[ARCHIVED THREAD] - SIG “ The P320. It ends today.” (Page 57 of 142)
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Quoted: Which is exactly what I suspect happened to one of our SWAT guys a year or two back with his 320 X5. Light strike, light strike, light strike, over and over. Field strip, nothing looks wrong, put back together and it goes bang again. My guess is that the sear was failing to catch the striker, and when he pulled the trigger he was just releasing it off of the safety sear. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I haven't heard anything of people having a dead trigger because the striker released from the sear but the safety caught it. The only way that someone would know about the dead trigger is if they went to pull it. Otherwise, if they just eject the round because they're securing it in a safe etc. they would reset that dead trigger. But yea how many could potentially have had a dead trigger in a holster? We just didn't hear because the striker safety caught it, then it was reset. Why would the trigger be dead? A slipped main sear caught by the safety sear, will release the spring tensioned striker via movement of the safety sear upon trigger pull - and go Bang per normal. Yes, the spring tension is less, but there may well still be enough to light. That, or the operator hears a "click", see's a dimpled primer (which he will), and just mutters "POS White Box", racks the slide, and off he goes. At no time is he going to mentally note that as a gun failure. Primer got hit when he pulled the trigger - gun went click, primer has dimple. Must be bad ammo. Rack slide and continue. Which is exactly what I suspect happened to one of our SWAT guys a year or two back with his 320 X5. Light strike, light strike, light strike, over and over. Field strip, nothing looks wrong, put back together and it goes bang again. My guess is that the sear was failing to catch the striker, and when he pulled the trigger he was just releasing it off of the safety sear. Would be interesting to subject that gun to the punch test... |
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Quoted: On a more serious note, have any of the uncommanded discharges caused a fatality? I think some folks have been hurt, but fortunately no deaths, correct? If that were to happen I could see that being Sig's death knell with all of the information that's out there right now. Not a criminal case but the bar is significantly lower for civil judgement and since it would be product liability instead of something protected by the Lawful Commerce in Arms act I can't see how they could evade it. I would have sworn that there was mention a year or so back of a ground fight with two officers and a suspect, where an officer's holstered pistol discharged into the other officer and killed him. Can't find the case via Google search, but it was brought up in a P320 thread a while back. Anyone else have a lead on this? |
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lol yup, they've all been posted. |
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Quoted: Mine is a box Stock Legion. I haven’t changed a single part in the grip, fcu, and have only replaced the sights. Mine fails all the tests in this thread. Are you alleging that I somehow made it unsafe by…opening the box Quoted: Quoted: It means, just like a Glock, you can make it unsafe if you try hard enough. Sig is exactly the same, minus the making people try hard part. Mine is a box Stock Legion. I haven’t changed a single part in the grip, fcu, and have only replaced the sights. Mine fails all the tests in this thread. Are you alleging that I somehow made it unsafe by…opening the box Seems to be pretty common. |
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Quoted: I would have sworn that there was mention a year or so back of a ground fight with two officers and a suspect, where an officer's holstered pistol discharged into the other officer and killed him. Can't find the case via Google search, but it was brought up in a P320 thread a while back. Anyone else have a lead on this? |
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Quoted: A video posted a few weeks back(it may even be earlier in this thread) there were several officers scuffling with a crazy in a store and a 320 went off in a holster. No one was injured though. The officer had her handcuffs in an odd position and that was what was deemed the cause. Yes, one arm of the handcuffs was out of the hardshell cuff carrier. The department deemed that 4" arm reached 8" away, went down into the holster, pulled the trigger, then came back out of the holster and back to hanging partially out of the cuff carrier. But now that department is replacing their 320s. |
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Quoted: Mine is a box Stock Legion. I haven’t changed a single part in the grip, fcu, and have only replaced the sights. Mine fails all the tests in this thread. Are you alleging that I somehow made it unsafe by…opening the box I think he's sarcastically saying Sig made it unsafe by putting it in the box. 
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Quoted: Which is exactly what I suspect happened to one of our SWAT guys a year or two back with his 320 X5. Light strike, light strike, light strike, over and over. Field strip, nothing looks wrong, put back together and it goes bang again. My guess is that the sear was failing to catch the striker, and when he pulled the trigger he was just releasing it off of the safety sear. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I haven't heard anything of people having a dead trigger because the striker released from the sear but the safety caught it. The only way that someone would know about the dead trigger is if they went to pull it. Otherwise, if they just eject the round because they're securing it in a safe etc. they would reset that dead trigger. But yea how many could potentially have had a dead trigger in a holster? We just didn't hear because the striker safety caught it, then it was reset. Why would the trigger be dead? A slipped main sear caught by the safety sear, will release the spring tensioned striker via movement of the safety sear upon trigger pull - and go Bang per normal. Yes, the spring tension is less, but there may well still be enough to light. That, or the operator hears a "click", see's a dimpled primer (which he will), and just mutters "POS White Box", racks the slide, and off he goes. At no time is he going to mentally note that as a gun failure. Primer got hit when he pulled the trigger - gun went click, primer has dimple. Must be bad ammo. Rack slide and continue. Which is exactly what I suspect happened to one of our SWAT guys a year or two back with his 320 X5. Light strike, light strike, light strike, over and over. Field strip, nothing looks wrong, put back together and it goes bang again. My guess is that the sear was failing to catch the striker, and when he pulled the trigger he was just releasing it off of the safety sear. Note how that mechanical failure "wasn't repeatable " upon disassembly and reassemble. The fixation on that metric is misplaced - as you saw. Thanks for the reply. |
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Quoted: Note how that mechanical failure "wasn't repeatable " upon disassembly and reassemble. The fixation on that metric is misplaced - as you saw. Thanks for the reply. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I haven't heard anything of people having a dead trigger because the striker released from the sear but the safety caught it. The only way that someone would know about the dead trigger is if they went to pull it. Otherwise, if they just eject the round because they're securing it in a safe etc. they would reset that dead trigger. But yea how many could potentially have had a dead trigger in a holster? We just didn't hear because the striker safety caught it, then it was reset. Why would the trigger be dead? A slipped main sear caught by the safety sear, will release the spring tensioned striker via movement of the safety sear upon trigger pull - and go Bang per normal. Yes, the spring tension is less, but there may well still be enough to light. That, or the operator hears a "click", see's a dimpled primer (which he will), and just mutters "POS White Box", racks the slide, and off he goes. At no time is he going to mentally note that as a gun failure. Primer got hit when he pulled the trigger - gun went click, primer has dimple. Must be bad ammo. Rack slide and continue. Which is exactly what I suspect happened to one of our SWAT guys a year or two back with his 320 X5. Light strike, light strike, light strike, over and over. Field strip, nothing looks wrong, put back together and it goes bang again. My guess is that the sear was failing to catch the striker, and when he pulled the trigger he was just releasing it off of the safety sear. Note how that mechanical failure "wasn't repeatable " upon disassembly and reassemble. The fixation on that metric is misplaced - as you saw. Thanks for the reply. I don’t have a P320 and haven’t handled one in years. I seem to recall them advertising not needing to pull the trigger to disassemble. Is there anything about the field strip and reassembly that can be “almost right” in that outward appearances don’t reveal anything, but just the movement of the slide onto the frame *just right* has something pushed out of alignment? Or maybe some issue with whatever mechanism is allowing it to be disassembled without a trigger pull? Edit: I’m sure we’ve all done something similar with a recoil spring. Put it onto the barrel a bit carelessly and it’s slightly off center, then when putting it back on the frame the guide rod starts poking out too early because it caught on the frame further forward than intended. Obviously, it’s quick to catch and correct, but maybe something similar is going on with the P320. It can be assembled “wrong”, but almost right, and then can’t be repeated later. |
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Quoted: Yes, one arm of the handcuffs was out of the hardshell cuff carrier. The department deemed that 4" arm reached 8" away, went down into the holster, pulled the trigger, then came back out of the holster and back to hanging partially out of the cuff carrier. But now that department is replacing their 320s. Do you have a link to that? I've heard of the online Sig fanboy speculation, but this is the first I've heard of the department coming to that conclusion. |
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Quoted: Do you have a link to that? I've heard of the online Sig fanboy speculation, but this is the first I've heard of the department coming to that conclusion. Quoted: Quoted: Yes, one arm of the handcuffs was out of the hardshell cuff carrier. The department deemed that 4" arm reached 8" away, went down into the holster, pulled the trigger, then came back out of the holster and back to hanging partially out of the cuff carrier. But now that department is replacing their 320s. Do you have a link to that? I've heard of the online Sig fanboy speculation, but this is the first I've heard of the department coming to that conclusion. @DogtownTom  Local departments oppose Washington police academy's handgun ban |
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Quoted: So I've been through all of this thread and watched all the videos. Knowing there is no way to fix their flawed design is there a company that makes legit properly fitted replacement parts? Like Wilson combat bullet proof or something of the like. |
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Quoted: www.amazon.com/dp/0307719936 obviously nobody has access to the P&L, but it talks about the high margin and low-cost. We can nitpick, but the general aspect is there. Go and read it if you want to be actually informed about Glock. It's also a playbook on gaming and shenanigans on how to win .gov contracts - which SIG read, followed, and beat Glock at. |
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Quoted: Yea might get a cheap M18 like yours for the collection. When they hit $300 might be time to buy.  Quoted: Quoted: Might be time for me to get an m17 at a discount. NOT as a serious piece but just 'cause I had to carry one as the SOG for 24 hours, once. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/51435/IMG_9346_JPG-3517184.JPG Please note I kept it unloaded for safety When they hit $300 might be time to buy. I wouldn't buy at a single Ben Franklin. |
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Quoted: I’m on the side where the holsters are more suspect. All these incidents, and the variety of holster makes/models are the greatest variable. Kydex pressed into the trigger well for retention purposes is what I think the main culprit is. Additionally, holsters pressed deep into the trigger well for curve triggers and not straight triggers adds an element. This is where I give the Glock “dingus” credit You have no idea how many cops I have watched modify a holster with a heat gun to avoid buying a new holster when they switched guns. It's not the holsters.  |
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I don’t know how new this information is or if anyone’s keeping a running list, but Mesa Police no longer allows 320s on their range. https://www.mesaaz.gov/Public-Safety/Mesa-Police/Services |
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Quoted: I wouldn't buy at a single Ben Franklin. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Might be time for me to get an m17 at a discount. NOT as a serious piece but just 'cause I had to carry one as the SOG for 24 hours, once. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/51435/IMG_9346_JPG-3517184.JPG Please note I kept it unloaded for safety When they hit $300 might be time to buy. I wouldn't buy at a single Ben Franklin. Yeah, just more clutter in the safe, waiting for a solution that might not improve the product, when I don't even shoot my 1911s and Glocks enough. |
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Quoted: Mine is a box Stock Legion. I haven’t changed a single part in the grip, fcu, and have only replaced the sights. Mine fails all the tests in this thread. Are you alleging that I somehow made it unsafe by…opening the box Sort of? I mean if it stayed in the box and never got loaded, it would definitely be safer. In short no, I was simply pointing out that some have serious flaws from the factory. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Yes, one arm of the handcuffs was out of the hardshell cuff carrier. The department deemed that 4" arm reached 8" away, went down into the holster, pulled the trigger, then came back out of the holster and back to hanging partially out of the cuff carrier. But now that department is replacing their 320s. Do you have a link to that? I've heard of the online Sig fanboy speculation, but this is the first I've heard of the department coming to that conclusion. @DogtownTom  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFzoLi3LcToI've seen that video and narration by the TV reporter, but I've not seen any Kitsap Sheriffs Department report on the cause of the ND. I question whether the investigative report matches the TV station narrative. If it does, those investigators must be embarrassed that Kitsap County is replacing their 320's. It is quite a stretch to explain that ND being caused by the handcuff entering the trigger guard. Then again the actual report may have just said it was a possibility. |
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Quoted: This is a perfect opportunity for someone reputable to come out with CNC machined steel FCU parts (sear etc.) to replace the MIM Indian parts. We have no reason to think that would solve the problem, and anyone who makes such parts would be exposing themselves to significant liability. NOBODY should be making P320 parts or accessories that influence the function of the gun right now. |
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Quoted: We have no reason to think that would solve the problem, and anyone who makes such parts would be exposing themselves to significant liability. NOBODY should be making P320 parts or accessories that influence the function of the gun right now. Attached File |
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Quoted: We have no reason to think that would solve the problem, and anyone who makes such parts would be exposing themselves to significant liability. NOBODY should be making P320 parts or accessories that influence the function of the gun right now. Quoted: Quoted: This is a perfect opportunity for someone reputable to come out with CNC machined steel FCU parts (sear etc.) to replace the MIM Indian parts. We have no reason to think that would solve the problem, and anyone who makes such parts would be exposing themselves to significant liability. NOBODY should be making P320 parts or accessories that influence the function of the gun right now. Essentially you’d need a new FCU with a new slide design and at that point, why wouldn’t you just make and sell your own product? The only thing you’d be reusing would the polymer grip, literally the cheapest, most throwaway part of the gun. I believe they call that solution the Echelon or the RXM. 
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Quoted: I've seen that video and narration by the TV reporter, but I've not seen any Kitsap Sheriffs Department report on the cause of the ND. I question whether the investigative report matches the TV station narrative. If it does, those investigators must be embarrassed that Kitsap County is replacing their 320's. It is quite a stretch to explain that ND being caused by the handcuff entering the trigger guard. Then again the actual report may have just said it was a possibility. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Yes, one arm of the handcuffs was out of the hardshell cuff carrier. The department deemed that 4" arm reached 8" away, went down into the holster, pulled the trigger, then came back out of the holster and back to hanging partially out of the cuff carrier. But now that department is replacing their 320s. Do you have a link to that? I've heard of the online Sig fanboy speculation, but this is the first I've heard of the department coming to that conclusion. @DogtownTom https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qFzoLi3LcToI've seen that video and narration by the TV reporter, but I've not seen any Kitsap Sheriffs Department report on the cause of the ND. I question whether the investigative report matches the TV station narrative. If it does, those investigators must be embarrassed that Kitsap County is replacing their 320's. It is quite a stretch to explain that ND being caused by the handcuff entering the trigger guard. Then again the actual report may have just said it was a possibility. Here a pic from the BWC of another officer, after the discharge. Attached File |
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Texas doing Texas things. :facepalm: https://www.sigsauer.com/blog/sig-m17-with-sig-romeo-m17-red-dot-optic-selected-as-the-official-sidearm-of-the-texas-department-of-public-safety |
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ND=negligent discharge. By definition, it is user error, exclusive of mechanical failure. If there is any chance the gun is at fault, it is an accidental discharge (AD), or unintentional discharge, as umbrellas. If the gun is definitely at fault, then uncommanded discharge might be appropriate. |
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Quoted: This is a perfect opportunity for someone reputable to come out with CNC machined steel FCU parts (sear etc.) to replace the MIM Indian parts. Maybe. I can't tell for sure if the issue is spring, metallurgy, or just tolerances. I suspect the place to start would be to beef up the springs; but I don't actually know that. I think the design itself has too small of engagement parts not ideally aligned, combined with weak springs and Indian MIM. If you're committed to sticking with it, first place I'd start is find some stronger aftermarket springs for the safety sear and trigger/fire-sear. Not intimately familiar so not sure how many springs that is and how accessible. I was thinking an entire 3'd party slide might work, but honestly the FCU (frame) unit levers are pretty delicate small and weak looking to my eye; and that's the serial numbered part. So I'm not sure an entire new slide will actually fix it. Me? I'd just dump it and replace it. In the scheme of things, it's not really that much money. I personally rank Walther P99 as my fave, (but the spin-offs of it are great too; they just don't have the DA option]) > Smith and Wesson MP > Glock (yea, fighting words) > HK VP9 (good gun, just big and $$) > Springfield > Dagger > random polymer gun of the day (Canik et al) > S&W Smegma (I can't believe they still make that embarrassment), with P320 isn't on the list since it is unacceptable. |
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Quoted: Get the 365 version Quoted: Quoted: I'm glad I got rid of all my 320 stuff when I did. I do miss my Flux but oh well. Get the 365 version Nope. No more Sig stuff for me unless I can find a 228 or 230/232. I'm more than happy with my Glocks and will just stick with them and sit tight to see what anyone does for the RXM FCU. |
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Quoted: Texas doing Texas things. :facepalm: https://www.sigsauer.com/blog/sig-m17-with-sig-romeo-m17-red-dot-optic-selected-as-the-official-sidearm-of-the-texas-department-of-public-safety So.....DPS dumped the P320 that they adopted in 2018? I wonder why?  |
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Quoted: Maybe. I can't tell for sure if the issue is spring, metallurgy, or just tolerances. I suspect the place to start would be to beef up the springs; but I don't actually know that. I think the design itself has too small of engagement parts not ideally aligned, combined with weak springs and Indian MIM. If you're committed to sticking with it, first place I'd start is find some stronger aftermarket springs for the safety sear and trigger/fire-sear. Not intimately familiar so not sure how many springs that is and how accessible. I was thinking an entire 3'd party slide might work, but honestly the FCU (frame) unit levers are pretty delicate small and weak looking to my eye; and that's the serial numbered part. So I'm not sure an entire new slide will actually fix it. Me? I'd just dump it and replace it. In the scheme of things, it's not really that much money. I personally rank Walther P99 as my fave, (but the spin-offs of it are great too; they just don't have the DA option]) > Smith and Wesson MP > Glock (yea, fighting words) > HK VP9 (good gun, just big and $$) > Springfield > Dagger > random polymer gun of the day (Canik et al) > S&W Smegma (I can't believe they still make that embarrassment), with P320 isn't on the list since it is unacceptable. We're getting so many mullti-page 320 threads everything's starting to blend together, but didn't somebody post that they sent their 320 in for the 2017 upgrade and SIG has actually removed a spring from the sear as part of the upgrade? |
 Quoted: P320 is a dead platform at this point. Quoted: P320 is a dead platform at this point. Unfortunately I think you are correct. The "banned from this range" list will snowball along with the "banned from this trainer's courses." That will increase the public's attention to the potential safety issues and cause them to rethink the P320. Texas has the 30-06 sign, ranges will start putting up P-320 signs. I like mine and shoot it well. At this point I hope SIG comes out with a hammer fired conversion even if it's DAO like the P250. The more I shoot my police trade S&W 5946 the more I fall in love with it and I do shoot it VERY well so revolver like triggers don't bother me in the least. Quoted: didn't somebody post that they sent their 320 in for the 2017 upgrade and SIG has actually removed a spring from the sear as part of the upgrade? I heard something similar but it was that SIG no longer deems the striker safety return spring necessary. That has got to be the dumbest thing about this while debacle I've read. Without the spring it just makes the striker safety gravity selected. Hold gun upside down, not safe. Right side up, safe if clean. In holster, 50-50. Yeah, dumb. I seriously doubt SIG really thinks this. The striker assembly needs BOTH springs to satisfy the original design intent. |
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Quoted: I personally rank Walther P99 as my fave, (but the spin-offs of it are great too; they just don't have the DA option]) > Smith and Wesson MP > Glock (yea, fighting words) > HK VP9 (good gun, just big and $$) > Springfield > Dagger > random polymer gun of the day (Canik et al) > S&W Smegma (I can't believe they still make that embarrassment), with P320 isn't on the list since it is unacceptable. Quoted: Nope. No more Sig stuff for me unless I can find a 228 or 230/232. I'm more than happy with my Glocks and will just stick with them and sit tight to see what anyone does for the RXM FCU. Took me a long time to find my 232. |
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To those considering switching, don't reward Sig by going to the 365. The 320 isn't their first case of treating customers like shit. For years, they've beta tested their products on buyers instead of doing so internally, abandoned products at the drop of a hat thereby leaving buyers in the lurch, etc. They are a shit company and will inevitably screw you again. That's just Ron Cohen Sig, and always will be as long as he is there (and maybe even after he's gone). I'm not even advocating for a specific other brand. I'm not a fanboy and just want something that works. There are plenty of companies that make pistols that do and aren't hot Chinatown garbage like Sig. Please go patronize them instead. |
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Quoted: To those considering switching, don't reward Sig by going to the 365. The 320 isn't their first case of treating customers like shit. For years, they've beta tested their products on buyers instead of doing so internally, abandoned products at the drop of a hat thereby leaving buyers in the lurch, etc. They are a shit company and will inevitably screw you again. That's just Ron Cohen Sig, and always will be as long as he is there (and maybe even after he's gone). I'm not even advocating for a specific other brand. I'm not a fanboy and just want something that works. There are plenty of companies that make pistols that do and aren't hot Chinatown garbage like Sig. Please go patronize them instead. Attached File 556R Gen 2  A beautiful wall-hanger at this point |
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Quoted: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/35747/Sig_556R_JPG-3519853.JPG 556R Gen 2 A beautiful wall-hanger at this point Damn. What a beautiful gun, but yeah, also a dead platform. The 556 is such a good example of Sig's shitshow product development process. 
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Quoted: https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/35747/Sig_556R_JPG-3519853.JPG 556R Gen 2 A beautiful wall-hanger at this point And why is it a Gen 2? Because, among other awesome design choices, they used a mag well made out of aluminum for steel AK mags. |
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Quoted: Texas doing Texas things. :facepalm: https://www.sigsauer.com/blog/sig-m17-with-sig-romeo-m17-red-dot-optic-selected-as-the-official-sidearm-of-the-texas-department-of-public-safety Meh... Someone there lives and breathes SIG. That said I have seen some of their "special operations", or whatever they call them, with M&Ps in the last year at GT Distributors in both Dallas and P-ville.. It's funny, that used to be the case with Dallas PD. Guess what happened that caused DPD to drop not just the 320 but SIG altogether... |