-3207598.jpg Added about 2 inches of compost on top the soil. Put a layer of nitrogen fertilizer on top of that, and not pictures is another 2-3 inches of wood chips on top of the compost. The compost was not fully digested. That may be helpful in keeping the grass away or it maybe too harsh and kill of my plants. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/680/tomatoes_2024_2-3207599.jpg If you can install ANY KIND of edges on that plot, even the cheap plastic edging from the big box store, your weeding job will get easier. Edging is 3/4 of weed control. |
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Get Active or Get Disarmed! That means get involved in helping good candidates in primary and general election. That is in addition to being politically active once they are elected.
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[#6]
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Get Active or Get Disarmed! That means get involved in helping good candidates in primary and general election. That is in addition to being politically active once they are elected.
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Born with a low tolerance for bullshit
KY, USA
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[#7]
Originally Posted By SWIRE: Edging is expensive. I installed a 20 or 25 ft strip on each of the gardens where they narrow and go through the rock structures. I think they were something like $15 each. I would need to spend another $100 in edging but long term it is probably worth it. View Quote That's a lot more expensive than I would have thought. At that price, I would buy 4 X 4s treated and dig them in. That's crazy expensive for plastic junk. |
Nobody ever wakes me at 2 in the morning telling me that my grass is out on the highway.~~Radiopat
Wine is sunlight held together by water~~Galileo Galilei Well-behaved women rarely make history~~Marilyn Monroe |
Born with a low tolerance for bullshit
KY, USA
|
[#8]
Originally Posted By SWIRE: Now that the days are getting longer the foxes come around before it gets dark. A little clip from tonight. Little will not take the hotdog from my hand like her mother did but she will get within 2 feet of me to pick one up. https://www.afterhourtechs.com/misc/fox2.gif View Quote That is so cool. At least you have a bit of Fionna still with you, through her lineage. I'm worried that whatever took her and the others, will be back. |
Nobody ever wakes me at 2 in the morning telling me that my grass is out on the highway.~~Radiopat
Wine is sunlight held together by water~~Galileo Galilei Well-behaved women rarely make history~~Marilyn Monroe |
[#9]
Originally Posted By Kitties-with-Sigs: That is so cool. At least you have a bit of Fionna still with you, through her lineage. I'm worried that whatever took her and the others, will be back. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By Kitties-with-Sigs: Originally Posted By SWIRE: Now that the days are getting longer the foxes come around before it gets dark. A little clip from tonight. Little will not take the hotdog from my hand like her mother did but she will get within 2 feet of me to pick one up. https://www.afterhourtechs.com/misc/fox2.gif That is so cool. At least you have a bit of Fionna still with you, through her lineage. I'm worried that whatever took her and the others, will be back. Yeah, her lineage and trust for me still lives on. The foxes agree with you, they are staying up near the house when I am around and do not like to be in the middle part of the yard where I used to feed them. Also any time there is any noise in the woods they stop and intently focus on it until they know what the threat is. Usually it is a possum that has been coming out. I haven't seen anything on my bridge camera yet but I also don't have the coverage there that I want to. I just had a guy drill post holes so I can put up some 6x6 posts to mount my cameras on. I still need to figure out a power solution for the middle of the yard. Once I get that in place I will be able to see down to and across the bridge. The next part of plan will take awhile as I'm waiting for the ATF to approve something I put into a trust. |
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Get Active or Get Disarmed! That means get involved in helping good candidates in primary and general election. That is in addition to being politically active once they are elected.
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[Last Edit: SWIRE]
[#10]
Originally Posted By Kitties-with-Sigs: That's crazy expensive for plastic junk. View Quote That was my thought too. I just checked Lowes, $24 for 40ft so 60 cents a foot. The 3"x4"x8' landscape posts are $5.08 or 63.5 cents per foot. At least those have some significant volume to them. Last week I bumped one of them with my tractor and it snapped. Turns out termites were in it and eating away it after maybe 5 years of being in the ground. The new pressure treated wood is garbage. The 6x6 posts I mentioned are not CCA treated either. I do have Post Saver sleeves for them so hopefully they work. |
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Get Active or Get Disarmed! That means get involved in helping good candidates in primary and general election. That is in addition to being politically active once they are elected.
|
Born with a low tolerance for bullshit
KY, USA
|
[Last Edit: Kitties-with-Sigs]
[#12]
Originally Posted By SWIRE: Edging is expensive. I installed a 20 or 25 ft strip on each of the gardens where they narrow and go through the rock structures. I think they were something like $15 each. I would need to spend another $100 in edging but long term it is probably worth it. View Quote digging a trench and putting in brick/block/concrete block edging sound just about as cheap. That plastic is stupid expensive for the distance it covers. Edited to add: I forgot I had responded to this, but my brain evidently is consistent in its reaction. Yeah that plastic is just....wrong. |
Nobody ever wakes me at 2 in the morning telling me that my grass is out on the highway.~~Radiopat
Wine is sunlight held together by water~~Galileo Galilei Well-behaved women rarely make history~~Marilyn Monroe |
Born with a low tolerance for bullshit
KY, USA
|
[Last Edit: Kitties-with-Sigs]
[#13]
Originally Posted By SWIRE: Now that the days are getting longer the foxes come around before it gets dark. A little clip from tonight. Little will not take the hotdog from my hand like her mother did but she will get within 2 feet of me to pick one up. https://www.afterhourtechs.com/misc/fox2.gif View Quote Watching this again. God bless her, and may Fiona live on through her. |
Nobody ever wakes me at 2 in the morning telling me that my grass is out on the highway.~~Radiopat
Wine is sunlight held together by water~~Galileo Galilei Well-behaved women rarely make history~~Marilyn Monroe |
Born with a low tolerance for bullshit
KY, USA
|
[Last Edit: Kitties-with-Sigs]
[#14]
Originally Posted By SWIRE: @Kitties-with-Sigs What is your reaction to the idea that volunteer tomatoes could sprout and grow out of the walnut pile soil? This picture is from 10/15/2023 and shows my tomato line in the back, which were planted and growing before I placed the walnuts in front of them. The walnut pile came after they were growing and was 5ft away so I don't think it affected them much. This spring I tilled the walnuts and the area were the tomatoes were. All sorts of volunteer plants came up where the plants were previously which is a little surprising. This biggest surprise came the other week when a volunteer shot up right in the middle of the walnut soil. The large circle is the location of my plant and the small circle is the location of the volunteer. Not only that but the tomato plants I put in flowered and now have tomatoes growing. They are right on track with my main garden. This week will be a good test as it will be sunny, warm, and no rain. From my experience the plants seem to do ok until a dry spell followed by rain. The roots expand and soak up everything they can to get enough water, including the juglone, just so they can survive. Once it rains the plants try to grow again and that is when the juglone toxicity takes them out. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/680/walnut_pile_garden2_2023_10_15_JPG-3237544.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/680/tomato_in_walnut_JPG-3237528.jpg https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/680/walnut_garden_seedling_volunteers_2024-3237570.jpg View Quote That is surprising. I think you should put a cage around it (like a tomato cage...just something so you have that plant identified and can weed around it if you need to, and so no animal bites it off) and see what happens with it. Your observations about the plants doing okay until it rains again, then they are overcome by juglone... This makes me wonder whether plants give water all along, consistently, would have the same issues. See what I mean about it being too much to unpack, unless it is done as consistent experiments? It's hard to tell what is the determining factor for any effect. People wonder why research is so expensive...this is why. Isolating the questions and answers...that's hard. Edited to add: If you haven't already, I would pull up those walnut seedlings right f***ing now. They add nothing to your experiment and you certainly don't need them. And you already know that once they hit six months, they become MUCH harder to just pull up. |
Nobody ever wakes me at 2 in the morning telling me that my grass is out on the highway.~~Radiopat
Wine is sunlight held together by water~~Galileo Galilei Well-behaved women rarely make history~~Marilyn Monroe |
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