[ARCHIVED THREAD] - SIG “ The P320. It ends today.” (Page 58 of 142)
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Quoted: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/35747/Sig_556R_JPG-3519853.JPG 556R Gen 2  A beautiful wall-hanger at this point Quoted: Quoted: To those considering switching, don't reward Sig by going to the 365. The 320 isn't their first case of treating customers like shit. For years, they've beta tested their products on buyers instead of doing so internally, abandoned products at the drop of a hat thereby leaving buyers in the lurch, etc. They are a shit company and will inevitably screw you again. That's just Ron Cohen Sig, and always will be as long as he is there (and maybe even after he's gone). I'm not even advocating for a specific other brand. I'm not a fanboy and just want something that works. There are plenty of companies that make pistols that do and aren't hot Chinatown garbage like Sig. Please go patronize them instead. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/35747/Sig_556R_JPG-3519853.JPG 556R Gen 2 A beautiful wall-hanger at this point So GD sexy I'd have a couple of sig made replacement parts But that is huge NOPE for me Not popular enough for major aftermarket |
| i collect sig pistols and to me sig is da/sa german classic p-series perfection well known for shooting tighter than normal groups and reliability that you can rely on daily. it saved my life twice. sig is no more now that mr cohen has ruined the company. sub par cast parts outsourced to india and the quagmire thats inevitably going to have to unfold from qc issues that made it the opposite of what it once was. R.I.P. sig. |
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Quoted: This is a perfect opportunity for someone reputable to come out with CNC machined steel FCU parts (sear etc.) to replace the MIM Indian parts. Every internal, at close tolerances, which might fix the tolerance stacking issue...or might not, and introduce additional liability? Nah. Throw it away. |
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Quoted: To those considering switching, don't reward Sig by going to the 365. The 320 isn't their first case of treating customers like shit. For years, they've beta tested their products on buyers instead of doing so internally, abandoned products at the drop of a hat thereby leaving buyers in the lurch, etc. They are a shit company and will inevitably screw you again. That's just Ron Cohen Sig, and always will be as long as he is there (and maybe even after he's gone). I'm not even advocating for a specific other brand. I'm not a fanboy and just want something that works. There are plenty of companies that make pistols that do and aren't hot Chinatown garbage like Sig. Please go patronize them instead. 110% accurate. |
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Quoted: 110% accurate. Quoted: Quoted: To those considering switching, don't reward Sig by going to the 365. The 320 isn't their first case of treating customers like shit. For years, they've beta tested their products on buyers instead of doing so internally, abandoned products at the drop of a hat thereby leaving buyers in the lurch, etc. They are a shit company and will inevitably screw you again. That's just Ron Cohen Sig, and always will be as long as he is there (and maybe even after he's gone). I'm not even advocating for a specific other brand. I'm not a fanboy and just want something that works. There are plenty of companies that make pistols that do and aren't hot Chinatown garbage like Sig. Please go patronize them instead. 110% accurate. kind of my take as well. As much as I bash the p320 (deservedly), I really like the P365 and was thinking of getting one. it's been copied by enough others now that I think I'll just pass. |
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Quoted: 110% accurate. Quoted: Quoted: To those considering switching, don't reward Sig by going to the 365. The 320 isn't their first case of treating customers like shit. For years, they've beta tested their products on buyers instead of doing so internally, abandoned products at the drop of a hat thereby leaving buyers in the lurch, etc. They are a shit company and will inevitably screw you again. That's just Ron Cohen Sig, and always will be as long as he is there (and maybe even after he's gone). I'm not even advocating for a specific other brand. I'm not a fanboy and just want something that works. There are plenty of companies that make pistols that do and aren't hot Chinatown garbage like Sig. Please go patronize them instead. 110% accurate. 200% accurate |
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Quoted: Nobody wants to be part of this. P320 is a dead platform at this point. Amazing that the DoD adopted it. Quoted: Quoted: This is a perfect opportunity for someone reputable to come out with CNC machined steel FCU parts (sear etc.) to replace the MIM Indian parts. Nobody wants to be part of this. P320 is a dead platform at this point. Amazing that the DoD adopted it. Even if Sig discontinued manufacture of the P320 tomorrow, there are millions already in circulation. The vast majority of folks who own one aren’t going to just toss them into the garbage, either. The market for products like that is still going to be fairly large, at absolute minimum, for the semi-immediate future. Liability is another topic entirely, though. |
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Quoted: Even if Sig discontinued manufacture of the P320 tomorrow, there are millions already in circulation. The vast majority of folks who own one aren’t going to just toss them into the garbage, either. The market for products like that is still going to be fairly large, at absolute minimum, for the semi-immediate future. Liability is another topic entirely, though. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: This is a perfect opportunity for someone reputable to come out with CNC machined steel FCU parts (sear etc.) to replace the MIM Indian parts. Nobody wants to be part of this. P320 is a dead platform at this point. Amazing that the DoD adopted it. Even if Sig discontinued manufacture of the P320 tomorrow, there are millions already in circulation. The vast majority of folks who own one aren’t going to just toss them into the garbage, either. The market for products like that is still going to be fairly large, at absolute minimum, for the semi-immediate future. Liability is another topic entirely, though. Plastic grip frames are cheap. Folded sheet metal FCU frames are cheap as well. Apparently, Indian MIM FCG parts are cheap too. Barrels, magazines, and slides are relatively expensive. Someone could make an entirely new pistol using Glock-like FCG parts, a new FCU frame, and new plastic grip frames that fir the new FCU frame, and reuse the 320 slides, barrels, and magazines - IF the FCG parts in the slide aren't irrevocably compromised. If you can only salvage the barrels and magazines, it becomes a much less attractive project as SIG could just release new 250 FCUs and 320 slide mods to work w/ the 250 FCU. |
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Quoted: The market for products like that is still going to be fairly large, at absolute minimum, for the semi-immediate future. Liability is another topic entirely, though. Liability is the problem though, isn't it? Say you come up with a product that completely rectifies all the issues the 320 has and makes them completely safe. Anyone who shoots themselves with one is STILL going to claim the gun is unsafe and now they add you to the list of defendants. It's not worth it. The entire platform is tainted. |
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Quoted: Liability is the problem though, isn't it? Say you come up with a product that completely rectifies all the issues the 320 has and makes them completely safe. Anyone who shoots themselves with one is STILL going to claim the gun is unsafe and now they add you to the list of defendants. It's not worth it. The entire platform is tainted. That's why I think Sig comes up with some sort of solution. Too many out there, too much liability to do nothing. Not an engineer, but I wonder how hard it would be to engineer a manual safety that also locks the sear and reengineer the striker block safety to make it reliable. |
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I have a former US-issued M17. I bought it when they were released to the public a few years back. I've shot it in a few classes, at the range, etc but now after watching all of this I am hesitant to take it out. Has there been any known cases of Military M17s doing this? |
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I still like my 320. I've carried a 365 for a few years. Never an issue. I like sig products. I'm more cautious with my 320 but understand I don't know all the facts behind discharges on an individual basis. I had a spear lt that I fucked the gas block up trying to get the muzzle device off. I sent them in my whole upper. They replaced the barrel that I fucked up ($800) and hooked me up price wise for another upper. I have a few 1000 rounds through that upper no issue. Not simping just giving my opinion. |
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Quoted: That's why I think Sig comes up with some sort of solution. Too many out there, too much liability to do nothing. Not an engineer, but I wonder how hard it would be to engineer a manual safety that also locks the sear and reengineer the striker block safety to make it reliable. Quoted: Quoted: Liability is the problem though, isn't it? Say you come up with a product that completely rectifies all the issues the 320 has and makes them completely safe. Anyone who shoots themselves with one is STILL going to claim the gun is unsafe and now they add you to the list of defendants. It's not worth it. The entire platform is tainted. That's why I think Sig comes up with some sort of solution. Too many out there, too much liability to do nothing. Not an engineer, but I wonder how hard it would be to engineer a manual safety that also locks the sear and reengineer the striker block safety to make it reliable. I think the problem with your manual safety idea is that adding one significantly changes the functionality of the firearm, and then Sig still gets a class action lawsuit anyway from users. |
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Quoted: I have a former US-issued M17. I bought it when they were released to the public a few years back. I've shot it in a few classes, at the range, etc but now after watching all of this I am hesitant to take it out. Has there been any known cases of Military M17s doing this? Nothing of any substance. There does not appear to be the problems with the M17 that seem to plague the 320. |
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Quoted: Nothing of any substance. There does not appear to be the problems with the M17 that seem to plague the 320. Quoted: Quoted: I have a former US-issued M17. I bought it when they were released to the public a few years back. I've shot it in a few classes, at the range, etc but now after watching all of this I am hesitant to take it out. Has there been any known cases of Military M17s doing this? Nothing of any substance. There does not appear to be the problems with the M17 that seem to plague the 320. Ok. I was not sure if they shared any of the same internals or issues. Thanks |
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Quoted: I think the problem with your manual safety idea is that adding one significantly changes the functionality of the firearm, and then Sig still gets a class action lawsuit anyway from users. Maybe, but I would think that doing nothing is a larger liability than to admit there is an issue, have a recall, and implement a fix. It doesn't have to be a manual safety, if a trigger dongle could be engineered that locks the sear until it's pulled that would work as well. The issue is two fold. The striker slipping off the sear, and the striker block safety not functioning correctly 100% of the time. Both have to be addressed. |
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Quoted: I have a former US-issued M17. I bought it when they were released to the public a few years back. I've shot it in a few classes, at the range, etc but now after watching all of this I am hesitant to take it out. Has there been any known cases of Military M17s doing this? There have been multiple cases of NDs with M17s and M18s. Because NDs are usually handled at NJP/Art 15 which are administrative proceedings with no real evidentiary burden, and which aren't usually broadcast to the public, I'm not sure what you'll find about them. |
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Quoted: Nothing of any substance. There does not appear to be the problems with the M17 that seem to plague the 320. Quoted: Quoted: I have a former US-issued M17. I bought it when they were released to the public a few years back. I've shot it in a few classes, at the range, etc but now after watching all of this I am hesitant to take it out. Has there been any known cases of Military M17s doing this? Nothing of any substance. There does not appear to be the problems with the M17 that seem to plague the 320. that's not true at all. .gov reports (which are slower to get) are starting to show up of holster discharges. the presence of a safety lever doesn't change the FCU letting go on its own. Is your own M17 likely to fail? Individually no - you have higher odds of all kinds of other bad things in life. I wouldn't carry it loaded. it's a gallery gun - load, aim and shoot, run dry, set down. |
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Quoted: I have a former US-issued M17. I bought it when they were released to the public a few years back. I've shot it in a few classes, at the range, etc but now after watching all of this I am hesitant to take it out. Has there been any known cases of Military M17s doing this? Why would the army surplus brand new pistols? IMO they had issues Sig offered to swap for "good ones" Then sig sold as "military issue" How many M9s were surplused? I haven't seen any personally, not saying they don't exist just I ain't seen them |
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Quoted: That's why I think Sig comes up with some sort of solution. Too many out there, too much liability to do nothing. Not an engineer, but I wonder how hard it would be to engineer a manual safety that also locks the sear and reengineer the striker block safety to make it reliable. It shouldn’t be hard to modify the trigger bar to lock the sear then add a dingus. We also need to fix the striker block problem. |
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Quoted: It shouldn’t be hard to modify the trigger bar to lock the sear then add a dingus. We also need to fix the striker block problem. I remain convinced that this is overall a tolerance stacking problem on a gun designed to produce a sweet trigger pull so the sear rests on the very edge of release. More generous tolerances along with better QC (not MIM made in a third world country) would be a start. The striker block? For heaven's sake, just make a normal block like the other 20 striker fired designs out there. |
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Quoted: I have a former US-issued M17. I bought it when they were released to the public a few years back. I've shot it in a few classes, at the range, etc but now after watching all of this I am hesitant to take it out. Has there been any known cases of Military M17s doing this? Yes. The most documented case in this thread was a Japanese contract security guard, according to the military investigation on video not screwing w/ his weapon, when it discharged in the holster. Do the punch test on your M17 and see if your striker block works. |
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Quoted: Nothing of any substance. There does not appear to be the problems with the M17 that seem to plague the 320. Quoted: Quoted: I have a former US-issued M17. I bought it when they were released to the public a few years back. I've shot it in a few classes, at the range, etc but now after watching all of this I am hesitant to take it out. Has there been any known cases of Military M17s doing this? Nothing of any substance. There does not appear to be the problems with the M17 that seem to plague the 320. Please don't spread misleading information that could lead to someone carrying a pistol that is possibly unsafe. |
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Quoted: I remain convinced that this is overall a tolerance stacking problem on a gun designed to produce a sweet trigger pull so the sear rests on the very edge of release. More generous tolerances along with better QC (not MIM made in a third world country) would be a start. The striker block? For heaven's sake, just make a normal block like the other 20 striker fired designs out there. Agreed, but I am wondering what can be engineered to work with as little modifications as possible. If the slide has to be replaced, that makes it less likely to get done. |
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Quoted: Maybe, but I would think that doing nothing is a larger liability than to admit there is an issue, have a recall, and implement a fix. It doesn't have to be a manual safety, if a trigger dongle could be engineered that locks the sear until it's pulled that would work as well. The issue is two fold. The striker slipping off the sear, and the striker block safety not functioning correctly 100% of the time. Both have to be addressed. Quoted: Quoted: I think the problem with your manual safety idea is that adding one significantly changes the functionality of the firearm, and then Sig still gets a class action lawsuit anyway from users. Maybe, but I would think that doing nothing is a larger liability than to admit there is an issue, have a recall, and implement a fix. It doesn't have to be a manual safety, if a trigger dongle could be engineered that locks the sear until it's pulled that would work as well. The issue is two fold. The striker slipping off the sear, and the striker block safety not functioning correctly 100% of the time. Both have to be addressed. If the striker block is reengineered, the Uncommanded Discharges go away, and there's a tiny incidence of dead triggers that are probably never noticed. For SIG to "fix" this problem so that their customers are not getting shot in the leg, they only need to fix the striker block so that it works all the time. I don't know if they can do that affordably - given they've chosen the Ford Pinto route of it being cheaper for their customers to bleed out than for them to recall all 320s & mill/possibly replace all the 320 slides & FCGs out there. They've pretty evidently decided that the fix is more expensive than the number of lawsuits they'll have to settle, but they're betting their brand will survive this. I don't think they had counted on Trenchcoat's punch test that is repeatable on any 320 - and is evidently being used by police armorers who are then shooting star clusters up to command staff, who drop the 320 like a hot potato. Police departments dropping the 320 wholesale will kill SIG's brand in the US. |
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Quoted: Agreed, but I am wondering what can be engineered to work with as little modifications as possible. If the slide has to be replaced, that makes it less likely to get done. Quoted: Quoted: I remain convinced that this is overall a tolerance stacking problem on a gun designed to produce a sweet trigger pull so the sear rests on the very edge of release. More generous tolerances along with better QC (not MIM made in a third world country) would be a start. The striker block? For heaven's sake, just make a normal block like the other 20 striker fired designs out there. Agreed, but I am wondering what can be engineered to work with as little modifications as possible. If the slide has to be replaced, that makes it less likely to get done. |
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Quoted: Increase the depth of the notch in the striker housing so that it gas more than .032" capable engagement. Then tighten up the tolerances and QC so you don't end up with .003" of engagement. That the block pivots instead of slides isn't the issue. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I remain convinced that this is overall a tolerance stacking problem on a gun designed to produce a sweet trigger pull so the sear rests on the very edge of release. More generous tolerances along with better QC (not MIM made in a third world country) would be a start. The striker block? For heaven's sake, just make a normal block like the other 20 striker fired designs out there. Agreed, but I am wondering what can be engineered to work with as little modifications as possible. If the slide has to be replaced, that makes it less likely to get done. Increase the depth of the notch in the striker housing so that it gas more than .032" capable engagement. Then tighten up the tolerances and QC so you don't end up with .003" of engagement. That the block pivots instead of slides isn't the issue. Can that be done w/o milling slides? |
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Quoted: Can that be done w/o milling slides? Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I remain convinced that this is overall a tolerance stacking problem on a gun designed to produce a sweet trigger pull so the sear rests on the very edge of release. More generous tolerances along with better QC (not MIM made in a third world country) would be a start. The striker block? For heaven's sake, just make a normal block like the other 20 striker fired designs out there. Agreed, but I am wondering what can be engineered to work with as little modifications as possible. If the slide has to be replaced, that makes it less likely to get done. Increase the depth of the notch in the striker housing so that it gas more than .032" capable engagement. Then tighten up the tolerances and QC so you don't end up with .003" of engagement. That the block pivots instead of slides isn't the issue. Can that be done w/o milling slides? Also, do QC on the FCUs and reject or replace any with the rails positioned so that the striker block is deactivated or close to it. |
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Quoted: Even if Sig discontinued manufacture of the P320 tomorrow, there are millions already in circulation. The vast majority of folks who own one aren’t going to just toss them into the garbage, either. The market for products like that is still going to be fairly large, at absolute minimum, for the semi-immediate future. Liability is another topic entirely, though. correct mine is fantastic and wouldn't get rid of it. I also don't carry one in the chamber (on any handgun) |
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Quoted: Quoted: correct mine is fantastic and wouldn't get rid of it. I also don't carry one in the chamber (on any handgun) WTF? https://i.ibb.co/d28xXnm/disgusted-appalled.gif Yeah you have to find a balance between speed and safety. Israeli carry isn't it. Neither is condition zero. Hammer down DA/SA is where it's at. |
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Quoted: Yeah you have to find a balance between speed and safety. Israeli carry isn't it. Neither is condition zero. Hammer down DA/SA is where it's at. A mechanically safe striker fired pistol with a proper holster is 100% safe to carry with a round in the chamber. Empty chamber carry is actually more fucking retarded than taking your pants off and putting them on your head in public. It's wearing a helmet and licking the window on the short bus retarded. |
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Quoted: Yeah you have to find a balance between speed and safety. Israeli carry isn't it. Neither is condition zero. Hammer down DA/SA is where it's at. Carrying a pistol that can be safely carried in the condition it was designed to be carried in seems like a good compromise to me |
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Quoted: Nothing of any substance. There does not appear to be the problems with the M17 that seem to plague the 320. Quoted: Quoted: I have a former US-issued M17. I bought it when they were released to the public a few years back. I've shot it in a few classes, at the range, etc but now after watching all of this I am hesitant to take it out. Has there been any known cases of Military M17s doing this? Nothing of any substance. There does not appear to be the problems with the M17 that seem to plague the 320. The total amount of time the military pistols are loaded compared to the total amount of time civilian 320s are loaded is an order of magnitude smaller, so there is a possibility that the military variants have this issue, we just haven’t had a statistically significant amount of time for it to occur |
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Quoted: A mechanically safe striker fired pistol with a proper holster is 100% safe to carry with a round in the chamber. Empty chamber carry is actually more fucking retarded than taking your pants off and putting them on your head in public. It's wearing a helmet and licking the window on the short bus retarded. Nothing is 100%. Maybe once it's actually IN a secure, properly designed holster, you begin to approach 100%. But clearly (and backed by many incidents as evidence) human beings who SHOULD be competent based on their training, employment, etc still can't manage to not shoot themselves with glocks and other striker guns while getting these guns into and out of the holster. There will continue to be NDs in the future with glocks and other "no safety" guns, by properly trained, assumed to be competent people, and that number will exceed the number of NDs with guns equipped with manual safeties or decockers. Carrying necessarily involves an imperfect human getting the gun in and out of the holster in often imperfect conditions, and the person who gets shot is sometimes not the person who fumbles the gun. |
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Quoted: Carrying a pistol that can be safely carried in the condition it was designed to be carried in seems like a good compromise to me That's just it though. Just because a gun CAN be carried safely doesn't mean it WILL be. Gun designs that minimize the risk from incompetent fumbling idiots while still allowing a full chamber are safer. |
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Quoted: Yeah you have to find a balance between speed and safety. Israeli carry isn't it. Neither is condition zero. Hammer down DA/SA is where it's at. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: correct mine is fantastic and wouldn't get rid of it. I also don't carry one in the chamber (on any handgun) WTF? https://i.ibb.co/d28xXnm/disgusted-appalled.gif Yeah you have to find a balance between speed and safety. Israeli carry isn't it. Neither is condition zero. Hammer down DA/SA is where it's at. But its impossible to be accurate with that first DA shot, or so Ive heard so many times over the years... /s |
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Quoted: That's just it though. Just because a gun CAN be carried safely doesn't mean it WILL be. Gun designs that minimize the risk from incompetent fumbling idiots while still allowing a full chamber are safer. Well yeah you could carry a P-01 cocked with one in the chamber, but that's a user issue. That isn't the same as carrying a P320 with or without the safety that may go off on its own when carried condition 1. |
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Quoted: But its impossible to be accurate with that first DA shot, or so Ive heard so many times over the years... /s Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: correct mine is fantastic and wouldn't get rid of it. I also don't carry one in the chamber (on any handgun) WTF? https://i.ibb.co/d28xXnm/disgusted-appalled.gif Yeah you have to find a balance between speed and safety. Israeli carry isn't it. Neither is condition zero. Hammer down DA/SA is where it's at. But its impossible to be accurate with that first DA shot, or so Ive heard so many times over the years... /s Hehe yeah there is this myth about DA that just persists. The people who struggle with it are probably jerking their trigger anyway. |
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Quoted: I have a former US-issued M17. I bought it when they were released to the public a few years back. I've shot it in a few classes, at the range, etc but now after watching all of this I am hesitant to take it out. Has there been any known cases of Military M17s doing this? Yes, even with the Safety on. |
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Quoted: Hehe yeah there is this myth about DA that just persists. The people who struggle with it are probably jerking their trigger anyway. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: correct mine is fantastic and wouldn't get rid of it. I also don't carry one in the chamber (on any handgun) WTF? https://i.ibb.co/d28xXnm/disgusted-appalled.gif Yeah you have to find a balance between speed and safety. Israeli carry isn't it. Neither is condition zero. Hammer down DA/SA is where it's at. But its impossible to be accurate with that first DA shot, or so Ive heard so many times over the years... /s Hehe yeah there is this myth about DA that just persists. The people who struggle with it are probably jerking their trigger anyway. Jack Welch church gun man first-shot head-shot at 20 yards was done with a P226 in .357 Sig in DA mode. |
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Quoted: Why would the army surplus brand new pistols? IMO they had issues Sig offered to swap for "good ones" Then sig sold as "military issue" How many M9s were surplused? I haven't seen any personally, not saying they don't exist just I ain't seen them The first 5900 or so M17s had FCGs with no disconnector; Sig swapped them for newer pistols with the normal post |