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Posted: 10/22/2019 4:32:41 PM EST
[Last Edit: 11/23/2020 3:05:29 PM EST by Fooboy]
Target focus.
Better accuracy across the board.
Speed is the same up close with some practice, better at medium/longer distance.

Im converting people left and right.

When I go back to shooting irons I'm better at it after shooting dots, but wonder why you'd want to stay there.

If you're thinking about it - jump in with both feet.


- Zero distance chart
- 1.5Y recap
- Water test 1
- Water test 2
- Poor sight alignment
Link Posted: 10/22/2019 4:36:07 PM EST
Hey, to each their own.  I tried it and hated it but the popularity is clearly increasing.
Link Posted: 10/22/2019 4:37:22 PM EST
For a target shooter, sure.

Daily carry? massive printing and holster issues; also engagements are likely going to be "bad breath" range hardly conducive to aiming with optics.
Link Posted: 10/22/2019 4:39:14 PM EST
Didn't make me more accurate from far or faster close plus concealed matters and I dont need batteries on a pistol. Glad it works for you.
Link Posted: 10/22/2019 4:41:32 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/22/2019 4:42:30 PM EST by Fooboy]
So wrong. I see the most benefits in dynamic shooting / shooting on the move / competition / drills.

I could care less about shooting a tiny group. But it's easier too.

As for CCW.

Attachment Attached File
Link Posted: 10/22/2019 4:44:27 PM EST
Cool, you managed to quote yourself

I guess you should have been more precise what you meant by optics, then; or I in my response. I've got full-size long eye-relief scopes on some of my handguns, and that's what I think of when someone says "optics on a pistol"
Link Posted: 10/22/2019 4:47:34 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/22/2019 4:49:18 PM EST by King_Mud]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Circuits:
For a target shooter, sure.

Daily carry? massive printing and holster issues; also engagements are likely going to be "bad breath" range hardly conducive to aiming with optics.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Circuits:
For a target shooter, sure.

Daily carry? massive printing and holster issues; also engagements are likely going to be "bad breath" range hardly conducive to aiming with optics.
Originally Posted By Greenspan:
Didn't make me more accurate from far or faster close plus concealed matters and I dont need batteries on a pistol. Glad it works for you.
Concealment issues with a dot that adds very little to the profile and is in an area that's pretty much dead space anyway?

ETA: see your followup now. Why were you thinking LER scope on a carry gun?
Link Posted: 10/22/2019 4:58:18 PM EST
I'm not sold on it just yet. Maybe after a new generation micro dots comes out that offers better optical clarity, longer batter life, better mounting systems, increased durability, and less weight. I can wait.
Link Posted: 10/22/2019 4:59:55 PM EST
Until they get to the relialibility standard that Aimpoint/Trijicon has for their rifle optics, not putting an unreliable digital sight for carrying.
Link Posted: 10/22/2019 5:10:00 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By King_Mud:
ETA: see your followup now. Why were you thinking LER scope on a carry gun?
View Quote
I was kinda wonderin' why *you* were thinking that... but that's what *I* think when I think "optics".

Red dots I guess aren't real to me - just toys, and still bulky when they came out and I started using them, as opposed to what they've become.

i.e. this is what I think when I think "optic" Even "red-dot optic"

Link Posted: 10/22/2019 5:54:00 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/22/2019 5:59:10 PM EST by ggibbs]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Fooboy:
So wrong. I see the most benefits in dynamic shooting / shooting on the move / competition / drills.

I could care less about shooting a tiny group. But it's easier too.

As for CCW.

https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/113559/2B8B18C2-F84D-465C-A505-57CA48FE6BEB_jpeg-1134056.JPG
View Quote
FYI the adage is: "I couldn't care less."

Anyone else seeing the shift from marksmanship to "...oh well, I have 16 rounds remaining and a spare mag."?

From the comfort, safety, and controlled conditions of your recliner, the local range or running around shooting big targets while pretending to clear rooms, sure, why not?

But in the real world, sights don't need batteries.
Link Posted: 10/22/2019 5:58:12 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/22/2019 6:00:07 PM EST by fla556guy]
Too much coin, I'm not yet sold, and for my uses of a pistol, it's not going to bring more to the table than $600 of 9mm ammo and some range time won't do better.

I'll reconsider them in a few years if they have stuck around and have been improved and cost reduced.  Right now, iron sights work for me, are utterly reliable, and I've got other monetary priorities for my gun fund.
Link Posted: 10/22/2019 5:59:22 PM EST
My complaint is how they get dirty.  I don't like looking through dirty glasses.  Dont like looking through a dirty windshield.   Don't like dirty eyepro.  The little red dot right by the ejection port on my guns likes to get dirty, too.  
This weekend, I went from perfectly clean red dot to can't see a damn thing through it in 46 rounds.

You know how many time's I've had to stop and wipe off my iron sights?  Never.  Tens of thousands of rounds and never had them get dirty.
Link Posted: 10/22/2019 6:05:33 PM EST
I agree OP.



And I wear Mk.2 eyeballs so I have to clean them at least once a day. An extra swipe? No problemo.
Link Posted: 10/22/2019 6:20:47 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Greenspan:
Didn't make me more accurate from far or faster close plus concealed matters and I dont need batteries on a pistol. Glad it works for you.
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This ^^^ was my experience as well.
Link Posted: 10/22/2019 6:21:39 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/22/2019 6:22:53 PM EST by Fooboy]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By giantpune:
My complaint is how they get dirty.  I don't like looking through dirty glasses.  Dont like looking through a dirty windshield.   Don't like dirty eyepro.  The little red dot right by the ejection port on my guns likes to get dirty, too.  
This weekend, I went from perfectly clean red dot to can't see a damn thing through it in 46 rounds.

You know how many time's I've had to stop and wipe off my iron sights?  Never.  Tens of thousands of rounds and never had them get dirty.
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@giantpune

You're doing it wrong. #1 reason to mill dot rear of irons. Ive not had to clean my glass once.

https://www.ar15.com/forums/handguns/Why-you-should-mill-your-rear-iron-in-front-of-your-red-dot/4-189626/
Link Posted: 10/22/2019 6:31:52 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/22/2019 6:33:38 PM EST by giantpune]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Fooboy:
@giantpune

You're doing it wrong. #1 reason to mill dot rear of irons. Ive not had to clean my glass once.

https://www.ar15.com/forums/handguns/Why-you-should-mill-your-rear-iron-in-front-of-your-red-dot/4-189626/
View Quote
Tell FN and glock they both did it wrong then.  Maybe they'll hire you as a consultant.

And how do you keep your glass clean on a gun you supposedly carry 24/7?  Regular dirt and bellybutton lint will end up collecting on the glass unless you're a liar or you work in a clean room.
Link Posted: 10/22/2019 6:32:05 PM EST
try a good sight like an RMR at night... much better than tritium...change out the battery on your birth day... I use one for steel challenge where the local match is shot into a concrete "bunker" much easier to see a dot than front sight in varying light...with a little practice as soon as the pistol is presented, the dot is on target

IMHO... a good service pistol with RMR and mounted light is the best answer for a defensive pistol... with shortened Heinie Slant Pro sights, I can still see the irons if a catastrophic failure should occur (not supressor height) on my G17 with Trijicon RMR
Link Posted: 10/22/2019 6:39:57 PM EST
I suggest that anyone who is arguing against RDS on pistols to take the time to watch these videos.
Making the Switch to Handgun RDS

RDS for Duty Use

Natural RDS Dot Movement and Sight Picture

Cowitnessing with Handgun Optics
Link Posted: 10/22/2019 7:07:06 PM EST
I don’t think I could go back to regular sights, huge improvements in speed and accuracy for me, YUGE.
Link Posted: 10/22/2019 7:19:34 PM EST
I think in time handgun optics will be as common as rifle optics.  There have been recent big military and federal police contracts for handguns that can mount red dots.

Years ago, scopes were not that reliable and most hunters wanted open or peep sights on rifles.  Leupold and Weaver changed that for mass market hunters.

I think reliable red dots for concealed and duty handgun carry will continue to advance similar to what happened with rifle scopes.
Link Posted: 10/22/2019 10:45:15 PM EST
Some people find them a great advantage others less so, and it depends on what the intent is for your pistol.
I can’t deny they may be the wave of the future, but I am simply not there yet.
I like to shoot old classics with small iron sights and do pretty well with them.
I have casually tried a dot, and understand it requires thousands of draw and fired to really fully gain its advantages. I am just not ready to invest in that yet. When my eyes go down hill perhaps but right now despite my. Age, I can still see sights clearly.
Link Posted: 10/22/2019 10:46:58 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 762AR25:
Hey, to each their own.  I tried it and hated it but the popularity is clearly increasing.
View Quote
This
Link Posted: 10/22/2019 10:57:30 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/22/2019 10:58:24 PM EST by army75th]
Gave red dot a chance. Practicing did not help , after 6,000 rounds I came to the conclusion- irons is faster than chasing a damn dot. Just another fad
Link Posted: 10/22/2019 11:10:01 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By King_Mud:
Concealment issues with a dot that adds very little to the profile and is in an area that's pretty much dead space anyway?

ETA: see your followup now. Why were you thinking LER scope on a carry gun?
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By King_Mud:
Originally Posted By Circuits:
For a target shooter, sure.

Daily carry? massive printing and holster issues; also engagements are likely going to be "bad breath" range hardly conducive to aiming with optics.
Originally Posted By Greenspan:
Didn't make me more accurate from far or faster close plus concealed matters and I dont need batteries on a pistol. Glad it works for you.
Concealment issues with a dot that adds very little to the profile and is in an area that's pretty much dead space anyway?

ETA: see your followup now. Why were you thinking LER scope on a carry gun?
Literally it did not make me any better in any way sorry I am better than you.
Link Posted: 10/22/2019 11:17:39 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/22/2019 11:20:45 PM EST by Minnesotadude]
I have no intention of going back to irons ever. There are so many advantages. If you can't shoot a dot well you probably don't shoot your irons as well as you think you do.

Oh, and recently I have seen more irons falling out of dovetails than trijicon red dots failing.
Link Posted: 10/22/2019 11:28:09 PM EST
My department recently approved red dots for our new G17 MOS pistols. Most of the guys, myself included, who are very into guns are switching. The only officers not doing it are the ones who are too cheap, or the idiots who never practice/shoot with their weapons.

I personally think red dots on pistols are the future. 20-30 years ago, everyone thought irons were just fine for rifles. Now, no serious military or police unit would even think about rifles without optics. Pistols are going the same way.
Link Posted: 10/22/2019 11:57:55 PM EST
[Last Edit: 10/23/2019 12:33:31 AM EST by Getnlwr]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Overkill777:
I'm not sold on it just yet. Maybe after a new generation micro dots comes out that offers better optical clarity, longer batter life, better mounting systems, increased durability, and less weight. I can wait.
View Quote
Longer battery life? Jpoint and Doctor Optics battery life is measured in Years. I have one with the same battery in it for over 4 years. They are also feather weight for what they are. German precision lenses.

You may want to re evaluate your statement.

Edited because I'm not in GD
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 1:11:43 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By giantpune:
My complaint is how they get dirty.  I don't like looking through dirty glasses.  Dont like looking through a dirty windshield.   Don't like dirty eyepro.  The little red dot right by the ejection port on my guns likes to get dirty, too.  
This weekend, I went from perfectly clean red dot to can't see a damn thing through it in 46 rounds.

You know how many time's I've had to stop and wipe off my iron sights?  Never.  Tens of thousands of rounds and never had them get dirty.
View Quote
You don't need to see through it.

Tape up the front of the window and try it.
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 1:21:18 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/23/2019 1:23:10 AM EST by Frost7]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By giantpune:
Tell FN and glock they both did it wrong then.  Maybe they'll hire you as a consultant.

And how do you keep your glass clean on a gun you supposedly carry 24/7?  Regular dirt and bellybutton lint will end up collecting on the glass unless you're a liar or you work in a clean room.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By giantpune:
Originally Posted By Fooboy:
@giantpune

You're doing it wrong. #1 reason to mill dot rear of irons. Ive not had to clean my glass once.

https://www.ar15.com/forums/handguns/Why-you-should-mill-your-rear-iron-in-front-of-your-red-dot/4-189626/
Tell FN and glock they both did it wrong then.  Maybe they'll hire you as a consultant.

And how do you keep your glass clean on a gun you supposedly carry 24/7?  Regular dirt and bellybutton lint will end up collecting on the glass unless you're a liar or you work in a clean room.
I carry an M9a3 almost daily and that thing gets filled with shit that needs knocking out with a brush on the regular. In and under the hammer, in the trigger, in the muzzle, on the guide rod, in the lanyard loop...

I’ve had to rely on co-witnessed BUIS on my Benelli a few times before because the RMR emitter got too much crap in it and it couldn’t be cleared by blowing in it. I can only imagine how full of shit it’d get being EDC on a pistol.

I’m sure an enclosed system like the Steiner MRS would solve that, but that might get bulky.
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 2:28:54 AM EST
When I can buy one out of the box, including the optic and a good compatible holster with no fuss for a sane price, I'll be all about it.  Until then, iron sights are doing just fine for me.  I really don't like having to fuck around with my guns after I buy them.  Hell even changing out normal sights annoys me.
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 3:16:31 AM EST
I'm sold on it, I'm way faster and quicker with my milled glock. Zero down side, I use the same holster I have for 6 years, my raven vg2.
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 4:32:33 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Frost7:
I carry an M9a3 almost daily and that thing gets filled with shit that needs knocking out with a brush on the regular. In and under the hammer, in the trigger, in the muzzle, on the guide rod, in the lanyard loop...

I’ve had to rely on co-witnessed BUIS on my Benelli a few times before because the RMR emitter got too much crap in it and it couldn’t be cleared by blowing in it. I can only imagine how full of shit it’d get being EDC on a pistol.

I’m sure an enclosed system like the Steiner MRS would solve that, but that might get bulky.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Frost7:
Originally Posted By giantpune:
Originally Posted By Fooboy:
@giantpune

You're doing it wrong. #1 reason to mill dot rear of irons. Ive not had to clean my glass once.

https://www.ar15.com/forums/handguns/Why-you-should-mill-your-rear-iron-in-front-of-your-red-dot/4-189626/
Tell FN and glock they both did it wrong then.  Maybe they'll hire you as a consultant.

And how do you keep your glass clean on a gun you supposedly carry 24/7?  Regular dirt and bellybutton lint will end up collecting on the glass unless you're a liar or you work in a clean room.
I carry an M9a3 almost daily and that thing gets filled with shit that needs knocking out with a brush on the regular. In and under the hammer, in the trigger, in the muzzle, on the guide rod, in the lanyard loop...

I’ve had to rely on co-witnessed BUIS on my Benelli a few times before because the RMR emitter got too much crap in it and it couldn’t be cleared by blowing in it. I can only imagine how full of shit it’d get being EDC on a pistol.

I’m sure an enclosed system like the Steiner MRS would solve that, but that might get bulky.
I sold my 2 carbine mounted RMRs after I shot them in the rain.
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 4:47:07 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/23/2019 5:37:14 AM EST by eracer]
If one can't draw and consistently rapid-fire hit a pie plate at 7 yards using iron sights, one needs to practice more.
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 4:51:54 AM EST
One word, Brace
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 8:00:49 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 762AR25:
Hey, to each their own.  I tried it and hated it but the popularity is clearly increasing.
View Quote
It is not something you pick up and just love.  It is also something you do not pick up and immediately become awesome at it.  It took learning a whole new muscle memory for presentation of the sight to my eyes and it took practice to realize the advantage the sight gave me.  I can ring a steel 8" plate at 100m with ease using my red dot on my G17.  Irons I have to work twice as hard to hit that plate.  I put an RDS on one my Ruger MK3 pistol to get used to it and see if I liked it.  It took some getting used to not just an overnight thing.  I would shoot it every time I went to the range and eventually I came around to the idea of pistols with red dots.
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 8:14:32 AM EST
it's the wave of the future, but I'm not super interested in being an early adopter. I built one up a few years ago but when I was competition shooting. I realized I would need to go full Open division or switch back and forth between sights, and I wasn't ready for that.

Now that I'm not serious about competition I'm more into it. Tried a 507c on my Flux 17 and was easy to hit 4" steel at 50 yards. turns a pistol into a PDW. I may buy that new shield with a dot to see how it goes for a while before mounting dots to other pistols.
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 8:37:27 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/23/2019 9:15:16 AM EST by 45-Seventy]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By 762AR25:
Hey, to each their own.  I tried it and hated it but the popularity is clearly increasing.
View Quote
Which means your presentation was garbage.

But I guess just quitting is easier than training.
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 8:37:52 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Circuits:
For a target shooter, sure.

Daily carry? massive printing and holster issues; also engagements are likely going to be "bad breath" range hardly conducive to aiming with optics.
View Quote
LOL... No.

That’s idiotic.
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 8:54:58 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/23/2019 8:56:46 AM EST by JBecker_72]
Two Three questions:

First, what RMR do I want for my Glock 19.5?

Second, who do I send it to for the cut that won't butcher it and try and blame me somehow after?

Third, what sights for co-witness should I get? Big fan of Trijicon HD and others that look similar.
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 9:01:13 AM EST
I’m all about it.

Except I can buy another pistol for what the red dot costs.
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 9:04:32 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/23/2019 9:05:16 AM EST by giantpune]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Scott-S6:

You don't need to see through it.
View Quote
Why do they make them so you can see through them then?  It would be a whole lot more rugged and compact if they made the front solid aluminum and shrank the size down to half as tall as it is.
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 9:13:06 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Krashdog:
I’m all about it.

Except I can buy another pistol for what the red dot costs.
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Give the Holosun 407c and 507c a try then.  I like it better than the RMR personally.
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 9:14:55 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Getnlwr:
Longer battery life? Jpoint and Doctor Optics battery life is measured in Years. I have one with the same battery in it for over 4 years. They are also feather weight for what they are. German precision lenses.

You may want to re evaluate your statement.

Edited because I'm not in GD
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Getnlwr:
Originally Posted By Overkill777:
I'm not sold on it just yet. Maybe after a new generation micro dots comes out that offers better optical clarity, longer batter life, better mounting systems, increased durability, and less weight. I can wait.
Longer battery life? Jpoint and Doctor Optics battery life is measured in Years. I have one with the same battery in it for over 4 years. They are also feather weight for what they are. German precision lenses.

You may want to re evaluate your statement.

Edited because I'm not in GD
No need to re-evaluate.

There is definitely room for improvement. Advancements in electronic devices happen quickly.
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 9:17:07 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JBecker_72:
Two Three questions:

First, what RMR do I want for my Glock 19.5?

Second, who do I send it to for the cut that won't butcher it and try and blame me somehow after?

Third, what sights for co-witness should I get? Big fan of Trijicon HD and others that look similar.
View Quote
The easy answer:
RMR or Holosun 507/508 is you’re on a budget.

Send it to Primary Machine.
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 9:18:17 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By eracer:
If one can't draw and consistently rapid-fire hit a pie plate at 7 yards using iron sights, one needs to practice more.
View Quote
And you’ll be able to do this faster and more accurately with a MRDS under a wider variety of conditions.
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 9:20:41 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By army75th:
Gave red dot a chance. Practicing did not help , after 6,000 rounds I came to the conclusion- irons is faster than chasing a damn dot. Just another fad
View Quote
If you’re chasing the dot after 6k rounds you have two issues:

1) Your presentation is trash.

2) You’re just shooting, and not training.
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 9:23:22 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/23/2019 9:24:16 AM EST by Fooboy]
This was at 5 and 100 Y recovering from rotator cuff surgery last year and I was still new at it. Only gotten better.

Testing has showing shooting on the move and complex drills - my scores / times are much better with dot.

Link Posted: 10/23/2019 10:54:19 AM EST
Seen a few come off of guns during matches, seen a few lose the dot due to battery problems.  I think they're a good idea but they aren't quite there yet.   I'd like to see easier battery access, a sealed emitter and they need to get tougher across the board before I'll bother with one for daily carry.
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 10:59:15 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By ken_mays:
Seen a few come off of guns during matches, seen a few lose the dot due to battery problems.  I think they're a good idea but they aren't quite there yet.   I'd like to see easier battery access, a sealed emitter and they need to get tougher across the board before I'll bother with one for daily carry.
View Quote
If you’re seeing them come off of guns during matches, that’s operator error and someone is screwed up.

Dead batteries? Absolutely... Right now the favorite Carry Optics MRDS is the DPP and Leupold secures the battery connection with tape rather than being soldered down and this is a common issue.

For a carry gun just run an RMR or Holosun 507/508 so you won’t have that issue.
Link Posted: 10/23/2019 11:05:20 AM EST
[Last Edit: 10/23/2019 11:11:55 AM EST by Marksman14]
Took a class with Sage Dynamics.

Opened my eyes, and Aaron is one of the best instructors I've ever worked with.

You're either willing to train and learn how to use the system, or you aren't.  If you aren't, don't bother.  All the gripes I hear about the concept are from people who haven't put in any serious effort, and given up.

If you are willing, it's superior on virtually every level.   RMR Type 2 for duty/carry use, change your battery once a year.  Simple.
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