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Posted: 9/5/2008 6:57:34 AM EDT
[#1]
Czech Skorpion VZ-61 Pistol. Light recoil , hi-cap magazines (20 rds) should be pretty easy for a non-shooter to be able to use with a little practice.
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Posted: 9/5/2008 7:00:13 AM EDT
[#2]
This and speaking of other similar layouts (tech 9, SMG sans stock style "pistols")... You know that is interesting since here in the states it wouldn't have a stock and it kind of forces a 2 handed hold. Might work well with a dot sight of some kind. Could SBR it, but probably not happening with a non-gun person. |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 7:02:07 AM EDT
[#3]
I handed my girlfriend my AR for the first time the other day. I just got done putting an Aimpoint on it. Her first shot, she dropped a bowling pin at about 20 yards. Though she was sitting on a picinic table, using the mag as a brace. Still pretty good. So I could believe that. |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 7:07:49 AM EDT
[#4]
Pump action shotgun would be my choice. The weapon requires little thought and very little maintenance to operate. It's also a very familiar weapon for non-shooters.
Buck shot for up close and slugs for greater range. A shotty will get it done! Make it a 20 ga if family members are small stature. |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 7:58:35 AM EDT
[#5]
+1 |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 8:31:40 AM EDT
[#6]
I voted for a Kel-Tec/PCC. I think it is one of the best REALISTIC SHTF guns out there. While this is not CCW specific, concealability is still very important. In a natural disaster, there will be police/National Guard around eventually, and they will not ask questions first of a person walking around with a long arm. In a "Red Dawn" scenario, long gun will get you shot on sight.
The Kel-Tec is easy to conceal in a backpack, under a car seat or even under a big coat. Get a G17 or 19 to cover yourself until you can get the carbine out and they take the same mags and ammo. The recoil is light and it handles easily. As a PDW, it won't be subjected to high round counts, so the reliability/durability is good enough. If you want more power, then consider the Kel-Tec .223 folding rifles. |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 8:34:17 AM EDT
[#7]
"Conventional Wisdom" says 4 inch 38/357 revolver.
"Conventional Wisdom" has obviously never seen the shooting performance of a minimally trained beginner with a double action revolver under the slightest bit of pressure. Easy to shoot yes, easy to put lead on target....not at all. Justin Kase says if one has time to run a full reliability check on gun, mags, and intended defensive ammo for the beginner. The Sig P225 is the choice, maybe a 220 or 226 for if the begginer is stronger or has bigger hands. Why? A carbine is a better choice but if it's just one gun the pistol gets the nod. Yes there is a possibility a semi will jam and it is not likely a beginner will clear it quick enough to stay in the fight, but the odds of a quality gun that has been fully check out jamming are in my opinion much less than the odds of a beginner missing or only making non lethal hits on their target when shooting a double action revolver. |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 8:54:19 AM EDT
[#8]
Lets look at the options:
SKS - too big, too heavy (jeez it's heavier than an AR - as are AKs) for a PDW. If you're going this route might as well get a lightweight AR as they recoil less and are lighter. *Rejected, unless you switch to a LW AR-15* Shotgun - longarms are preferable, but under stress is that person going to remember to rack the slide - and do it properly (short stroking would suck - and pros occasionally do it). Again a bit heavy (esp a 12 gauge) and way too much recoil for a non-gun person. *Rejected - too heavy, too much recoil, and short stroking issue* Handgun - often a favorite as they are small, easy to hide and lightest of the options. Revolvers are the simplest form of 'point and click'. Howwever the handgun is the most difficult of firearms to shoot well, especially under stress. I've seen newbies completey miss the target at 10' on a static range - how do you think they will do when the adrenaline is pumping and they have the shakes? *Rejected, unless the person is willing to train and practice regularly* PC Carbine - This seems to be the best option. It's a longarm so it's easier to aim (especially if you put a red-dot sight on it). They are semi-auto so it's point and click, and high-capacity is available. While not the most powerful, it's as good as a handgun, but with less noise and lower recoil than all the others. Options are available for compact storage (Kel-Tek Sub2K), or 'Politically Correct' traditional stock like the Ruger PC-9. For the laid out criteria (non 'gunner', female/old man), home and local defense, this seems like the best option if a Lightweight AR-15 is too expensive. |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 9:13:12 AM EDT
[#9]
I've seen too many semi auto pistols jam in the hands of a neophyte to trust them. They jam because the shooter limp wrists them. When you combine that w/ the fact that many women just can't rack the slide on them, a semi isn't a good gun for a non shooter IMO. Revolvers are easy to shoot. Reloading quickly is a different issue, but better 6 for sure than an unreliable gun. If not a revolver I'd say a pump shotgun (which is unfortunately easy to not cycle, or short stroke), or a carbine. An M1 is easy to shoot and light. |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 9:24:45 AM EDT
[#10]
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Posted: 9/5/2008 9:33:53 AM EDT
[#11]
Considering how ineffective those soldiers are, I'd be looking elsewhere for an answer. |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 9:40:53 AM EDT
[#12]
AK/SKS is best for something to leave at home. A small SKS, like a Norinco or similar, not a Yugo M59/66, because they are quite long and heavy for a rifle that only holds 10 rounds.
If they might take it with them, you really can't beat something like a Kel-Tec Sub 2000, because having a gun with you is the most important thing, i.e., a 9mm carbine in your hands is better than an AR15/AK47 in the safe/closet. |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 9:50:56 AM EDT
[#13]
Some semi auto guns are prone to limp wristing jams and some are not. All new shooters are prone to miss ALL six shots with double action revolver at more than a few feet. Make it a cheap revolver with a rough and heavy trigger pull and throw in some stress and the equation looks even worse. Bottom line revolvers are easy to shoot but six misses are no better than a jammed gun. Carbine is a better choice overall no doubt, but a concealable weapon is a no brainer if there is only one gun possible and you have to cover all scenarios. |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 9:56:52 AM EDT
[#14]
I'm thinking Beretta Storm 9mm carbine. So light can even be used with one hand, good capacity, not threatening looking, simple in operation, reversible controls, etc.
I'll have to admit I bought mine just kind of as a novelty plinker, but I put an Eotech on it with a quick disconnect LaRue mount and it really makes for a durable, accurate little platform.   |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 9:57:31 AM EDT
[#15]
What kind of mags are available? Any 30 rounders? |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 10:00:11 AM EDT
[#16]
I think twenty round, at least. All mine are fifteen. A more knowledgeable Beretta type might chime in at this point and tell us. |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 10:06:13 AM EDT
[#17]
imo, i wouldn't blame the tools for the users' incompetence. |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 10:07:13 AM EDT
[#18]
They are untrained for the most part. These hypothetical people would be untrained. |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 10:08:29 AM EDT
[#19]
Wanna Know why?
Thats why the shotgun is winning, its an idoit proof gun, point and shoot and do a lot of damage, scatter gun, you are gonna hit something. Low maintance or even no maintance. Idoit proof gun with big damage probabilities thats why shotgun is winning your poll! |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 10:09:19 AM EDT
[#20]
revolver |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 10:10:10 AM EDT
[#21]
Still it is probably to heavy to shoulder for many of the subject folks.... So now what? |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 10:10:46 AM EDT
[#22]
How much spread will a typical 18" shotgun loaded with '00 see at 10 foot distances? Have you patterned one? |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 10:14:57 AM EDT
[#23]
 The shotgun is winning because a bunch of hillbilly's who don't understand the concept of an 'untrained' shooters, nor have ever short stroked their shotgun when the rounds were going both ways. There is no firearm 'idiot proof' and manual operated firearms are more prone to 'idiots screwing them up' than semi-autos where all the person needs to know is how to pull the trigger once the weapon is loaded.
Why not? It's a classic example of a untrained shooter using that weapon system. The weight and recoil of the AK is working against the smaller shooters. |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 10:15:45 AM EDT
[#24]
understood. i'm just saying that just because a person has an ak doesn't mean that they have to wear a life preserver and hold it over their head to fire.  forest's other post made some pretty good points though. i can defintely see the merit in using a "pc carbine," especially an m1 carbine, or the kel-tec. |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 10:17:14 AM EDT
[#25]
that's a good point, i hadn't been thinking of it that way. i had in mind more of the spray-and-pray type shooters when you reffered to ineffective soldiers. |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 10:34:44 AM EDT
[#26]
This is a great video Big Bore did a couple of years ago, and posted it in the AR General Discussions forum.
It compares an inexperienced Female shooter trying a handgun, shotgun and AR, to see which would make a better 'home defense' gun for her. Big Bore's Untrained Female Shooter Experiment Considering weight/recoil you could substitute pistol cartridge carbine for an AR in the results. |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 10:36:11 AM EDT
[#27]
I usually go with shotgun but have voted PCC due to low recoil and relative ease of use.
BEFORE that person gets any weapon they will need basic weapons familiarity. Nothing is better than something you cannot use right and get it taken away from you and used against you. Wait before flame Just ask the home intruders that where shot by their own weapon because they left the safety own One will Never invade a home again  If the person can handle a shotgun well I would use it before a PCC but thats me and I have only been using a pump shotgun for 35 years Coures I get to choose between AR, SKS, Shotgun, (pump or auto) 10/22 and of course pistol for my PDW in the house |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 10:37:15 AM EDT
[#28]
I believe that a 9mm AR recoils more than a .223 AR.
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Posted: 9/5/2008 10:40:28 AM EDT
[#29]
Denpeds on the ammo used and the configurations. IMHO having used both, it's pretty comparable. |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 10:40:45 AM EDT
[#30]
that's a pretty compelling video. |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 10:41:47 AM EDT
[#31]
And not so much being specifically for the AR, but for low recoil shoulder weapons with optics. |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 10:42:38 AM EDT
[#32]
...with a mini-y comp brake on it. |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 10:42:51 AM EDT
[#33]
It may be a littlle more expensive than the ones you listed but I vote PS90 because of ease of use and ease of sighting is just superb all there is to it is load mag charge and fire and its fully ambidextrous. YMMV
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Posted: 9/5/2008 10:55:42 AM EDT
[#34]
Maybe you didn't see this above "Make it a 20 ga if family members are small stature" What are the subject folks? 2 year olds? My wife who is 4'11 on a good day, 115 on her period, can operate a 20 ga. So who is doing the shooting kids in diapers? Come on man! To heavy my ass, plus you can always hold it at the hip and just click away! |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 10:56:05 AM EDT
[#35]
for sure, although an ar would be my first choice (naturally  ). what do the beretta/kel-tec carbines generally run? are they that much cheaper than a very basic (but non-vulcan) ar? |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 10:56:21 AM EDT
[#36]
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Posted: 9/5/2008 10:57:08 AM EDT
[#37]
yup! |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 10:59:58 AM EDT
[#38]
Around here the Kel-Tecs run $300-$350 last time I checked. I had thought of getting one for the wife, but she ended up with a LW AR I built orginally a 'Retro' project for me; however, she ended up with it as he found it preferable to the M4 bareled carbine. |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 11:00:23 AM EDT
[#39]
No, no, .50 BMG pistol with an artillery-sized brake and a 20X scope !
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Posted: 9/5/2008 11:09:13 AM EDT
[#40]
hmm, well in that case, and assuming that they're reliable, they would seem like a pretty decent choice for the op's needs. |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 11:17:39 AM EDT
[#41]
Get the one with Glock magazines and it's a nice package. It can fold up for storage in the dresser drawer. If cost is the overridding issue, I will say to take a look at the Hi-Point carbine. Not the best ergonomically, and you'll be limited to 10 round magazines, but they always seem to go bang. Surprising for sure, but they do seem to be a low cost reliable option in 9mm. They run about half the cost of the Kel-Tec. |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 11:18:04 AM EDT
[#42]
Well the so called "Screnario asked PDW", when I think of that I think of someone that is backed into a corner or defending a small area i.e. home. Some people are talking about rilfes and long range weapons, when I think of the screnario I think of someone with no gun knowledge that is just protecting their life! So to answer your question I think they would be more then fine if the person was within 10 feet! |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 11:20:19 AM EDT
[#43]
I'm referring to the implication that the shotgun is going to have enough spread that 'you are gonna hit something', 'scatter gun', etc. It is not, the pattern will be very tight. You have to aim a shotgun as much as any other type of gun. Apologies if I misread your post. |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 11:23:25 AM EDT
[#44]
i voted shotgun.. supremely versatile...and when was the last time you needed to clean your pump action 12 guage?.................... dont worry ill wait......
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Posted: 9/5/2008 11:26:59 AM EDT
[#45]
You are right, I should have used a different word other then scattter gun, what I ment is the fact that according to the OP, an untrained shooter could pick up a shotgun point and shoot! I think for an untrained shooter, a shotgun is easy to operate, clean, load, and fire. Thats my opinion, and according to the poll, many others agree, just haven't posted anything to back it up! |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 11:33:15 AM EDT
[#46]
Fair enough. I'm of the opinion that anything which requires manual cycling is going to be very hard for an inexperienced shooter to do under duress. I also think that having to charge a weapon, manipulate a selector, etc is asking too much. I want something they can pick up and start firing with no more thinking required. To me a 4" S&W 686+ fits the bill. 7 shots of a respectable caliber. You could argue for something more like a SIG, but limp wristing is a concern as well in my opinion. Revolvers are in my mind the easiest gun for somebody who knows shit about guns to fire in a life or death situation. |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 11:39:58 AM EDT
[#47]
Thats fine, so we can agree to disagree! haha I agree something like a revolver is easy for an untrained shooter to use just pull the trigger till you run out of ammo, which depending on the model probably 6 rounds. With the revolver my one concern is the acc. of the shooter, I am thinking 15 yards max for an untrained shooter to hit the target, where as I think my point was I would put more money of them hitting a target at 15 yards with a shotgun. Like I said I guess we can agree to disagree! |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 11:40:22 AM EDT
[#48]
thats a good argument for a revolver.. but there is also a affect of a racking 12 guage thats scares off bad guys... i think a revolver or 12 guage are sufficient... however training on both is critical... |
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Posted: 9/5/2008 11:41:26 AM EDT
[#49]
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Posted: 9/5/2008 11:43:12 AM EDT
[#50]
I've seen partially trained people MISS with all rounds at half that distance when on the range. Add in adrenaline shakes - and all bets are off. I think some of you would be very suprised just how hard it is for an untrained person to hit a target with a handgun (especially a double action revolver) when under stress. |
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