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Quoted: My house has a code approved internal switch that turns off one side of the panel while it is energized by the generator.  It is a fancy name for one breaker being turned off and one being turned on.. What is the difference between this and turning off the main breaker.  All the linemen downstream are being protected by a breaker being thrown in the homeowners panel.  Seems the same to me.  This is how Palm Beach county Fl code has it, all done by an electrician and approved by the building dept.

Highlighted are the differences, as opposed to an amateur hacking it himself.  The amateur job might work, and it might not. And even if it is done right, the person making the changeovers may or may not be the one that knows how to do it right.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I would do a big post on the good, the bad, and the ugly way to hook up backup power systems....  but I have a feeling I would take so much flak from people wanting to argue every point that its not worth it. If you are indeed a qualified and experienced electrician I would think the post you mention would be worthwhile.  It would be nice to know the correct way to wire in a secondary power source to the house. Make it a separate thread.

But if he makes it a separate thread we miss the challenge of diging through a 10 page thread to find the meat and REAL way to do it right.

Sub,

I’ll tell you why these threads concern me;  somewhere, somehow, someone will fuck up and get hurt DUE TO INEXPERIENCE.

It’s not that electrical work is rocket science - it isn‘t.

But an experienced person (IP) may just not recognize a situation for what it is, and get hurt.

And what about stress for an inexperienced person?

Do you think when the IP goes to turn off the main that he’ll have good light, the weather will be a perfect sunny 70 degrees, the kids won’t be screaming, the wife won’t be nagging, the in-laws won’t be bitching, and the neighbors won’t be yelling?

Life isn’t that easy.

And experienced folks fuck up too.

I’m gonna give you all the facts here as I was told them by the guy it happened to, our Safety guy, and the HMFTBIC from the shop.

I freely admit my friend fucked up.  He also freely admits it.

His GF is a complete asshole - I mean the kind of guy that many of you have yet to meet.  About 5 years ago, I quit our company because of him.  Although I was talked out of quitting as I was driving home…

This GF had my friend so rattled, had him in such a hurry to complete the task, that he (my friend) ignored many safety requirements.

He was reaching inside a 480 panel, and touched a lockring to the bus.

On his left hand it blew off 1 finger nail, and resulted in 2nd degree burns to 3 fingers.  It barely burned his face (semi-red for 4 days).

This happened Wed last week.  Monday (4 days ago) our shop fired him for ignoring a boatload of safety items.  And he deserved to get fired.  But our company will pay all of his Work Comp.  But he’ll find employment elsewhere when WC releases him.

He was lucky as a mofo.

Why am I telling you this?

Because we work with this crap all day, and mistakes are made.

Folks that rarely work with this do not understand ALL the electrical implications.  Then add stress resulting with the loss of power, screaming kids…

This is why I don’t participate in these threads - I don’t want to be responsible.

And for the love of God don’t bring guns into this as a comparison.  About the only valid comparison that can be made is comparing a person who shoots a gun twice a year to a guy who does electrical work twice a year.

Most of us here shoot almost every weekend.

Some of us work electrical work everyday.

How many do both?

Folks…be safe.

Quoted: Quoted: My house has a code approved internal switch that turns off one side of the panel while it is energized by the generator.  It is a fancy name for one breaker being turned off and one being turned on.. What is the difference between this and turning off the main breaker.  All the linemen downstream are being protected by a breaker being thrown in the homeowners panel.  Seems the same to me.  This is how Palm Beach county Fl code has it, all done by an electrician and approved by the building dept. Highlighted are the differences, as opposed to an amateur hacking it himself.  The amateur job might work, and it might not. And even if it is done right, the person making the changeovers may or may not be the one that knows how to do it right.

In my previous posts I explained that I no longer use this system.  In my latest post I point out that both methods rely on throwing one large breaker to shut off flow to outside.  Essentially the same.  One cost thousands and one cost $100.

Quoted: Quoted: I run my genset through my dryer 220 outlet.  Prior to doing so, I pull the meter off the outside of the house because I don't have transfer switch.  Once pulled, it is IMPOSSIBLE for power to run back to the pole. Super cheap and super easy and 100% foolproof. You're working too hard. Just flip your main breaker off. If you do, it's impossible for power to run back to the pole. You've severed the one and only connection between your panel and the grid.

What about the neutral?

Grove

I hear a lot of people in this thread and others saying, "I don't want to be party to giving someone advice on electrical hoookups without a transfer switch...etc. for fear that they may do something stupid and get hurt"

But, all of us, including me, tell folk how to build rifles that have no "breakers" and can kill people at a distance, not standing in front an electrical panel.

I'm not saying that a transfer switch is not good.

Just that, when I"m in survival mode, my senses are better than when in "casual" day to day mode, as when I'm at the range.

I always had a saying when I programmed and it applies here:

"I can make it foolproof, but I can't make it DAMN FOOL proof"

Quoted: I hear a lot of people in this thread and others saying, "I don't want to be party to giving someone advice on electrical hoookups without a transfer switch...etc. for fear that they may do something stupid and get hurt" Again, you can't viably compare gun safety to electrical safety. Unless I guess you use folks who only touch their guns twice a year. But, all of us, including me, tell folk how to build rifles that have no "breakers" and can kill people at a distance, not standing in front an electrical panel. I'm not saying that a transfer switch is not good. Just that, when I"m in survival mode, my senses are better than when in "casual" day to day mode, as when I'm at the range. I always had a saying when I programmed and it applies here: "I can make it foolproof, but I can't make it DAMN FOOL proof"

I understand what you're saying, but I don't agree with the analogy.

You can't compare gun owners to folks doing electrical work, unless both only touch guns/electrical components twice a year.

Historical:

I have a ton of mil med experience - and I didn't work in a hospital.  A long-time friend of mine once posted here, and he had almost the same experience.

There was a thread going about suturing.  I scanned a diagram/posted some thoughts, and so did he.

Some one here with zero suturing experience (at least he said he did) decided to follow my friend's advice, and sutured up a (IIRC) dog.

Wound got infected, vet bills ensued, etc.

The untrained-suturer decided it was all my friend's fault, and threatened to sue.

It got ugly via IM, and I realized the potential liability.

As in electrical work, (at least most places here in TX), you need a contractor's lic, a Master's lic, etc to do electrical work.

Do those requirements extend to giving advice over the Internet?

I'm not gonna take those chances.

And for the record, while in the mil I didn't work as an electrician - but I was eligible to take the Journeyman's test before I joined.

I have made some of the most bass ackward temporary electrical fixes you have ever seen while deployed to shitholes around the planet.  

Necessity is the mother of invention.

But the first time a homeowner or lineman gets fried, I certainly don't want to be the guy on the Internet that told them how to make an installation/repair/temporary fix.

ETA:

Sorry for the typos, etc.

I run out the door.l

Quoted: I hear a lot of people in this thread and others saying, "I don't want to be party to giving someone advice on electrical hoookups without a transfer switch...etc. for fear that they may do something stupid and get hurt" But, all of us, including me, tell folk how to build rifles that have no "breakers" and can kill people at a distance, not standing in front an electrical panel. I'm not saying that a transfer switch is not good. Just that, when I"m in survival mode, my senses are better than when in "casual" day to day mode, as when I'm at the range. I always had a saying when I programmed and it applies here: "I can make it foolproof, but I can't make it DAMN FOOL proof"

Try calling up a firearm manufacturer and asking them what part do I stone to make the trigger smoother?  Try getting the manufacturer to tell you how to get a 6 OZ trigger pull.  Ask them to crown a rifle barrel for you that you cut off at 14 inches.

Its all about liability from a trained profesional.  

A hack (and I dont mean hack as a bad thing, just an untrained do-it-yourselfer) can say anything they want because they are not trained and licensed.

Quoted: Quoted: I hear a lot of people in this thread and others saying, "I don't want to be party to giving someone advice on electrical hoookups without a transfer switch...etc. for fear that they may do something stupid and get hurt" But, all of us, including me, tell folk how to build rifles that have no "breakers" and can kill people at a distance, not standing in front an electrical panel. I'm not saying that a transfer switch is not good. Just that, when I"m in survival mode, my senses are better than when in "casual" day to day mode, as when I'm at the range. I always had a saying when I programmed and it applies here: "I can make it foolproof, but I can't make it DAMN FOOL proof" Try calling up a firearm manufacturer and asking them what part do I stone to make the trigger smoother?  Try getting the manufacturer to tell you how to get a 6 OZ trigger pull.  Ask them to crown a rifle barrel for you that you cut off at 14 inches. Its all about liability from a trained profesional.   A hack (and I dont mean hack as a bad thing, just an untrained do-it-yourselfer) can say anything they want because they are not trained and licensed.

For the record, again. A licensed electrician did my hookup.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I hear a lot of people in this thread and others saying, "I don't want to be party to giving someone advice on electrical hoookups without a transfer switch...etc. for fear that they may do something stupid and get hurt" But, all of us, including me, tell folk how to build rifles that have no "breakers" and can kill people at a distance, not standing in front an electrical panel. I'm not saying that a transfer switch is not good. Just that, when I"m in survival mode, my senses are better than when in "casual" day to day mode, as when I'm at the range. I always had a saying when I programmed and it applies here: "I can make it foolproof, but I can't make it DAMN FOOL proof" Try calling up a firearm manufacturer and asking them what part do I stone to make the trigger smoother?  Try getting the manufacturer to tell you how to get a 6 OZ trigger pull.  Ask them to crown a rifle barrel for you that you cut off at 14 inches. Its all about liability from a trained profesional.   A hack (and I dont mean hack as a bad thing, just an untrained do-it-yourselfer) can say anything they want because they are not trained and licensed. For the record, again. A licensed electrician did my hookup.

The last time this was discussed you said he was a friend and I asked if he billed you for it and you never answered.  The installation violates the NEC.  I bet you didnt get billed for it because he didnt want to assume liability.  Now IF there was to be a problem its on you and your insurance company will not cover you because it cannot be proved that a licensed electrician did the work.  

The method works...  altho I still think you could have issues with the parallel ground...  but it is not legal and not entirely safe.

It may never cause a problem.... but if it does you will be the one dangling, not your electrician friend!

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I hear a lot of people in this thread and others saying, "I don't want to be party to giving someone advice on electrical hoookups without a transfer switch...etc. for fear that they may do something stupid and get hurt" But, all of us, including me, tell folk how to build rifles that have no "breakers" and can kill people at a distance, not standing in front an electrical panel. I'm not saying that a transfer switch is not good. Just that, when I"m in survival mode, my senses are better than when in "casual" day to day mode, as when I'm at the range. I always had a saying when I programmed and it applies here: "I can make it foolproof, but I can't make it DAMN FOOL proof" Try calling up a firearm manufacturer and asking them what part do I stone to make the trigger smoother?  Try getting the manufacturer to tell you how to get a 6 OZ trigger pull.  Ask them to crown a rifle barrel for you that you cut off at 14 inches. Its all about liability from a trained profesional.   A hack (and I dont mean hack as a bad thing, just an untrained do-it-yourselfer) can say anything they want because they are not trained and licensed. For the record, again. A licensed electrician did my hookup. The last time this was discussed you said he was a friend and I asked if he billed you for it and you never answered.  The installation violates the NEC.  I bet you didnt get billed for it because he didnt want to assume liability.  Now IF there was to be a problem its on you and your insurance company will not cover you because it cannot be proved that a licensed electrician did the work.   The method works...  altho I still think you could have issues with the parallel ground...  but it is not legal and not entirely safe. It may never cause a problem.... but if it does you will be the one dangling, not your electrician friend!

I think you have me confused on the parallel ground stuff.

Here's all he did and I did pay him for the parts and a couple of beers after the work.

Installed a dual 60watt breaker on my electrical breaker box attached to a pig tail on a large wire, don't know the guage, but it's about 3/4 inch. Also he created a long wire to connect to the pigtail and get the generator outside of garage to run to avoid the Carbon Monoxide issue.

I throw the main and all the breakers in the house. Plug the generator into the pigtail, start the generator, throw the generator switch and then the breakers that I want to power.

It worked without a hitch for 90 hours after Ike.

I didn't have to unhook and check to see if the power was back on as I had a wire down in my front acreage so it was obvious.

However, I shut down the generator to refuel (safety) and each day when I made a daily excursion (except for Saturday).

The lineman looked at my hookup when he walked into the garage, and saw it and said "As long as the main is thrown, we're cool"

I dunno if it's within the code, and living out in the country where I do, I doubt if I'll get inspected any time soon.

I have labeled the main and gen breakers  like this:  [Power CO < > Gen]  and [GEN < > Power Co]

Quoted: [snip] Just that, when I"m in survival mode, my senses are better than when in "casual" day to day mode, as when I'm at the range. I[snip]

I disagree.  When I'm stressed and in "survival mode," I want to make things as easy and foolproof as possible because I believe that I'm more likely to make a mistake when under stress.  Also, in a true "survival" situation, the consequences of a mistake are likely to be more serious.  

COZ-  Maybe I do have the paralle ground thing confused.  THe discussion I remember was about the neutral and ground bonded at both the generator and the main panel.

If you were my best friend, fairly smart, and had no money I might help you hook up your generator the same way all the while explaining the dangers and telling you to start saving for that transfer switch.

It does not matter if you are getting inspected or not...  it is a code violation.  Call up your insurance company and see ask them if they will aprove of that method....  the world is driven by insurance companies and they will grasp at anything to get out of settling a suit.

I cant make you see the error of your ways.... all I can hope is some other people will see it and not do it that way.

Your method works, it might even work forever for you, but it is also more likely to lead to problems than doing it the correct way.  Some of those problems could be fairly severe.  Thats all I can say.

Which one is the better generator:

Guardian 14kW Dual Fuel (LP/NG)

Kohler 12kW Dual Fuel (LP/NG)

Quoted: COZ-  Maybe I do have the paralle ground thing confused.  THe discussion I remember was about the neutral and ground bonded at both the generator and the main panel. If you were my best friend, fairly smart, and had no money I might help you hook up your generator the same way all the while explaining the dangers and telling you to start saving for that transfer switch. It does not matter if you are getting inspected or not...  it is a code violation.  Call up your insurance company and see ask them if they will aprove of that method....  the world is driven by insurance companies and they will grasp at anything to get out of settling a suit. I cant make you see the error of your ways.... all I can hope is some other people will see it and not do it that way. Your method works, it might even work forever for you, but it is also more likely to lead to problems than doing it the correct way.  Some of those problems could be fairly severe.  Thats all I can say.

I don't think I'll go out of my way to have my insurance cancelled just yet.

I may not have to use it for another 10 years, so I'll leave it be for now. My buddy spent Saturday and Sunday working on four different transfer switches that failed for friends. He came by yesterday and told me about it. Each switch had been done by a licensed electrician but all had problems. I think he mentioned incorrect grounding or something. He was enjoying watching my neighbor standing on a step ladder with a chainsaw. I had my phone in my hand the whole time with my finger over the "9" cause this guy was stretching out with about a 21" chainsaw....

Talk about dangerous...but he didn't get hurt, thank goodness.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Blackhawkhunter told everyone in the survival forums that I would die and my house would burn, but it has not happened because I'm not a fumbling idiot who does not understand the way it works. . IIRC that conversation was about separating grounds and neutrals correctly and I said it possible for it to happen.  I also said you can fry electronics and overheat conductors which, over time, can degrade insulation and lead to fires. Also, IIRC, I quoted an excerpt from Mike Holts code interpretation and everyone shut up and the thread died right off. I'm sorry for calling you out. I actually had that thread deleted as every other post told me I was a fucking idiot and I'd die if I ever used my hookup etc. I used it for 90 hours. All was fine.

How many people would it take to convince you that you just might not be doing it right?  You shut a thread down because you didnt like the answers?  

I realize this is a non-technical forum, but......

Quoted: Quoted: I was also an electrician.  Is this illegal?  Just curious.  I'm about to buy a transfer switch because I'm tired of the extension cords.  I'd like to have something fool-proof set up for when it's just my wife or mom around so they can do it themselves.   Did you just call you wife or mom a fool?

Did you?

Quoted: [ I don't think I'll go out of my way to have my insurance cancelled just yet. I may not have to use it for another 10 years, so I'll leave it be for now. My buddy spent Saturday and Sunday working on four different transfer switches that failed for friends. He came by yesterday and told me about it. Each switch had been done by a licensed electrician but all had problems. I think he mentioned incorrect grounding or something. He was enjoying watching my neighbor standing on a step ladder with a chainsaw. I had my phone in my hand the whole time with my finger over the "9" cause this guy was stretching out with about a 21" chainsaw.... Talk about dangerous...but he didn't get hurt, thank goodness.

Thats just it.... they will gladly take your premiums... but when the investigator comes out and finds whatever happened because of a non code compliant install they will ask what electrician did it and when you tell them that you did it yourself there is a good chance you wont be covered!

I have worked alongside fire inspectors and insurance adjusters to provide temp heat and lights or check for safety after fires and floods and it is amazing what those guys can find and how the talk shifts to blame and liability.

Your neighbor probably felt safe with his ladder and chain saw...  just like you do with your generator!!!!  

But I would have hated to watch his antics also!!!!

Quoted: Quoted: [ I don't think I'll go out of my way to have my insurance cancelled just yet. I may not have to use it for another 10 years, so I'll leave it be for now. My buddy spent Saturday and Sunday working on four different transfer switches that failed for friends. He came by yesterday and told me about it. Each switch had been done by a licensed electrician but all had problems. I think he mentioned incorrect grounding or something. He was enjoying watching my neighbor standing on a step ladder with a chainsaw. I had my phone in my hand the whole time with my finger over the "9" cause this guy was stretching out with about a 21" chainsaw.... Talk about dangerous...but he didn't get hurt, thank goodness. Thats just it.... they will gladly take your premiums... but when the investigator comes out and finds whatever happened because of a non code compliant install they will ask what electrician did it and when you tell them that you did it yourself there is a good chance you wont be covered! I have worked alongside fire inspectors and insurance adjusters to provide temp heat and lights or check for safety after fires and floods and it is amazing what those guys can find and how the talk shifts to blame and liability. Your neighbor probably felt safe with his ladder and chain saw...  just like you do with your generator!!!!   But I would have hated to watch his antics also!!!!

But it worked and did not cause a fire, I guess I'm confused. I used it for 90 hours and turned it off and on several times.

No fire, no mess, no dead linemen, no sparks, no screwed up electronics in the house, no disasters in regards to electricity.

Why fix something that ain't broke?

How fast will your car/truck go?  My truck starts getting scarey around 100.  I know I can do it, but its not the safest thing to do.  I could get hurt and I am putting others at risk.  And its illegal.  I'd hate to get caught and have to pay the fine!

I wont convince you that you are doing it wrong so forget it!  Good luck and carry on.

Day one and two without power we were tripping over the mess of extention cords running in our house from the generator. I read Subs post and talked to a guy at work about it. He said his generator has been hooked up using Sub's method since the power went off. Also he ran that setup for a month during the last hurricane and he was running two window AC units in his house.

That evening when I got home I did mine and put all the extention cords away. It was like living in a normal house for the next three days until the power came back on. No body got hurt. The house did not burn down.

Quoted: Day one and two without power we were tripping over the mess of extention cords running in our house from the generator. I read Subs post and talked to a guy at work about it. He said his generator has been hooked up using Sub's method since the power went off. Also he ran that setup for a month during the last hurricane and he was running two window AC units in his house. That evening when I got home I did mine and put all the extention cords away. It was like living in a normal house for the next three days until the power came back on. No body got hurt. The house did not burn down.

OH MY GOD! YOU'RE GONNA DIE> oh wait, I mean.....Cool

Quoted: Installed a dual 60watt breaker on my electrical breaker box attached to a pig tail on a large wire, don't know the guage, but it's about 3/4 inch. Also he created a long wire to connect to the pigtail and get the generator outside of garage to run to avoid the Carbon Monoxide issue.

I really hope you mean Amps, a 60 watt breaker with 220 volts on it would be just shy of .3 Amps if I remember right.

Quoted: Subnet, I'm disappointed.  You dropped the big coin building a new garage but then cheaped out on the generator?   I figured you would have built one of these set-ups at a minimum. When plugging your meter back into the panel, be very careful never to install it upside-down.  Doing so will cause it to actually run backwards and you'll be under billed.  Don't ask how I know this.

I loved reading the article about the lister.  But last night it got me thinking.  I guess I "need" a generator about once every 2 dozen years.  I have a fairly high duty rated diesel sitting in the barn - it's called a tractor.  Hell, this might even be an excuse to restore an antique tractor (smaller motor, maybe more efficient).  I would need to do a little reading about how quick it sips at idle - but a PTO generator might a much simpler solution for the once in a seldom I need electrical power for a few days.
baby pto generator

Of course, I assume someone will hack the 53 kW generator in the Chevy volt soon enough once they are out.  A diesel Chevy volt might be interesting...

Quoted: Quoted: Installed a dual 60watt breaker on my electrical breaker box attached to a pig tail on a large wire, don't know the guage, but it's about 3/4 inch. Also he created a long wire to connect to the pigtail and get the generator outside of garage to run to avoid the Carbon Monoxide issue. I really hope you mean Amps, a 60 watt breaker with 220 volts on it would be just shy of .3 Amps if I remember right.

LOL, yep, Amps....doh!

Yesterday they shut our power off again for about three hours to add some jumpers out on the road.

I used my generator hookup again and burnt the house down and was killed along with burning up the entire neighborhood and killing ten linemen...oh wait, I meant it worked fine again.