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Posted: 9/5/2004 7:38:25 PM EDT
[#1]
Funny how the concept of subduing your enemy by killing him and destroying everything around him worked for centuries...but nowadays it's viewed as a failure. My vote is for unrelenting total war until our enemies are all taking extended dirt naps. |
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Posted: 9/5/2004 7:40:16 PM EDT
[#2]
Dave is wrong, if you are mad enough to really do it, unrestratined violnece DOES work.
Ask any Native American... |
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Posted: 9/5/2004 7:43:19 PM EDT
[#3]
Damn, they never take their eyes off the ball, do they???? 
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Posted: 9/5/2004 7:44:04 PM EDT
[#4]
All 70 million of them??? Fight THIS war the wrong way, and 70 million is what we'd have to kill. "Total war" is a concept that works for traditional warfare - nation v. nation in a single threatre of operations. THIS war is a special forces war. Small ops in faraway lands, 98% of which we never hear of. Use "total war" here, and you make the ENTIRE world population of Muslims our enemy. Then it doesn't end until EVERY Muslim is dead. (The pre-pubescants will be along to say "Hayell, yeah, kill 'em all" - which only serves to illustrate their naievete.) |
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Posted: 9/5/2004 7:46:36 PM EDT
[#5]
Countries like Syria and Iran exist today only because countries like us are too chicken to do what we really need to do. |
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Posted: 9/5/2004 7:47:10 PM EDT
[#6]
We never had to kill ALL the Native Americans did we? They are still around, are they not? |
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Posted: 9/5/2004 8:10:34 PM EDT
[#7]
Well, the kind of war we're fighing now is different from those of centuries past... The enemy is global, not confined to any state or territory. They can operate with or without the permission of the nations from which they base... They have no territory to conquer, no fixed position for us to attack or them to defend. We are fighting an ORGANIZATION, not a COUNTRY. Everywhere 'Total War' has worked, it has worked against nations -> groups of people with territory. However, whenever a nation attempted to subdue insurgency with 'Total War', they lost. The French lost in Vietnam.... The Russians in Afganhistan.... The Russians ARE losing in Chechnya... The technical term is '4th Generation War'... We cannot hope to win if we lose the ideological battle that is running in paralell to the bullets-and-bombs battle... If we alienate the innocent civillian population of the Middle East, it's over, no matter how many people we kill... Liberation can succeed 'Toatal War' can only fail... |
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Posted: 9/5/2004 8:13:39 PM EDT
[#8]
Armdliberal is exactly correct. In the end we might not need to kill them all - but we need to start killing enough of them, in enough quantities, with enough gusto, that they start thinking we're indeed going kill them all. Nukes on major islamic population centers is the way to go. There's no need for "intell", or high speed "operators" - just for big bombs and the balls to use them. We just keep on killing until they decide to quit messing with us. Dave-A is totally wrong. You don't win wars by being noble and decent. Wars are won by inflicting more pain than the enemy can bear. His "sensitive" war methods are only going to cost us more lives in the long run. I thought we learned this lesson with Japan... |
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Posted: 9/5/2004 8:14:05 PM EDT
[#9]
Which is topple their governments, not exterminate their populations... In order to SUCESSFULLY handle Syria and Iran, we have to fight in such a way that the MAJORITY of the civillian population doesn't keep fighting us after their government falls... It is a delecate situation, Iraq is evidence of that. Right now we are on a razor's edge between success or failure there. If we alienate the majority of the population thru 'Total War' we lose. If we fight the terrorists with precision tactics, and consideration for the surrounding civillian population AND THEIR RELIGEOUS & CULTURAL BELIEFS, then we can win. There is no other option. Period. Funny, I actually AGREE with garandman for once... 
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Posted: 9/5/2004 8:17:26 PM EDT
[#10]
They were conventional 'Nations'. They had land they controled, leaders, and such... They were NOT a terrorist insurgency (except in the movies)... Conventional all-out war worked there, it cannot work here... It's even more sensitive than the cold-war era conflicts -> All we had to worry about then was triggering a nuclear holocaust. Now we face the prospect of creating a perminant, indestructable enemy if we do not fight this war with professional precision and cold, steady, logical strategy... The moment we allow the casualties to become 'personal', and start acting like the enemey we are fighting, WE LOSE THE WAR! |
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Posted: 9/5/2004 8:25:58 PM EDT
[#11]
Japan was a 2nd generation war... It wasn't even a maneuver campaign, it was troops, in jungles, with small arms, air & arty support... Fixed fortifications, etc... Primative war accomidates primative tactics... This war demands COLD WAR tactics. We won that one, remember... We didn't 'Kill All the Russians'... In fact, we hardly killed any... If you did what you suggest, Mr 'libertarian', you would condemn us to eternal war. And I do mean eternal. What you fail to recognize is that it's not 'All Muslims' vs 'The West'. It's 'Al Queda' vs 'The West'. If you start nuking population centers, it WILL BECOME 'All Muslims' vs 'The West', and that means you just lost the war. The Russians lost the Chechen war when they razed Grozny. We would lose it under your plan. What we NEED to do, is (a) Destroy Al Queda bases wherever we find them, and (b) Topple the offending governments who created the problem, while KILLING AS FEW OF THEIR PEOPLE AS POSSIBLE. You see, the civillian population has to have a favorable-to-neutral view of the US for liberation to work, and if you use 'total war' or especially if you use WMD, you throw that away and turn it into a mindless blood feud like the Russians are fighting now... You cannot bomb an idea out of existance, you must discredit it and replace it with your own superior idea. And you cannot do this if your method of delivery makes the target hate your guts, instead of act like it because their government tells them to. Oh, and I will be fighting this thing, personally. I am glad our government does not agree with you all, as with their stated position there is actually a chance of victory.... With yours, there is only an ever excallating body count. |
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Posted: 9/5/2004 8:30:29 PM EDT
[#12]
1. I question their indestructibility. 2. They already hate us. They already harbor and aid their terrorist buddies. They already teach their kids to hate us. Didn't you see them pouring out into the streets when the towers went down - celebrating, dancing, doing their stupid little screams of joy??? 3. I don't care if they like us or not. All I care is that they don't hurt our people anymore. Your way is to try to convince them to just be our friends. My way is to convince them that if they do mess with us, we'll kill them, and everyone around them. Which way did Reagan see it? Which way did Chamberlain see it? |
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Posted: 9/5/2004 8:36:11 PM EDT
[#13]
Nuke IT from orbit, it's the only way to be sure.
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Posted: 9/5/2004 8:36:30 PM EDT
[#14]
I was thinking Chamberlin myself. |
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Posted: 9/5/2004 8:38:16 PM EDT
[#15]
I expect all sorts of people to crawl out of the woodwork to explain how that just won't work nowadays, people are so differnet you see, all sorts of excuses. I guess us few holdouts haven't gotten the memoes on being more sensitive to our enemies, and respecting their feelings and such... |
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Posted: 9/5/2004 8:38:48 PM EDT
[#16]
Not only does it sometimes work, biut it always works. As long as you have the will. |
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Posted: 9/5/2004 8:40:28 PM EDT
[#17]
1. I'm not sure that you can't bomb an idea out of existance. I say we give it a shot! 2. So the reason that no muslims come out and comdemn these terrorist attacks is because they are just "pretending" to hate us?? hmmmmmm, riiiiiiiiiiiiight! 3. If your logic sucks, and you're losing the argument, use bigger font! |
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Posted: 9/5/2004 8:41:21 PM EDT
[#18]
You are not talking total war, you seem to think that there woudl be some left to be angry with us, I am talking total, complete war. Sure, you will have very sane, valid arguments against it, my only argument is, it will work in the end. |
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Posted: 9/5/2004 8:51:10 PM EDT
[#19]
you know Israel keeps taking out terroists left and right and they keep getting hit with suicide bombers. Its like gang war I hit you, you hit m,e I hit you agien, etc etc.
toasting a muslim city wont work you think were getting attacked know you havent seen nothing yet. I agree with Dave_A in this case its a spec ops/liberation war not a massive nuke em all let god sort em out deal. just massible slaughtering people only serves to convert more people agienst you. |
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Posted: 9/5/2004 8:52:13 PM EDT
[#20]
Hoppy  8420
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Posted: 9/5/2004 8:55:32 PM EDT
[#21]
I guess we have fundamental differences on what it means to be Muslim.
Go travel to any predominently Muslim country in the ME. When you get there, just walk around alone for a couple of days. If you make it home in anything other than a bodybag, I will admit I'm wrong about them. Sucks for you if I'm not, though. Feeling lucky? |
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Posted: 9/5/2004 8:58:32 PM EDT
[#22]
Since we're into bulleted lists: 1) I am not willing to become a terrorist just to defeat terrorisim. Unlike you, I will actually be fighting this war. 2) The reason is that this is all a manufactured campaign by the Arab governments to keep their radicals occupied elseware. If they're killing themselves trying to kill us, they can't start a revolution back home. 3) If you have no logic, and you are merely shouting down your opponent with no evidence to back up your position, only hate, do not criticaize my logic |
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Posted: 9/5/2004 8:59:16 PM EDT
[#23]
You can't bomb an idea out of existence? What do you propose, that we try and educate them and show them how great America and Americans are?
Get a fucking grip! The ONLY way to fix this "war of ideologies" is to ANNIHILATE the enemy and start over. It will take no less than 100 years to win this war by playing nice. About eight years ago I was listening to a radio show where the two gentlemen, libertarians in fact, advocated picking one country in the middle east and bombing the living shit out of it. Killing everyone and everything within the borders and salting the earth. More and more I see this as a viable option. If the savages don't heed the message, then you repeat it with the next country. Of course this is a modification to what hielo proposed, but in essence it's the same thing. Give them a warning, if they don't heed it we proceed with teaching them a lesson. If they don't learn, we repeat. All this bullshit about we can't stoop to their level sickens me. How the fuck do you win a war of this magnitude without doing what is necessary in WAR - intense barbaric unrelenting violence. We bombed the Japanese in WWII and killed 10,000 civilians in one night at times. They vowed never to surrender, it wasn't in their code of ethics to "give up", etc. We broke the will of that enemy, and you had better believe it was strong as steel and they would continued fighting had we not killed a quarter million of them in the span of a week. |
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Posted: 9/5/2004 9:00:31 PM EDT
[#24]
Worked REAL well for RUSSIA, right? 'cause they allready DID it, and failed... Chased out of Afganhistan by ARABS... Yeah, I really want to see the US Army routed by a bunch of 3rd world misfits because we lost the support of the civillian population by being a bunch of savages ourselves... NOT! |
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Posted: 9/5/2004 9:01:57 PM EDT
[#25]
I'm sure there Germans in Dresden that didn't hate us. I would bet that there were some Japanese in Hiroshima that also didn't hate us. So what's your point? I really don't care whether they hate us or not.
We didn't start this thing. They did. And about your Israeli analogy - it's wrong, because Israel does a tit for tat routine. If they had gone to war against these cockroaches, then it would've been over long ago. |
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Posted: 9/5/2004 9:03:00 PM EDT
[#26]
Kill 'Em All
is my favorite Metallica album. |
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Posted: 9/5/2004 9:07:35 PM EDT
[#27]
I'll say it again:
I guess we have fundamental differences on what it means to be Muslim. Go travel to any predominently Muslim country in the ME. When you get there, just walk around alone for a couple of days. If you make it home in anything other than a bodybag, I will admit I'm wrong about them. Sucks for you if I'm not, though. Feeling lucky? |
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Posted: 9/5/2004 9:10:59 PM EDT
[#28]
"Dust off and Nuke'm from Orbit" is a great line from a movie or a book, I forget.
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Posted: 9/5/2004 9:16:22 PM EDT
[#29]
Ok, let us assume that we could kill all the muslims on the planet. How many of the "kill them all" crowd honestly believes that no one else will try to stop us? We would have to kill not only every single muslim, but large segments of the populations of the countries who try to stop us. The rest of the world will not stand by and watch us kill millions upon millions of people.
Hoppy  8420
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Posted: 9/5/2004 9:17:37 PM EDT
[#30]
1) Do so all you want. They are not a nation. They do not have to wait 20 years to grow a new generation of soldiers - they can just convert more to their cause, from any nation, anywhere in the world. You can never kill them all and expect to win, there will allways be more. The only way to victory is to discredit the cause. Once again, we did win the Cold War by killing massive numbers of Communists. We simply proved that our system was better than theirs. 2) They do exactly what their government teaches them to. Brainwashing thru total media control is a very powerful tool, especially in a society that has never tasted freedom. We think independantly because we were raised to. We choose consciously because our society encourages it. They do neither because to do so is to face prison/torture/death. They are as 'guilty' for the crimes of Al Queda as the civillain population of Germany was for the crimes of Hitler -> not one bit. 3) My way is to allow them to chose freedom. I, like President Bush, am confident that they will. Everyone else we have liberated from an opressive government has done so. Reagan saw it my way, and did it my way. He proved that Capitalisim can defeat the Communisim without blasting the USSR off the face of the earth & destroying our society in the process. Chamberlain refused to fight. That is an invalid analogy, and you are distorting history to suit your emotiaonally charged but logically invalid argument. Nowhere have I said we should not fight. Quite the contrary, I am advocating a much broader, longer, and harder campaign than 'Why don't you push the button we'd be better off dead'. I am advocating the liberation of ~500 million people from tyrannical governments who have manufactured the terror problem to keep themselves in power... My philosophy is simple: You throw your national garbage at our guns to avoid a revolution? We send that revolution to your palace doorstep, express delivery by US Army! I do not blame the civillian population for the crimes of their government, and look forward to the day when we can sell Budweiser beer & Nike sportswear to 500 million new customers, because we liberated them instead of blowing them to bits... I believe in the power of freedom. It has transformed far more fanatical societies, it will transform this one. P.S. If the Japs fought wars like the Arabs do, we would not have needed to nuke them, and would not have done so. The point of WWII was to wipe out the Japanese government, not to kill as many Japs as possible in some bloodthirsty quest for revenge... Knocking over Arab governments doesn't require massive destruction. Which is fortunate, beacuse the whole point is that they will adopt our system of government once we're done - something that will not happen if we kill indiscriminately |
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Posted: 9/5/2004 9:20:31 PM EDT
[#31]
ALIENS. |
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Posted: 9/5/2004 9:22:44 PM EDT
[#32]
I think I understand what you are basically saying Dave. We can't kill them all. We have to go after them by using intelligence wisely and with enough firepower to get the job done. It's going to take a long, long time.
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Posted: 9/5/2004 9:23:27 PM EDT
[#33]
I have to say I can see Dave_A's point, HOWEVER, it took a major defeat of Japan to replace their strong ideologies. It was accomplished by the annihilation of two cities (taking it to their population) and forcing their leader to publically admiting that he wasn't a deity.
The Jap's followed their leader in a cult-like fashon. He had to be defeated through the defeat of the population. Russia hasn't destroyed enough and/or the right people or organizations to accomplish this. Thats why their still fighting in their schools. The terrorists are a more subtle organization but they have their leaders, defined followers and supporters. They have to be hit hard and fast with none of this modern PC crap to get in the way. |
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Posted: 9/5/2004 9:23:43 PM EDT
[#34]
They aren't already? It sure seems that they are, what with all the dancing in the streets on September 11, 2001. |
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Posted: 9/5/2004 9:26:06 PM EDT
[#35]
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Posted: 9/5/2004 9:28:14 PM EDT
[#36]
tagged.
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Posted: 9/5/2004 9:30:01 PM EDT
[#37]
So who's the first volunteer to fly to the ME and put their/my theory to the test?
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Posted: 9/5/2004 9:33:46 PM EDT
[#38]
Hoppy  8420
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Posted: 9/5/2004 9:35:46 PM EDT
[#39]
...Why don't we invade China while we're at it? |
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Posted: 9/5/2004 9:36:35 PM EDT
[#40]
Correct, and I fully support the Israeli method... They target terrorists with precision, and minimize collateral damage... They are hit continually, yet when they retaliate it is allways against the terrorists themselves. Israel has the weapons to kill every last Palistinain, but they don't. They fight like a civilized nation, and it will eventually they will win. In their case, once the Palestinains are living free of Israeli ocupation, with the Israelis safe behind their (heavily fortified) security fence, the Palis will see that Yassr Arafat and Hamas are the sources of their torment, not Israel. When Israel is out of their lives, the Palestinains blinders will come off, and it will all come home to roost for Yassr and his goons. The people will see that the 'Emperor is Naked', and rip him to shreds in the street. In our case, we cannot withdraw behind fortifications, as Al Queda is not fighting us over land. We must cut them off at the root, by overthrowing the regimes that create the conditions which allow AQ to prosper & thrive. It is about agressive, near imperialsitic, but precise & limited war. It si NOT about body count, about killing, but about victory achieved in as clean a manner as possible. It's about guys like me, who join the Army seeing a sense of nobility in 'the job' still being able to look themselves in the mirror after we take down Assad's Baath Party in Syria or the Supreme Council in Iran, because we liberated a nation from tyrrany instead of sacking it like a bunch of untrained unprofessional savages, |
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Posted: 9/5/2004 9:39:40 PM EDT
[#41]
Given enough time, I'm sure we'll be at war with them too. Or maybe we should apologize for being American and say we're sorry for hurting their feelings. |
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Posted: 9/5/2004 9:44:21 PM EDT
[#42]
Can anyone point out an example from history in which genocide on a scale anywhere near approaching 70 million was successful?
Hoppy 8420
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Posted: 9/5/2004 9:44:59 PM EDT
[#43]
Or maybe we should attack our enemies and not people that "got slanted eyes like 'em!" There's a point where you're defending yourself... and then there's a point where you make the KKK PROUD. |
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Posted: 9/5/2004 9:46:25 PM EDT
[#44]
Red China. You lose. |
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Posted: 9/5/2004 9:47:02 PM EDT
[#45]
LarryG, don't be silly. Dave-A has already informed us that they were just "pretending" when they were doing all that celebrating.
Dave, first of all, you have no idea what I do for a living. So lay off the "holier than thou". Second, I'll agree with you on one thing - the power of freedom. In fact I believe in a much more limited government than you do, if I understand your posts correctly. My way - The role of the federal government is to protect it's citizens from attack by other nations, and .... really ... not a whole lot else. Your way - The role of the federal government is to run around the world trying to get people to like us, and manipulating their internal affairs in such a way that we think is best. In order to do that, you're going to take my money, and use it to force a bunch of our guys over to third world hellholes, so that they can institute "regime change". Your way (meddling in other people's business) is what got these people pissed off with us in the first place! I can't think of many places at all where this plan has worked out to our benefit. I'm not saying it couldn't concievably work. I'm just saying that it's a stretch to think that the same government that can't figure out (pick your pet domestic issues with the feds), can suddenly figure out how to topple a foriegn government and replace it with American style "democracy". Get real! Oh by the way, which way gives us more feedom, mr. freedomlover? |
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Posted: 9/5/2004 9:48:28 PM EDT
[#46]
You sooo have issues...... |
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Posted: 9/5/2004 9:49:49 PM EDT
[#47]
There will allways be more. You can never get every last one of them, and unlike a nation-state that must grow it's members & soldiers the old fashioned way (by raising families), we are fighting an enemy that can create new soldiers with words. Let's say you missed 5 of them in your 'total war'... Let's say those 5 convert 5 more per survivor - it can happen, we still have Nazis after their defeat in a 'total war' - Well, now you've got a 9/11 stized strike force, plus 1 extra team. There will allways be enough left to be a problem, so what we have to do is make it so no one wants to be converted. You cannot do that thru fear, you must give them something better to believe in. Something that will make them not WANT to cvnvert... Only nationalistic democratic capitalisim (we seem to call it 'neoconservatisim' back here in the USA today) can fill that role, and it is America's job to spread this philosophy in the world today... Has been since 1914. We are remarkably good at it, we have dfeated our greatest enemies with it, and the key to final victory was not the body count, but what happened AFTER the enemy govt fell. Total war failed in WWI, and produced WWII. Regardless of methods, the key to our post-WWII success was that we reformed the governments of our former enemies & rebuilt their countries. Not that we scared them shitless with some massive show of force.... |
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Posted: 9/5/2004 9:52:22 PM EDT
[#48]
Anyone that wants to exterminate a race or even try to has issues. |
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Posted: 9/5/2004 9:54:34 PM EDT
[#49]
Anyone who thinks a religion is a race is an idiot. You lose this one. |
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Posted: 9/5/2004 9:58:32 PM EDT
[#50]
Last time I checked, Syria wasn't a religion, but a country with a particular race you don't care for too much. You lose this one for having selective memory. |
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