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Posted: 1/11/2021 10:46:57 AM EST
I've been taking a break from the Internet for a while, but with the cold, crappy weather, I'm bored and back. 2021 is my 30th year in LE. I started as a bright-eyed, naive newbie back in 1991. I worked part time until 2002 and have been full time ever since. TONS of life changes, but I'm still in LE. My agency permits personally owned firearms (well, except for a short time a few years ago), so there have been quite a few. The sheer number of off duty guns I have carried can boggle the mind, but I will start another thread about them, probably in a few days.

Some of the pics are mine, some are not. The ones that are not mine were just grabbed from a Google search. I will note that they aren't mine, but because I saved the pics on my comp some time ago, I cannot give proper attributes.

When I went to the Academy, it was put on by a local PD and we had class in the High School in their City. Range days were at their range, but building search classes were at the School, included CAREFULLY CHECKED unloaded guns. Quite a change from then to now, when the School admins would have a stroke at the mere thought.

Way back then, the Internet didn't exist, for normal people anyway. What was a bright eyed young gun nut to do to figure out what gun he wanted to carry? Why, he broke out all of the back issues of Guns and Ammo magazine that he had bought over the years and went to work. Since the PD didn't (and still doesn't) allow SAO handguns (Colonel Cooper definitely wouldn't approve), and since Glocks were just throwaway plastic garbage (not really, but that was the opinion of a lot of writers then), you have DA/SA autos. A bewildering variety of DA/SA autos.

Per G&A at the time, Sig was robbed of the US Military handgun contract because Italy would allow the US to station cruise missiles in return for adopting the Beretta. The Beretta wasn't a bad gun, but the P226 was the pinnacle of combat handgun development (hey, everyone knows the Germans make great stuff, right?!?!). Since I was destined to be a steely-eyed gunfighter, the P226 it was.

Duty sidearm #1, a West German SIG Sauer P226

Not my pic, unknown source, saved on my comp; this one has newer grips, mine had old style

At the time, the hardware store my parents owned had an FFL, so I ordered it and paid wholesale prices. Even at wholesale, and even that long ago, it was $650 or so. As a naive newbie opening the box on my first handgun, I was in awe. It glistened with a coat of thick oil and was absolutely beautiful. My first range trip revealed that it was reliable and very accurate. It also fit my hand VERY well. When I went through the academy, they hadn't seen a student come through with a P226 yet, since most agencies issued handguns and none nearby issued the P226. At the first range day, the instructors spent the first couple of breaks fondling and shooting it (with my permission), and all loved it. I tied the all time high score for the scenario on the last day (and that included all of the guys at that PD, as well as all their academy classes) and got a separate award at graduation for that feat. I carried it for my first couple of years at the PD with few issues, then the real trouble started.

From day 1, I had some corrosion issues. Even over the course of a 10 hour shift on a normal day with no rain or anything, the slide would start to surface rust, just sitting in the holster. That soon moved on to all steel parts rusting very fast. It got to the point that I would have to unload and wipe down halfway through my shift just to keep it from rusting. If I got rained on, I had to wipe it down, then thoroughly clean when I got home. After a couple of years, it started malfunctioning quite a bit. Fail to feed, fail to extract, fail to eject, you name it, it did it. Back in those days, if something happened to your gun, you called the manufacturer. I called Sig to see what was up. The VERY rude woman I spoke to demanded to know what I had done to THEIR gun. I told her just shot it and carried it. She told me that I had done something to it, that their guns didn't do that. She refused to do anything about it and told me that I was on my own since I had obviously done something to it, then hung up on me. The search began for a new duty gun and I haven't owned a Sig since.

I hadn't heard about the Miami FBI shootout till I started working. My PD issued Winchester Silvertips, just like the bullets that failed to stop Platt and Maddox (not really, but that was the narrative at first). We couldn't have that! I decided that I wanted a .45, since Dept policy allowed .45. In those days, your only real choices for a good combat .45 were the 1911 (forbidden by policy), S&W 4506 (an all stainless boat anchor) and the Sig P220 (I already had a Sig and hated the CS). Right about that time, Glock announced the Glock 21. I was hesitant because Glocks were plastic junk, but it was also high capacity, almost as high as my P226. So, I went to a gun show right after they were released and got to fondle one. It felt pretty good and seemed to be decent quality, so I bought one. I paid full price, and then some, since they were brand new and hard to get (I think I got the last one at that whole show). IIRC, I paid $575, even back then.

Duty sidearm #2, Glock 21

My pic, my gun

This is a very early, 2nd Gen G21, serial number AEVxxx. Either the very first batch or batch #2 that were imported, per Glock. After I got it and actually started shooting it, I loved it. Accurate and reliable. Even though it is a BIG gun, I have big hands and it also fit me well. By the time I semi-retired it, it had over 50,000 rds through it with no malfunctions that weren't ammunition problems, like poorly sized cases when I started reloading pistol ammo. I carried this pistol for 18 years, with only a couple of breaks, detailed below. It always worked and never rusted or corroded, even after being caught out in downpours several times, falling om ice and having the holster and gun packed with snow, etc.. Mags were cheap and readily available, at first, anyway. I carried it through a lot of bad stuff and felt very well protected by it. I carried it to firearms instructor training in the mid '90's and got perfect scores every time I shot the qual course, the only one in my class to do so.

On a side note, not long after I got it, the 1994 Assault Weapons Ban happened. I had purchased enough mags to probably last me the rest of my life, so I was set. Fast forward to 2000. I was married and my wife was pregnant with our first child. She almost miscarried twice and was deemed high risk and taken off of work and put on strict bed rest for the last 5 months of the pregnancy. We quickly fell behind in bills and everything else because she couldn't work. Hell, there were days that I ate nothing but plain, white rice so she could have good food. I sold quite a few pre-ban G21 mags for $100 each and kept a roof over our heads and at least some food in the kitchen.

Not long after I started carrying the G21, Glock announced upgrades to their pistols. 9mm guns had to have the infamous "6 part upgrade" that could be installed by an armorer, G21s had to go back to Glock to have the slide milled in a couple of places. If you wanted an issued duty sidearm, PD issue at the time was a S&W 6906. My G21 had to go back to Glock for the upgrade, so we move on to sidearm #3.

Duty sidearm #3, S&W 5906

Not my pic, unknown source

Since my G21 wasn't going to be gone for long, I was given a S&W 5906 to carry till it came back. When I got it, the pistol was absolutely DISGUSTING! It had powder residue and other filth absolutely CAKED all over the inside. It was also bone dry. It wasn't supposed to have been issued for several years, so the firearms instructor started doing some digging and asking some questions. It turns out that one of the Sergeants, who also had an issued 5906, was doing bad things. When we had range days and qualifications, he would get this gun out of the safe to shoot so that he wouldn't have to get his gun dirty. When the range day was done, he put this one back in the safe and holstered his issued gun again. He hadn't shot his actual issued gun for YEARS! The ammo in his issued gun was green and tarnished, even with the nickle plated cases Winchester used for the then-premium Silvertip ammunition and, when actually taken to the range, the gun choked because of the ammunition. Much yelling and bitching ensued, as did a disciplinary write up and a Dept policy update saying that you had to actually qualify with the individual gun you were carrying and serial number checks to verify.

Amazingly, I took the 5906 out and shot it before cleaning because I was curious. The trigger was heavy and crunchy because of all the crap and being bone dry, but it worked, and worked flawlessly. After a GOOD clean and lube, the trigger was actually pretty good. The DA was long, but smooth and not too heavy. The SA had some take up, but was relatively light and crisp after the take up. I was suitably impressed. The downside was, because of the solid stainless steel frame, it was a boat anchor. That worked well when shooting, though. The gun felt like shooting a .22 because of the weight. It was very easy to shoot fast and accurately. I carried the 5906 for 5 or 6 weeks till my G21 came back, then put it back in the safe and went on with life.

A couple of years after this, I rolled a 4 wheeler and didn't bail in time, so it rolled over onto me. I suffered a lower back injury, which still causes occasional problems to this day. Because of this, I started looking for something smaller and lighter than the G21 to ease the load on an already overloaded duty belt. I LOVED the G21, it was just too big and heavy and was causing back pain if I had to be on my feet for a while. Most of the guys at the PD were buying brand new G22s from a distributor. One of then already owned an older, 2nd Gen G23. I thought that the G23 would be a good option since it was both smaller and lighter than the G21 and would maintain ammo and mag compatibility with everyone else, so I worked it out with him to buy his G23 for what he would have gotten for trade in, $225 IIRC. He got a new G22, I got his old G23.

Duty sidearm #4, Glock 23

Not my pic, unknown source

The Internet was a thing by now, but I didn't have a computer, so I really didn't have access to it. If I had, I probably wouldn't have bought this pistol. When Glock introduced the G22, then the G23, they modified 9mm guns to feed .40 by hogging out the feed ramp on the barrel, leading to LARGE amounts of unsupported case at the feed ramp on early guns, like this one. The first time I got to shoot this pistol was at the qualification day. It started out well. The recoil was a little stout, but not uncontrollable or anything, just more stout than my G21. It was also VERY accurate. The problem came at the end of the day. We had some ammo left (all factory Federal ammo) and were shooting so that everyone could get used to their new guns. I was shooting and, about halfway through a mag, it happened. I was shooting, and BOOM, gun blew the fuck up! The magazine was violently ejected, extractor was blown out, gas went everywhere, my trigger finger was sore and had a minor powder burn and I was covered with brass flakes. Examination revealed that the case head had separated. We found the case head on the ground right under the gun and the rest of the case still in the chamber, with a LARGE bulge and cracked brass flowing down into the unsupported feed ramp. Keep in mind, this is FACTORY ammo. I used the computer at the Station and did some research and learned about the unsupported feed ramp issue. I was FAR from the first person this had happened to, even with factory ammo. Glock refused to do anything about it, saying it was an ammo issue. Federal stepped up and paid for shipping to Glock, all repairs and return shipping.

After getting it back, shooting for function check and finding out it was bulging factory brass to some degree with EVERY SHOT, I didn't want to carry it anymore. We had already had qualifications for that year, though, and the instructor wasn't willing to take me back out with my G21, so I was stuck till the next qualification day. I tried reloading for the G23 so I could at least practice and didn't have much luck. The unsupported area at the feed ramp was so huge that in order to keep the brass from bulging, I had to download the ammo so much that it then wouldn't cycle reliably. Since I was stuck, I carried it till the next qualification day, then qualified with my G21 and carried it for quite a few more years, back pain and all. The G21 continued working flawlessly.

Fast forward to about 7 years ago. I had bought a Glock 19 and was going to finally retire my G21 for the G19 at qualifications. Then, our Chief unexpectedly retired. The new Chief decided that we would carry issued sidearms, no choice given. Despite my protests (you'd think the advice of the firearms instructor would carry some weight, but no, it didn't), he decided the new duty sidearm would be a G22.

Duty sidearm #5, 4th Gen G22

Not my pic, source unknown

Starting with the full timers, we bought and qualified with Gen4 G22s. That was as far as it ever went, though. Turns out, about 5 or 6 months after out new Chief was hired, our City Manager was fired and our Chief was hired as City Manager. Our former Sergeant was then promoted to Chief and he reinstated the policy that we could carry privately owned guns, so for me the G22 only lasted 1 year. As much as I absolutely despise .40 and the guns chambered for it after my G23 experience, I will say, the G22s were good guns. Glock fixed the excessive unsupported case heads on the .40 guns and they are about average now for that issue. These guns were VERY accurate, possibly the most accurate service-style gun I have ever shot. It seemed that all you had to do was point the gun in the general direction of the target and you would hit it. They are also very reliable and we have never had any issues with them. I just HATE .40, so when I had the chance, I jumped and qualified with the G19 I had bought right before we went to G22s.

Duty sidearm #6, 3rd Gen G19

My pic

Even though Gen4 guns had been out a while, I went with 3rd Gen because of reports of "brass to face" with then-current Gen4 9mm guns. As luck would have it, right after I bought my 3rd Gen, "BTF" also started with them, and mine had it. I called Glock and, after an argument with the Tech, he sent me an updated ejector, which cured my issue. When Glock finally approved the "-" connector with the NY1 trigger spring for duty use, I installed them on this G19 and love the combo. The trigger is a little heavier than stock, but is much more crisp. Trigger reset is also lightning fast. I also installed Ameriglo I-Dot Pro night sights and carried it for a couple of years. It is a G19. Needless to say, it was accurate and reliable and I never had any issues with it.

My experience with Glock's CS when I called about the "BTF" issue on my G19 turned me off to Glocks for good. Every time I have had to use Glock's CS, it has been a bad experience, so I started looking again. I couldn't find anything that I liked better than the G19, though. Soon enough, S&W released the M&P 2.0 guns. I had LOVED the way the 1.0 guns fit my hand, but hated the triggers. Mushy, crunchy and unpredictable. The first time I tried a 2.0 trigger, I was sold and bought one.

Duty sidearm #7, S&W M&P 2.0 9mm

My pic

I LOVE this gun like I haven't loved anything since my G21! With the "Med" back strap, it fits my hands like a glove, the trigger is very good and it is very accurate. Aside from some issues with some very old range pickup brass of unknown origin that I reloaded, no malfs or anything at all, although I only have a few thousand rds through it. I have let several others shoot it and all have loved it more than their Glocks, although they aren't "gun guys" and won't buy one when the PD will give them a Glock.

The only issue I have ever had with it was, sadly enough, also one of the selling points, the grip texture. When purchased, I LOVED the texture. I'm convinced that this gun WOULD NOT have moved in the hand whether you were muddy, bloody, wet, cold whatever. Unfortunately, when I qualified with it and started carrying it, the VERY aggressive texture started shredding polyester duty shirts, car seats and jacket sleeves. I had to lightly sand the grip to tone the texture down a little to keep it from shredding anything it touched. It is still somewhat aggressive, but now it doesn't try to eat anything that touches it. My off duty gun since they came out and were hard to find has been a S&W 9mm Shield, and the M&P complements it very well. Since the PD still forbids SAO and I can't carry a 1911, I think the M&P will be on my side till retirement in 2027. I finally found my happy place.

Sorry for the novel, but you were warned in the thread title. Enjoy.
Link Posted: 1/11/2021 11:31:37 AM EST
It's always good to read first hand experience.
Thanks
Link Posted: 1/11/2021 11:34:14 AM EST
Good write up
Link Posted: 1/11/2021 11:39:24 AM EST
Was actually a fun little read.
Link Posted: 1/11/2021 11:56:17 AM EST
Thanks OP. I enjoyed the write up. As in your situation, my first carry gun for work was a Sig 226. $450. new in 1985. Several others during the proceeding years up to retirement in 2002. No clunkers and a few favorites.
😄
Link Posted: 1/11/2021 12:00:48 PM EST
Interesting. I am surprised at how many different duty firearms you have gone through.
Link Posted: 1/11/2021 12:34:10 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/13/2021 11:13:29 PM EST by LampShadeActual]


Most excellent write up.  

My happiest moment as a LEO was retiring after 25 years and never having had to fire a gun for “real” while working.  That did not stop the changes that went like this:

—EOD 1975—
M10 issued 4” pencil barrel (standard gun)
M67 personally owned 4” (most accurate revolver ever shot)
M66 personally owned SQ butt 4” (Davis from California)(Gutted and rebuilt three times now at 87,000 rounds)
M66 personally owned RB butt 4” (Davis from California)
Gold Cup NM 1911 personally owned (the good old Colt days.  Roy Baker pancake on right hip, double mags on left, balanced, hit anything you could see.)
M60 personally owned (zeroed by agency armorers to hit center)
6906 personally owned (trigger reset system kept breaking spring, finally repaired and sold.  Neat for day with 17 round aftermarket mags.)
4506 personally owned (feed, fire, eject failures, replaced with same by S&W)
4506 personally owned (feed, fire, eject failures, replaced with same by S&W)
4506 personally owned (only worked dirty.  If clean, first few rounds stuck in chamber, then failures to eject.  Full refund, gun, dozen mags, leather.)
1076 issued Custom Shop decocker (Shot once to qual, a heavy clunk, not a .45, turned back in, all agency issued 1076’s junked at about 2000 rounds)
P220 personally owned (frame broke, replaced by SIG)
P220 personally owned (worked only with one specific COAL spec ammo, but worked 100% with that lot of 230 HydraShok.)
M13 issued 3” RB (perfect revolver for CCW.  Had to turn in for GSA to destroy.)
G22 personally owned Gen2 (Perfection)
G22 issued Gen2 (Perfection)
—KMA 2000—

The 4 four digit Smith autos were the worst junk that either broke or refused to work with factory ammo.  The first P220 was of the era when the frames broke at about 2000 rounds and only worked with specific lots of Fed HydraShok 230 HP of an exact spec length. All the others were flawless and all were only used with issued ammo.  My own G22-2 has been running 23 years of 500-1000 rounds a year and is yet to malfunction in any manner.  (Springs and little parts replaced as an Armorer would do periodically including magazines.)




Link Posted: 1/11/2021 2:57:37 PM EST
Smith model 64 .38 special
glock 23 (gen 2)
glock 23 (gen4)
glock 19 (gen4)

I retired after 30 years. The glock 19 went home with me. Not a glock fan by no means but I can shoot them and shoot very well.

I hope that in the future, departments will have the foresight to get their officers the equipment they need before they need it.
Link Posted: 1/11/2021 3:03:38 PM EST
More and less than several here...

S&W 681
Beretta 92
Glock 22
Glock 17
XD-45

and about to transition to a Sig P226 9mm
Link Posted: 1/11/2021 4:57:38 PM EST
Nice.  I start part time in 89.  S&W 66.  Then hired full time in 94; Sig P226 with K cote.  No Glocks were allowed...yet.  
Then Glock 22 followed by a Glock 35.   A final switch was to the Glock 21.  I went from a gen 3, to a gen 3 21SF RTF and have carried it since...
Link Posted: 1/11/2021 7:49:03 PM EST
Nice write up.  Over my 10 years I only had 4 duty weapons.  Five if you count the Winchester Defender 12 gauge.  When I worked out in the boonies I’d carry a duty weapon, 2 back ups, and the 12 gauge. There were times when I was the only officer on the east side of the county. Back up was a long way away.

Duty Weapons
S&W 686 .357 magnum
Colt Government Model series 70 .45 ACP
Beretta 92f 9mm
Glock 22 .40 S&W

Back up/off duty
S&W model 60 .38 special
Walter PPK/s .380 (Interarms)
Mauser HSc .380
Beretta 950bs .25 acp (3rd back up/Hail Mary.)
S&W model 10 .38 special, 4” barrel.  (Rode in a shoulder holster under my jacket in the winter.)
Link Posted: 1/11/2021 8:00:42 PM EST
Link Posted: 1/11/2021 8:17:24 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/11/2021 8:18:55 PM EST by Peacekeeper3073]
Congrats on thirty years.  My fulltime career started in 1991 as well.  Retired after 28.  I have my first issued P226 issued in 1991 and my last duty pistol a Glock G4 22.  Had a couple in between but didn't keep them, P226 in .40 and a Springfield XDM 40 (hated that one). Yes my PD issued the Springfield for a short time.
Link Posted: 1/11/2021 8:20:03 PM EST
Getting ready to start year 25.... issued gun has been Glock 22 until a couple years ago when we went to G17

I’ve worked in plain clothes about 19 of it and our list of authorized guns is pretty open as long as it’s quality.

I’ve carried several models from

S&W 3913, 3953, 6906, 4506, 4043, J-K-L frame revolvers, Shield 9

Sig Sauer P230, P228, P229, P220 ( loved the P220)

HK USP40, USP45, USP40 Compact

Beretta 84, 92

All the Glock in 9, 40, 357sig, 45 and 10mm

Sold most of them off over the years.

Now I’m mainly a Glock guy but still love Smith revolvers and a bunch of 1911s
Link Posted: 1/11/2021 8:22:48 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/11/2021 8:23:06 PM EST by iasc300ia]
Great write up OP and a nice break from the doom and gloom posts. Thanks and congrats
Link Posted: 1/11/2021 9:43:04 PM EST
Saved this earlier to read it, just finished. Really enjoyed reading that! Thanks OP!
Link Posted: 1/11/2021 10:54:18 PM EST
That was cool. Thanks for posting.
Link Posted: 1/11/2021 11:19:31 PM EST
I began my LE career with a Gen 3 G17 (which I still have), then tried the H&K VP9, and I'm currently on the M&P9 2.0 with RMR. My love for the M&Ps is akin to bub75's experience. Fits the hand great, points naturally, great trigger, shoots flat, but man oh man does that grip texture chew up shirt sleeves!

Sadly, I am returning back to the fold of Glock for a myriad of reasons (mostly department policy and logistical reasons). I have a Gen 5 G17 with an RMR I need to qualify with and a G45 at ATEi getting dressed with an RMR right now. My original Gen 3 G17 has been kept on Honor Guard duty because it fits the holster. My wife has a Gen 3 G19 and her CCW is a G43. My woods gun is a Gen 4 G20. Once I make the switch to Glock, I'll trade off my two M&P Shields for a G48 for off-duty. May as well streamline my entire pistol platform. I'll still keep one of my M&Ps with the RMR tho.
Link Posted: 1/11/2021 11:54:09 PM EST
Originally Posted By bub75:

Duty sidearm #2, Glock 21
https://i.imgur.com/xAUGN0N.jpg
My pic, my gun

This is a very early, 2nd Gen G21, serial number AEVxxx. Either the very first batch or batch #2 that were imported, per Glock. After I got it and actually started shooting it, I loved it. Accurate and reliable. Even though it is a BIG gun, I have big hands and it also fit me well. By the time I semi-retired it, it had over 50,000 rds through it with no malfunctions that weren't ammunition problems, like poorly sized cases when I started reloading pistol ammo. I carried this pistol for 18 years, with only a couple of breaks, detailed below. It always worked and never rusted or corroded, even after being caught out in downpours several times, falling om ice and having the holster and gun packed with snow, etc.. Mags were cheap and readily available, at first, anyway. I carried it through a lot of bad stuff and felt very well protected by it. I carried it to firearms instructor training in the mid '90's and got perfect scores every time I shot the qual course, the only one in my class to do so.

View Quote

Here's my G21 Gen 2 with earlier serial number, came with adjustable sight.  Never sent it in for the 6 part upgrade.  Shot it twice last month, total of 40 mags through it.

I still have the original barrel but also this KKM barrel as seen in the pic.

Great gun!




Link Posted: 1/12/2021 12:03:33 AM EST
OP:

Good post!
Link Posted: 1/12/2021 7:07:05 AM EST
Wow some of you have had a bunch of issued pistols.  For me all agency issued:

1994 issued a Glock 17
1998 moved to another department and issued a HK P7M13
2005 transitioned to a HK P2000 in 40
2015 transitioned to a Sig P320

David
Link Posted: 1/12/2021 9:34:50 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/12/2021 9:40:51 AM EST by LampShadeActual]
Originally Posted By dwhitehorne:
Wow some of you have had a bunch of issued pistols.  For me all agency issued:

1994 issued a Glock 17
1998 moved to another department and issued a HK P7M13
2005 transitioned to a HK P2000 in 40
2015 transitioned to a Sig P320

David
View Quote


Its not so much that people, including me, in the last century era of replacing revolvers, wanted different pistols in the later 1980’s into 1997.  The issue is that I went through 7 standard factory issue semi auto pistols in between my Colt Gold Cup and a Glock 22 in 1997, both of which never ever malfunctioned.  The in betweens were a mess.

The Colt was a smiled upon as OK non-authorized pistol for two years in the 1970’s until banned when a secretary got hit with a ND by a moron agent.  Then high grade revolvers were a constant randomly interrupted with seven semi autos until 1997.  That’s when the Glock 22 .40S&W was the first pistol that worked all the time every time that was authorized.  (There were SIG P226’s but I never got one.)

People whistfully remember S&W four digit autos as good guns and collect them today, but in real use they did not last and had all sorts of malf/dependability problems and law suits (threatened) by agencies.

If you subtract the Smith autos and P220s, my list is short(er).
Link Posted: 1/12/2021 10:21:52 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/12/2021 10:22:34 AM EST by RaynoEleven]
in 1984 at the beginning of my career, Colt or S&W revolvers were the only authorized guns.

I went to a different department in 1988, Sig p220

I went to another department in 1997, was issued a G17, but never could warm up to it. I went back to my p220.
Later I obtained a p226, and used that same gun in .357 Sig, and .40 S&W.

I retired in 2011 with a p226 in 9mm.

I worked for a few years part time at a small department after that.  I ended up with the perfect duty gun, a P229  in 9mm with E2 grips and a standard reach trigger.  It is still my favorite.



Link Posted: 1/12/2021 11:21:20 AM EST
I began my LE as an Aux Deputy 1976, carried a S&W 39-2.  Hired on small local PD carried 39-2 or model 65 4”.  Hired different small PD in 1977 carried model 66 4” for eleven years.

Hired as Trooper in 1988 issued a model 439 then following.
6904 (just a few months) 1990
5904 till 2000
Glock 22.3 (x2)
Retired 2009 bought my duty Glock 22
Worked part time for local SO’s and PD’s till 2013 carried Glock 22.3

In 35+ years carried several Off Duty and plain Clothes

These were carried the most.
Model 39-2
Model 60
Walther PPKs
Colt Combat Commander
Detonics 45 CM
Walther PPK
S&W 3913
Glock 27

Today I carry a Glock 43 the most, in hot summer I carry a Glock 42 and a Glock 48 if I’m in the mood.
Link Posted: 1/12/2021 3:55:33 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JSG:
Interesting. I am surprised at how many different duty firearms you have gone through.
View Quote


You think that's a lot, when I get time, I'll list the backup/off duty guns. There have been so many that I can't even remember what order they came in. EASILY 15, maybe 20 guns. Except for the period of time when we were mandated to carry the G22, we actually have a pretty liberal firearms policy. Quality manufacturer, has to have a quality duty holster available, calibers 9mm, .40 or .45 (add .38+P and .380 for backup/off duty) and approved by the firearms instructor, namely me. The only real "hard no" things are no SAO, no Magnum calibers and, in the past few years, no revolvers for duty use.

Myself, I prefer to carry a personally owned gun and urge all my guys to do the same, if they choose to do so. Personally owned guns are usually much better cared for and the guys tend to actually shoot them once in a while. You have to remember, for most cops, the guns they deal with are simply there as part of the job. They aren't gun guys at all. Hell, some of them can't even tell you what they carry, only that they carry a Glock. For some, they even refuse to shoot off duty and only shoot when the Dept provides ammo and pays them. The gun is simply another part of their uniform, similar to handcuffs or a shirt. Most of those kind of Officers find it difficult to qualify, but as long as they make the magic 80%, they just don't care.
Link Posted: 1/12/2021 4:00:44 PM EST
Thanks for the kind words, all. As an instructor, I tend to drone on at times. As I was typing this post, I thought it would go one of two ways- either it would be well liked, or it would quickly fall down the pages of the sub-category and into obscurity because no one wanted to read the novel I wrote.

In a few days, when I have time, as I said I'll do a write up on all the backup/off duty guns I have carried. It will be a LONG post, longer than this one, because there have been a LOT of them.
Link Posted: 1/12/2021 6:47:40 PM EST
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Originally Posted By bub75:
Thanks for the kind words, all. As an instructor, I tend to drone on at times. As I was typing this post, I thought it would go one of two ways- either it would be well liked, or it would quickly fall down the pages of the sub-category and into obscurity because no one wanted to read the novel I wrote.

In a few days, when I have time, as I said I'll do a write up on all the backup/off duty guns I have carried. It will be a LONG post, longer than this one, because there have been a LOT of them.
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Very much looking forward to this
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 5:24:27 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/13/2021 5:40:58 AM EST by cwm1150]
Great read, your experience kind of mirrors mine started in 1991 with a Ruger P89DC.  I dreamed of upgrading for about 2 years and finally got a sig P220 which was great. Then 1911's for a few years. Then mainly Glocks with an H&K thrown in for good measure and a Browning HP practical model dual tone. About 8 years ago my PD started the best practices crap which cut personal weapons and we issued Sig P229's, had those for a few years and now have Glock Gen4 model 22 which is much better. Most likely my last duty weapon with this agency till I move on.
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 4:14:32 PM EST
@bub75

What did you carry for a BUG?
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 10:45:11 PM EST
This is a great post!  

Really interesting to hear this sort of story from someone who carried a gun daily and is a “gun guy”.

I’d be interested to hear the full story on Off Duty guns and BUGs.

And yes, the M&P 2.0 grip texture feels awesome on the range but at times acts like you’re also carrying a belt sander  on your belt.
Link Posted: 1/13/2021 10:54:40 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By LampShadeActual:


Most excellent write up.  

My happiest moment as a LEO was retiring after 25 years and never having had to fire a gun for “real” while working.  That did not stop the changes that went like this:

—EOD 1975—
M10 issued 4” pencil barrel (standard gun)
M67 personally owned 4” (most accurate revolver ever shot)
M66 personally owned SQ butt 4” (Davis from California)(Gutted and rebuilt three times now at 87,000 rounds)
M66 personally owned RB butt 4” (Davis from California)
Gold Cup NM 1911 personally owned (the good old Colt days.  Roy Baker pancake on right hip, double mags on left, balanced, hit anything you could see.)
M60 personally owned (zeroed by agency armorers to hit center)
6906 personally owned (trigger reset system kept breaking spring, finally repaired and sold.  Neat for day with 17 round aftermarket mags.)
4506 personally owned (feed, fire, eject failures, replaced with same by S&W)
4506 personally owned (feed, fire, eject failures, replaced with same by S&W)
4506 personally owned (only worked dirty.  If clean, first few rounds stuck in chamber, then failures to eject.  Full refund, gun, dozen mags, leather.)
1076 issued Custom Shop decocker (Shot once to qual, a heavy clunk, not a .45, turned back in, all agency issued guns junked at about 2000 rounds)
P220 personally owned (frame broke, replaced by SIG)
P220 personally owned (worked only with one specific COAL spec ammo, but worked 100% with that lot of 230 HydraShok.)
M13 issued 3” RB (perfect revolver for CCW.  Had to turn in for GSA to destroy.)
G22 personally owned Gen2 (Perfection)
G22 issued Gen2 (Perfection)
—KMA 2000—

The 4 four digit Smith autos were the worst junk that either broke or refused to work with factory ammo.  The first P220 was of the era when the frames broke at about 2000 rounds and only worked with specific lots of Fed HydraShok 230 HP of an exact spec length. All the others were flawless and all were only used with issued ammo.  My own G22-2 has been running 23 years of 500-1000 rounds a year and is yet to malfunction in any manner.  (Springs and little parts replaced as an Armorer would do periodically including magazines.)




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Interesting
Link Posted: 1/14/2021 1:01:22 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By akethan:


Interesting
View Quote


This is interesting because when I came in the job, there were a lot of S&W 59xx guns in the duty holsters of old timers that started in the '90s. A few years ago, we were able to get two old timers to embrace newer guns; one a Gen 3 G19 and the other a M&P9 2.0. There are still two or three 5906s in the wild. I don't remember ANY malfunction issues with any of them (though LSA has waaaay more time on the job than most and this would have seen more). I think the 3rd Gen S&Ws also had reputation for being able to feed empty cases...
Link Posted: 1/14/2021 1:55:55 AM EST
In 1984, I borrowed a Dan Wesson Model 15 with a 6 inch VH barrel to go to work
By the time I went to the academy, I had purchased a S&W 586 4 inch
In 1988, I was working for a state agency, we had s&w 686s
In 1993, I went to work for a state college, S&W 66s loaded with 38 +p lol
About 1996, we went to HK USP 40s, mod 1 and 2
In 1999, we moved to the west part of the state and i was issued a S&W 4506
In 2001, I started what would be my final 17 years with the sheriffs office
Thankfully up until the last two years, deputies furnished their own duty handguns
First I bought my own 4506
Due to the weight, it was replaced with a BHP 9mm in 2002
Between then and 2016, it was usually the BHP.
I did carry a Springfield LW govt and then a Springfield XD for a bit
Before returning to the BHP, which I carried off duty most of the time anyway
In 2016, the new sheriff decided we all needed Glock 17s (insert GROAN)
For two years I was blessed with plastic perfection
And shock shock, they have issues too
Link Posted: 1/14/2021 6:53:02 AM EST
Great post OP. Would like to hear about interesting tales of on the job as well. Not sure what forum that would go in however.
Link Posted: 1/14/2021 7:07:28 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/14/2021 7:10:46 AM EST by Group9]
1985 Model 49 S&W .38, personally owned, bought when I was an investigator for a District Attorney's office.
1988 - S&W 6906 - issued to me by the state.  Piece of junl jam a matic.
1988 Model  13, .357 Magnum - issued to me by by my first federal agency.  Great gun.  Six shots.
1988 Sig P226 - personally owned, bought through my work for $485 (I think).  Very accurate. Still have it somewhere.  Later had it nickel plated to fight rust from carrying in IWB in humid climates.
1991 Glock 17 - issued by my second federal agency.  
1993 - Glock 19 - issued by my second federal agency (swapped for the G17)
1994 - Sig P228 - issued by my second federal agency.  Loved it although it got rust on it from carrying it.
1994 - Sig P239 (9mm) personally owned, carried as backup and off duty gun.
1994 - Sig P220 - Personally owned, carried for a while.  Quit because I was the only one in the office with a 45, and the range officer kept forgetting to bring .45 ammo to quals for me.
2001 - Glock 22 - issued by my second agency when we transitioned to .40
2009 - Pig P229 - issued by my second agency, gun I had when I retired from second federal agency.
2011 - Sig P239 - personally owned, carried at my state agency retirement investigator job.
2015 - Retired for good.  Now carry a S&W 380 on me and a Glock 19 in my vehicle.

Link Posted: 1/14/2021 7:11:43 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/14/2021 7:42:29 PM EST by LampShadeActual]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By the_professional:


This is interesting because when I came in the job, there were a lot of S&W 59xx guns in the duty holsters of old timers that started in the '90s. A few years ago, we were able to get two old timers to embrace newer guns; one a Gen 3 G19 and the other a M&P9 2.0. There are still two or three 5906s in the wild. I don't remember ANY malfunction issues with any of them (though LSA has waaaay more time on the job than most and this would have seen more). I think the 3rd Gen S&Ws also had reputation for being able to feed empty cases...
View Quote View All Quotes
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Originally Posted By the_professional:
Originally Posted By akethan:


Interesting


This is interesting because when I came in the job, there were a lot of S&W 59xx guns in the duty holsters of old timers that started in the '90s. A few years ago, we were able to get two old timers to embrace newer guns; one a Gen 3 G19 and the other a M&P9 2.0. There are still two or three 5906s in the wild. I don't remember ANY malfunction issues with any of them (though LSA has waaaay more time on the job than most and this would have seen more). I think the 3rd Gen S&Ws also had reputation for being able to feed empty cases...


Better to keep Bub’s thread to Bub’s topic, but a few short things:

-the few older blue Smith autos were blue 459's in the offices and worked fairly well, but SWAT shot them to pieces.  They were before the four digit guns.  (Edited)

-the side lever decocker 10mm 1076’s were a total failure.  The 2000 production line guns were bad out of the box.  The 2000 Custom Shop replacement guns started to exhibit all the same defects after a couple years of 1000 rounds a year.  That mess is well documented in history.

-in that era, Smith engineering the first 4506 produced was a new .45 acp design.  The second version was a 10mm version modified to a .45acp version.  The third version gun was a second re-design specifically to be a .45acp.  It was so under sprung it would be called a .45EZ today, opened way too fast, and would not work until dirty enough to slow opening.

-the real problem was exemplified by the Smith federal sales rep screaming at me one day that:  Most people buy the guns, shoot them fifty rounds, and put them away in a drawer.  Cops qualify once or twice a year and don’t shoot.  You feds shoot the guns to pieces and then want them replaced for free.  We were not friends.  I had the only one in the Division as soon as approvable for carry.  Maybe I was a beta tester.

-we all should appreciate the near perfection of most Glocks.  But I note carrying a MP9 2.0 3.6” at the moment because the 2.0 series is an even easier to shoot well just as dependable gun today representing the fifth generation duty Smith.  I use what works best and easiest.
Link Posted: 1/14/2021 7:13:10 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/14/2021 7:17:15 AM EST by Group9]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By LampShadeActual:


Better to keep Bub’s thread to Bub’s topic, but a few short things:

-the few blue 590X guns in the offices worked better and longer, but SWAT shot them to pieces.

-the side lever decocker 10mm 1076’s were a total failure.  The 2000 production line guns were bad out of the box.  The 2000 Custom Shop replacement guns started to exhibit all the same defects after a couple years of 1000 rounds a year.  That mess is well documented in history.

-in that era, Smith engineering the first 4506 produced was a new .45 acp design.  The second version was a 10mm version modified to a .45acp version.  The third version gun was a second re-design specifically to be a .45acp.  It was so under sprung it would be called a .45EZ today, opened way too fast, and would not work until dirty enough to slow opening.

-the real problem was exemplified by the Smith federal sales rep screaming at me one day that:  Most people buy the guns, shoot them fifty rounds, and put them away in a drawer.  Cops qualify once or twice a year and don’t shoot.  You feds shoot the guns to pieces and then want them replaced for free.  We were not friends.  I had the only one in the Division as soon as approvable for carry.  Maybe I was a beta tester.
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The FBI gave up on the 1076's pretty fast.  Not John Hall's best idea ever.  They were issuing them in 1991, for sure, but not for long.  They went to P228's that year, I'm pretty sure.  On the plus side, when they actually fired, they were pretty accurate.  

There was a shooting with one (maybe the only one) where a brand new agent shot a guy off a fence, at 75 yards, who was shooting at him and couple of other agents, who were shocked that he actually hit him that far away.  I think that was in late 1990 if I remember right.
Link Posted: 1/14/2021 7:31:46 AM EST
[Last Edit: 1/16/2021 9:25:59 AM EST by LampShadeActual]
Originally Posted By Group9:


The FBI gave up on the 1076's pretty fast.  Not John Hall's best idea ever.  They were issuing them in 1991, for sure, but not for long.  They went to P228's that year, I'm pretty sure.  On the plus side, when they actually fired, they were pretty accurate.  

There was a shooting with one (maybe the only one) where a brand new agent shot a guy off a fence, at 75 yards, who was shooting at him and couple of other agents, who were shocked that he actually hit him that far away.  I think that was in late 1990 if I remember right.
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The 228?, some SIG 9mm, was the only thing available in any manufacture’s supply chain for an instant bulk order.

John H. was my training school constitutional law instructor and him later becoming the agencies head firearms guy was perhaps not the best idea ever.  

In fairness, chaos abounded.  The career firearms people at Quantico became detached from street agent reality.  The real rub was the constant infighting tension between the boomers who wanted a .45 macho man gun and the trainers who wanted a 9mm pussy cat so they could train women, non-shooters, dis-interested in guns accountants, and others for whom a .45 was scary.  The 10mm FedLite Federal loading was the compromise, however unwise.  Few boat anchor weight 1076’s were ever carried.  They just showed up on the eight qual days per year.

1997 ushered in the Glock 40’s in 23/22 versions, but even then wisely with a 950fps 165 grain HydraShok loading with no more noticeable recoil than a 9mm.  That fell apart in the 200X era when they started buying full power .40.  Training deteriorated.  

Note that today, the trainers won with Glock 19/17 issue Gen5 guns.

(Keeping up with all the changes in an effort to be well armed taught me to shoot anything with a trigger, but was expensive and frustrating.  The SIG P220 was an improvement and the Glock 22’s heaven.)

Again, thank Glock for providing guns that work for LEOs.
Link Posted: 1/14/2021 8:56:37 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By dwhitehorne:
Wow some of you have had a bunch of issued pistols.  For me all agency issued:

1994 issued a Glock 17
1998 moved to another department and issued a HK P7M13
2005 transitioned to a HK P2000 in 40
2015 transitioned to a Sig P320

David
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They still have them stored somewhere or did they sell them off???

@dwhitehorne
Link Posted: 1/14/2021 9:04:40 AM EST
Good narrative.
Link Posted: 1/14/2021 6:45:03 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By LampShadeActual:


Better to keep Bub’s thread to Bub’s topic, but a few short things:

-the few blue 590X guns in the offices worked better and longer, but SWAT shot them to pieces.

-the side lever decocker 10mm 1076’s were a total failure.  The 2000 production line guns were bad out of the box.  The 2000 Custom Shop replacement guns started to exhibit all the same defects after a couple years of 1000 rounds a year.  That mess is well documented in history.

-in that era, Smith engineering the first 4506 produced was a new .45 acp design.  The second version was a 10mm version modified to a .45acp version.  The third version gun was a second re-design specifically to be a .45acp.  It was so under sprung it would be called a .45EZ today, opened way too fast, and would not work until dirty enough to slow opening.

-the real problem was exemplified by the Smith federal sales rep screaming at me one day that:  Most people buy the guns, shoot them fifty rounds, and put them away in a drawer.  Cops qualify once or twice a year and don’t shoot.  You feds shoot the guns to pieces and then want them replaced for free.  We were not friends.  I had the only one in the Division as soon as approvable for carry.  Maybe I was a beta tester.

-we all should appreciate the near perfection of most Glocks.  But I note carrying a MP9 2.0 3.6” at the moment because the 2.0 series is an even easier to shoot well just as dependable gun today representing the fifth generation duty Smith.  I use what works best and easiest.
View Quote



LSA, have at it. That's the purpose of discussion forms, to discuss things. If it drifts a little OT, not a big deal.

While I will preface this by saying that ours weren't really high mileage, my PD did issue 5906s for quite a few years (if you wanted an issued gun) and quite a few carried them. We never had any issues with them at all. Load mag with ammo, insert mag, rack slide, press trigger till slide locked back, reload, repeat. Not the most accurate guns out there, but plenty accurate enough for our uses and the skills of those carrying them. Aside from being a heavy boat anchor because of the stainless frame, I liked the one I carried for a little while.
Link Posted: 1/14/2021 6:46:58 PM EST
Thanks for the trip. Very interesting.
Link Posted: 1/14/2021 7:01:22 PM EST
I forgot to add what you got if you wanted an issued gun. When I started, there was a mish mash. One was still carrying a S&W M66-2 revolver that he had been issued when he started in the mid 1970's (he finally retired in the early 2010's and, at my urging, was presented with the M66 at his retirement party). A couple had ancient 1st Gen G17s that the then Chief bought because the Glock rep sold them to the PD dirt cheap. They had 2 letter serial prefixes (I bought one later, serial number CC***). The current issue when I started was the 5906.

A few years after, issued guns switched to the Beretta 92FS, again because the PD supply place the Chief usually dealt with gave him a good deal on them, not because he knew if they were good or bad. A few carried them, most carried personally owned guns, mostly some variation of 9mm Glock, 17 or 19. The Berettas lasted till the then Chief decided we would go to Gen4 G22s. The PD sold the Berettas and miscellaneous older issued guns off and I got a pretty much unissued one with dead night sights and 6 mags, along with the above mentioned G17.

Current issued gun, if you want one, is the Gen4 G22. Most carry them, some issued and some personally owned. Come to think of it, the current Chief, one of the part timers and I are the only ones now that carried something other than a .40 Glock. I carry my M&P 2.0 in 9mm, the Chief carries a personally owned, older 3rd Gen G17 and the part timer carries an old M&P in .40.
Link Posted: 1/14/2021 7:11:48 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/14/2021 7:19:06 PM EST by Czechers]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By JSG:
Interesting. I am surprised at how many different duty firearms you have gone through.
View Quote

LOL..my time in sworn LE was less than half Op's and i racked up a few. All of these were primary weapons on my firearms card.

City PD with a very open policy for personally owned duty weapons:
sw686
BHP40
Colt Officers Enhanced
Briley Versatility .45 (commander sized)
G27
Beretta 96G Elite

State agency issued:
G19

ETA: All were solid except the Colt, it was a flaming pile of excrement.



Link Posted: 1/14/2021 7:18:50 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/14/2021 7:19:34 PM EST by SteelonSteel]
Almost 25 years, pretty boring, not counting 1911 as an MP.  

Two pistols:

Glock 22 gen2 Iirc, 16 or 17 years on the road.  Extractor sheared the claw off during the academy.   Trigger pin iirc broke in two about ten years in. Finally some of the frame rails were cracking across the department.  Mine was just started with cracking.  Glock replaced them all with gen4

Glock 22 gen4, came with NY trigger but after a few months they were parts swapped to regular springs.  planning on turning it in this Spring or Summer.

Authorized backup was a kahr mk40 and a cz P07.
Link Posted: 1/14/2021 7:34:35 PM EST
Cool write up. Thanks.
Link Posted: 1/14/2021 7:48:27 PM EST
[Last Edit: 1/14/2021 7:52:48 PM EST by LampShadeActual]
Up above I mentioned 590X.  Error:  We never had them and that is a number error.  I edited this in up above once I realized it was a wrong number:

"-the few older blue Smith autos were blue 459's in the offices and worked fairly well, but SWAT shot them to pieces.  They were before the four digit guns.  (Edited)"

We never had four digit Smith 9mm guns issued.

Sorry, It was only 40 years ago and piecing together chronology takes some thinking.

Talking about transitions, the 459s were so old and so few issued they were not memorable and I never had one.  Just relics.
Link Posted: 1/14/2021 7:48:27 PM EST
OST.
Link Posted: 1/14/2021 8:16:58 PM EST
Between agency owned and personal in 35 years (some assignments included several guns issued or assigned):

SW 686, SW 625, Colt 1911, SW 4516 and 5926 (short lived attempt at agency issue-shitty Smiths), Sig P220, Glock 17, 22 and 35, the last 10 years ran what 1911 was clean in case of inspection, to include Warrior, DW Specialist and STI Maurader.

Carried various back ups. Walter PPK, Colt Officers, Mustangs and Pony and SW Nickel Chief.

Long guns: SW 3000, Rem 870s several tricked out for SWAT, MP5s, McMillan 308, Colt 933 Commando, and Several different ARs of varying barrel length and optic combos.
Link Posted: 1/14/2021 8:59:33 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Furyataurus:




They still have them stored somewhere or did they sell them off???

@dwhitehorne
View Quote


I was the Firearms Sergeant from 2010 until I retired 9 months ago.  We had completely transitioned to the P2000 by then.  I kept three M13's (one is a sims gun) three M8's and three K3's.  700 total were destroyed.  Such a waste but those were just some of many I had to destroy.  Feds are required to destroy weapons and can not trade in/sell for new equipment.  David
Link Posted: 1/15/2021 5:52:06 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By NeuroCrim:
Was actually a fun little read.
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