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JMB designed the 1911 with a bushing. But not the High Power.
Later people added bull barrels to 1911s and skipped the bushing. It would be interesting to know the history/ engineering behind it. |
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Drugs kicked in now, need sleep, radiation tastes funny at 7 am every day... a bit like victory. - Ginger
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Hi-power has barrel bushing. It is threaded and attached to the slide. Early S&W 39/59 had removable barrel bushing. 3rd gen whent with the similar design like BHP has permanent attached bushing to the slide.
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If I were to guess it was a mechanism of guns being built by hand utilizing gunsmith fitting to increase accuracy
Modern machining allows for tighter tolerances and consistent production at much lower cost The bushings are also an added failure point but definitely a trade off. Interesting how things have evolved in a little over 100 years |
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Speed, Surprise, Violence of Action
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Why are S&W, Kel-Tec, and Ruger Security barrels belled at the end?
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I clicked on OP thread expecting a modified Python with barrel bushing. Why? Because it's OP.
So much disappointment. |
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"History teaches us that men and nations behave wisely once they have exhausted all other alternatives."-Abba Eban
"I like it both ways, but still mainly mouth it" -gonzo_beyondo |
never underestimate the stupidity of other people
GA, USA
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Originally Posted By MONGO45: If I were to guess it was a mechanism of guns being built by hand utilizing gunsmith fitting to increase accuracy Modern machining allows for tighter tolerances and consistent production at much lower cost The bushings are also an added failure point but definitely a trade off. Interesting how things have evolved in a little over 100 years View Quote I would think the above in bold is most important considering a gun design that's 100+ years old (1911). By fitting just one part correctly (the bushing) you can get a barrel with +/- specs to fit a slide with +/- specs. With machining and advances in metal work since then, I would suspect it's not needed. That's why you can basically drop any glock 17 barrel and drop it into any glock 17, or 19, or 26, etc but you can't do that with most 1911s. Also part of the reason 1911s are more mechanically accurate. |
"every exercise is a low back exercise if you do it wrong enough"
@MacManus |
I know the early 1911 slides were very soft, not heat treated. Bushings enabled replacing a small part which might suffer from wear instead of a large, expensive part. Also easier to manufacture in the first place.
My RIA MS has a bull barrel and no bushing. Requires a paper clip to disassemble, but aside from that no problems. |
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Accuracy is a good point but then why is the P210 considered such an accurate pistol without using a bushing?
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Because it's Swiss. High standards to begin with, with no demands of wartime production.
Is forgotten about 1911s (the originals) having softer slides. So design a wear part that can be easily replaced, easier to heat treat (and cheaper). When 1911A1s got heat treated slides it was just easier to keep making the gun as designed rather than redesign and retool. |
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Drugs kicked in now, need sleep, radiation tastes funny at 7 am every day... a bit like victory. - Ginger
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Fair points. So why did S&W decide to use a bushing in the 50s when they were designing the first gen DA/SA autos?
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I think the bushing is necessary for the 1911 because the barrel is assembled through the front of the slide.
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CZ 75s have barrel bushings, too.
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Why is the sky blue?
What makes the green grass grow? |
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Lug versus ejection port lock up.
Lugs are inferior in design and require forward support to maintain accuracy. In the case of the 5906, they use a hooded barrel. It basically looked like a crack pipe and they were notorious for wearing out at the hood before the barrel was shot out. Where as ejection port locking has much more support around the chamber of the barrel, making muzzle lock up mostly unnecessary. For supreme accuracy some pistols will still utilize muzzle lock up too. Bull barrels are more expensive to make and especially back in those days, much harder to make consistently. Fitting a bushing to a barrel is much easier and cheaper. 5906 barrel. Attached File CZ75 barrel. 1911 barrel. P226 barrel. (You can see how the barrel ends up tilting into the ejection port to be fully supported versus partial lug locking on the examples above.) |
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https://instagram.com/_odiegreen_?igshid=OGQ5ZDc2ODk2ZA==
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Originally Posted By -OdieGreen-: Lug versus ejection port lock up. Lugs are inferior in design and require forward support to maintain accuracy. In the case of the 5906, they use a hooded barrel. It basically looked like a crack pipe and they were notorious for wearing out at the hood before the barrel was shot out. Where as ejection port locking has much more support around the chamber of the barrel, making muzzle lock up mostly unnecessary. For supreme accuracy some pistols will still utilize muzzle lock up too. Bull barrels are more expensive to make and especially back in those days, much harder to make consistently. Fitting a bushing to a barrel is much easier and cheaper. 5906 barrel. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/61399/IMG_3426_jpeg-3209302.JPG CZ75 barrel. https://i.ibb.co/wSF2VvM/IMG-3427.jpg 1911 barrel. https://i.ibb.co/J2VsWSm/IMG-3428.jpg P226 barrel. (You can see how the barrel ends up tilting into the ejection port to be fully supported versus partial lug locking on the examples above.) https://i.ibb.co/bdctN3X/IMG-3429.webp View Quote You sir are a true gentleman and scholar. Excellent information, thank you! |
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Originally Posted By Rudukai13: You sir are a true gentleman and scholar. Excellent information, thank you! View Quote Bonus round: Charles Petter was the first to try it at the inspiration of JMB. His pistol and later the P210 indexed off the ejection port but still used lugs. In the early 70’s Sig was desperately trying to reduce costs for the Swiss military P210 replacement contract. This resulted in stamped and welded slides, mostly stamped internal parts, and the elimination of lug machining for the slide and barrel in the form of ejection port locking. The gun that evolved into what we know as the P226. It’s officially called the Sig Sauer system, and it was probably the last game changing advancement to pistol operation design in my opinion. |
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https://instagram.com/_odiegreen_?igshid=OGQ5ZDc2ODk2ZA==
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Originally Posted By -OdieGreen-: Bonus round: Charles Petter was the first to try it at the inspiration of JMB. His pistol and later the P210 indexed off the ejection port but still used lugs. In the early 70’s Sig was desperately trying to reduce costs for the Swiss military P210 replacement contract. This resulted in stamped and welded slides, mostly stamped internal parts, and the elimination of lug machining for the slide and barrel in the form of ejection port locking. The gun that evolved into what we know as the P226. It’s officially called the Sig Sauer system, and it was probably the last game changing advancement to pistol operation design in my opinion. View Quote View All Quotes View All Quotes Originally Posted By -OdieGreen-: Originally Posted By Rudukai13: You sir are a true gentleman and scholar. Excellent information, thank you! Bonus round: Charles Petter was the first to try it at the inspiration of JMB. His pistol and later the P210 indexed off the ejection port but still used lugs. In the early 70’s Sig was desperately trying to reduce costs for the Swiss military P210 replacement contract. This resulted in stamped and welded slides, mostly stamped internal parts, and the elimination of lug machining for the slide and barrel in the form of ejection port locking. The gun that evolved into what we know as the P226. It’s officially called the Sig Sauer system, and it was probably the last game changing advancement to pistol operation design in my opinion. What’s an example of a pistol(s) that uses ejection port locking and muzzle support for extra accuracies? |
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Originally Posted By Rudukai13: What’s an example of a pistol(s) that uses ejection port locking and muzzle support for extra accuracies? View Quote HK USP Tactical, Elite, and Expert use an o-ring to increase lock up consistency. The Grand Power pistols use a lug, partial ejection port indexing, and bull barrels on the higher end editions. Gray Guns offers fit bull barrels for the 320 (have to send the entire gun in for fitting). You’ll also see some custom Glocks and 320’s that have a cut on the top of the slide where the front sight would be, and they leave a tang at the top of the barrel for additional lock up and an integrated front sight. This is probably the best way and I think it will become much more common. Would grab pictures but can’t remember who all is doing it now. ETA: This isn’t quite it since it’s a compensator but same concept. Just imagine it was just a slot cut at the top of the slide with a raised portion left on the barrel to fit it. Attached File |
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https://instagram.com/_odiegreen_?igshid=OGQ5ZDc2ODk2ZA==
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I’ve seen the Trinity Glock and P320 slides. Very nice but very ‘spensive
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View Quote What in the Kentucky fried Christ is that thing? |
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Originally Posted By Wandering_minstrel: What in the Kentucky fried Christ is that thing? View Quote I think it's the Trinity Nevada Pirho Attached File Trinity Nevada Pirho Complete Slide Or similar. |
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Why is the sky blue?
What makes the green grass grow? |
Originally Posted By Rudukai13: I’ve seen the Trinity Glock and P320 slides. Very nice but very ‘spensive View Quote There’s other places doing it. Had more time and they’re called hybrid barrels. Attached File Attached File Attached File I think if they used a taper system with slack allowance it wouldn’t be crazy expensive for this to become a regular high production thing. Think similar to the Geissele rotation tab system but slimmer and longer. It would be a terrible idea for any defensive or combat pistol though, just as slide windows are. Attached File |
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https://instagram.com/_odiegreen_?igshid=OGQ5ZDc2ODk2ZA==
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Originally Posted By -OdieGreen-: There’s other places doing it. Had more time and they’re called hybrid barrels. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/61399/IMG_3437_jpeg-3210680.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/61399/IMG_3438_jpeg-3210681.JPG https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/61399/IMG_3439_jpeg-3210682.JPG I think if they used a taper system with slack allowance it wouldn’t be crazy expensive for this to become a regular high production thing. Think similar to the Geissele rotation tab system but slimmer and longer. It would be a terrible idea for any defensive or combat pistol though, just as slide windows are. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/61399/IMG_3440_jpeg-3210686.JPG View Quote I've seen them called sight tracker or island barrels, too. |
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Why is the sky blue?
What makes the green grass grow? |
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