[ARCHIVED THREAD] - SIG “ The P320. It ends today.” (Page 59 of 142)
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Quoted: Does anyone know if .mil scrapped all of the M9 pistols or are they still available for issue if at some point the Sig is pulled from service for re-evaluation or some other excuse? There should be plenty. Beretta had a new, large M9 contract not too long ago. |
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Quoted: Is there a list of departments dropping, or have dropped, the Sig P320? Dallas PD dropped it years ago Quoted: Quoted: Police departments dropping the 320 wholesale will kill SIG's brand in the US. Is there a list of departments dropping, or have dropped, the Sig P320? Dallas PD dropped it years ago We've not compiled a running list yet, but think most of the departments so far are mentioned in this thread: https://www.ar15.com/forums/t_1_5/2789768_Sig-Sauer-P320-banned-by-the-Denver-Police-Department.html |
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Quoted: The total amount of time the military pistols are loaded compared to the total amount of time civilian 320s are loaded is an order of magnitude smaller, so there is a possibility that the military variants have this issue, we just haven’t had a statistically significant amount of time for it to occur Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I have a former US-issued M17. I bought it when they were released to the public a few years back. I've shot it in a few classes, at the range, etc but now after watching all of this I am hesitant to take it out. Has there been any known cases of Military M17s doing this? Nothing of any substance. There does not appear to be the problems with the M17 that seem to plague the 320. The total amount of time the military pistols are loaded compared to the total amount of time civilian 320s are loaded is an order of magnitude smaller, so there is a possibility that the military variants have this issue, we just haven’t had a statistically significant amount of time for it to occur In this thread, there is a quote from the report in Japan of the contracted Japanese security guard whose M17 went off on video, and according to the investigating officer, wasn't fucking with it. Flashman-7k has compiled a list of all known documentation & videos here: https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/SIG-The-P320-It-ends-today-/5-2782910/?r=113174948&page=54&anc=113174948#i113174948 Attached File |
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Quoted: Empty chamber carry is actually more fucking retarded than taking your pants off and putting them on your head in public. It's wearing a helmet and licking the window on the short bus retarded. Well... None other than Lt Col William Fairbairn trained the Shanghai Police to carry their 1911s chamber empty w/ pinned safeties. Would you call Lt Col Fairbairn a short bus rider? |
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Quoted: Well... None other than Lt Col William Fairbairn trained the Shanghai Police to carry their 1911s chamber empty w/ pinned safeties. Would you call Lt Col Fairbairn a short bus rider? Quoted: Quoted: Empty chamber carry is actually more fucking retarded than taking your pants off and putting them on your head in public. It's wearing a helmet and licking the window on the short bus retarded. Well... None other than Lt Col William Fairbairn trained the Shanghai Police to carry their 1911s chamber empty w/ pinned safeties. Would you call Lt Col Fairbairn a short bus rider? I think the reaction of Empty Chamber carry is a bit overstated. I personally don't believe in it, and question carrying a gun system that calls for that to be safe (ahem - SIG P320, but there are some other older legacy guns one could say the same - like a .25 Baby Browning, etc). But sure, I'm not going to call someone retarded if that's how they want to roll. But yea, I do believe in a CHL encounter, the ability to one hand draw and quickly fire is pretty important. Far moreso than round capacity, in fact. That said, if some people don't want to carry that way, they aren't as completely ineffectual like people act. They're just are limited to settings where they will have both hands free, and will have an extra second to make the gun ready. Unfortunately, that setting isn't so always the case when a CHL pistol is needed. |
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Quoted: I think the reaction of Empty Chamber carry is a bit overstated. I personally don't believe in it, and question carrying a gun system that calls for that to be safe (ahem - SIG P320, but there are some other older legacy guns one could say the same - like a .25 Baby Browning, etc). But sure, I'm not going to call someone retarded if that's how they want to roll. But yea, I do believe in a CHL encounter, the ability to one hand draw and quickly fire is pretty important. Far moreso than round capacity, in fact. That said, if some people don't want to carry that way, they aren't as completely ineffectual like people act. They're just are limited to settings where they will have both hands free, and will have an extra second to make the gun ready. Unfortunately, that setting isn't so always the case when a CHL pistol is needed. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Empty chamber carry is actually more fucking retarded than taking your pants off and putting them on your head in public. It's wearing a helmet and licking the window on the short bus retarded. Well... None other than Lt Col William Fairbairn trained the Shanghai Police to carry their 1911s chamber empty w/ pinned safeties. Would you call Lt Col Fairbairn a short bus rider? I think the reaction of Empty Chamber carry is a bit overstated. I personally don't believe in it, and question carrying a gun system that calls for that to be safe (ahem - SIG P320, but there are some other older legacy guns one could say the same - like a .25 Baby Browning, etc). But sure, I'm not going to call someone retarded if that's how they want to roll. But yea, I do believe in a CHL encounter, the ability to one hand draw and quickly fire is pretty important. Far moreso than round capacity, in fact. That said, if some people don't want to carry that way, they aren't as completely ineffectual like people act. They're just are limited to settings where they will have both hands free, and will have an extra second to make the gun ready. Unfortunately, that setting isn't so always the case when a CHL pistol is needed. Do we have actual civilian shooting statistics on that, or is this just internet theory? I have a friend on this board that used a Taurus to canoe an attacker's head open, but I don't know the outcome would have been any different had he had to rack the slide. |
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Quoted: Well... None other than Lt Col William Fairbairn trained the Shanghai Police to carry their 1911s chamber empty w/ pinned safeties. Would you call Lt Col Fairbairn a short bus rider? Quoted: Quoted: Empty chamber carry is actually more fucking retarded than taking your pants off and putting them on your head in public. It's wearing a helmet and licking the window on the short bus retarded. Well... None other than Lt Col William Fairbairn trained the Shanghai Police to carry their 1911s chamber empty w/ pinned safeties. Would you call Lt Col Fairbairn a short bus rider? I don't think I'd want to carry like that. Part of the problem of the various modes of carry, action types and active and passive safeties is that no one system is best for every application. CCW folks carrying small guns IWB are different than police carrying full frame guns OWB in retention holsters, and those have different needs than the military, etc. There just isn't a one size fits all solution. Empty chamber carry is a band-aid for an unsafe condition. Whether it's user training, holster type and position, action type, active and passive safeties, etc. Anyone advocating for empty chamber carry has identified a factor that led them to believe carry with that particular gun, by that particular group, in that particular fashion, is unsafe with a loaded chamber. If part of that calculus is that a grip safety makes the gun less effective in certain circumstances, it has to be viewed in light of whether an empty chamber with a pinned grip safety renders the gun less effective overall than just risking the rare possibility that the grip safety will be a problem. The real solution is to change the training and equipment to allow for safe carry with a loaded chamber. |
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Quoted: I think the reaction of Empty Chamber carry is a bit overstated. I personally don't believe in it, and question carrying a gun system that calls for that to be safe (ahem - SIG P320, but there are some other older legacy guns one could say the same - like a .25 Baby Browning, etc). But sure, I'm not going to call someone retarded if that's how they want to roll. But yea, I do believe in a CHL encounter, the ability to one hand draw and quickly fire is pretty important. Far moreso than round capacity, in fact. That said, if some people don't want to carry that way, they aren't as completely ineffectual like people act. They're just are limited to settings where they will have both hands free, and will have an extra second to make the gun ready. Unfortunately, that setting isn't so always the case when a CHL pistol is needed. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Empty chamber carry is actually more fucking retarded than taking your pants off and putting them on your head in public. It's wearing a helmet and licking the window on the short bus retarded. Well... None other than Lt Col William Fairbairn trained the Shanghai Police to carry their 1911s chamber empty w/ pinned safeties. Would you call Lt Col Fairbairn a short bus rider? I think the reaction of Empty Chamber carry is a bit overstated. I personally don't believe in it, and question carrying a gun system that calls for that to be safe (ahem - SIG P320, but there are some other older legacy guns one could say the same - like a .25 Baby Browning, etc). But sure, I'm not going to call someone retarded if that's how they want to roll. But yea, I do believe in a CHL encounter, the ability to one hand draw and quickly fire is pretty important. Far moreso than round capacity, in fact. That said, if some people don't want to carry that way, they aren't as completely ineffectual like people act. They're just are limited to settings where they will have both hands free, and will have an extra second to make the gun ready. Unfortunately, that setting isn't so always the case when a CHL pistol is needed. In the modern era, we have much better access to information and training. I’ve done some simulator based training that uses modified G17s in a room with a projector system. One of the first scenarios you see in this training is a guy 21 feet away charging with a knife. Drawing, aiming, and firing before time runs out isn’t a given. A lot of people fail this drill the first time they see it. And this is just the starting point. Several of the other drills have even less time, sometimes combined with smaller presentations of the target threat. Carrying a semiauto pistol on an empty chamber is a MASSIVE limitation. |
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Quoted: Well... None other than Lt Col William Fairbairn trained the Shanghai Police to carry their 1911s chamber empty w/ pinned safeties. Would you call Lt Col Fairbairn a short bus rider? Appeal to authority, a logical fallacy. Carrying chamber empty is safety for sloths. |
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Quoted: Is there a list of departments dropping, or have dropped, the Sig P320? Dallas PD dropped it years ago Quoted: Quoted: Police departments dropping the 320 wholesale will kill SIG's brand in the US. Is there a list of departments dropping, or have dropped, the Sig P320? Dallas PD dropped it years ago To be clear, any compiled list of departments is going to be only those who have made public statements. Most departments are going to keep their mouths shut and keep their transition quiet to prevent any "your cop shot me with a dangerous gun" claims. |
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Quoted: correct mine is fantastic and wouldn't get rid of it. I also don't carry one in the chamber (on any handgun) Quoted: Quoted: Even if Sig discontinued manufacture of the P320 tomorrow, there are millions already in circulation. The vast majority of folks who own one aren’t going to just toss them into the garbage, either. The market for products like that is still going to be fairly large, at absolute minimum, for the semi-immediate future. Liability is another topic entirely, though. correct mine is fantastic and wouldn't get rid of it. I also don't carry one in the chamber (on any handgun) 
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Quoted: Appeal to authority, a logical fallacy. Carrying chamber empty is safety for sloths. Quoted: Quoted: Well... None other than Lt Col William Fairbairn trained the Shanghai Police to carry their 1911s chamber empty w/ pinned safeties. Would you call Lt Col Fairbairn a short bus rider? Appeal to authority, a logical fallacy. Carrying chamber empty is safety for sloths. Not only that, an appeal to an authority figure that's almost a century out of date. He also taught to only use one hand while shooting the pistol. We would rightly consider that retarded in the current era, given a few decades worth of global improvement and refinement of knowledge and best practices. A pistol that can't be safely carried with a chambered round is unacceptably useless. A shooter who can't be trusted to safely carry a chambered pistol is a liability - organizationally-speaking, either fire them or fix them. |
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Quoted: Do we have actual civilian shooting statistics on that, or is this just internet theory? I have a friend on this board that used a Taurus to canoe an attacker's head open, but I don't know the outcome would have been any different had he had to rack the slide. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Empty chamber carry is actually more fucking retarded than taking your pants off and putting them on your head in public. It's wearing a helmet and licking the window on the short bus retarded. Well... None other than Lt Col William Fairbairn trained the Shanghai Police to carry their 1911s chamber empty w/ pinned safeties. Would you call Lt Col Fairbairn a short bus rider? I think the reaction of Empty Chamber carry is a bit overstated. I personally don't believe in it, and question carrying a gun system that calls for that to be safe (ahem - SIG P320, but there are some other older legacy guns one could say the same - like a .25 Baby Browning, etc). But sure, I'm not going to call someone retarded if that's how they want to roll. But yea, I do believe in a CHL encounter, the ability to one hand draw and quickly fire is pretty important. Far moreso than round capacity, in fact. That said, if some people don't want to carry that way, they aren't as completely ineffectual like people act. They're just are limited to settings where they will have both hands free, and will have an extra second to make the gun ready. Unfortunately, that setting isn't so always the case when a CHL pistol is needed. Do we have actual civilian shooting statistics on that, or is this just internet theory? I have a friend on this board that used a Taurus to canoe an attacker's head open, but I don't know the outcome would have been any different had he had to rack the slide. There might be. Most CHL encounter stats aren't as complete as you'd like. Indeed, even "stopping power" stats are spotty, since they often don't break down ammo, etc. I know in the one (1) CHL incident I had, i was walking back to my in-city apartment from a symphony (yea for realz) and there was a dark street portion close to the my Apt. complex. I had literally bought the pistol the prior day, and it was first day to ever carry a CHL - ever. As walking back, a couple latino's in a truck stopped, backed up, and the guy rolled down his window to "ask directions". Which was odd. I pointed where they should go, and the guy "couldn't hear me", and opened his truck door, and got out to start walking to me. My spidey sense said "something ain't right here". I put my hand in my pocket where my (loaded) pocket pistol was (in a pistol-holster/sleeve with a safe non-SIG trigger system), and held my left hand to him palm up and said "waoh". Dude stopped cold, got back into his truck, and drove off. Gun never came out. Was I about to be robbed? Did I overreact? I did not draw yet, but if I had to my left hand was busy already, telling him to stop. I was already positioned for a lower-profile Weaver stance shot, meaning my left hand had a long way to go to get back to a drawn pistol; if I had an empty gun that needed to be racked coming out. If I did need to draw did I have the extra time to manually rack the slide? And did I have the attention capacity to do that action, and decreased capacity to pay attention to a dynamic unfolding scene, if that'w this became? I'm not prepared to answer any of those, but in that scenario, I'm glad that gun was loaded and ready to fire the moment it came up, if it came to that. I'm very glad the gun never came out and it didn't come to that. Never had a CHL encounter again since then. I don't think my story is that unique. I would far rather have a gun ready to go, when it's GO Time. If others don't want to, that's on them. If I were carrying a .25 Baby Browning (coat and tie setting now! You have to match!) I would have had an empty chamber. I was carrying a modern .380. There is no scenario I'd ever be carrying a P320. That size gun is absurd for personal CHL carry to begin with. And considering the poor safety aspects of it, no way. Only way I'm carrying a P320 is if I'm forced to. And yea, I'm probably going to carry it empty chamber, unless I know for sure I'm going right into serious harms way. I do sometimes carry a P99 - not often as it's just a big gun. But if I think there's an enhanced security potential, and the weather/conditions allow it, I'll do the P99. When I do, it's in DA mode. I could carry it in Safe-Action mode, but generally I'll just do it in the safer DA. |
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Quoted: In this thread, there is a quote from the report in Japan of the contracted Japanese security guard whose M17 went off on video, and according to the investigating officer, wasn't fucking with it. Flashman-7k has compiled a list of all known documentation & videos here: https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/SIG-The-P320-It-ends-today-/5-2782910/?r=113174948&page=54&anc=113174948#i113174948 https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/227964/download-1_jpg-3484255.JPG Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I have a former US-issued M17. I bought it when they were released to the public a few years back. I've shot it in a few classes, at the range, etc but now after watching all of this I am hesitant to take it out. Has there been any known cases of Military M17s doing this? Nothing of any substance. There does not appear to be the problems with the M17 that seem to plague the 320. The total amount of time the military pistols are loaded compared to the total amount of time civilian 320s are loaded is an order of magnitude smaller, so there is a possibility that the military variants have this issue, we just haven’t had a statistically significant amount of time for it to occur In this thread, there is a quote from the report in Japan of the contracted Japanese security guard whose M17 went off on video, and according to the investigating officer, wasn't fucking with it. Flashman-7k has compiled a list of all known documentation & videos here: https://www.ar15.com/forums/general/SIG-The-P320-It-ends-today-/5-2782910/?r=113174948&page=54&anc=113174948#i113174948 https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/227964/download-1_jpg-3484255.JPG It's not all known. It's just what I could find in these threads. |
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Quoted: I don't think I'd want to carry like that. Part of the problem of the various modes of carry, action types and active and passive safeties is that no one system is best for every application. CCW folks carrying small guns IWB are different than police carrying full frame guns OWB in retention holsters, and those have different needs than the military, etc. There just isn't a one size fits all solution. Empty chamber carry is a band-aid for an unsafe condition. Whether it's user training, holster type and position, action type, active and passive safeties, etc. Anyone advocating for empty chamber carry has identified a factor that led them to believe carry with that particular gun, by that particular group, in that particular fashion, is unsafe with a loaded chamber. If part of that calculus is that a grip safety makes the gun less effective in certain circumstances, it has to be viewed in light of whether an empty chamber with a pinned grip safety renders the gun less effective overall than just risking the rare possibility that the grip safety will be a problem. The real solution is to change the training and equipment to allow for safe carry with a loaded chamber. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Empty chamber carry is actually more fucking retarded than taking your pants off and putting them on your head in public. It's wearing a helmet and licking the window on the short bus retarded. Well... None other than Lt Col William Fairbairn trained the Shanghai Police to carry their 1911s chamber empty w/ pinned safeties. Would you call Lt Col Fairbairn a short bus rider? I don't think I'd want to carry like that. Part of the problem of the various modes of carry, action types and active and passive safeties is that no one system is best for every application. CCW folks carrying small guns IWB are different than police carrying full frame guns OWB in retention holsters, and those have different needs than the military, etc. There just isn't a one size fits all solution. Empty chamber carry is a band-aid for an unsafe condition. Whether it's user training, holster type and position, action type, active and passive safeties, etc. Anyone advocating for empty chamber carry has identified a factor that led them to believe carry with that particular gun, by that particular group, in that particular fashion, is unsafe with a loaded chamber. If part of that calculus is that a grip safety makes the gun less effective in certain circumstances, it has to be viewed in light of whether an empty chamber with a pinned grip safety renders the gun less effective overall than just risking the rare possibility that the grip safety will be a problem. The real solution is to change the training and equipment to allow for safe carry with a loaded chamber. I think why Fairbairn adopted the policy, and why we know it as Israeli carry, is reduced training time - in the Israeli case, on a multitude of semi-auto pistols. Chamber empty, safeties off works regardless if it's a P-38, FN Hi-Power, Beretta 92, or a Glock. I'm not arguing that it's the best way to carry, but if that's how you trained, it most likely will work in the very small chance you will actually ever have to use it. The Navy tried to teach me ejection port loading w/ the Mossberg 500 in 2002. I started the qual, ejection port loaded the gun - and then promptly ejected the loaded round & loaded one from the magazine. I'd never learned ejection port loading on the 870 20 ga Youth I'd carried as a car gun for 5 years previously, carrying it cruiser locked. |
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Quoted: In the modern era, we have much better access to information and training. I’ve done some simulator based training that uses modified G17s in a room with a projector system. One of the first scenarios you see in this training is a guy 21 feet away charging with a knife. Drawing, aiming, and firing before time runs out isn’t a given. A lot of people fail this drill the first time they see it. And this is just the starting point. Several of the other drills have even less time, sometimes combined with smaller presentations of the target threat. Carrying a semiauto pistol on an empty chamber is a MASSIVE limitation. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Empty chamber carry is actually more fucking retarded than taking your pants off and putting them on your head in public. It's wearing a helmet and licking the window on the short bus retarded. Well... None other than Lt Col William Fairbairn trained the Shanghai Police to carry their 1911s chamber empty w/ pinned safeties. Would you call Lt Col Fairbairn a short bus rider? I think the reaction of Empty Chamber carry is a bit overstated. I personally don't believe in it, and question carrying a gun system that calls for that to be safe (ahem - SIG P320, but there are some other older legacy guns one could say the same - like a .25 Baby Browning, etc). But sure, I'm not going to call someone retarded if that's how they want to roll. But yea, I do believe in a CHL encounter, the ability to one hand draw and quickly fire is pretty important. Far moreso than round capacity, in fact. That said, if some people don't want to carry that way, they aren't as completely ineffectual like people act. They're just are limited to settings where they will have both hands free, and will have an extra second to make the gun ready. Unfortunately, that setting isn't so always the case when a CHL pistol is needed. In the modern era, we have much better access to information and training. I’ve done some simulator based training that uses modified G17s in a room with a projector system. One of the first scenarios you see in this training is a guy 21 feet away charging with a knife. Drawing, aiming, and firing before time runs out isn’t a given. A lot of people fail this drill the first time they see it. And this is just the starting point. Several of the other drills have even less time, sometimes combined with smaller presentations of the target threat. Carrying a semiauto pistol on an empty chamber is a MASSIVE limitation. About the only way to beat the Tueller Drill is to retreat as you draw. The 1st time I encountered it I "won" b/c I was backing up while drawing. If I was Israeli carrying I still probably would have beat the drill as I was creating distance and drawing from a duty holster. |
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Quoted: Well... None other than Lt Col William Fairbairn trained the Shanghai Police to carry their 1911s chamber empty w/ pinned safeties. Would you call Lt Col Fairbairn a short bus rider? Comparing an ancient 1911 to a modern striker fired pistol that's not a Sig P320 isn't apples to apples comparison. If he taught that in say the early 2000s, then yes I would. If it was in the 1930s, not as much, although a revolver would have been a better choice. If your sidearm isn't instantly ready to go you are stupid and probably shouldn't be carrying a handgun. |
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Quoted: There might be. Most CHL encounter stats aren't as complete as you'd like. Indeed, even "stopping power" stats are spotty, since they often don't break down ammo, etc. I know in the one (1) CHL incident I had, i was walking back to my in-city apartment from a symphony (yea for realz) and there was a dark street portion close to the my Apt. complex. I had literally bought the pistol the prior day, and it was first day to ever carry a CHL - ever. As walking back, a couple latino's in a truck stopped, backed up, and the guy rolled down his window to "ask directions". Which was odd. I pointed where they should go, and the guy "couldn't hear me", and opened his truck door, and got out to start walking to me. My spidey sense said "something ain't right here". I put my hand in my pocket where my (loaded) pocket pistol was (in a pistol-holster/sleeve with a safe non-SIG trigger system), and held my left hand to him palm up and said "waoh". Dude stopped cold, got back into his truck, and drove off. Gun never came out. Was I about to be robbed? Did I overreact? I did not draw yet, but if I had to my left hand was busy already, telling him to stop. I was already positioned for a lower-profile Weaver stance shot, meaning my left hand had a long way to go to get back to a drawn pistol; if I had an empty gun that needed to be racked coming out. If I did need to draw did I have the extra time to manually rack the slide? And did I have the attention capacity to do that action, and decreased capacity to pay attention to a dynamic unfolding scene, if that'w this became? I'm not prepared to answer any of those, but in that scenario, I'm glad that gun was loaded and ready to fire the moment it came up, if it came to that. I'm very glad the gun never came out and it didn't come to that. Never had a CHL encounter again since then. I don't think my story is that unique. I would far rather have a gun ready to go, when it's GO Time. If others don't want to, that's on them. If I were carrying a .25 Baby Browning (coat and tie setting now! You have to match!) I would have had an empty chamber. I was carrying a modern .380. There is no scenario I'd ever be carrying a P320. That size gun is absurd for personal CHL carry to begin with. And considering the poor safety aspects of it, no way. Only way I'm carrying a P320 is if I'm forced to. And yea, I'm probably going to carry it empty chamber, unless I know for sure I'm going right into serious harms way. I do sometimes carry a P99 - not often as it's just a big gun. But if I think there's an enhanced security potential, and the weather/conditions allow it, I'll do the P99. When I do, it's in DA mode. I could carry it in Safe-Action mode, but generally I'll just do it in the safer DA. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Empty chamber carry is actually more fucking retarded than taking your pants off and putting them on your head in public. It's wearing a helmet and licking the window on the short bus retarded. Well... None other than Lt Col William Fairbairn trained the Shanghai Police to carry their 1911s chamber empty w/ pinned safeties. Would you call Lt Col Fairbairn a short bus rider? I think the reaction of Empty Chamber carry is a bit overstated. I personally don't believe in it, and question carrying a gun system that calls for that to be safe (ahem - SIG P320, but there are some other older legacy guns one could say the same - like a .25 Baby Browning, etc). But sure, I'm not going to call someone retarded if that's how they want to roll. But yea, I do believe in a CHL encounter, the ability to one hand draw and quickly fire is pretty important. Far moreso than round capacity, in fact. That said, if some people don't want to carry that way, they aren't as completely ineffectual like people act. They're just are limited to settings where they will have both hands free, and will have an extra second to make the gun ready. Unfortunately, that setting isn't so always the case when a CHL pistol is needed. Do we have actual civilian shooting statistics on that, or is this just internet theory? I have a friend on this board that used a Taurus to canoe an attacker's head open, but I don't know the outcome would have been any different had he had to rack the slide. There might be. Most CHL encounter stats aren't as complete as you'd like. Indeed, even "stopping power" stats are spotty, since they often don't break down ammo, etc. I know in the one (1) CHL incident I had, i was walking back to my in-city apartment from a symphony (yea for realz) and there was a dark street portion close to the my Apt. complex. I had literally bought the pistol the prior day, and it was first day to ever carry a CHL - ever. As walking back, a couple latino's in a truck stopped, backed up, and the guy rolled down his window to "ask directions". Which was odd. I pointed where they should go, and the guy "couldn't hear me", and opened his truck door, and got out to start walking to me. My spidey sense said "something ain't right here". I put my hand in my pocket where my (loaded) pocket pistol was (in a pistol-holster/sleeve with a safe non-SIG trigger system), and held my left hand to him palm up and said "waoh". Dude stopped cold, got back into his truck, and drove off. Gun never came out. Was I about to be robbed? Did I overreact? I did not draw yet, but if I had to my left hand was busy already, telling him to stop. I was already positioned for a lower-profile Weaver stance shot, meaning my left hand had a long way to go to get back to a drawn pistol; if I had an empty gun that needed to be racked coming out. If I did need to draw did I have the extra time to manually rack the slide? And did I have the attention capacity to do that action, and decreased capacity to pay attention to a dynamic unfolding scene, if that'w this became? I'm not prepared to answer any of those, but in that scenario, I'm glad that gun was loaded and ready to fire the moment it came up, if it came to that. I'm very glad the gun never came out and it didn't come to that. Never had a CHL encounter again since then. I don't think my story is that unique. I would far rather have a gun ready to go, when it's GO Time. If others don't want to, that's on them. If I were carrying a .25 Baby Browning (coat and tie setting now! You have to match!) I would have had an empty chamber. I was carrying a modern .380. There is no scenario I'd ever be carrying a P320. That size gun is absurd for personal CHL carry to begin with. And considering the poor safety aspects of it, no way. Only way I'm carrying a P320 is if I'm forced to. And yea, I'm probably going to carry it empty chamber, unless I know for sure I'm going right into serious harms way. I do sometimes carry a P99 - not often as it's just a big gun. But if I think there's an enhanced security potential, and the weather/conditions allow it, I'll do the P99. When I do, it's in DA mode. I could carry it in Safe-Action mode, but generally I'll just do it in the safer DA. I think if you had drawn the pistol & racked it, it would've had the same effect as the body language you used. I carried my 20 ga PG 870 around for years cruiser locked, and discovered I could rack it & have it sitting in my lap pretty fast. There are disadvantages to any method of carry, but to call it pants on head retarded as was said earlier is a bit much. Is it the best method? Probably not. Is it better to carry a normal capacity semi w/ the chamber empty or a 5 shot DAO revolver? Those aren't our only choices, but plenty of ARFCOMers run around w/ a 5 shot snubbie every day. If all you have at the moment is a 320, chamber empty is the order of the day for the moment til you can get a better gun - maybe a HiPoint or a close out SCCY. 
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Haven't watched yet: Failed To Load Title |
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Quoted: Nothing of any substance. There does not appear to be the problems with the M17 that seem to plague the 320. Quoted: Quoted: I have a former US-issued M17. I bought it when they were released to the public a few years back. I've shot it in a few classes, at the range, etc but now after watching all of this I am hesitant to take it out. Has there been any known cases of Military M17s doing this? Nothing of any substance. There does not appear to be the problems with the M17 that seem to plague the 320. Incorrect Attached File |
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He freezes the frame on the holster as the student turns to leave, and there is nothing anyhere near it that could have gotten caught in the holster. Shirt is tucked in tight and the holster is on a hanger well away from his body. |
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Quoted: Appeal to authority, a logical fallacy. Carrying chamber empty is safety for sloths. Quoted: Quoted: Well... None other than Lt Col William Fairbairn trained the Shanghai Police to carry their 1911s chamber empty w/ pinned safeties. Would you call Lt Col Fairbairn a short bus rider? Appeal to authority, a logical fallacy. Carrying chamber empty is safety for sloths. In terms of how we think about employing handguns today? Yes, I'd say most of his techniques are counterproductive. |
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Quoted: Well... None other than Lt Col William Fairbairn trained the Shanghai Police to carry their 1911s chamber empty w/ pinned safeties. Would you call Lt Col Fairbairn a short bus rider? Quoted: Well... None other than Lt Col William Fairbairn trained the Shanghai Police to carry their 1911s chamber empty w/ pinned safeties. Would you call Lt Col Fairbairn a short bus rider? Did Fairbairn carry HIS 1911 chamber empty? If so, he should have hopped on the bus with his students. I get what you are trying to say, but its like "If plastic was a good material, John Browning would have used it". W. E. Fairbairn and the Birth of Modern Gunfighting (Part 1) First, not all Shanghai cops used a 1911....only the white guys. To replace an assortment of Webley revolvers and autos, as well as FN autos and other miscellaneous handguns, Fairbairn urged the adoption of the .45 ACP Colt 1911 for European officers, the Colt 1908 for smaller Chinese officers, and the .455 Webley MK VI revolver for Sikh officers, most of whom had served in the British Army and were familiar with this service weapon. I smell unfamiliarity.  ...Based on his street experience with SMP officers forgetting to remove the safety during a gunfight, Fairbairn determined the safeties of the Colt 1911/1911A1 pistols and the Colt 1908 Pocket pistols should be pinned in the “off” position. As SMP officers were trained to carry their pistols without a round in the chamber and to chamber a round as they drew and prepared to engage, the inoperable safety was not deemed a safety issue.... Fairbairn also taught one handed pistol shooting........a technique used today only by old farts in Bullseye, CASS, newbies and gangbangers. He also didn't advocate using the sights, but point shooting. The article has several contradictions, like "The most important element in winning a gunfight according to Fairbairn was speed: the first shot must be fired within one-third second.".........yet carried in Condition Zero.  So, yeah, what he used a century ago and how he trained is really outdated and laughably so. |
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Quoted: Well... None other than Lt Col William Fairbairn trained the Shanghai Police to carry their 1911s chamber empty w/ pinned safeties. Would you call Lt Col Fairbairn a short bus rider? Quoted: Quoted: Empty chamber carry is actually more fucking retarded than taking your pants off and putting them on your head in public. It's wearing a helmet and licking the window on the short bus retarded. Well... None other than Lt Col William Fairbairn trained the Shanghai Police to carry their 1911s chamber empty w/ pinned safeties. Would you call Lt Col Fairbairn a short bus rider? 
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At this point I think I’m done with my P320’s. Too many unknowns and I hate that fact that some of the parts are manufactured in India. Yea, I know they make lots of things over there besides gun parts. I really love my XCompact but the FCU does have some pitting. My Echelon seems to be of much better quality. Not even sure I want to keep my P365 and P365XL. |
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Quoted: Use to carry chamber empty and practiced the israeli draw.... Till I started reading about and watching vids of real world SD gunfights. I would like to think that situational awareness would give me the second to draw and rack the slide, and that nerves wouldn't cause me to fuck up pulling the slide all the way back. But under stress, wouldn't it be easier to just draw the pistol and get it on target? If your choice of pistol, holster and carry method doesn't allow you to safely carry with a round in the chamber you need to learn more and rethink your choices. And stop being retarded. |
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Quoted: I sold both of my P320's and went full Glock. I bought a P226 a few weeks ago and it is 10x the P320. Sent it back for new sights and can’t wait to get it back. I’ve shot DA/SA for decades and the 226 with SRT is the best factory DASA trigger I’ve encountered. When I hold it, I just think “Now this is the pistol of a professional.” I do like my P320 but it’s going to the back of the safe until SIG brings out a DASA kit for it. I had such high hopes for it when I got it in 2016. |
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So, uh, the, uh, this whole P320 thing didn't really end on March 7th, uh, did it? Anyway, like I was sayin, lot a ways a P320 can fire unintentionally. You can drop it, boil it, bake it, shake it. Dey's uh, gamma rays, Fridays, bad days, even fire on good days. There's uh holsterin it, drawin it, foddin it, and sometimes jus lookin at it. That, uh, that's bout it. 
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Quoted: So, uh, the, uh, this whole P320 thing didn't really end on March 7th, uh, did it? Anyway, like I was sayin, lot a ways a P320 can fire unintentionally. You can drop it, boil it, bake it, shake it. Dey's uh, gamma rays, Fridays, bad days, even fire on good days. There's uh holsterin it, drawin it, foddin it, and sometimes jus lookin at it. That, uh, that's bout it. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/203937/Shrimp-2794253.jpg THAT is HILARIOUS! Someone give this man a cigar! |
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Quoted: so i guess I am supposed to ditch my entire heavy investment into the 320 platform that has ran through many many many USPSA seasons???? ughhh  and also lose money, change out my holsters, pouches, etc etc.... frustrating lol or just see if it blows up? I don't think there's an sort of enforced "you're supposed to" to this? It looks like the firearms / 2a / training communities are watching this stuff and coming to their own conclusions. At this point the only people in a real position to reasonably make this right are the current crew at sig. Gut up or get whatever's coming is slowly but inveitably plodding towards them. The longer they wait the worse the beating they're going to take from reality. |
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Quoted: I would like to think that situational awareness would give me the second to draw and rack the slide, and that nerves wouldn't cause me to fuck up pulling the slide all the way back. But under stress, wouldn't it be easier to just draw the pistol and get it on target? If your choice of pistol, holster and carry method doesn't allow you to safely carry with a round in the chamber you need to learn more and rethink your choices. And stop being retarded. Quoted: Quoted: Use to carry chamber empty and practiced the israeli draw.... Till I started reading about and watching vids of real world SD gunfights. I would like to think that situational awareness would give me the second to draw and rack the slide, and that nerves wouldn't cause me to fuck up pulling the slide all the way back. But under stress, wouldn't it be easier to just draw the pistol and get it on target? If your choice of pistol, holster and carry method doesn't allow you to safely carry with a round in the chamber you need to learn more and rethink your choices. And stop being retarded. If anyone has a question about this topic, just put yourself on a shot timer and find out why no one who knows carries with an empty chamber. If you are stuck with a 320, then yeah, go ahead and employ the necessity that cowboys used in the 1800s of carrying on an empty chamber. |
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Quoted: so i guess I am supposed to ditch my entire heavy investment into the 320 platform that has ran through many many many USPSA seasons???? ughhh and also lose money, change out my holsters, pouches, etc etc.... frustrating lol or just see if it blows up? Better safe than sorry
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Quoted: Yes. The most documented case in this thread was a Japanese contract security guard, according to the military investigation on video not screwing w/ his weapon, when it discharged in the holster. Do the punch test on your M17 and see if your striker block works. Quoted: Quoted: I have a former US-issued M17. I bought it when they were released to the public a few years back. I've shot it in a few classes, at the range, etc but now after watching all of this I am hesitant to take it out. Has there been any known cases of Military M17s doing this? Yes. The most documented case in this thread was a Japanese contract security guard, according to the military investigation on video not screwing w/ his weapon, when it discharged in the holster. Do the punch test on your M17 and see if your striker block works. Ill have to look up that test. |
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Quoted: Why would the army surplus brand new pistols? IMO they had issues Sig offered to swap for "good ones" Then sig sold as "military issue" How many M9s were surplused? I haven't seen any personally, not saying they don't exist just I ain't seen them Quoted: Quoted: I have a former US-issued M17. I bought it when they were released to the public a few years back. I've shot it in a few classes, at the range, etc but now after watching all of this I am hesitant to take it out. Has there been any known cases of Military M17s doing this? Why would the army surplus brand new pistols? IMO they had issues Sig offered to swap for "good ones" Then sig sold as "military issue" How many M9s were surplused? I haven't seen any personally, not saying they don't exist just I ain't seen them From what I read they wanted a handful of things changed. Control colors were one of them. Sig also wanted the guns back to inspect. It was easier to credit .gov and issue guns with the updates than it was to update and reissue. True or not, that's what I have read multiple times. |
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Quoted: so i guess I am supposed to ditch my entire heavy investment into the 320 platform that has ran through many many many USPSA seasons???? ughhh and also lose money, change out my holsters, pouches, etc etc.... frustrating lol or just see if it blows up? You don't have to do anything. However,you might find it hard to shoot now that ranges, competitive matches and instructors will more than likely ban them |
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Quoted: If anyone has a question about this topic, just put yourself on a shot timer and find out why no one who knows carries with an empty chamber. If you are stuck with a 320, then yeah, go ahead and employ the necessity that cowboys used in the 1800s of carrying on an empty chamber. I don't think even a hammer-down single action revolver is as slow as an empty chamber semiauto pistol. |
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Quoted: Ill have to look up that test. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I have a former US-issued M17. I bought it when they were released to the public a few years back. I've shot it in a few classes, at the range, etc but now after watching all of this I am hesitant to take it out. Has there been any known cases of Military M17s doing this? Yes. The most documented case in this thread was a Japanese contract security guard, according to the military investigation on video not screwing w/ his weapon, when it discharged in the holster. Do the punch test on your M17 and see if your striker block works. Ill have to look up that test. @TOTHEMAX Look for the long post with all the videos on page 54 of this thread. Look for the video of the dude with a suit on. |
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Quoted: I don't think even a hammer-down single action revolver is as slow as an empty chamber semiauto pistol. Quoted: Quoted: If anyone has a question about this topic, just put yourself on a shot timer and find out why no one who knows carries with an empty chamber. If you are stuck with a 320, then yeah, go ahead and employ the necessity that cowboys used in the 1800s of carrying on an empty chamber. I don't think even a hammer-down single action revolver is as slow as an empty chamber semiauto pistol. I haven't handled one, but don't the old cowboy actions rotate the cylinder as you cock the gun? If so, even the old west style of carrying hammer down on an empty wouldn't be as slow as an empty semiauto. |
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Quoted: I sold both of my P320's and went full Glock. I'm carrying a Glock and hoping like heck that SIG solves this issue. |
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Quoted: I gather you can cock those as you draw. I haven't handled one, but don't the old cowboy actions rotate the cylinder as you cock the gun? If so, even the old west style of carrying hammer down on an empty wouldn't be as slow as an empty semiauto. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: If anyone has a question about this topic, just put yourself on a shot timer and find out why no one who knows carries with an empty chamber. If you are stuck with a 320, then yeah, go ahead and employ the necessity that cowboys used in the 1800s of carrying on an empty chamber. I don't think even a hammer-down single action revolver is as slow as an empty chamber semiauto pistol. I haven't handled one, but don't the old cowboy actions rotate the cylinder as you cock the gun? If so, even the old west style of carrying hammer down on an empty wouldn't be as slow as an empty semiauto. Yes, the cylinder rotates as you cock it. The empty chamber makes it drop safe so if the gun falls on the hammer it can't pop a primer. Lots of single action revolver holsters have exposed trigger guards because they were never carried cocked. I'd have to watch video of some single action shooters, but they may even be cocking the hammer with a finger already in the trigger guard. |
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Quoted: @TOTHEMAX Look for the long post with all the videos on page 54 of this thread. Look for the video of the dude with a suit on. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I have a former US-issued M17. I bought it when they were released to the public a few years back. I've shot it in a few classes, at the range, etc but now after watching all of this I am hesitant to take it out. Has there been any known cases of Military M17s doing this? Yes. The most documented case in this thread was a Japanese contract security guard, according to the military investigation on video not screwing w/ his weapon, when it discharged in the holster. Do the punch test on your M17 and see if your striker block works. Ill have to look up that test. @TOTHEMAX Look for the long post with all the videos on page 54 of this thread. Look for the video of the dude with a suit on. Will do, thank you @FlashMan-7k |
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I watched a guy training another guy on condition 3 draw and fire. He was pretty fast. He was drawing and as he was bringing the gun up and forward to present he would rack the slide and then fire 2 rounds. Id say it took about a second. Thats a very specific situation and definitely doesnt cover a lot of real world scenarios. You could miss the rack. You could have slippery hands from eating chicken wings. Many many variables. |
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Quoted: Thats a very specific situation and definitely doesnt cover a lot of real world scenarios. You could miss the rack. You could have slippery hands from eating chicken wings. Many many variables. I know if I draw I want it to go bang now. Not a half a second from now. NOW. |