User Panel
User Panel
User Panel
|
Posted: 4/30/2011 3:12:20 PM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
You know, if you happen to come into posession of your own property you can't be charged with theft of property you own.  To accomplish that I would have to commit house breaking, and I will not do that. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/30/2011 3:13:52 PM EDT
[#2]
Quoted: Quoted: You know, if you happen to come into posession of your own property you can't be charged with theft of property you own. To accomplish that I would have to commit house breaking, and I will not do that. Get him to invite you in.  BTW, I didn't say they wouldn't charge you, just that it wouldn't be for theft. Seriously, an attorney's letter of pending civil action is your first step. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/30/2011 3:14:04 PM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
Quoted:
You know, if you happen to come into posession of your own property you can't be charged with theft of property you own. To accomplish that I would have to commit house breaking, and I will not do that. A very wise decision on your part. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/30/2011 3:21:05 PM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Pretty sure that's theft.  Not theft. It is non criminal. Take him to Court and sue him civilly. Like if you loan someone your car and they do not bring it back. Not auto theft. Civil. Really? You guys don't have rock rentals in Kali anymore? How about rental cars. For some reason the overdue rentals are still reported stolen in Kali. In TX... thats UUMV. Unlawful Use of a Motor Vehicle. Completely different than theft as far as the Tx penal code goes. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/30/2011 3:21:14 PM EDT
[#5]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: You know, if you happen to come into posession of your own property you can't be charged with theft of property you own. To accomplish that I would have to commit house breaking, and I will not do that. A very wise decision on your part. Yup. But it sounds like some social engineering could easily get this squared away. OP (57Strat) doesn't have to be the one to retrieve it, or let himself in the house.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/30/2011 3:23:30 PM EDT
[#6]
Well, the OP's tactic of not wanting to waste time and space on telling GD what the item is has certainly not worked out.
 It's probably some embarrassing items like a bag of gold plated strap-ons, or a severed foot collection... JUST TELL US WHAT IT IS FOR CRYING OUT LOUD! Oh, and DAY 1 |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/30/2011 3:25:18 PM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
Well, the OP's tactic of not wanting to waste time and space on telling GD what the item is has certainly not worked out.
I already said the piece of property is a Russian bride.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/30/2011 3:27:01 PM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Civil. File a lawsuit in civil court. It is both civil and criminal, threaten to hit this fool with both! (trespass to chattels / conversion in civil and embezzlement in criminal) Civil you would sue to get it back / damages and criminal a prosecutor would sue for embezzlement so he doesnt do it again. Doubt a prosecutor would take this case though. A prosecutor? First it has to have an officer file charges. That's not going to happen since the elements of a crime are not met. He gave someone something and the person has not given it back yet. Civil all day long. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/30/2011 3:27:34 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted: Quoted: Well, the OP's tactic of not wanting to waste time and space on telling GD what the item is has certainly not worked out. I already said the piece of property is a Russian bride. $20,000 ? You paid way too much! |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/30/2011 3:28:24 PM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Well, the OP's tactic of not wanting to waste time and space on telling GD what the item is has certainly not worked out.
I already said the piece of property is a Russian bride. $20,000 ? You paid way too much!
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/30/2011 3:36:35 PM EDT
[#11]
Unauthorized use of a movable in my state. By statute, that is, as there are plenty of folks who argue that that should purely be a civil matter, and the state has no business getting involved. (Plenty of folks think that laws making it a criminal offense to rent something, then stop paying for it and refuse to give it back, are BS. I am not one of those people though, I should add.)
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/30/2011 3:38:26 PM EDT
[#12]
Quoted:
I know if I go in front of a judge, the judge will order this person to return my property, but that will cost me about $8000 in legal fees. It would be super easy to have the police arrest this person or threaten arrest and get my property back for me. So include your legal fees in the civil complaint. And I'm honestly surprised your attorney hasn't told you to sit down and STFU about this. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/30/2011 3:43:58 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I know if I go in front of a judge, the judge will order this person to return my property, but that will cost me about $8000 in legal fees. It would be super easy to have the police arrest this person or threaten arrest and get my property back for me. So include your legal fees in the civil complaint. And I'm honestly surprised your attorney hasn't told you to sit down and STFU about this. That might be coming very shortly. 
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/30/2011 4:05:59 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted: Quoted: Let's say you lend someone an item worth $20,000. That person agrees in writing that they will return that item in a certain amount of time. When the time is up, they refuse to return the item and basically tell you "Fuck you! I acknowledge the property is yours and I'm supposed to return it, but I'm not returning your property!" Let's also say that you have audio recordings and numerous emails where this person states in absolute terms that they acknowledge that they are in possession of your property and that you own the property but they refuse to return it to you. So my question is does this fall under the legal definition of criminal theft? If so, if I took these recordings and emails and presented them to the police, would they arrest the person for criminal theft and seize my property and return it to me? "That's a civil matter" Police will not help you. You might be able to sue for replevin, or at least for the value of the item. I'll hedge that a little bit, depending on your location, the size of the department you deal with etc––for example if it was me and I talked to an officer I had known for years I suspect he would swing by the guy's house and give him a "give it back or else buster" even if he wouldn't really arrest the guy. Bullshit. It's called larceny by conversion and they most cetainly WILL arrest for it. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/30/2011 4:12:09 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
Quoted:
You know, if you happen to come into posession of your own property you can't be charged with theft of property you own. To accomplish that I would have to commit house breaking, and I will not do that. We don't have any "house breaking" here, just burglary. Burglary requires that a crime is to be committed. Taking your own property back isn't a crime, so no burglary. Whoever enters a building without consent and with intent to commit a crime, or enters a building without consent and commits a crime while in the building...
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/30/2011 4:23:55 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted: Quoted: Well, the OP's tactic of not wanting to waste time and space on telling GD what the item is has certainly not worked out.  I already said the piece of property is a Russian bride.  In that case................PICS OF BRIDE OR GTFO!  Rules, ya'know |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/30/2011 4:24:48 PM EDT
[#17]
Who's signature is on the head?
I would assume it is hand-wired by the man himself and possibly owned by no less than Mr James Page. Ive never seen a $20k Marshall head before...nothing even close. 
But to answer your actual question, it is theft and your attorney is clueless. (In this case, a breech of contract has resulted in a theft of goods) |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/30/2011 4:30:58 PM EDT
[#18]
It sure doesn't hurt to take your information (copies) down to the police dept and talk to someone.
They might just help you out. In my experience, I wouldn't count on it, but you might get some help that will save a lot of money and hassle. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/30/2011 4:40:29 PM EDT
[#19]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Let's say you lend someone an item worth $20,000. That person agrees in writing that they will return that item in a certain amount of time. When the time is up, they refuse to return the item and basically tell you "Fuck you! I acknowledge the property is yours and I'm supposed to return it, but I'm not returning your property!" Let's also say that you have audio recordings and numerous emails where this person states in absolute terms that they acknowledge that they are in possession of your property and that you own the property but they refuse to return it to you. So my question is does this fall under the legal definition of criminal theft? If so, if I took these recordings and emails and presented them to the police, would they arrest the person for criminal theft and seize my property and return it to me? "That's a civil matter" Police will not help you. You might be able to sue for replevin, or at least for the value of the item. I'll hedge that a little bit, depending on your location, the size of the department you deal with etc––for example if it was me and I talked to an officer I had known for years I suspect he would swing by the guy's house and give him a "give it back or else buster" even if he wouldn't really arrest the guy. Bullshit. It's called larceny by conversion and they most cetainly WILL arrest for it. I never cease to be amazed at how some people make general statements with absolute certainty, and they do not know what they are talking about. 
Different states have different laws.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/30/2011 4:52:43 PM EDT
[#20]
Find a lawyer who does criminal as well as civil. Lots of solo practitioners should fit this bill. Then ask him this question. If there is a way to get the police involved he shouldn't charge you much if anything for that info.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/30/2011 4:55:52 PM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
but he did not unlawfully appropriate the property, you let him borrow it. It is a civil matter. If it were a vehicle, then it would be Unauthorized Use of a Motor-Vehicle, but that is a different charge than theft.
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Dang dude , I'm sorry all this crap happens to you.  I have a good life and I'm happy for the most part. Unfortunately there are a lot of people in this world that will take any opportunity that comes along to fuck people over. I had this situation happen to me and I am in discussion with my attorney as to whether this falls under the legal definition of theft. He says it is not theft, and I disagree with him. He claims it is a contractual breech. I disagree because this person with my property clearly states that they acknowledge that the property is mine and they are depriving the rightful owner (me) of my property. That is the definition of theft IMO. That is your definition of "theft", your attorney disagrees and for good reason. Good luck I hope it works out for you. Definition of Theft (Short Version) - Texas Penal Code § 31.03. THEFT. (a) A person commits an offense if he unlawfully appropriates property with intent to deprive the owner of property. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/30/2011 4:58:52 PM EDT
[#22]
To summarize...
The police on the board and telling you it is a civil matter. The attorneys, including your own, are telling you it is a civil matter. The people who base their replies on watching "Law and Order" or "Judge Judy" think that the police need to kick down the door and arrest the dude. Has your question been answered. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/30/2011 5:03:37 PM EDT
[#23]
We're on page 3 and I'm the only person to guess it's a $20K 1957 Fender Stratocaster?!
/
ETA: A few more 's
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/30/2011 5:05:33 PM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
Legalfag here, You gave him possession, and he kept the property for longer. From my understanding the facts suggest embezzlement. Embezzlement is when someone takes something lawfully and while its in their possession converts it to their own illegally. Seems pretty cut and dry to me, although I'm not very familiar with Texuhs law.1 If your attorney is suggesting that its a contractual issue, either 1. your not giving us all the facts surrounding the matter, or 2. your attorney is mistaken. Upon a second read there might be, but frankly, i just looked up embezzlement so im sticking to it. Then again i dont think its a contractual issue, because there is no consideration for the lending. promise + consideration = contract. Your missing a piece. 2 The first and easiest step would be to go to the police station, explain your situation & evidence, then ask the fuzz to accompany you to this mans house to get your stuff back. OR just be a bit vague / silent on the issue, say your going to pick up your amp and you'd feel safer with a police officer there. Don't ask anything official, say he's consented to you picking the stuff up, but has been drinking or something to just get the cop to go with you as if enforcing your right to take the shit. People act very different when police are on the scene. 3 If not, I'd be sure to get a pre-judgment seizure of the property, seeing as the property is fragile and this D-bag might "lose / damage" it in the interim. 1. You are wrong, that is the only thing that is cut and dry 2. His attorney advised him that it was a civil matter. His attorney is right 3. Lying to the police to pull them into the middle of a situation that the OP created is a very bad idea. Especially since the OP was advised that it was a civil matter. When the cop figures out that you lied, gets pissed, and then the other dude wants the OP arrested for trespassing, well, at least the cop won't be pissed anymore. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/30/2011 5:37:24 PM EDT
[#25]
I would definitely consider speaking with a different attorney if possible. I'm just finishing up my first law course and we spent a considerable amount of time discussing what constitutes theft. Without doubt, this person is depriving your right to ownership of property. That said, your attorney could be saying that contractual breach might be a better avenue for prosecution. The statute defines theft pretty well in situations like that. It wouldn't hurt to speak with someone at your local LE station because this isn't just a small petty larceny issue and they can give you more accurate information on methods of prosecution.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/30/2011 6:10:41 PM EDT
[#26]
Quoted:
"In explaining the meaning and comprehensiveness of the word "taking," as used in the Texas statutory definition of theft, Tex. Penal Code art. 727 provides, amongst other things, that if the taking, though originally lawful, was obtained by any false pretext, or with any intent to deprive the owner of the value thereof and appropriate the property to the use and benefit of the person taking, and the same is so appropriated, the offense of theft is complete. This is where the possession of property has been acquired lawfully by the taker, that is, where the owner consents to part with the possession of his property and the taker obtains possession by virtue of such consent. In such cases, the taker may be guilty of theft, notwithstanding such lawful possession, by one or the other of the two modes mentioned in the statute; that is, first, by his having obtained such possession by any false pretext, which induced or deceived the owner into surrendering the possession to him; or, second, where he has obtained possession from the owner and at the time intends to deprive him of the value thereof and appropriate the property to his own use and benefit. Either one of these modes of acquisition of property will separately constitute theft under the Texas Code." So if the OP can call up the dude and get the dude to admit that he knew when he took the $20k item that he never intended to return it... |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/30/2011 6:28:01 PM EDT
[#27]
In Wyoming we would call that larceny by bailee and pursue it as a crime. You are not in Wyoming.
WSS 6-3-401. Definitions. (a) As used in this article: (i) “Bailee” means a person other than the owner of property who rightfully possesses property; (ii) “Deprive” means: (A) To withhold property of another permanently or for so extended a period as to appropriate a major portion of its economic value or with intent to restore only upon payment of reward or other compensation; or WSS 6-3-402 Larceny (b) A bailee, a public servant as defined by W.S. 6-5-101(a)(vi) or any person entrusted with the control, care or custody of any money or other property who, with intent to steal or to deprive the owner of the property, converts the property to his own or another's use is guilty of larceny. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/30/2011 6:32:16 PM EDT
[#28]
In Florida that is grand theft, not a civil matter. Regardless if you guys had some kind of agreement if he has your property and you can now show that he still has it with the intent to permanently deprive you of it is theft.
I arrest people on agreements gone bad like this all the time, FL Statute 812.014 |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/30/2011 6:44:07 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: You know, if you happen to come into posession of your own property you can't be charged with theft of property you own. To accomplish that I would have to commit house breaking, and I will not do that. We don't have any "house breaking" here, just burglary. Burglary requires that a crime is to be committed. Taking your own property back isn't a crime, so no burglary. Whoever enters a building without consent and with intent to commit a crime, or enters a building without consent and commits a crime while in the building... In Texas you can legally be shot dead for unlawfully entering someone else's home. Not something you want to do. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/30/2011 6:53:53 PM EDT
[#30]
In many jurisdictions, that's specifically addressed as theft-by-bailee. Essentially, theft in cases where the thief has had permission at some point to possess said property.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/30/2011 7:16:35 PM EDT
[#31]
Is the property a safe that you found but have not opened to determine the contents?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/30/2011 7:16:47 PM EDT
[#32]
Is a repo company an option here?
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/30/2011 7:17:54 PM EDT
[#33]
Definitely seems like a civil matter to me, and I can't help but feel there is some pertinent information conveniently being left out. I'm not sure the need for the cloak and dagger routine, especially considering this is GD. If you really wanted straight, no BS answers, why not post this in the team forum? I'm going to be honest, posting this here certainly suggests you wanted to up the drama level. Not raising the BS flag or anything, but it really does seem like there is more to this story. I also have to admit that I find it a little ridiculous you want to add secrecy to the thread. Furthermore, there are a lot of intelligent people on this thread, and the type of advice offered may hinge on the identity of the actual item. It really does make a difference.
I do have a few questions, though. Hopefully I'm not posting anything that has been answered, but here goes: 1. Why did the individual want to borrow this mystery item, and why were you willing to lend it out? 2. What is the benefit of the individual keeping the item and not returning it to you? 3. Have the two of you had some falling out in the time since you loaned out the item, at least a falling out unrelated to the item? 4. How are you determining the $20k value? This is important, as you will need clear documentation of value should you go to civil court. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/30/2011 7:27:34 PM EDT
[#34]
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/30/2011 7:32:50 PM EDT
[#35]
sounds like a clear case of theft by taking
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/30/2011 7:39:52 PM EDT
[#36]
Theft of Rental Property here....check your local ordinaces.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/30/2011 7:51:18 PM EDT
[#37]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Let's say you lend someone an item worth $20,000. That person agrees in writing that they will return that item in a certain amount of time. When the time is up, they refuse to return the item and basically tell you "Fuck you! I acknowledge the property is yours and I'm supposed to return it, but I'm not returning your property!" Let's also say that you have audio recordings and numerous emails where this person states in absolute terms that they acknowledge that they are in possession of your property and that you own the property but they refuse to return it to you. So my question is does this fall under the legal definition of criminal theft? If so, if I took these recordings and emails and presented them to the police, would they arrest the person for criminal theft and seize my property and return it to me? "That's a civil matter" Police will not help you. You might be able to sue for replevin, or at least for the value of the item. I'll hedge that a little bit, depending on your location, the size of the department you deal with etc––for example if it was me and I talked to an officer I had known for years I suspect he would swing by the guy's house and give him a "give it back or else buster" even if he wouldn't really arrest the guy. Bullshit. It's called larceny by conversion and they most cetainly WILL arrest for it. I never cease to be amazed at how some people make general statements with absolute certainty, and they do not know what they are talking about. Different states have different laws. You're correct O_P. I should have stated that here in Michigan that is the case. |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/30/2011 7:54:16 PM EDT
[#38]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: You know, if you happen to come into posession of your own property you can't be charged with theft of property you own. To accomplish that I would have to commit house breaking, and I will not do that. We don't have any "house breaking" here, just burglary. Burglary requires that a crime is to be committed. Taking your own property back isn't a crime, so no burglary. Whoever enters a building without consent and with intent to commit a crime, or enters a building without consent and commits a crime while in the building... Do a no-knock! |
|
|
|
Posted: 4/30/2011 8:00:07 PM EDT
[#39]
Put a huge trailer loaded with concrete. Park it in front of his driveway and block him in before work one day. Stay there until the cops show up and hope they adjudicate.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 4/30/2011 8:10:38 PM EDT
[#40]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
You know, if you happen to come into posession of your own property you can't be charged with theft of property you own. To accomplish that I would have to commit house breaking, and I will not do that. We don't have any "house breaking" here, just burglary. Burglary requires that a crime is to be committed. Taking your own property back isn't a crime, so no burglary. Whoever enters a building without consent and with intent to commit a crime, or enters a building without consent and commits a crime while in the building... I would not take this advice. |
|
|
|
Posted: 5/1/2011 7:03:46 AM EDT
[#41]
I couldn't sleep last night. I was up all night wondering what your item was.
|
|
|
|
Posted: 5/1/2011 7:42:06 AM EDT
[#42]
Theft by Conversion, took something of yours with an agreement to return it, then failed to return it. Same charge as if you were to rent a car from Enterprise and never return it.
|
|
|
Win a FREE Membership!
Sign up for the ARFCOM weekly newsletter and be entered to win a free ARFCOM membership. One new winner* is announced every week!
You will receive an email every Friday morning featuring the latest chatter from the hottest topics, breaking news surrounding legislation, as well as exclusive deals only available to ARFCOM email subscribers.
AR15.COM is the world's largest firearm community and is a gathering place for firearm enthusiasts of all types.
From hunters and military members, to competition shooters and general firearm enthusiasts, we welcome anyone who values and respects the way of the firearm.
Subscribe to our monthly Newsletter to receive firearm news, product discounts from your favorite Industry Partners, and more.
Copyright © 1996-2024 AR15.COM LLC. All Rights Reserved.
Any use of this content without express written consent is prohibited.
AR15.Com reserves the right to overwrite or replace any affiliate, commercial, or monetizable links, posted by users, with our own.
