Look Dave, your heart is the right place.  We appreciate it.

That said, formal training is not the same as a podcast.

Relax man.

I get that the P&S podcasts are a bit long. It takes me multiple drives to work to get through them.

But the free form unstructured discussion format allows for a LOT of really good info, pointed anecdotes, and back and forth debate that wouldn't have ever been present in a 30 minute one sided pre-planned and bullet point outlined traditional format.

I can't listen to every episode, but when there's a topic I'm interested in, there's No better way to get real insight on the topic at hand.

For anyone thinking about MRDS or don't want to spend RMR money PSA has the 507C on sale for $255 with coupon code "optics" and free shipping.

https://palmettostatearmory.com/holosun-circle-dot-solar-power-reflex-sight-hs507c.html

Put a pistol RDS on one of my less experienced students yesterday.

Shaved 1 second off BAER drill.

I ran it and shaved 3 seconds off of a 30 second drill.

Speed is the same up close if you get everything just right on the draw.

If you don't, you don't see the dot.

I've been working with the slide-mounted RDS heavily in the last year. There are definitely benefits, but they result from having essentially an electronic coach on top of the pistol.

To quote Ashton Ray of 360 Performance Shooting, the sights whisper to you. The dot screams at you.

The dot highlights inconsistencies in your presentation. The dot teaches you to stop over-confirming your sights. The dot frees up a little bit of brain power so it can work on the trigger rather than worrying over the movement of your sights. The dot teaches you about wobble zone. The dot isn't doing anything for you besides making some things easily visible that you have been missing before.

To show you what I mean, do something like shoot a group at 25 yards under time pressure with the dot on. Then do the exact same drill with the dot turned off using your irons. You probably will not find a dramatic difference in performance assuming you can see your sights properly. (Dots are the king for people with eyesight problems)

The problem with the dot is that it's virtues are most clearly evident at the things we do least with a defensive pistol. The typical defensive use of a pistol happens at 7 yards and in where even with a lot of practice I'm still a bit faster with irons than a dot. We likely are not standing stock still in a real defensive situation and don't have the luxury of a perfect presentation due to movement, responding to a threat, etc. So the dot is actually a little harder to usefully pick up in the close range threat that is the most likely problem you are solving with a pistol.

Most people suck at shooting past 10 yards and find that they are able to shoot better groups at 25 using the dot. Therefore because it helps them do something they sucked at before they think it's awesome...but that's not really the metric. Yes, we should be concerned with our ability to hit what we want to hit beyond 7-10 yards, but we also need to keep what we're doing in mind.

For people who can't see the sights, the dot is the best thing you are going to get.

For people who can see the sights, the dot is going to show the most benefit in situations that are least likely to happen in self defense. You can certainly train with the dot to reduce the gap between the dot and iron sights, but it takes a while and relies on some things that may not be there in the real deal.

It's not a universal good unless your eyesight stops you from seeing the sights.

Frankly it's a little more useful as a training aid, in my opinion, than as a sight. Having that coach on top of your slide is beneficial to eliminating wasted, inefficient movement in your draw and presentation to the target. It's useful for helping you learn what "good enough" looks like with iron sights. etc.

I've been working with the RDS in the last year precisely because it's becoming a thing and I've been trying to work out what it's really about and I'm at take it or leave it. I've shot my Gen5 G17 MOS pistol very well, but I've also experienced battery death and the inability to see the dot because the brightness setting was wrong and shot every bit as well with the backup irons on the gun despite the fact that the lower 1/3 co-witness of the iron sights is a shitty sight picture.

The key really is all about trigger control.

If you want to try it on the cheap, that's the option I would use.

Just keep the flaws of an open-emitter optic in mind. Buddy of mine shot a match last week and lost his dot because it was cold and his breath was enough to make the dot on his RMR unusable halfway through a stage.

So one area where the dot has an advantage over the iron sight is in extremely long range shots on very small targets:



Fox squirrel...a big motherfucker...shot at 50 yards with my Gen5 G17 MOS using 124 grain +P HST.



Grey squirrel, about 1/3 smaller than the fox squirrel above, shot at over 65 yards with the same combo. (I have a witness who saw me do it)

I've killed 4 squirrels with my Gen5 G17 this season, primarily trying to thin the population because they are eating the wiring harnesses on a friend's vehicles costing him thousands in repair bills.

The dot was useful in these longer shots for the simple reason that it is a more precise aiming point than the tip of the front sight. The dot, when dialed down to minimum visibility (for best clarity on the shape of the dot), is actually smaller in the window of my Aimpoint ACRO than the tritium insert in the front sight. As a result I can aim very, very precisely at longer ranges. And, as a result, I've been aim intelligently at the vitals of four squirrels and hit them. Two at about 50 yards hit in the vitals as you see on the fox squirrel, one in the spine from about 25 yards, and then the grey squirrel where he was quartering away and I favored just a tad too far right and got the entry wound just behind the rib cage instead of at the last rib. I couldn't make an aim point that precise with my front sight easily.

I say "easily" because I have a little dimple at the very center of the tip of my front sight (used a punch to put it there) that is useful for being a more precise point of aim on very small targets, but it's difficult as shit to see in the woods in setting sunlight.

How relevant is any of that for self defense use? It isn't, really. Those kinds of shots are not unheard of in defensive applications, but they are such statistical outliers that it's a man-bites-dog event more than anything else.

I said the benefits of the dot are most evident beyond 10 yards. Their deficiencies are most evident at 7 yards and in.


People who regularly compete are continually training themselves with the equipment...which is something that typical defensive users are most certainly not doing. A guy who spends a lot of time working dryfire and competing in the carry optics division of USPSA or IDPA is going to have lots of reps and will figure a lot of shit out that would be very useful should they need to use their dot equipped pistol in a real defensive situation.

That is not a description of your typical police officer. Which is the problem with this growing sentiment I'm seeing that dots are magic. They aren't, certainly not in all situations (including low light in concert with the use of bright lights) especially if you aren't putting in the work necessary to really become proficient. If you are putting in that kind of work you'll be proficient with whatever is on top of your gun.

With that kind of work you'll be able to minimize the deficiencies up close.

That is, once again, something I did not say.

Eh, that's incorrect.

I can make effective hits up close with my sights all sort of fucked up - but still visible. During testing on Sunday, any flaws in presentation resulted in a frozen shooter looking for a dot.

Ya know, we should just pick a standardized pistol challenge and have these dot boys post em up.  

I shot the BAER drill cold Sunday morning in 7.1 seconds. What are ya'll pulling with those fancy dots?

5m

Correction:

I'm talking about being unable to see ANY dot. How is a missing dot ever "good enough"?

I plan to do just that.

I am too.

I'm well aware of this, it's established doctrine and literally exactly what I just said.

The point I was making is that there are plenty of go-fast scenarios where effective hits with imperfect iron alignment are possible without being able to see the dot.

Anyone have experience with the Venom?

I like what I'm seeing, but the cheap price has me concerned.

Too many issues with the RMR, which failed this weekend while at the range, ironically.

There's a difference between not being able to see something and being able to see it and it being acceptably fucked up.

fucked up =/= missing

Unk. We thought it was the battery dying, but the dot would randomly cut out while firing. When we tried to take swap the battery, the screw stripped - making it unserviceable.

This is apparently a common issue. When I got to work this morning, another coworker had the same problem recently. It's so common that our local gunsmith has a flat rate fee for it.