I AM THE ONE WHO DWELLS WITHIN!

Quoted: Quoted: I only believe in Raj and one day he will surely destroy this world... FSM is SOOOO gonna smite you for that. Repent and give me your MP5 and maybe he will spare you.

Raj is simply the instrument of FSM.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I only believe in Raj and one day he will surely destroy this world... FSM is SOOOO gonna smite you for that. Repent and give me your MP5 and maybe he will spare you. Raj is simply the instrument of FSM.

damit, well I tried.

How bout I buy you a nice cold Willer

Oh and please contribute to a good and worthy cause The United Appeal for the Dead

Quoted: Quoted: LOL Yeah, I think Sylvia's spirit guide was having an off day that day. Anyway ... Not the study I read of, but along those lines. http://www.aafp.org/afp/20000201/tips/13.html Small disclaimer; this doesn't necessarily reflect my own beliefs, I just found it interesting. The authors state that this study is not statistically significant (1 in 25 chance of occuring randomly where as most scietific research requires a 1 in 95 at alpha =.05) also the results only occured in one of three measured variables. You mught want to try this... www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=10796350&dopt=Citation www.nwhealth.edu/nhc/pdf/prayerca.pdf www.springerlink.com/(tojw3k312akfnr45qimepm55)/app/home/contribution.asp?referrer=parent&backto=issue,10,11;journal,111,167;linkingpublicationresults,1:104938,1 Thia guy is funny.  He is with the "institute for transpersonal psycology" and clearly wants to suggest that prayer will help and quotes several studies, not one of which are statistically significant. www.integral-inquiry.com/docs/649/empirical.pdf

Thanks for the links, it's a fascinating subject. In this study www.nwhealth.edu/nhc/pdf/prayerca.pdf in conclusion, they do state that, although their study did not show a significant benefit of intercessionary prayer, that other studies had shown apparent benefits and that it deserves further exploration. The truth seems to be that they can't discount it, even thought they can't scientifically quantify it. There have been, I believe, over 250 studies conducted on the benefit of IP from both ends of the spectrum, by everyone from respected medical institutions to complete crackpots. Next time I go to the library I will try to find the reference for the study I mentioned.

Myself, I'd kind of rather they spent the research money on finding the cure for cancer.

Thanks for an interesting start to my Monday.

Since I believe the Bible, I believe in demonic posession.

Nevertheless, the evil that resides in the human heart is usually a sufficient explanation for most monsterous behavior in this world.

The Bible paints the picture of a vast spiritual world which man does not posess the capacity to see or truly know, and says that this world is full of agents who seek to do harm to man. Man in such an envirionment, because of his limitations, is like a toddler loose on a freeway which happens to be used to transport busloads of child molesters as well as good people.

In other words, it is full of dangers that man cannot appreciate and things man cannot understand.

I have never personally witnessed anything demonic or experienced anything demonic in the "exorcist" sense of the word.

There are more subtle means of influence that would be open to such entities, however, which are probably more common among more "civilized" people.

Quoted: I only believe in Raj and one day he will surely destroy this world...

OUT!!! OUT YOU DEMON!!!!

Quoted: If you don't believe in it, you haven't seen enough of human life, because people do things which are otherwise totally inexplicable. I've seen some of those things, and that's what led me to believe that "demonic possession" is not a metaphor.

Well a lot of people are fricking crazy/ mentally ill.

Verbal: Who is Keyser Soze? He is supposed to be Turkish. Some say his father was German. Nobody believed he was real. Nobody ever saw him or knew anybody that ever worked directly for him, but to hear Kobayashi tell it, anybody could have worked for Soze. You never knew. That was his power. The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.

I have interacted with people who were just plain mean, people who were mentally ill, people who were inclicned towards crimainal behavior, and on two occasions people who were possessed.

My answer is a most definate yes.

I do not believe in extraterrestrials, only because I have not yet come face to face with one.

Quoted: People are evil enough as it is. No need to blame it on the supernatural.

so where does the "natural" end and the "supernatural" begin?

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I respect other's beliefs, as long as they don't tell me that I am going to hell, or that they will "pray for me". Put more candidly, you don't respect others' beliefs unless they conform to your standards. That means you only respect others' beliefs if they do conform to your standards. That means you only respect your own beliefs. How grand of you. What the hell are you talking about? You are very right about me only respecting other's beliefs if they conform to my standards.  There are limits to what a person can tolerate.  However, my standards are very reasonable.  I just don't like people threatening me with the wrath of God because I don't believe in the flying spaghetti monster.   If someone believes that grabbing a man's package will grant him passage to heaven, I will respect them as long as they don't grab my package.   I love how you are preaching complete tolerance, sounds familiar.   I'm sure you would love it if a religion based on eating babies came along and tried to eat your children.    Would you respect that?  Would you allow them to eat your babies?

No. But then I'm not the one who made a bogus claim of respect for the beliefs of others. The pincher of that verbal loaf would be you.

I respect other people. I respect their right to believe whatever they wish. I leave them alone if they don't interfere with me.  As for beliefs, however, I have no particular respect. The beliefs I found to be sensible and true, I adopted as my own. The beliefs I have encountered and not adopted are the ones I find to be stupid or foolish. I have no respect for stupid and foolish things, and I don't tout my broad-mindedness by claiming that I do.

I know plenty of people who are missionaries in 3rd world countries.  They have many stories of demon possesion.

There are accounts of tribal people who came to faith in Christ and recounted numerous times they were indwelt with a demon.

Many take intoxicants, use chants, go into trances.

There is also an account of a former witch-doctor telling his past demon possesions of going into a trance and actually seeing the demon approach him and indwell him.

ETA: many of the demons possess these people while making them believe they are their ancestors.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: There are a few things I've yet to outrule in this life. There's ALWAYS a rational answer.  Attributing it to "god" or supernatural forces is just a cop out for finding out the truth +1

Those that have worked ER, have no doubt about demonic possession and those possessed since we get to meet them occasionally. Or go have fun like the 15 of us that it took to put leather restraints on one after he attack two other nurses.

wganz
¶

Quoted: Quoted: There are a few things I've yet to outrule in this life. There's ALWAYS a rational answer.  Attributing it to "god" or supernatural forces is just a cop out for finding out the truth

oh, dear--you must be a student.  it is generally those with the least amount of knowledge that are the most sophomoric about things of this nature.  the only thing that prevents me from mocking you outright is that i was once just like you.  for your consideration, i'll submit the philosophical quandry of "buridian's ass", and the notion that, from a single drop of water, the wise man can infer an ocean.  

a snake, born in a hose, would believe the universe to be one-dimensional.  give this some consideration, and i think you'll see my point.

as to the topic at hand, i absolutely accept the possibility of posession, though i've never seen any evidence firsthand.  let me put it this way:

i believe that my aenima is not just a physical byproduct--that is, i have the spark of sentient life--that which some would call a "soul".  if i am, indeed, an entity beyond that which makes up my physiology, then my posession of this "spirit" ipso facto means that other people do, as well.  if that is the case, it follows that we live in a "spiritual" landscape, populated by who-knows-what.

if my "soul" is more than just a product of my physicality, there is an "attachment" so to speak--a connection between the two.  and if other spiritual entities exist, they would also be able to access that attachment point, given the right set of circumstances, especially if they are more potent or powerful than me.

so i have to acknowledge the possibility, but i won't say i "believe in" the validity of posession until i see it first-hand.

yes

Almost 10 years ago I encountered a case of true possession.

I was a teacher at the time and worked in a program that was designed to allow student that were not able to attend class to get credit for attending school.  It was called a "homebound" program.  I had many students with various diseases as well as students that could not go to school because of violent behavior problems or criminal status.

One of my students was a 6 year old female that was prevented from attending school because of violent episodes.  During these episodes, she would babble, scream, and exhibit the strength of a strong adult male.  It would require a number of ADULT teachers and aides to subdue her.  She was able to throw a regular size student desk across the room.

She had an entire battery of doctors that worked with her to no effect at all.  She had a very bad family environment at all levels.  It should be noted that her family was involved in a voodoo cult.

Until meeting with her a number of times, I had assumed that she had severe psychological problems.  However, after a number of meetings, I began to think that she might be possessed.  I also realized that she could read minds during her "possessions"!  I decided to test my theory.  So the next time that I went to her home, I was sitting behind her and THOUGHT to myself the following:  "If you are really possessed, then get up from your chair and go pick up the shoes in the corner."  That that moment, she turned in her chair and stood up.  She walked to the corner and picked up the shoes and then turned to me and smiled.  She set the shoes back down and walked back to her chair and went back to work.

I had a coworker that came to the same conclusions due to similar experiences.  She terrorized and attacked everyone that worked with her except me and the one other coworker that came to the same conclusion as me.  She feared the two of us greatly and would writhe in pain sometimes just from being in our presence.  The rest of the time, she would cower.  I could get her to work only if she did not have to look at me.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I respect other's beliefs, as long as they don't tell me that I am going to hell, or that they will "pray for me". Put more candidly, you don't respect others' beliefs unless they conform to your standards. That means you only respect others' beliefs if they do conform to your standards. That means you only respect your own beliefs. How grand of you. What the hell are you talking about? You are very right about me only respecting other's beliefs if they conform to my standards.  There are limits to what a person can tolerate.  However, my standards are very reasonable.  I just don't like people threatening me with the wrath of God because I don't believe in the flying spaghetti monster.   If someone believes that grabbing a man's package will grant him passage to heaven, I will respect them as long as they don't grab my package.   I love how you are preaching complete tolerance, sounds familiar.   I'm sure you would love it if a religion based on eating babies came along and tried to eat your children.    Would you respect that?  Would you allow them to eat your babies? No. But then I'm not the one who made a bogus claim of respect for the beliefs of others. The pincher of that verbal loaf would be you. I respect other people. I respect their right to believe whatever they wish. I leave them alone if they don't interfere with me.  As for beliefs, however, I have no particular respect. The beliefs I found to be sensible and true, I adopted as my own. The beliefs I have encountered and not adopted are the ones I find to be stupid or foolish. I have no respect for stupid and foolish things, and I don't tout my broad-mindedness by claiming that I do.

I still don't understand what you are saying.

I respect other people. I respect their right to believe whatever they wish. I leave them alone if they don't interfere with me.

I respect other's beliefs, as long as they don't tell me that I am going to hell, or that they will "pray for me".

Isn't that the exact same thing I said?  Maybe you didn't read it that way, but that's what I meant.

Wow.  The majority on this site (at least as represented in the poll) actually believe in demons and demonic possession.

Raj from "What's Happening?"....seriously, I have never seen a demon, or a ghost for that matter, but I do believe that evil sprits can and do afflict people and cause them to go crazy..........case in point, Adolf Hitler

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I only believe in Raj and one day he will surely destroy this world... FSM is SOOOO gonna smite you for that. Repent and give me your MP5 and maybe he will spare you. Raj is simply the instrument of FSM.

I did not used to, but what other explanation is there for 'the beast' hillary, eichmann-shumer and the rest of the political left?

Quoted: Almost 10 years ago I encountered a case of true possession. I was a teacher at the time and worked in a program that was designed to allow student that were not able to attend class to get credit for attending school.  It was called a "homebound" program.  I had many students with various diseases as well as students that could not go to school because of violent behavior problems or criminal status. One of my students was a 6 year old female that was prevented from attending school because of violent episodes.  During these episodes, she would babble, scream, and exhibit the strength of a strong adult male.  It would require a number of ADULT teachers and aides to subdue her.  She was able to throw a regular size student desk across the room. She had an entire battery of doctors that worked with her to no effect at all.  She had a very bad family environment at all levels.  It should be noted that her family was involved in a voodoo cult. Until meeting with her a number of times, I had assumed that she had severe psychological problems.  However, after a number of meetings, I began to think that she might be possessed.  I also realized that she could read minds during her "possessions"!  I decided to test my theory.  So the next time that I went to her home, I was sitting behind her and THOUGHT to myself the following:  "If you are really possessed, then get up from your chair and go pick up the shoes in the corner."  That that moment, she turned in her chair and stood up.  She walked to the corner and picked up the shoes and then turned to me and smiled.  She set the shoes back down and walked back to her chair and went back to work. I had a coworker that came to the same conclusions due to similar experiences.  She terrorized and attacked everyone that worked with her except me and the one other coworker that came to the same conclusion as me.  She feared the two of us greatly and would writhe in pain sometimes just from being in our presence.  The rest of the time, she would cower.  I could get her to work only if she did not have to look at me.

Damn...

Quoted: An internal evil spirit...sure. An external evil spirit...probably not.

+1

No god = no devil

Quoted: Almost 10 years ago I encountered a case of true possession. I was a teacher at the time and worked in a program that was designed to allow student that were not able to attend class to get credit for attending school.  It was called a "homebound" program.  I had many students with various diseases as well as students that could not go to school because of violent behavior problems or criminal status. One of my students was a 6 year old female that was prevented from attending school because of violent episodes.  During these episodes, she would babble, scream, and exhibit the strength of a strong adult male.  It would require a number of ADULT teachers and aides to subdue her.  She was able to throw a regular size student desk across the room. She had an entire battery of doctors that worked with her to no effect at all.  She had a very bad family environment at all levels.  It should be noted that her family was involved in a voodoo cult. Until meeting with her a number of times, I had assumed that she had severe psychological problems.  However, after a number of meetings, I began to think that she might be possessed.  I also realized that she could read minds during her "possessions"!  I decided to test my theory.  So the next time that I went to her home, I was sitting behind her and THOUGHT to myself the following:  "If you are really possessed, then get up from your chair and go pick up the shoes in the corner."  That that moment, she turned in her chair and stood up.  She walked to the corner and picked up the shoes and then turned to me and smiled.  She set the shoes back down and walked back to her chair and went back to work. I had a coworker that came to the same conclusions due to similar experiences.  She terrorized and attacked everyone that worked with her except me and the one other coworker that came to the same conclusion as me.  She feared the two of us greatly and would writhe in pain sometimes just from being in our presence.  The rest of the time, she would cower.  I could get her to work only if she did not have to look at me.

Wow...

Quoted: No god = no devil

+1

Quoted: Quoted: If you don't believe in it, you haven't seen enough of human life, because people do things which are otherwise totally inexplicable. I've seen some of those things, and that's what led me to believe that "demonic possession" is not a metaphor. +1 I used to be in the Historically, say in the Bible, alright. But these days where people come out and say they are posessed. Bullshit. crowd.   That was before I lived in Brazil (2 years as a missionary in Bahia, 2.5 years as a translator/interpreter in Sao Paulo).  I have seen more voodoo/black magick/macumba/candomble/etc. than I care to remember.  There is a lot to the weak-willed/minded stuff.  Suffice to say that I have seen possession first hand on multiple occasions.  I don't care to go into details.

You aren't kidding when you mention all the witchcraft going on in Latin America.  Been there and had to deal with that.

As for posessions, I haven't had to deal with any posessed people that I know of, just posessed homes.

The Savior clearly had to deal with posessed people, as mentioned by O_P and many others.  I believe.

First question: could non corporeal willful intelligences exist? I.e. disembodied beings who are either good or evil?

Metaphysically: absolutely.

OK so by definition angels or demons have no body, no parts, hence are not observable per se but only 'in act' or more accurately, indirectly as a cause for phenomena they might conjure up.

So there you go, we look at phenomena that don't have an apparent physical, chemical, psychological, moral cause (but clearly whateve the cause is, it makes use of physics, chemicals, the psyche, and to a degree human will), and come up with a hypothesis that some spirit is fiddling around with us again.

Now here's the interesting thing. I have heard of nothing that 'chases' away angels (or God). If they want to "mess" with someone or something, they pretty much can.

But demons, malevolent spirits are another thing. They obviously have been chased away - by invoking God. (or in other cultures, better angels).

In certain metaphysical theories, demons are considered 'irreal realities" in that while definiately real as existing, and certainly powerful as intelligences of malevolent will, they are less real for being less good so in a sense the weakest angel or good human is stronger than the baddest demon as being itself is considered good.

If you rebel against the very fabric of reality don't be surprised that the rules are set against you.

One other point. In the New Testament (Acts?) napkins that touched Paul or Peter were used to exorcise demons. How embarrassing it that to demons! Here they are, spiritual beings, created perhaps before the material universe itself, powerful by nature on a level beyond human imagining, certainly far more intelligent than we are.... and yet constrained by God to abandon 'ship' so to speak because an inert physical thing that just so happened to have touched a saintly man comes into their orbit.

That type of thing doesn't buff out.

Consequently, if a napkin that touched a saint can exorcise demons....what else could saints' bodies do? We're getting into sacramentals, holy water, relics, etc. not an unbiblical or out of the world deduction early Christians had based on this scripture.

Clearly anyone could go overboard on anything - so sure, maybe some where some time some one got all idolatrous about relics. But taking something to an extreme doesn't mean that same thing seen in context and balance can't be good.

JusAdBellum,

I want to touch on a few points you've mentioned.

First, I need to clarify some LDS doctrine. Some of this may or may not agree with the doctrine of other Christian sects, so I'm giving that disclaimer now.

First:  We believe that we lived with our Father in Heaven as spirits before we came to earth (Job 38:4-7)(Jeremiah 1:4-5).  We believe that we had spiritual bodies that resemble our earthly bodies.  These spiritual bodies were made up of a very real spiritual matter/material that is more fine than physical matter.

In that premortal life there was a council held but some followed Lucifer and rejected God's plan.  Those spirits kept not their first estate and were cast out (Jude 1:6)(Revelation 12:9).  

They followed Satan to earth.  They are here, all around us as our enemies.  They despise us and envy our mortal bodies because they are denied their own.  Hence, they would take the bodies of swine they are so desperate.


So, in relation to some of your thoughts:

These evil spirits do have spiritual bodies with form much like our own.  They can't experience the same things that we do with our mortal bodies, which is why they want to posess us.  They do have a very immoral and deliberate cause.  They are no phenomena, but a very real threat.

What more, they don't have more power than us (though they desperately want you to believe they do).  What they do have in their advantage is (some) knowledge.  Our minds are veiled so that we can't remember the premortal existance.  Their minds aren't veiled.  They remember you as an individual.  They know your personality and perhaps some of your weaknesses, which they exploit in order to tempt you and discourage you...at times even to try and posess you.

On our behalf God has given us the Scriptures and revelation to help guide us, to help us know of our purpose here and guide us back to God.  Even those without scripture are given the Light of Christ in order to discern good from evil if they will just heed it.  What more, we believe that God has once again called prophets and apostles to provide further revelation and guidance.  The priesthood has been restored to the earth, providing even more power to cast out Satan and his followers.  Etc.

In summary, evil spirits are a very real thing.  They are here on the earth and here there is a very real spiritual war being waged for the souls of men.

the question is, how many of the same people belive in alien life?

Quoted: the question is, how many of the same people belive in alien life?

I guess that depends on whether or not you believe God created other worlds for his children.

Quoted: the question is, how many of the same people belive in alien life?

I definitly believe in aliens, and in demons, and in God.  I actually believe there *could* be many gods, but that there is for us here on earth only one God, if that makes sense.  Otherwise where did God come from?  Saying that he just exsists is like giving in to the big bang theory, cause everything had to come from somewhere.

-Ben

Quoted: So I do not want this to turn into a religion thread, as this can be cultural beliefs as much as anything.  Who believes in people being possesed by evil "spirits"? -Ben

What is spirit other than something that's not physical? Thoughts are "spirit." So yes, I believe we can cast out evil spirits.

Now, if you mean ENTITIES (i.e. angels) when you say spirit that may be another question. I don't believe that another entity takes over in place of us the soul. I suppose it could happen but generally not. However, I do believe in evil angels (and holy angels) and I believe they can deposit thoughts (spirit) to our mind. I guess in some extreme cases they can deposit so many thoughts that we might as well be "possessed" by that entity since they're the one calling all the shots. But I think it's still us, the soul, giving into thoughts planted by another entity.

That may all be splitting hairs or semantics. Bottom line: Several of the writers of the new testament spoke of casting out evil spirits. Jesus casted out spirits and so did his disciples. That's good enough for me.

Here is my experience.

Last October 0330 I responded to a house outside my city limits to assist county, who had all got off  at 0300. I was responding to a medical call in which the EMTs wanted the scene safe before their arrival. The house I was responding to is well known because of a teenage juvenile that is always in trouble.

Upon my arrival I spoke to the mother who said she woke up because she could hear one of her sons talking loudly. To my suprise it was her other son who was never been in trouble and is a good student. She said went in his room and didn't know what to do so she dailed 911 and called the preacher.

When I entered his room (his name is Andrew) he never looked at me. It was cold in his room but he was sweating heavily. He was laying on his back, on his bed. He was moving his head left to right and his eyes were darting left to right faster than his head was turning. His breathing was very raspy like every breath was a struggle. His mom came in and sat on the edge of the bed and tried to talk to him but he never responded. Then she said his name, Andrew. He stopped moving and looked at her and said in a deep voice" I am not Andrew!" He then went back to doing what he was doing before.

I advised dispatch that it was safe for the EMTs to come in. When the EMTs came in the room they asked what his name was and the mom responded Andrew. Andrew said again in the same voice I am not Andrew! The EMTs started checking his vitals and said his vitals are messed up and we don't know what to do. Andrew started laughing in a deep voice. The EMTs radioed for another ambulance to come and help. Andrew just started talking but I couldn't understand him. It sounded like Latin or Hebrew. He went on for about a minute. Mom stated she called the preacher to come over and pray for him. Andrew sat up in bed and shouted he can't do anything for me and started talking in that langauge again.

The other EMTs arrived and had the same problem they didn't know what to do. So we put him on a strecher and straped him down. As we were taking him to the ambulance he started laughing again and said " no hospital can help me you can't cure me." His mom asked him Andrew please tell what is going on? Andrew stated " my name is not Andrew, my name is Genvoff ."( guess at the spelling ) He then went back to talking in that langauge like his mom would understand it. He got transported to a hospital.

I later learned that at the hospital the next day he just came out of it. His vitals returned to normal and he wanted to know why he was in the hospital. After speaking to some people that knew Andrew they couldn't belive it because he was always such a good kid and his brother was the one with problems. To this day he claims he has no memory of the incident.

Make of it what you will. I just wish I would have had a recorder so mabye I could figure out what he was saying.

Quoted: I believe that the universe, life, and anything else happened on its own, without any kind of divine creation or direction..

That involves an awful lot of faith to believe...

Quoted: Quoted: I believe that the universe, life, and anything else happened on its own, without any kind of divine creation or direction.. That involves an awful lot of faith to believe...

Actually a LOT less than required to embrace the writings of people who lived 2000+ years ago....and accept their version of events despite their COMPLETE lack of understanding of how the world actually worked.....especially while favoring such mythology in favor of 2000+ years of historical/scientific evidence that in no way supports the ancients.

Now THAT'S faith.

Quoted: Actually a LOT less than required to embrace the writings of people who lived 2000+ years ago....and accept their version of events despite their COMPLETE lack of understanding of how the world actually worked.....especially while favoring such mythology in favor of 2000+ years of historical/scientific evidence that in no way supports the ancients. Now THAT'S faith.

If you would take the time to actually read the Bible and put the literary forms into context, you would see that there is great insite to human nature and little has changed in 4000 years.   The only faith that is required is to believe that Jesus Christ was born crucified and rose from the dead.  Everything else is a series of lessons into human nature and how to live a happy healthy life.   Science evolves but God is eternal.