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Posted: 9/5/2008 11:45:18 AM EDT
[#1]
At least they'd be putting rounds downrange, not wondering why the trigger they keep pulling is not moving. |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 11:45:37 AM EDT
[#2]
ive only had one instance in my life where i needed to pull a gun.. I consider my self experienced at the time and i still had a hard time getting my 12 guage locked and loaded... Massive adreneline dump and all... Since i have gotten alot more training. hopefully next time ill do better. |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 11:54:46 AM EDT
[#3]
 I hope it doesn't hurt a loved one they're trying to protect. |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 11:57:48 AM EDT
[#4]
I do too. Ain't no guarantees in life. Remember, we're just trying to manipulate the odds here. Try not to shoot toward your loved ones, wouldn't you agree? If we're talking about a complete, total gun noob, do you really think that when their life is in danger they're going to remember how to operate a more complex weapon system? Maybe. Maybe not. It's better to have something that they can shoot than an expensive club. What this thread really reveals is just how important training is -- get a good carbine, learn how to use it, and your odds are greatly increased. I think you're overstating just how hard it is for a noob to shoot a DA wheel gun accurately. I've seen plenty of first time shooters put them all in a chest sized target at 10 feet. Obviously with stress accuracy on ANY platform will decrease. |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 12:05:35 PM EDT
[#5]
I'm not discounting the difficulty of hitting with a revolver. I'm just being realistic about their capabilities. 1) It's a gun. It fulfills the first rule of gunfighting. "Have a gun." 2) It's relatively idiot proof. Barring rare mechanical failure or extremely out of spec ammo it will run until empty. 3) Failure to fire is easy to fix. Pull the trigger again. 4) (Normally ;-) ) No worry about a safety. You pull the trigger & it goes off. Marksmanship can be taught. If they can't hit w/ a revolver, they probably can't hit w/ a semi auto pistol. A shotgun will probably have too much recoil for a complete neophyte shooter. A rifle is not easy to shoot w/ any training/experience. Give me half an hour w/ someone who will listen & I can make them understand the basics on a revolver. Anything w/ complicated failure drills, heavy recoil, or slides which are hard to move is going to rattle an inexperienced shooter. I see it cause problems for enough shooters in IDPA, and most of them have been doing it for years. |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 12:16:04 PM EDT
[#6]
That's a given.
No I'm not overstating it. Years ago I used to think the .357/.38 wheelgun was the best choice. Matter of fact I bought 2 stainless Rugers (a 4" and a 3") because of it. The 4" was for my wife. I figured if the SHTF I'd take the 3" along and leave my P90 (.45 ACP) behind. Then I got involved with my work's gunclub. Every year I got to go out and help teach people firearm safety and let them try out different firearms. Wanna guess what I consistantly saw? People who couldn't hit the target with revolvers except in single action. Going on what I saw, the best most 'reliable handgun for a newbie' was a Ruger .22LR semi-auto, but that is not what I'd recommend for a self defense handgun. I saw the same thing with my wife when I tried teaching her. Yet both times I presented carbines (A ruge 10/22 and later an AR-15) she was able to pickup the idea of charing the weapon and proceded to hit the target with every round. So I have "lucky to hit the target" with a handgun, vs "hit the target with every round" with a carbine. Keep the magazine in the firearm to simplify and just teach them to charge the weapon when they pick it up - it's a one time simple operation. Oh I'd also like to point out back when I was in the Guard my unit's pilots had to qualify with their .38 revolvers every year. We let them qualify in 'single action' because if they shot double action most of them wouldn't qualify.
Agreed. But if you're starting from near zero accuracy with a handgun that's a recipie for disaster. With a carbine even if half your shots miss - that's half that's connecting (and your magazine has a whole lot more than a revolver). BigBore's experiment reflects my own experiences - I've seen no data to counter the conclusion that a carbine is easier for a newbie to run & make hits than any other firearm. |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 12:18:42 PM EDT
[#7]
The OP specified that an AR-15 is not an option. Bigbore's experiment did not account for stress! Life and death situation! Suddenly a carbine becomes a lot more complex to operate. Here's what I'm saying: Put an AR-15, an 870, and a 686 on a table and ask a newbie, somebody who has hardly ever fired guns (if ever) to shoot a target 7 feet in front of them. Tell them they have one second to start firing. Which one do you think they'll have the best chances with? |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 12:22:39 PM EDT
[#8]
Not true. Again in my experiences I've seen people have problems with revolvers but did better with semi-auto .22s. For myself my shooting scores go way up when I shoot with a semi-auto vs shooting with a revolver. Shooting a double action takes more practice to get right.
I disagree. Within 5 minutes of handling an AR to my wife I had her putting all 20 rounds in an 8" paper plate at 25yards. (FYI the AR only had iron sights, no optics or lasers). This was only her second time with a rifle (the first was withe a 10-22 with a red-dot sight years earlier). See BigBore's movie posted at the top of Page 4 to see similar results.
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Posted: 9/5/2008 12:28:42 PM EDT
[#9]
A pistol caliber carbine is intrisically the same thing. A lightweight, low recoiling carbine.
Agreed. But if the person can't make hits when they have no stress, how are they going to make them when it's for real? Police hit ratios go way down when they are invovled in street shootings compared to their qualifications, I expect the same with everyday people. Only hits count. Again which firearm is most likely to give them hits on target? Big Bores experiment clearly shows the carbine is top dog.
Carbine hands down. Oh they might make noise quicker with the revolver, but they won't make the hits. |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 12:29:11 PM EDT
[#10]
Only one firearm? The following formula applies:
Rifle > Pistol Unless they're literally incapable of using a long arm do to strength, age, disability, etc. Rifle > PCC No brainer. 5.56mm trumps any PCC all day long. AK > SKS AK has higher capacity and faster reloads. Usually lighter, too. AK > Shotgun The Kalash is just as "hard/easy" for a novice to run as a shotgun. Higher capacity and faster reloads with an AK means a greater margin of error is present to help offset lack of training. I could go on all day. Of the options listed I would select the AK platform unless they are on the move in a non-permissive enviornment, in which case they would be "stuck" with a pistol simply for ease of concealment versus deployment. I don't care how much training you have: drawing from a CCW rig versus deploying your rifle from a camp chair bag, violin case, etc. will always be faster. The AK-47: When you absolutely, positively have to kill every looter on the block, accept no substitutes. |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 12:41:09 PM EDT
[#11]
Now do something to severely stress them out. See which one does better. I'm not talking about which one shoots the best groups from a bench. I'm talking about which one works at all when the person is scared out of their wits, adrenaline is running, and they have forgotten what was explained to them 2 years ago. A revolver will at least go bang. They will default to their level of training (nothing), not rise to the occasion. I wouldn't expect a non shooter to operate anything more complicated than a revolver under stress. |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 12:55:52 PM EDT
[#12]
Maybe we can talk BigBore into repeating the experiment with the young lady adding in some kind of stress.
Agreed - IF the person will keep it loaded. That's a big 'IF' as not many 'non gunners' I know of want to keep an loaded firearm in their home. If you need to start with ammo and an unloaded weapon, which will be easier & quicker to get running? Again I'd submit the magazine loaded carbine. I've got to see about running that experiment with my wife sometime and use some kind of artificial pressure. |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 12:58:49 PM EDT
[#13]
Spray her with ice cold water while she deploys all 3. Have a buddy there with an IDPA timer. The trick would be to not tell her the water's coming. Hey, at least it'd be a fun video |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 12:59:23 PM EDT
[#14]
I like the carbine idea. Mini-14 also works. An Aimpoint or EoTech would be a good idea. One of the hardest things to learn is to use the sights in a fight; the tendency is to focus on the target not the front sight. |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 1:01:23 PM EDT
[#15]
Most assailents are not going to be serious minded. Itf they are they are going to be trouble for anyone. |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 1:08:09 PM EDT
[#16]
hell yes, and i'd pay to see it! 
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Posted: 9/5/2008 1:29:30 PM EDT
[#17]
'Effectiveness' is a very 'Relative' term dependent upon your opponent. A highly trained opponent can render any advantageous weaponry in the hands of untrained people relatively ineffective. That said, any advantageous weaponry or equipment in the hands of untrained people will definitely be more effective against other 'lightly' trained opponents... |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 1:56:54 PM EDT
[#18]
A revolver in the hands of an unpracticed person under intense stress is extremely likely to miss after the range exceeds 2-3 yards.
Plus targets at the range usually sit still when you shoot at them, bad guys(eta: intent on doing harm) usually do not sit still when you point a gun at them. Conventional wisdom is just wrong about the revolver being the best choice for a beginer. |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 2:10:34 PM EDT
[#19]
The video results are not AR specific. What was shown was that: low recoiling semi-auto shoulder fired weapon with a dot optic is the easiest to run effectively with no training. I'm willing to bet the results would be identical with a CX4 with an aimpoint or a Keltech with an aimpoint... |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 2:19:03 PM EDT
[#20]
Yep. Think the 'miracle' at the beginning of Pulp Fiction. Doesn't matter how big the gun is if they can't hit anything. ETA: Longarm for beginners. Easier to aim under stress. Also: Training, training, training. Get whoever it is to practice and become familiar with whatever firearm is chosen. We never rise to the occasion in combat, only sink to our lowest level of training. |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 2:22:49 PM EDT
[#21]
Isn't the mythical average gunfight something like "3 shots at 3 yards in 3 seconds?" A revolver is guite suitable for that. |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 2:31:27 PM EDT
[#22]
Test your theory and see how it holds up, I have already proven it is wrong with new shooters, but apparently you need to see it for yourself. |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 2:35:30 PM EDT
[#23]
I've tested new shooters w/ different guns. My results have been different. I work part time at a range & end up helping quite a few people who have never picked up a gun in their life. They generally can't run a semi worth a damn. Half an hour of instruction w/ a revolver & they can generally keep them all on a B27 or Smurf at 7 yards. |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 2:35:33 PM EDT
[#24]
Revolver. 3-5 inch barrel. .357 Magnum.
The biggest overlooked issue in SHTF is how to deal with all those armed troops/police who are likely to be wandering around hunting for armed bad guys. We once had a post on this topic from a member in Argentina who had been through lots of disturbances. He said the most useful thing was a small, concealable weapon like a pistol so you could go out and run necessary errands without attracting attention. An AR is a great weapon while in the home, but a pistol is better when you have to leave it. |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 2:54:59 PM EDT
[#25]
In sterile conditions maybe, but in the real world dealing with a violent attack? Get real. And if you can't teach some one how to shoot a semi auto in thirty minutes you've got no business "helping out" people at a range. |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 3:11:09 PM EDT
[#26]
If they aren't skilled enough to load and fire an auto then they are not skilled enough to load and fire a revolver...at least not quickly enough to save themselves. If we're talking about the lowest common denominator skillwise then an auto, by your logic, is preferable since they will have approxiamtely 2-2.5 times more ammunition before the auto runs dry. As things being the same (not knowing the basics of how to load and fire) I'd rather hand someone watching my six with a loaded G19 than a loaded 686. |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 3:18:48 PM EDT
[#27]
Sidefolder AK would be my choice. Spend a day on the range, maybe get one of those fancy LaRue mini-optics, and they'll be good to go.
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Posted: 9/5/2008 3:20:03 PM EDT
[#28]
Wait, they let you have guns?
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Posted: 9/5/2008 8:30:38 PM EDT
[#29]
Shooting is the easy part. Knowing how to load it, and what to do when it inevitably doesn't run for them is harder. I can teach them how to shoot a semi in minutes. Being comfortable they can do it under stress is an entirely different issue. Muscle memory takes thousands of repetitions and they won't practice. I think we're looking at this differently. I'm looking at this for someone who knows essentially nothing about guns. They won't remember how to load it under stress. They won't practice w/ it. It needs to be able to be stored loaded so they can access it. It needs to be able to be stored safely loaded for years at a time w/o maintenance. That's why I recommend a revolver to new shooters who want a gun & won't practice with it. It fulfills rule 1, and gives them a chance. If they want a better chance they need practice. With practice more complicated systems become practical. |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 8:36:38 PM EDT
[#30]
If there are troops and police all over, security isn't generally an issue. Thus it is a false argument and a non-starter... Argentina =/= USA |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 8:37:50 PM EDT
[#31]
It's just a matter of picking the right boating lake to dive in.... 
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Posted: 9/5/2008 9:59:20 PM EDT
[#32]
Hardly. There could be patrols out but not enough to really keep the peace. But walking down main st. with an AR on your should is a good way to get shot these days. |
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Posted: 9/6/2008 8:47:16 AM EDT
[#33]
Clear something up for me Paveway. If they are not young/strong enough for an AR, why would the heavier (and harsher recoiling) AK, SKS, and 12 gaguge shotguns even be options? |
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Posted: 9/6/2008 8:54:38 AM EDT
[#34]
No one is suggesting walking down main street. However walking around your land with a long gun is perfectly kosher round these parts. |
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Posted: 9/6/2008 8:55:18 AM EDT
[#35]
AR is out due to cost (1000+ with optic per person) not due to weight/recoil.  The thread is really just a discussion; I already have my own opinions pretty much... |
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Posted: 9/6/2008 9:06:00 AM EDT
[#36]
Yeah the variables in this thread are constanly changing, I am still unclear what you were saying in the org. posting. Apprently you keep chaning the variable so they fit your opinion. For example I said Shotgun, and you cried and said to heavy, then someone says AR and you stated too expensive! Well I think the screnario is slanted to what your predetermined opinon. I still stand by the shotgun! Not to heavy and not to hard to use unless you are a wussy! |
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Posted: 9/6/2008 9:08:54 AM EDT
[#37]
They are not changing at all. RIF. AR isn't in the poll because of cost. Shotgun is in the poll. I'm sorry you got your feelings hurt because I pointed out the limitations of the shotgun - high recoil and weight. If you can't reasonably present a justification for your answer with in the context of the intended shooter (old/small/frail) then maybe you shouldn't participate in the thread... |
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Posted: 9/6/2008 9:09:50 AM EDT
[#38]
A pistol is probably the worst thing to give someone who really isnt that interested in firearms. They are the hardest out of all the firearm types to get good with. I voted for the sks, but a shotgun would also be a really good choice.
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Posted: 9/6/2008 9:51:07 AM EDT
[#39]
Like I said previously I think anyone that is old/small/or frail can handle a 20 ga. shotgun. I have a youth model for my wife and she can tear someshit up with it. So thats why I am still standing by the shotgun! |
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Posted: 9/6/2008 9:53:33 AM EDT
[#40]
thats what I saying, I am thinking PDW for a non-shooter is a last case screnario for them, therefore CQB. I mean all of the options would work, however out of them all I think the shotgun offers you the best chances of surival and eliminating your target! |
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Posted: 9/6/2008 10:03:41 AM EDT
[#41]
Well, I was offering a choice which would work regardless of where she lived. I think people underestimate the value of concealability for SHTF. |
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Posted: 9/6/2008 11:01:46 AM EDT
[#42]
Funny enough, this worked just fine for me one time when some clowns were hanging around on my property late one evening. It lets them know you are aware of their presence and armed without you having to say a word. It also gets their undivided attention. Most common thugs know that shotguns are loud and have a huge muzzle. They believe the legends that a shotgun will blow you in half with one blast and cover everything in a 20 yard range. Most of them aren't intelligent enough to question these claims either. Fortunately for me they were just wanna-be tough guys and not "operators". |
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Posted: 9/6/2008 11:56:10 AM EDT
[#43]
I'd vote for a Cx4 Storm or a PS90. For some reason, folks who aren't into guns (especially women) seem to LOVE both of those for the size, weight, and controllability. Not to mention they're relatively uncomplicated so care isn't that much of an issue for a newbie either.
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Posted: 9/6/2008 12:56:12 PM EDT
[#44]
No kidding. Having struggled through this entire thread, I still think the Beretta carbine would be idea if only on the weight / size issue. Let's remember the original question and scenario. |
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Posted: 9/6/2008 1:16:24 PM EDT
[#45]
Crimson trace makes a good training aid as well as a tactical tool. |
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Posted: 9/6/2008 1:31:34 PM EDT
[#46]
i think something very obvious is missed with alot of these posts.. this will not be a gun person so maintenece has to be at a minimum and i think that removes most if not all carbines... not saying a carbine is not a excelent choice but if you are not able/willing to clean and maintain them properly; can you attest to its reliability?
12 guage or revolver.. both are idiot proof and you can neglect the crap out of them and they will still go bang. let an AR sit in a closet for a couple of years and seasons and see what humidity and dust does to its reliability... I think that point has been missed and should get looked at when considering a PDW for a novice. Just MPO. |
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Posted: 9/6/2008 7:33:51 PM EDT
[#47]
Storm's another good choice, I'm just not familier with the cost. PS90s would be great if they any ammo that was worth a damn. Fun plinker for sure, and maybe small varmints; but not somthing I'd select for home defense using available factory ammo (reloads are out as the person is a non shooter). Too bad they don't make the PS90 in 9mm, now THAT would be slick. |
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Posted: 9/7/2008 12:09:29 AM EDT
[#48]
In that case id say the sub-2000. Its cheaper than both of those, and is just as good. It also has that nifty fold in half thing. |
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Posted: 9/7/2008 12:51:36 AM EDT
[#49]
+1 picked up one today... It is my designated Female assault weapon... just in case I need to arm a women... it's a rifle... repeated semi-auto fire... will take down a man within the ranges that a non-skilled women with very little training can hit... But a good weapon all around... good for a non-gun male or female... it just happens to be the gun I have I would give to a female over my Ar or Ak's... |
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Posted: 9/7/2008 12:51:52 AM EDT
[#50]
Lol I don't need a gun just a recording of a 12 gauge being racked and then I'll never need to touch another icky gun. 
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