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Posted: 8/4/2023 2:53:58 PM EDT
[#1]
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Posted: 8/4/2023 2:55:26 PM EDT
[#2]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By voyager3: Speaking of arbitrary borders. How defensible would the internationally recognized Ukrainian borders be if Ukraine manages to reclaim 100% of their territory? Is there a plan for what happens then if Russia still doesn't quit? There's a possibility that once Russia is booted out of Ukraine, that the Russians would then save face by declaring they had de-Nazified Ukraine so no more hostilities are required. On the other hand, it's entirely possible that once Russia is booted out of Ukraine, that Ukrainian entry into NATO becomes a priority. Russia would be highly unlikely to continue taking potshots at Ukraine once that happens. Either way, if Russia doesn't quit, then the sanctions will continue, and Ukraine will continue to destroy those places within Russia from where continued attacks are coming. This is why my suspicion is there will be a DMZ on the Russian side of their border with Ukraine. It will be imposed on them whether they like it or not. |
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WLF
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Posted: 8/4/2023 2:56:36 PM EDT
[Last Edit: LurkerII]
[#3]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Alexein: Russia rapes Ukraine. Russian shills response: 1: Ukraine was asking for it. 2: Ukraine partly wanted it. 3: Ukraine secretly wanted it. 4: Other countries did it. 5: Russia was forced. 6: It isn't Russia fault. and always if Ukraine only concedes a little Russia will stop, why wont Ukraine concede? Ask Neville Chamberlaine how conceding worked out ! Those who forget history ..... |
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Posted: 8/4/2023 2:58:54 PM EDT
[#4]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F2rFQrdXIAA2CqW?format=jpg&name=900x900 I'm increasingly of the belief that the Russians are fighting rather stupidly at the strategic level, in all honesty. They created the ultimate defense in depth, but they're not actually using it. They're not surrendering any ground unless they're forced out, even when it would be tactically advantageous to do so. If they lose any ground, they're aggressively counter attacking to take it back, and likely incurring significant losses in the process. That's fine if holding and/or retaking ground is more important than preserving personnel, but the Russians don't have unlimited reserves, and the ground they're bleeding to defend right now has almost no strategic importance. Of course, the Ukrainians are suffering significant losses too, but with the labyrinth of defenses the Russians have set up, analysts like Kofman and Lee shouldn't be saying that they're actually coming out on the worse end of the attrition equation. |
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Posted: 8/4/2023 3:00:03 PM EDT
[#5]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mal_means_bad: Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Mal_means_bad: Originally Posted By Bakelite47: When did I ever say I support Russia in this war? When did I ever say Ukraine needs to give up land? When did I ever say that the US should not support Ukraine? Originally Posted By Bakelite47: In my personal opinion if the Ukrainians can't take back their land in the next year, they would be better off with a treaty that traded some amount of land (maybe return to 2020 borders? Or return of all of the east in exchange for recognition of Crimea?) for peace. Yup, he's a fucking liar. |
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Posted: 8/4/2023 3:05:29 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jaehaerys: I'm increasingly of the belief that the Russians are fighting rather stupidly at the strategic level, in all honesty. They created the ultimate defense in depth, but they're not actually using it. They're not surrendering any ground unless they're forced out, even when it would be tactically advantageous to do so. If they lose any ground, they're aggressively counter attacking to take it back, and likely incurring significant losses in the process. That's fine if holding and/or retaking ground is more important than preserving personnel, but the Russians don't have unlimited reserves, and the ground they're bleeding to defend right now has almost no strategic importance. Of course, the Ukrainians are suffering significant losses too, but with the labyrinth of defenses the Russians have set up, analysts like Kofman and Lee shouldn't be saying that they're actually coming out on the worse end of the attrition equation. there needs some way to permanently codify this truth: "you can't win by trying to out kill Russia" |
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Posted: 8/4/2023 3:09:02 PM EDT
[#7]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: I do not think bakelite47 is a troll. Or referring to someone else? Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: Originally Posted By jungatheart: If they must reply, just don't quote the troll I do not think bakelite47 is a troll. Or referring to someone else? We disagree. |
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Posted: 8/4/2023 3:14:21 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By fervid_dryfire: You got a crystal ball? Anybody remember "Hillary in a landslide" back in the day? I'm getting tired of the "we WILL be doomed" sentiment I keep seeing on the Internet. I experience ZERO doom talk in real life. I suggest that you, me, and all of us step away from the computer and get out more often. I used to live in WA state and got out alot. Many a self identifying libel really do want us gone, or if not gone, unable to influence life or policy. Perhaps you should go have conversations with liberals on life and liberty. Ya know, get out more. Now that we are down in a conservative area of Texas, I do not much of the crazy talk. But it is real and their is a working agenda. Ymmv. Back to the regular programming. |
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Posted: 8/4/2023 3:18:35 PM EDT
[#9]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AeroEngineer: He’s got a bunch of the major talking points down pat. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AeroEngineer: Originally Posted By blueballs: Originally Posted By Stevo89: Just asking questions. You're one of the more successful Russian apologists so far. I don't get the impression he is a Russian apologist. He’s got a bunch of the major talking points down pat. The best trolls we’ve seen in this thread realize that they can’t come in here and be super obvious. Appearing rational and measured while still hitting the talking points is an art. In the end, we are undefeated in this thread in flushing them out. |
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Posted: 8/4/2023 3:24:06 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bakelite47: Should northern Ireland be given to Ireland? My point is that there are many people in eastern Ukraine who want to be part of Russia, and maybe it's not worth the blood to force them to be part of Ukraine. But it's not be decision, it's up to Ukraine. When did Ukraine prevent those who want to be a part of ruzzia from moving to ruzzia? Do you realize that the bloodshed would stop if ruzzia would simply return to their internationally recognized borders and stop attacking Ukraine? |
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Posted: 8/4/2023 3:24:52 PM EDT
[#11]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By doc540: there needs some way to permanently codify this truth: "you can't win by trying to out kill Russia" Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By doc540: Originally Posted By Jaehaerys: I'm increasingly of the belief that the Russians are fighting rather stupidly at the strategic level, in all honesty. They created the ultimate defense in depth, but they're not actually using it. They're not surrendering any ground unless they're forced out, even when it would be tactically advantageous to do so. If they lose any ground, they're aggressively counter attacking to take it back, and likely incurring significant losses in the process. That's fine if holding and/or retaking ground is more important than preserving personnel, but the Russians don't have unlimited reserves, and the ground they're bleeding to defend right now has almost no strategic importance. Of course, the Ukrainians are suffering significant losses too, but with the labyrinth of defenses the Russians have set up, analysts like Kofman and Lee shouldn't be saying that they're actually coming out on the worse end of the attrition equation. there needs some way to permanently codify this truth: "you can't win by trying to out kill Russia" An attrition based strategy likely isn't the best option, but it's the one Ukraine has to go with. They don't have the resources or the level of training needed to bust through Russian lines in a fast manner. The Russians have made it much easier for the Ukrainians to inflict attrition than it should be because they've committed to a "hold at all costs" static defense. If they were actually allowed by their leadership to conduct a more mobile defense, they probably wouldn't be arguably coming out on the worse end of the attrition scale against the Ukrainians. Just retreating a few kilometers and forcing the Ukrainians to encounter new defenses, new obstacles, and new minefields would likely cause way more Ukrainian casualties than fighting in the same area for a weeks on end. It would honestly be the best option here, given that they're apparently taking heavy losses trying to resupply and hold the forward positions, which hold no strategic importance. |
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Posted: 8/4/2023 3:27:52 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AeroEngineer: Exactly. People who regurgitate Russian propaganda = trolls I don’t think there’s any room in this thread to discuss should Ukraine be fighting or a should we support them. I think there is a huge difference between the occasional asshole that pops in and drops the "Russia is winning" or "Zelensky is a cross-dressing Jew-nazi"...BS and someone who asks 'why doesnt Ukraine trade land for peace'. It is probably naive and we probably disagree with that option but it is a valid question. Even if someone has been getting some RU talking points from the net, it is smart, critical thinking involved, to come here and ask about it. It's even brave considering our collective intolerance and troll-paranoia. By that logic, I should be banned from the tech forums because I think 40SW is better than 9 and 45. Being misinformed doesnt make people the enemy and like sinners going to church, thus place is EXACTLY where they should come to get set straight with some gentle lovin... |
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Posted: 8/4/2023 3:28:47 PM EDT
[#13]
Drone bombing a T-90 while it runs away after the drone found the drift offset from the first bomb.
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Posted: 8/4/2023 3:29:24 PM EDT
[#14]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Auto5guy: ....and it's just the lube to get the "THEY COULD HAVE PEACE TOMORROW" dildo into the ass of the conversation. You have a way with words. |
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Posted: 8/4/2023 3:33:24 PM EDT
[#15]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AROKIE: Hold up... you are saying Ukraine does not have the right to its sovereign borders since 1991 because of some pro-russians?  that would be like all the millions of illegals in texas "voting" for texas to become a part of mexico.. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AROKIE: Originally Posted By Bakelite47: Originally Posted By RockNwood: Originally Posted By Bakelite47: Originally Posted By RockNwood: Originally Posted By Bakelite47: Originally Posted By Lieh-tzu: Originally Posted By Capta: Originally Posted By Bakelite47: They're losing tons of bright men in the trenches, women are leaving as refugees, their shit is getting bombed constantly. They could have peace tomorrow, but they would have to give up land. Which they are not willing to do. Imo they would be better off without the pro Russian parts of Ukraine, but it's not my country. Which “pro-Russian” parts of Ukraine are you talking about? Be specific please. No, they could NOT have peace tomorrow if they give up land. Ukraine has no right to exist independent of Russia, have you read NOTHING of what Russia has been saying? Here's the vote for independence in 1991: https://www.brookings.edu/wp-content/uploads/2015/05/Ukraine_LeftAffixedMaps_3.png Since 2022, the "pro-Russian" people in Ukraine have been turning their backs on Russia, making every effort not to speak the language of the "invader," taking Russian-language books to be made into toilet paper. The "separatist" movement in Donbas was 100% initiated by FSB, an FSB leader stated on video that he had to force the local councils to support independence from Ukraine. There are no "pro-Russian" parts of Ukraine anymore, if there ever were. All the pro-independence people are getting literally killed in a war that Putin started for Putin's benefit. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/2019_Ukrainian_parliamentary_election https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/c/cd/%D0%A0%D0%B5%D0%B7%D1%83%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B8_%D0%9F%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%82%D1%81%D1%8C%D0%BA%D0%B8%D1%85_%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%96%D0%B2_%D0%B2_%D0%A3%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%97%D0%BD%D1%96_2019_%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BA%D1%83_%D0%B7%D0%B0_%D0%BE%D0%BA%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B3%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%B8.svg/1280px-%D0%A0%D0%B5%D0%B7%D1%83%D0%BB%D1%8C%D1%82%D0%B0%D1%82%D0%B8_%D0%9F%D0%B0%D1%80%D0%BB%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%B5%D0%BD%D1%82%D1%81%D1%8C%D0%BA%D0%B8%D1%85_%D0%B2%D0%B8%D0%B1%D0%BE%D1%80%D1%96%D0%B2_%D0%B2_%D0%A3%D0%BA%D1%80%D0%B0%D1%97%D0%BD%D1%96_2019_%D1%80%D0%BE%D0%BA%D1%83_%D0%B7%D0%B0_%D0%BE%D0%BA%D1%80%D1%83%D0%B3%D0%B0%D0%BC%D0%B8.svg.png The parts that voted for a pro Russian party? There are 2 million Ukrainian refugees who chose to live in Russia rather than in Europe. Maybe some of them? The soldiers who have been fighting against the central government for the past 10 years? I'll make it simple: do you think people in northern Ireland want to be part of Ireland, or the UK? Anyway, fuck Putin for starting this mess. Any poll or other means of gathering support data AFTER areas have been occupied is invalid. People were being held at gun point to vote. Go back to the 1991 polling shown earlier. That is as close as it would ever get, coming freshly out from under the USSR. The fact Little Green Men (Wagner and Spetsnaz) were necessary demonstrate there was not popular support for Russia so they infiltrated some. I don’t know why you are determined to show some oblasts really really wanted to be Russian. That is a lie. A straight up Russian narrative unhinged from reality. Those are voting results from Ukrainian controlled territories. Yes all of Ukraine when it was controlled by Ukraine. You don’t count results after an army has invaded and occupied! What is your point? The eastern most parts of Ukraine voted majority for a pro Russian party. I don't see how this is any different than northern Ireland in this regard. Hold up... you are saying Ukraine does not have the right to its sovereign borders since 1991 because of some pro-russians? that would be like all the millions of illegals in texas "voting" for texas to become a part of mexico.. 
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Posted: 8/4/2023 3:33:51 PM EDT
[#16]
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Posted: 8/4/2023 3:34:51 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Logcutter: You have a way with words. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Logcutter: Originally Posted By Auto5guy: ....and it's just the lube to get the "THEY COULD HAVE PEACE TOMORROW" dildo into the ass of the conversation. You have a way with words. Agreed, I've been laughing at that since I read it. 
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Posted: 8/4/2023 3:40:16 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: I think there is a huge difference between the occasional asshole that pops in and drops the "Russia is winning" or "Zelensky is a cross-dressing Jew-nazi"...BS and someone who asks 'why doesnt Ukraine trade land for peace'. It is probably naive and we probably disagree with that option but it is a valid question. Even if someone has been getting some RU talking points from the net, it is smart, critical thinking involved, to come here and ask about it. It's even brave considering our collective intolerance and troll-paranoia. By that logic, I should be banned from the tech forums because I think 40SW is better than 9 and 45. Being misinformed doesnt make people the enemy and like sinners going to church, thus place is EXACTLY where they should come to get set straight with some gentle lovin... Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: Originally Posted By AeroEngineer: Exactly. People who regurgitate Russian propaganda = trolls I don't think there's any room in this thread to discuss should Ukraine be fighting or a should we support them. I think there is a huge difference between the occasional asshole that pops in and drops the "Russia is winning" or "Zelensky is a cross-dressing Jew-nazi"...BS and someone who asks 'why doesnt Ukraine trade land for peace'. It is probably naive and we probably disagree with that option but it is a valid question. Even if someone has been getting some RU talking points from the net, it is smart, critical thinking involved, to come here and ask about it. It's even brave considering our collective intolerance and troll-paranoia. By that logic, I should be banned from the tech forums because I think 40SW is better than 9 and 45. Being misinformed doesnt make people the enemy and like sinners going to church, thus place is EXACTLY where they should come to get set straight with some gentle lovin... A big difference is that you wouldn't deny that you ever said that 40SW is better. Or say, "I said I 'THINK' 40SW is better, not that it is better". Once someone starts lying and weaseling like that they lose the benefit of the doubt and deserve to be called out as a troll. |
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Posted: 8/4/2023 3:41:27 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Logcutter: You have a way with words. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Logcutter: Originally Posted By Auto5guy: ....and it's just the lube to get the "THEY COULD HAVE PEACE TOMORROW" dildo into the ass of the conversation. You have a way with words. |
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Posted: 8/4/2023 3:42:12 PM EDT
[#20]
Now.
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USA
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Posted: 8/4/2023 3:42:31 PM EDT
[#21]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: I agree with this also. Zelensky campaigned on trading "some" territory for peace. So there is/was some consideration for it. Although now it would be difficult seeing how Russia is untrustworthy and considers Ukraine a non-entity. But assuming both sides are sufficiently spent in battle and agree to it, I say why not. But Ukraine better join NATO and have a nuke program. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: Originally Posted By Bakelite47: I think the truth is difficult to tell. But we do know in general the candidate that the east voted for what ousted in the euromaidan Protests. I know the Russian military was involved in Ukraine early on, but there were definitely legitimate (as in Ukrainian) Ukrainian separatists as well. In my personal opinion if the Ukrainians can't take back their land in the next year, they would be better off with a treaty that traded some amount of land (maybe return to 2020 borders? Or return of all of the east in exchange for recognition of Crimea?) for peace. But as I said before, it's their choice to fight and die, and we should be supplying them with the weapons they need as long as they want to fight. I agree with this also. Zelensky campaigned on trading "some" territory for peace. So there is/was some consideration for it. Although now it would be difficult seeing how Russia is untrustworthy and considers Ukraine a non-entity. But assuming both sides are sufficiently spent in battle and agree to it, I say why not. But Ukraine better join NATO and have a nuke program. That was 2019….I doubt he’s inclined to give them shit now. According to the press behind the scenes he’s a fan of taking Budanov’s leash off and the only thing stopping him is the political considerations. |
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Posted: 8/4/2023 3:42:44 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jaehaerys: Upgraded MLRS set for Finland after US State Department approves $395 million deal. If our .mil industrial complex could get its shit together we could sell a lot of great gear to allied countries and make some money. |
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Posted: 8/4/2023 3:42:47 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime: In September, the Directorate of Citizenship and Migration Affairs of Latvia will send letters to 5-6 thousand Russian citizens asking them to leave the country This was stated by Ingmars Lidaka, the head of the Seimas Commission on Citizenship, Migration and Social Cohesion. According to him, we are talking about those who did not even try to pass the check for obtaining the status of a permanent resident of the EU (in particular, to pass an exam on knowledge of the Latvian language) or to obtain a temporary residence permit. https://t.me/operativnoZSU/108586
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Posted: 8/4/2023 3:47:11 PM EDT
[#24]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Auto5guy: You also use the term "Ukraine controlled territories". That's russian double talk BULLSHIT! There are no "Ukraine controlled territories". There is UKRAINE!!! And russian occupied areas of UKRAINE! We don't refer to Iowa or Alabama as American controlled territories. If I was from Alabama, I don't think I'd disagree with "American controlled territories"... |
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AK, USA
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Posted: 8/4/2023 3:51:58 PM EDT
[Last Edit: AlaskaJohn]
[#25]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Bakelite47: ... Yeah, I also don't have any info on mass forced deportations happening, maybe you have a source? ... Filtration Camps? https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russian_filtration_camps_for_Ukrainians Ukrainians have been forcibly relocated to Russia, with about 250,000 of these being children. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_abductions_in_the_Russian_invasion_of_Ukraine |
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Posted: 8/4/2023 3:54:56 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RSM: If I was from Alabama, I don't think I'd disagree with "American controlled territories"...  Fair enough! I know there are plenty who think of Kalifornistan as an American controlled territory. |
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Posted: 8/4/2023 3:55:47 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Tiberius: That was 2019….I doubt he’s inclined to give them shit now. According to the press behind the scenes he’s a fan of taking Budanov’s leash off and the only thing stopping him is the political considerations. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Tiberius: Originally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: Originally Posted By Bakelite47: I think the truth is difficult to tell. But we do know in general the candidate that the east voted for what ousted in the euromaidan Protests. I know the Russian military was involved in Ukraine early on, but there were definitely legitimate (as in Ukrainian) Ukrainian separatists as well. In my personal opinion if the Ukrainians can't take back their land in the next year, they would be better off with a treaty that traded some amount of land (maybe return to 2020 borders? Or return of all of the east in exchange for recognition of Crimea?) for peace. But as I said before, it's their choice to fight and die, and we should be supplying them with the weapons they need as long as they want to fight. I agree with this also. Zelensky campaigned on trading "some" territory for peace. So there is/was some consideration for it. Although now it would be difficult seeing how Russia is untrustworthy and considers Ukraine a non-entity. But assuming both sides are sufficiently spent in battle and agree to it, I say why not. But Ukraine better join NATO and have a nuke program. That was 2019….I doubt he’s inclined to give them shit now. According to the press behind the scenes he’s a fan of taking Budanov’s leash off and the only thing stopping him is the political considerations. I think that if Western support got pulled, the Ukrainians could hurt the Russians in a lot gnarly ways that they're currently not willing to do because of political concerns. I also think they'd go full UPA at that point as a way to undermine Russian control over the occupied territories. |
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Posted: 8/4/2023 3:56:25 PM EDT
[Last Edit: Capta]
[#28]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Lieh-tzu: Another cheerful, uplifting video from Russian Media Monitor: Ukrainians can't be spoken to or negotiated with, they are godless pagans and must be burned.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n0WAPHQX49sBetter than 50/50 chance that when he mentions demons/satanism/paganism, he’s actually talking about the Jews. |
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Posted: 8/4/2023 4:00:51 PM EDT
[Last Edit: AlmightyTallest]
[#29]
After months of waiting we can finally talk about the UK delivering AIM-132 ASRAAM missileson SupaCat trucks to Ukraine. The missiles have been used to shoot down russian cruise missiles and attack helicopters. https://twitter.com/noclador/status/1687516943924809748
 Passive IR seeker that is more advanced, and images the target, and can reject countermeasures. 
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Posted: 8/4/2023 4:02:20 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jaehaerys: I think that if Western support got pulled, the Ukrainians could hurt the Russians in a lot gnarly ways that they're currently not willing to do because of political concerns. I also think they'd go full UPA at that point as a way to undermine Russian control over the occupied territories. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jaehaerys: Originally Posted By Tiberius: Originally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: Originally Posted By Bakelite47: I think the truth is difficult to tell. But we do know in general the candidate that the east voted for what ousted in the euromaidan Protests. I know the Russian military was involved in Ukraine early on, but there were definitely legitimate (as in Ukrainian) Ukrainian separatists as well. In my personal opinion if the Ukrainians can't take back their land in the next year, they would be better off with a treaty that traded some amount of land (maybe return to 2020 borders? Or return of all of the east in exchange for recognition of Crimea?) for peace. But as I said before, it's their choice to fight and die, and we should be supplying them with the weapons they need as long as they want to fight. I agree with this also. Zelensky campaigned on trading "some" territory for peace. So there is/was some consideration for it. Although now it would be difficult seeing how Russia is untrustworthy and considers Ukraine a non-entity. But assuming both sides are sufficiently spent in battle and agree to it, I say why not. But Ukraine better join NATO and have a nuke program. That was 2019 .I doubt he's inclined to give them shit now. According to the press behind the scenes he's a fan of taking Budanov's leash off and the only thing stopping him is the political considerations. I think that if Western support got pulled, the Ukrainians could hurt the Russians in a lot gnarly ways that they're currently not willing to do because of political concerns. I also think they'd go full UPA at that point as a way to undermine Russian control over the occupied territories. They certainly wouldn't have to pussy foot around with the Free Russia Legion hit and run tactics and could roll into places like Belgorod to take and HOLD russian territory with uniformed Ukrainian soldiers. |
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Posted: 8/4/2023 4:09:08 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Auto5guy: They certainly wouldn't have to pussy foot around with the Free Russia Legion hit and run tactics and could roll into places like Belgorod to take and HOLD russian territory with uniformed Ukrainian soldiers. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Auto5guy: Originally Posted By Jaehaerys: Originally Posted By Tiberius: Originally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: Originally Posted By Bakelite47: I think the truth is difficult to tell. But we do know in general the candidate that the east voted for what ousted in the euromaidan Protests. I know the Russian military was involved in Ukraine early on, but there were definitely legitimate (as in Ukrainian) Ukrainian separatists as well. In my personal opinion if the Ukrainians can't take back their land in the next year, they would be better off with a treaty that traded some amount of land (maybe return to 2020 borders? Or return of all of the east in exchange for recognition of Crimea?) for peace. But as I said before, it's their choice to fight and die, and we should be supplying them with the weapons they need as long as they want to fight. I agree with this also. Zelensky campaigned on trading "some" territory for peace. So there is/was some consideration for it. Although now it would be difficult seeing how Russia is untrustworthy and considers Ukraine a non-entity. But assuming both sides are sufficiently spent in battle and agree to it, I say why not. But Ukraine better join NATO and have a nuke program. That was 2019 .I doubt he's inclined to give them shit now. According to the press behind the scenes he's a fan of taking Budanov's leash off and the only thing stopping him is the political considerations. I think that if Western support got pulled, the Ukrainians could hurt the Russians in a lot gnarly ways that they're currently not willing to do because of political concerns. I also think they'd go full UPA at that point as a way to undermine Russian control over the occupied territories. They certainly wouldn't have to pussy foot around with the Free Russia Legion hit and run tactics and could roll into places like Belgorod to take and HOLD russian territory with uniformed Ukrainian soldiers. I wouldn't want to be a collaborator, a Russian settler, a propagandist that has been featured on Russian state TV, etc. under those circumstances. The Ukrainians have a history of being vicious partisans, and if Western support was actually stopped, that tradition would likely make a return. |
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Posted: 8/4/2023 4:09:09 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime:
There have been a couple BUK videos recently, and I know at least one of them was posted. But this one’s delightful and will bear the dupage.
And just for completeness, here’s the other impressive one.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F2oVWNhWsAI9NqU?format=jpg&name=medium
Gotta be one of the most massive mistakes of all time for Ukraine to give up its nukes and delivery systems. Bill Clinton, to his credit, actually apologized for his role in that in an interview. Downside is everyone now will have to get nukes. |
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PA, USA
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Posted: 8/4/2023 4:12:46 PM EDT
[#33]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Brok3n:
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/65378/dfhfhip_PNG-2907803.png  That’s a big loss if Ukraine can cut the land bridge and the Kerch bridge. I think they might be able to save it though it’s going to take a while. I was hoping they would aim further back and try to take out the machinery spaces. Russia would have harder time fixing that quickly. |
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Posted: 8/4/2023 4:19:07 PM EDT
[#34]
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Posted: 8/4/2023 4:19:58 PM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By AlmightyTallest: Drone bombing a T-90 while it runs away after the drone found the drift offset from the first bomb.
Helluva shot on a moving target. |
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Posted: 8/4/2023 4:24:57 PM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jaehaerys: I'm increasingly of the belief that the Russians are fighting rather stupidly at the strategic level, in all honesty. They created the ultimate defense in depth, but they're not actually using it. They're not surrendering any ground unless they're forced out, even when it would be tactically advantageous to do so. If they lose any ground, they're aggressively counter attacking to take it back, and likely incurring significant losses in the process. That's fine if holding and/or retaking ground is more important than preserving personnel, but the Russians don't have unlimited reserves, and the ground they're bleeding to defend right now has almost no strategic importance. Of course, the Ukrainians are suffering significant losses too, but with the labyrinth of defenses the Russians have set up, analysts like Kofman and Lee shouldn't be saying that they're actually coming out on the worse end of the attrition equation. They believed their own hype from the last 70+ years, while forgetting what that war cost them and who made it possible. |
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Posted: 8/4/2023 4:27:24 PM EDT
[#37]
Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest:
Drone bombing a T-90 while it runs away after the drone found the drift offset from the first bomb. [/quo te]That was impressive. I think the footage was sped up though. |
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Posted: 8/4/2023 4:28:26 PM EDT
[Last Edit: BillofRights]
[#38]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By doc540: there needs some way to permanently codify this truth: "you can't win by trying to out kill Russia" Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By doc540: Originally Posted By Jaehaerys: I'm increasingly of the belief that the Russians are fighting rather stupidly at the strategic level, in all honesty. They created the ultimate defense in depth, but they're not actually using it. They're not surrendering any ground unless they're forced out, even when it would be tactically advantageous to do so. If they lose any ground, they're aggressively counter attacking to take it back, and likely incurring significant losses in the process. That's fine if holding and/or retaking ground is more important than preserving personnel, but the Russians don't have unlimited reserves, and the ground they're bleeding to defend right now has almost no strategic importance. Of course, the Ukrainians are suffering significant losses too, but with the labyrinth of defenses the Russians have set up, analysts like Kofman and Lee shouldn't be saying that they're actually coming out on the worse end of the attrition equation. there needs some way to permanently codify this truth: "you can't win by trying to out kill Russia" Sure you can. WW-I is the classic example, but it would have worked in the Sequel too, if not for those meddling Brits and Americans. |
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Posted: 8/4/2023 4:28:54 PM EDT
[Last Edit: AlmightyTallest]
[#39]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By m35ben: Originally Posted By AlmightyTallest: Drone bombing a T-90 while it runs away after the drone found the drift offset from the first bomb. [/quo te]That was impressive. I think the footage was sped up though. It was sped up and slowed down in spots. |
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Posted: 8/4/2023 4:29:35 PM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Prime:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/F2oWJl6WYAInMkm?format=jpg&name=large
This is the opportunity to start rolling Wagner up in Africa. Look for certain advisors embedded with said west African force to provide leadership and capabilities to strike Wagner targets. If France has determined the coup is a direct attack on their energy infrastructure, then Wagner has reached the “find out” stage. |
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Posted: 8/4/2023 4:32:45 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Capta: This is the opportunity to start rolling Wagner up in Africa. Look for certain advisors embedded with said west African force to provide leadership and capabilities to strike Wagner targets. If France has determined the coup is a direct attack on their energy infrastructure, then Wagner has reached the “find out” stage. Biden is the GOAT of lost opportunities. It's not gonna happen and the butcher's bill down the road will be enormous. |
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Posted: 8/4/2023 4:32:55 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Auto5guy: Straight up russian talking points are pretty harshly frowned upon. Land for peace is one of those talking points the orcs push. Saying the same thing is going to get one pegged as a russian troll/shill. Most here understand that the russian strategy is that of a constrictor snake. They squeeze and any concession is taken without reprieve as they squeeze tighter and tighter without relenting. Any land they are given is only going to be used to stage their next land grab. And that's not the only russian talking point you keep spouting. You keep pointing to Northern Ireland but IT IS NOT ANALOGIOUS. Northern Ireland is still populated by... the IRISH, not the British. russia fully intends to cleanse the lands of Ukraine of Ukrainian people and replace them with russians. THEY HAVE OPENLY STATED IT! You also use the term "Ukraine controlled territories". That's russian double talk BULLSHIT! There are no "Ukraine controlled territories". There is UKRAINE!!! And russian occupied areas of UKRAINE! We don't refer to Iowa or Alabama as American controlled territories. THEY ARE AMERICA! I had some very old relatives that would have disagreed with you on that one!
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AL, USA
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Posted: 8/4/2023 4:34:55 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Capta: Gotta be one of the most massive mistakes of all time for Ukraine to give up its nukes and delivery systems. Bill Clinton, to his credit, actually apologized for his role in that in an interview. Downside is everyone now will have to get nukes. Brought to you by the same party that loves gun control. Same results. "Disarm and we will keep you safe" never works, in fact it all but guarantees your assault. |
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Posted: 8/4/2023 4:40:50 PM EDT
[#44]
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Posted: 8/4/2023 4:40:50 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Auto5guy: The parts in red are the unforgivable direct, word for word, russian talking points and are what make him a troll. The second quote in blue is what makes him a liar. In my opinion Bakelite is a troll/shill, just a little more subtle version than we are used to. The red part is exactly what russia wants. He can weasel and claim his statement is not a suggested action but it is the undermining of the Ukraine position that russia wants and no matter what else he says that is pro Ukraine or anti russia it's irrelevant. He can say "fuck putin", "we should support Ukraine", "I want Ukraine to win", and it's just the lube to get the "THEY COULD HAVE PEACE TOMORROW" dildo into the ass of the conversation. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Auto5guy: Originally Posted By Bakelite47: They're losing tons of bright men in the trenches, women are leaving as refugees, their shit is getting bombed constantly. They could have peace tomorrow, but they would have to give up land. Which they are not willing to do. Imo they would be better off without the pro Russian parts of Ukraine, but it's not my country. Originally Posted By Bakelite47: When did I ever say I support Russia in this war? When did I ever say Ukraine needs to give up land? When did I ever say that the US should not support Ukraine? The parts in red are the unforgivable direct, word for word, russian talking points and are what make him a troll. The second quote in blue is what makes him a liar. In my opinion Bakelite is a troll/shill, just a little more subtle version than we are used to. The red part is exactly what russia wants. He can weasel and claim his statement is not a suggested action but it is the undermining of the Ukraine position that russia wants and no matter what else he says that is pro Ukraine or anti russia it's irrelevant. He can say "fuck putin", "we should support Ukraine", "I want Ukraine to win", and it's just the lube to get the "THEY COULD HAVE PEACE TOMORROW" dildo into the ass of the conversation. Hear hear! |
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Posted: 8/4/2023 4:41:39 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Saltwater-Hillbilly: Don't worry about it; if you make it to Fort Myers, I've got a spare room  . In all seriousness, a better analogy would be if the Upper South and lower Midwest got sick and tired of Pennsylvania and Maryland's crap and decided to invade. In a lot of places, the borders between states are very arbitrary (as in "the Original Mason/Dixon line"), and a lot of western Maryland and western Pennsylvania is ethically and culturally closer to states immediately to the west and south than they are to the eastern portions of Pennsylvania and Maryland that are politically dominant (think the Baltimore/Philly/DC/NoVA axis vs Butler, PA). Southern Georgia and Florida, despite Florida being more ethnically diverse, tend to share a worldview and an amused tolerance for each other that is definitely missing in the Russia/Ukraine fight (outside of college football rivalries). In the case of PA/Maryland being invaded, if you went east, you would likely be fleeing not only through the fighting, but if you survive, relying on the folks you think hate you and want to change or even exterminate your way of life (with some justification). The ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine will be the biggest losers in this war no matter who wins.Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Saltwater-Hillbilly: Originally Posted By ITCHY-FINGER: Originally Posted By Bakelite47: Could be. Maybe people on the fence about Russia hated them after they invaded. But how do you explain the 3 million who chose to be refugees in Russia rather than in Europe? People flee wherever they can to survive. If Georgia invaded FL and the front line was in Orlando 100 miles South of me, would I try to drag my family over that 100 miles of heavy fighting, attempt to cross the front line in my wife's SUV so I could get to Palm Beach. Or would I just get them to Lake City o Jax covering 100 miles of occupied territory with zero fighting? What if I had most of my family in Alabama and knew no one in unoccupied FL? Probably a large % of those who fled to Russia were ethnic Russians who just assumed (like 99% of the rest of the world) that Russia was unstoppable and it's better to just keep your head down and go with the flow. Don't worry about it; if you make it to Fort Myers, I've got a spare room . In all seriousness, a better analogy would be if the Upper South and lower Midwest got sick and tired of Pennsylvania and Maryland's crap and decided to invade. In a lot of places, the borders between states are very arbitrary (as in "the Original Mason/Dixon line"), and a lot of western Maryland and western Pennsylvania is ethically and culturally closer to states immediately to the west and south than they are to the eastern portions of Pennsylvania and Maryland that are politically dominant (think the Baltimore/Philly/DC/NoVA axis vs Butler, PA). Southern Georgia and Florida, despite Florida being more ethnically diverse, tend to share a worldview and an amused tolerance for each other that is definitely missing in the Russia/Ukraine fight (outside of college football rivalries). In the case of PA/Maryland being invaded, if you went east, you would likely be fleeing not only through the fighting, but if you survive, relying on the folks you think hate you and want to change or even exterminate your way of life (with some justification). The ethnic Russians in eastern Ukraine will be the biggest losers in this war no matter who wins.Someone please have their free state invade upstate NY. Maybe we can trade upstate NY for Philly with PA. Then tax the sh!t outta the power that flows down into NYC to make up for the 'loss'. |
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Posted: 8/4/2023 4:43:55 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RockNwood: Cleansing Poland of Soviet trash https://twitter.com/visegrad24/status/1687390373897723904 https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/494438/IMG_2583-2907819.jpg I’m a fan of doing something like the Soviets did - melt everything down and turn it against the occupier. Of course there’s room to be creative. |
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Posted: 8/4/2023 4:49:03 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By Jaehaerys: I wouldn't want to be a collaborator, a Russian settler, a propagandist that has been featured on Russian state TV, etc. under those circumstances. The Ukrainians have a history of being vicious partisans, and if Western support was actually stopped, that tradition would likely make a return. Yeah, there's zero reason to think they wouldn't go at least as far as the French did with their traitors. In fact they could go a lot farther and I still wouldn't blame them.      |
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Posted: 8/4/2023 4:49:22 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RockNwood:
Really excellent point that Russian ships may be safe behind extensive barriers at port. But once the try to be used in the Black Sea they become reachable targets by sea drones. Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RockNwood:
Really excellent point that Russian ships may be safe behind extensive barriers at port. But once the try to be used in the Black Sea they become reachable targets by sea drones. Despite enhanced security measures at its largest naval base and largest commercial port, the Russian Navy is unable to defend itself against attacks by Ukrainian maritime drones. The drones have demonstrated outstanding technical characteristics: to plan an attack on Novorossiysk, you need a drone with a range of more than 1,000 kilometers and a high quality control system. All of this was done literally from scratch, as Ukraine had not developed such weapons before the Russian invasion. Russia has effectively blocked Ukraine's maritime trade by attacking ports and ships in Ukrainian waters, stealing and exporting Ukrainian grain and metal, and now Ukraine has the capabilities to respond symmetrically. Russian ships and maritime trade are a legitimate target for Ukrainian retaliation. Not only in the Black Sea, but also far beyond the Black Sea. Russian ships and vessels can no longer feel safe anywhere. It’s not only an attack on a military target, it’s a demonstration that if Russia actually tries a hard blockade then Ukrainian will institute commerce war as well. Russia has been successful thus far threatening damage against civilian shipping without actually having to do it. Ukraine can now do likewise and Russia can’t afford to have freight to Rostov and Novorossiysk interrupted. This is bigger news than it looks like. |
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Posted: 8/4/2023 4:52:00 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryOriginally Posted By RockNwood: Get out your wallets! Want!
https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/494438/IMG_2591-2907839.jpg OK I do want that. |
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