[ARCHIVED THREAD] - SIG “ The P320. It ends today.” (Page 95 of 142)
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Quoted: Didnt they they also show a close up slo mo video of a guy on the range holstering a gun with his finger still in the trigger guard? Claiming it was a random video of a "professional" screwing up? The claim was it isnt the p320 its the shooter. Ive been shooting pistols a lot of years. Been around a lot of pistol shooters. I have never, not once seen or heard of someone doing that. Not even a newb. |
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Quoted: Didnt they they also show a close up slo mo video of a guy on the range holstering a gun with his finger still in the trigger guard? Claiming it was a random video of a "professional" screwing up? The claim was it isnt the p320 its the shooter. Ive been shooting pistols a lot of years. Been around a lot of pistol shooters. I have never, not once seen or heard of someone doing that. Not even a newb. I've seen slow mo of a shooter reholstering with his finger straight and the gun going off as his hand was leaving the pistol with no trigger finger problems, but I've not seen one with someone's finger in the trigger. |
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Quoted: This SIG situation reads like NASA & Challenger disaster. SIG being NASA, of course. Even if a “freak mishap” occurs 0.01% when conditions are perfect for failure & unintended discharge, how many millions of M17/18s are in the wild? It may have been happening more often than we think. Before a few months ago, any inadvertent discharge was assumed to be shooter error. Now, the first question is "what kind of gun is that?" |
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Quoted: New season: Cohen goes somewhere else and starts FIFY Ben chimes in like you knew he would.  Sig responds to the internet |
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Quoted: The P320 is now national news, and not just on GunTube channels: https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Gwm5SaeWwAA3kIz?format=jpg&name=large Kirkland security forces were carrying rifles this morning, and the guard said he thought it was USAF wide. Certainly thinking about switching my p320 out. One of the early ones. If nothing else just don't trust how sigs responses have been going for a while. I'd make a better pr guy than whoever they have, and I'd make a shitty pr guy. |
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Quoted: I've seen slow mo of a shooter reholstering with his finger straight and the gun going off as his hand was leaving the pistol with no trigger finger problems, but I've not seen one with someone's finger in the trigger. Quoted: Quoted: Didnt they they also show a close up slo mo video of a guy on the range holstering a gun with his finger still in the trigger guard? Claiming it was a random video of a "professional" screwing up? The claim was it isnt the p320 its the shooter. Ive been shooting pistols a lot of years. Been around a lot of pistol shooters. I have never, not once seen or heard of someone doing that. Not even a newb. I've seen slow mo of a shooter reholstering with his finger straight and the gun going off as his hand was leaving the pistol with no trigger finger problems, but I've not seen one with someone's finger in the trigger. Wait - he was reholstering a loaded gun with his finger near the trigger? Come on, man! You KNOW that guns shouldn't be carried with one in the chamber! To carry around a LOADED gun, in a holster, all willy nilly, is basically negligence. Not to mention having your finger within inches of the trigger! No gun should be expected to be treated like that and NOT go off. Clearly the shooter's fault. Yes, this is sarcasm. But it's not far off from what the sig defender's arguments sound like, at this point. It's basically all they have left. |
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Quoted: It may have been happening more often than we think. Before a few months ago, any inadvertent discharge was assumed to be shooter error. Now, the first question is "what kind of gun is that?" Quoted: Quoted: This SIG situation reads like NASA & Challenger disaster. SIG being NASA, of course. Even if a “freak mishap” occurs 0.01% when conditions are perfect for failure & unintended discharge, how many millions of M17/18s are in the wild? It may have been happening more often than we think. Before a few months ago, any inadvertent discharge was assumed to be shooter error. Now, the first question is "what kind of gun is that?" For a long time I always thought shooter error, but there's certainly a perception of it being 320 variant more than any other model. I recall there being something similar talked about with Glocks when they became popular, but that was before I was into guns Was that because of trigger discipline being, uh, different in a world of heavy triggers? |
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Quoted: It was in their video they did defending the gun a few months ago after the Achilles Heel incident. Goober Actual said he needed to see a 4K HD video of one going off in a holster with the shooters hands not touching it, folded in their chest even, before he'd believe there was a problem with the gun. Quoted: Quoted: Anyone have an original reference for this? I keep seeing "criss cross applesauce" but I have no idea where it came from other than some general sense it emerged from the Gerbus group. Then they made a video on how terrible the M9 was, it was so laughable that they should have been wearing clown makeup. |
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Quoted: Anyone have an original reference for this? I keep seeing "criss cross applesauce" but I have no idea where it came from other than some general sense it emerged from the Gerbus group. Quoted: Quoted: Maybe they'll post that they will ONLY be allowing P320s at their training classes. As well as demonstrated knowledge transfer reception of the criss-cross-applesauce technique. Anyone have an original reference for this? I keep seeing "criss cross applesauce" but I have no idea where it came from other than some general sense it emerged from the Gerbus group. Early in SIG's It Ends Today debacle, they paid for GBRS to make a pro-320 video - right after a 320 had gone off on someone else's range - the "Is that a fucking 320?" video. So GBRS makes a video praising the 320, and said all the UDs are really just NDs, and they won't believe it until they see a video w/ the victim's arms "criss-cross applesauce", ie, not touching the gun in any way. They took their silver, and they have blood on their hands now.  Sig Sauer P320 Concerns and Jumping to Conclusions |
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Quoted: It may have been happening more often than we think. Before a few months ago, any inadvertent discharge was assumed to be shooter error. Now, the first question is "what kind of gun is that?" Quoted: Quoted: This SIG situation reads like NASA & Challenger disaster. SIG being NASA, of course. Even if a “freak mishap” occurs 0.01% when conditions are perfect for failure & unintended discharge, how many millions of M17/18s are in the wild? It may have been happening more often than we think. Before a few months ago, any inadvertent discharge was assumed to be shooter error. Now, the first question is "what kind of gun is that?" This too. I have a friend who does a lot of competition and training. He was a huge fan of the P320 when they came out and a few years ago, had a "surprise" discharge as he was moving/transitioning between targets at a shoot. He has very good trigger discipline and NEVER fails to index his finger, but at the time figured he must have made the mistake and humbly accepted his DQ for the ND. Now he's wondering if he actually had an ND or not. He got rid of his 320s, largely due to this issue. He's not the type to say, "there's no way *I* could have made that mistake" but the fact that he might not have, and he'll never know for sure, really bugs him. |
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Quoted: This too. I have a friend who does a lot of competition and training. He was a huge fan of the P320 when they came out and a few years ago, had a "surprise" discharge as he was moving/transitioning between targets at a shoot. He has very good trigger discipline and NEVER fails to index his finger, but at the time figured he must have made the mistake and humbly accepted his DQ for the ND. Now he's wondering if he actually had an ND or not. He got rid of his 320s, largely due to this issue. He's not the type to say, "there's no way *I* could have made that mistake" but the fact that he might not have, and he'll never know for sure, really bugs him. I think there may a more than a few 320 owners who are second guessing that "Well I guess I must had my finger on the trigger, cuz guns don't just go off" moment from a few years ago. |
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Quoted: If nothing else just don't trust how sigs responses have been going for a while. I'd make a better pr guy than whoever they have, and I'd make a shitty pr guy. This is what’s really bothered me about all of this. This has been around for years and sigs response through it all has never sat right with me. |
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Quoted: For a long time I always thought shooter error, but there's certainly a perception of it being 320 variant more than any other model. I recall there being something similar talked about with Glocks when they became popular, but that was before I was into guns Was that because of trigger discipline being, uh, different in a world of heavy triggers? Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: This SIG situation reads like NASA & Challenger disaster. SIG being NASA, of course. Even if a “freak mishap” occurs 0.01% when conditions are perfect for failure & unintended discharge, how many millions of M17/18s are in the wild? It may have been happening more often than we think. Before a few months ago, any inadvertent discharge was assumed to be shooter error. Now, the first question is "what kind of gun is that?" For a long time I always thought shooter error, but there's certainly a perception of it being 320 variant more than any other model. I recall there being something similar talked about with Glocks when they became popular, but that was before I was into guns Was that because of trigger discipline being, uh, different in a world of heavy triggers? That's a big part of it. Glocks were introduced to a world that only knew DA revolvers, DA/SA autos, and SAO autos with manual safeties. The idea of carrying a chambered and cocked pistol with a ~5 pound trigger and no safety was completely new to the industry. Training and equipment reflected that. Most holsters were nylon or leather, and as discussed in one of these threads, some agencies actually taught LEOs with DA guns to stage the trigger on the draw. The P320 was introduced to a world where striker fired pistols (and good hard shell holsters) were an industry standard established for decades. It's not the same situation at all. |
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Quoted: I'll take a little credit for this. I talked to Ken Campbell yesterday morning about their policy on the P320 or its variants. Ken told me there was a ban, with few exceptions, such as, that is their agency issued firearm, and in that case, they would discourage its use. I mentioned to him, that we were discussing banning P320's and all its variants from our ranges, and that our public firearms training center next to our ranges already had an outright ban as of June 2025. Edit: Not A Total Ban: Same Policy As Yesterday. Yesterday, it was decided we were going to ban them from our ranges and range classroom, and all of our employees will be told to not bring any P320 onto Town property, and that we discourage its use or carry when off duty. Agencies and organizations that use our ranges will also be notified. We don't get many Cops visiting our building who carry P320's or its variants, but if that P320 is their agency issued pistol, we won't refuse them access to our building, but we will discourage them from carrying their P320 into our building. Jay Quoted: I talked to Ken Campbell yesterday morning about their policy on the P320 or its variants. Ken told me there was a ban, with few exceptions, such as, that is their agency issued firearm, and in that case, they would discourage its use. I mentioned to him, that we were discussing banning P320's and all its variants from our ranges, and that our public firearms training center next to our ranges already had an outright ban as of June 2025. Edit: Not A Total Ban: Same Policy As Yesterday. Yesterday, it was decided we were going to ban them from our ranges and range classroom, and all of our employees will be told to not bring any P320 onto Town property, and that we discourage its use or carry when off duty. Agencies and organizations that use our ranges will also be notified. We don't get many Cops visiting our building who carry P320's or its variants, but if that P320 is their agency issued pistol, we won't refuse them access to our building, but we will discourage them from carrying their P320 into our building. Jay Your facility so of course you're the one who gets to decide your rules. My only suggestion, if P320's are allowed for those limited to such as their duty required pistol, is that for the duration of usage on-range 1) A P320 must be declared combined with statement stating duty-required pistol. 2) NO chambered rounds allowed in the firearm EXCEPT when out of holster and engaging in live-fire. Holstered loaded P320's are prohibited. If it's a department gun - too bad, you should carry it unchambered while on-duty as well then, until you get a safer gun. |
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Quoted: ... They took their silver, and they have blood on their hands now.  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqG8RfiXkN0That's how I read it. That's how I read right at the time. Guns going off on their own, and more serious injuries were only a matter of time. My respect for a few "experts" and "established gunsmiths" has gone to full-out negative disdain. GunJesus figured it out a long time ago. He had to play the politics, but even with that, he knew and was one of the few established YouTube-$$-teet-suckers, to point out something was wrong. Meanwhile, a whole lot of the other ones, didn't say shit. Because they knew where their bread was buttered, and that was what mattered to them. Like those assclowns. |
ANOTHER 320 GD thread.  https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/2806029_The-Official-SIG-P320-video-thread.html |
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Quoted: For a long time I always thought shooter error, but there's certainly a perception of it being 320 variant more than any other model. I recall there being something similar talked about with Glocks when they became popular, but that was before I was into guns Was that because of trigger discipline being, uh, different in a world of heavy triggers? yes |
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Quoted: It may have been happening more often than we think. Before a few months ago, any inadvertent discharge was assumed to be shooter error. Now, the first question is "what kind of gun is that?" Stoeger made that point in a video today. The bias has been "guns do not just go off by themselves" because, well, for most of our existence we have had guns that in fact do not just go off by themselves. But here we appear to have one that actually does, running counter to our accepted dogma. The number of occasions where we've seen shit that shouldn't make a gun go off fire a P320 is breaking down the resistance to the idea. And now apparently putting a holstered pistol on a desk can set one off? At a certain point you can't claim it's just user error. |
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Quoted: Early in SIG's It Ends Today debacle, they paid for GBRS to make a pro-320 video - right after a 320 had gone off on someone else's range - the "Is that a fucking 320?" video. So GBRS makes a video praising the 320, and said all the UDs are really just NDs, and they won't believe it until they see a video w/ the victim's arms "criss-cross applesauce", ie, not touching the gun in any way. They took their silver, and they have blood on their hands now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqG8RfiXkN0Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Maybe they'll post that they will ONLY be allowing P320s at their training classes. As well as demonstrated knowledge transfer reception of the criss-cross-applesauce technique. Anyone have an original reference for this? I keep seeing "criss cross applesauce" but I have no idea where it came from other than some general sense it emerged from the Gerbus group. Early in SIG's It Ends Today debacle, they paid for GBRS to make a pro-320 video - right after a 320 had gone off on someone else's range - the "Is that a fucking 320?" video. So GBRS makes a video praising the 320, and said all the UDs are really just NDs, and they won't believe it until they see a video w/ the victim's arms "criss-cross applesauce", ie, not touching the gun in any way. They took their silver, and they have blood on their hands now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqG8RfiXkN0GooBeRS were always cringey |
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Quoted: Early in SIG's It Ends Today debacle, they paid for GBRS to make a pro-320 video - right after a 320 had gone off on someone else's range - the "Is that a fucking 320?" video. So GBRS makes a video praising the 320, and said all the UDs are really just NDs, and they won't believe it until they see a video w/ the victim's arms "criss-cross applesauce", ie, not touching the gun in any way. They took their silver, and they have blood on their hands now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqG8RfiXkN0Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Maybe they'll post that they will ONLY be allowing P320s at their training classes. As well as demonstrated knowledge transfer reception of the criss-cross-applesauce technique. Anyone have an original reference for this? I keep seeing "criss cross applesauce" but I have no idea where it came from other than some general sense it emerged from the Gerbus group. Early in SIG's It Ends Today debacle, they paid for GBRS to make a pro-320 video - right after a 320 had gone off on someone else's range - the "Is that a fucking 320?" video. So GBRS makes a video praising the 320, and said all the UDs are really just NDs, and they won't believe it until they see a video w/ the victim's arms "criss-cross applesauce", ie, not touching the gun in any way. They took their silver, and they have blood on their hands now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DqG8RfiXkN0They havent really shown themselves to be about anything but themselves and their wallets. |
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I don't like Glocks. However, have seen so many Glocks in action, being dropped, kicked, slammed, flipped airborne and skipped off the ground while flipping like a vertical boomerang, stepped on, dirty, abused etc. NEVER discharging unintentionally. I was skeptical about the P320, thought maybe a witch hunt by competitors but now I am convinced there is an true issue with the gun. |
| I have a 320 that I don't shoot much anymore. First thing I did was change the trigger out to an Agency Arms Glock style trigger. I have to wonder if Sig changed the trigger and springs out to a Glock style trigger would that prevent the sort of issues they're having. |
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Quoted: I have a 320 that I don't shoot much anymore. First thing I did was change the trigger out to an Agency Arms Glock style trigger. I have to wonder if Sig changed the trigger and springs out to a Glock style trigger would that prevent the sort of issues they're having. |
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Quoted: That's how I read it. That's how I read right at the time. Guns going off on their own, and more serious injuries were only a matter of time. My respect for a few "experts" and "established gunsmiths" has gone to full-out negative disdain. GunJesus figured it out a long time ago. He had to play the politics, but even with that, he knew and was one of the few established YouTube-$$-teet-suckers, to point out something was wrong. Meanwhile, a whole lot of the other ones, didn't say shit. Because they knew where their bread was buttered, and that was what mattered to them. Like those assclowns. They paused comments for that video now. Probably for the best. I was about to make a horribly mediocre apple sauce joke. |
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Quoted: I have a 320 that I don't shoot much anymore. First thing I did was change the trigger out to an Agency Arms Glock style trigger. I have to wonder if Sig changed the trigger and springs out to a Glock style trigger would that prevent the sort of issues they're having. Heavier springs could take care of some of the issues there have been. If the tests are accurate in regards to striker blocks not functioning then that’s a different problem requiring a different solution. |
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Quoted: I have a 320 that I don't shoot much anymore. First thing I did was change the trigger out to an Agency Arms Glock style trigger. I have to wonder if Sig changed the trigger and springs out to a Glock style trigger would that prevent the sort of issues they're having. The irony is if they had produced the 320 with a trigger safety, like literally every other striker fired pistol has (except the 365, of course), the drop safety issue may never have been discovered...and since there is good evidence that these discharges are related to the upgrade... |
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Quoted: That's a big part of it. Glocks were introduced to a world that only knew DA revolvers, DA/SA autos, and SAO autos with manual safeties. The idea of carrying a chambered and cocked pistol with a ~5 pound trigger and no safety was completely new to the industry. Training and equipment reflected that. Most holsters were nylon or leather, and as discussed in one of these threads, some agencies actually taught LEOs with DA guns to stage the trigger on the draw. The P320 was introduced to a world where striker fired pistols (and good hard shell holsters) were an industry standard established for decades. It's not the same situation at all. |
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Quoted: Stoeger made that point in a video today. The bias has been "guns do not just go off by themselves" because, well, for most of our existence we have had guns that in fact do not just go off by themselves. But here we appear to have one that actually does, running counter to our accepted dogma. The number of occasions where we've seen shit that shouldn't make a gun go off fire a P320 is breaking down the resistance to the idea. And now apparently putting a holstered pistol on a desk can set one off? At a certain point you can't claim it's just user error. Quoted: Quoted: It may have been happening more often than we think. Before a few months ago, any inadvertent discharge was assumed to be shooter error. Now, the first question is "what kind of gun is that?" Stoeger made that point in a video today. The bias has been "guns do not just go off by themselves" because, well, for most of our existence we have had guns that in fact do not just go off by themselves. But here we appear to have one that actually does, running counter to our accepted dogma. The number of occasions where we've seen shit that shouldn't make a gun go off fire a P320 is breaking down the resistance to the idea. And now apparently putting a holstered pistol on a desk can set one off? At a certain point you can't claim it's just user error. |
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Quoted: Nothing from Sig beyond that post yesterday supporting the families at Warren. Wonder what they'll say next? If Sig has learned anything from the last five months, it should be that they need to shut the hell up. I'd expect a lot of this to progress slowly. The USAF Public Affairs people haven't released the Airman's name, nor have they released any details of what happened. |
| Saw the same thing for Scott Jedlinski's classes (Modern Samurai). |
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This email was just sent out by a local range in New Mexico https://www.bizzflo.com/business/marketing/newsletterweb?id=20817&customerId=5650421&new=1 NEW POLICY Dear Legacy Ranch Customers, At Legacy Ranch, your safety is—and always has been—our highest priority. We’re writing to inform you of an important policy change regarding the use of the SIG Sauer P320 at our facility.Effective immediately, Legacy Ranch will no longer allow the use of the SIG Sauer P320/M17/M18 and all variants on our premises, whether you personally own it or it is your agency issued duty pistol. Why We’re Making This Decision While the P320 has been a popular firearm among civilian and professional shooters, we cannot ignore the mounting safety concerns surrounding its design and performance—even after SIG Sauer’s Voluntary Upgrade Program. Despite the internal component updates intended to reduce unintentional discharges, the core design of the P320's Fire Control Unit (FCU) continues to draw scrutiny. •A tragic accidental discharge at Warren Air Force Base recently resulted in the death of an airman, further raising concerns about the platform's reliability. •Multiple law enforcement agencies across the U.S.—at both the state and federal level—have taken the step of removing the P320 from service, citing similar safety risks. •Numerous reputable shooting ranges nationwide have also banned the P320, pending further action and transparency from SIG Sauer. At Legacy Ranch, we believe no amount of popularity or brand recognition can outweigh the responsibility we have to protect every individual who steps onto our range. While many firearms can pose risks if misused, the risk profile of the P320, even under responsible handling, has proven to be exceptional and unacceptable to us. Our Commitment to You This decision was not made lightly, but it was made with clarity. Our mission is to offer an environment where safety, education, and trust are always at the forefront. We remain committed to monitoring industry developments, manufacturer guidance, and legal outcomes—and will adjust our policy only if and when sufficient corrective action is taken and independently validated. We appreciate your understanding and continued support. If you have questions about this policy or need help finding alternative options for training or competition, our team is more than happy to assist. |
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Quoted: Wonder how many regular Joes were hurt - or worse - by their 320 years ago and no one believed them. Every day people that don't have the pull/viability of LEOs and Mil. -"It just went off I swear!!!" -"Yea right pal." That would have been my reaction not too long ago. Long history of even crappy guns that don't just go off. If they'd been honest and upfront, that'd be one thing, but Sig's behavior has not lead me to giving them the benefit of the doubt. When I get home I'm unloading mine in a safe direction, and letting them collect dust for a while. Got a few variants of Kars lined up to try from a couple friends who like them. P and PM I think. But breaking out my old fs92. That at least got it's reputation for breaking when shot a lot, and never having the springs replaced. 
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