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Posted: 9/17/2009 5:34:20 PM EDT
[#1]
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My opinion is I don't like medals, and would be perfectly happy with how the Confederates did it where NOBODY gets a medal for anything. Nobody is special, all of them are heroes. This guy is a hero and committed an extremely valorous act Robert E. Lee believed this. There may have been some merit to it. The thing about medals is that some will go out and do something stupid to try and "win" one. The thing about trying to win a CMH is that it most likely will also "win" you a coffin too. There was a time that wasn't entirely true. But we wouldn't want to do anything to boost morale these days. Kind of defeats the purpose of awards, IMO. I dunno, there are some living cases that certainly deserve it but the Distinguished Service Cross or Silver Star are nothing to thumb your nose at. DSC should be VERY highly respected, that is a very hard medal to get. But I've seen some turds end up getting silver stars. Some Silver star awardees definitely earned it, and some that certainly didn't. When I was in Iraq, the guys who died got an automatic silver star, which I agree with, and in that light, the silver star does deserves alot of respect. However, other guys got silver star's just for being in Iraq and being of officer rank or SFC or above, and earned it doing they NOTHING valorous. So which I don't think warrants much respect if that is the case for earning it. I've heard a lot of Silver Star citations read, and I've never heard of a single one (Navy or USMC) that wasn't well deserved. If some folks are awarding it inappropriately, that's a really bad thing in my opinion. I've seen both sides. Where guys REALLY did earn them, and other guys get them for just being a leader of a platoon or company, even if they never themselves got shot at or had to actually LEAD their troops while under attack. The Silver Star should be a very respected award, but sadly, some people seem to get it because of their rank. I'm finding this but really hard to accept. Do you have any first hand knowledge of this. I thought the Bronze Star was watered down enough. Using the Silver Star for anything but extraordinary valor, though, is pure bullshit. I'd be raising holy hell, as it dishonors others who have earned it. I saw it with my own eyes. It was sort of a standard thing. EVERY platoon leader or platoon sergeant got a silver star. It was like they were entitled to it. I was pissed about it. And no, this isn't something that is rare, lots of units are doing the same thing. Hell, I was with a SF unit on the my first tour, and they were giving out silver stars to each other like it was candy. And none of them really faced ANY hostile fire. This thread is in poor taste. Any of you that question this man earning the medal, You make me sad. Are there guys out there that I think should have earned it. Yes, absolutely. To the above poster on the SS I call BS. Sorry bud, it doesnt pass muster. Erik |
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Posted: 9/17/2009 5:37:32 PM EDT
[#2]
I see threads on the web of families pushing for a MOH for the brave soldier in their family who died.
It seems to me more family / town / state pressure to give one now than before.
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Posted: 9/17/2009 5:38:39 PM EDT
[#3]
I invite anyone who thinks this soldier shouldn't have gotten MoH to take it up with the members of his patrol and see what their response is, after you get out of the hospital feel free to post what they said.
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Posted: 9/17/2009 5:39:40 PM EDT
[#4]
Originally Posted By E.r.i.k: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: My opinion is I don't like medals, and would be perfectly happy with how the Confederates did it where NOBODY gets a medal for anything. Nobody is special, all of them are heroes. This guy is a hero and committed an extremely valorous act Robert E. Lee believed this. There may have been some merit to it. The thing about medals is that some will go out and do something stupid to try and "win" one. The thing about trying to win a CMH is that it most likely will also "win" you a coffin too. There was a time that wasn't entirely true. But we wouldn't want to do anything to boost morale these days. Kind of defeats the purpose of awards, IMO. I dunno, there are some living cases that certainly deserve it but the Distinguished Service Cross or Silver Star are nothing to thumb your nose at. DSC should be VERY highly respected, that is a very hard medal to get. But I've seen some turds end up getting silver stars. Some Silver star awardees definitely earned it, and some that certainly didn't. When I was in Iraq, the guys who died got an automatic silver star, which I agree with, and in that light, the silver star does deserves alot of respect. However, other guys got silver star's just for being in Iraq and being of officer rank or SFC or above, and earned it doing they NOTHING valorous. So which I don't think warrants much respect if that is the case for earning it. I've heard a lot of Silver Star citations read, and I've never heard of a single one (Navy or USMC) that wasn't well deserved. If some folks are awarding it inappropriately, that's a really bad thing in my opinion. I've seen both sides. Where guys REALLY did earn them, and other guys get them for just being a leader of a platoon or company, even if they never themselves got shot at or had to actually LEAD their troops while under attack. The Silver Star should be a very respected award, but sadly, some people seem to get it because of their rank. I'm finding this but really hard to accept. Do you have any first hand knowledge of this. I thought the Bronze Star was watered down enough. Using the Silver Star for anything but extraordinary valor, though, is pure bullshit. I'd be raising holy hell, as it dishonors others who have earned it. I saw it with my own eyes. It was sort of a standard thing. EVERY platoon leader or platoon sergeant got a silver star. It was like they were entitled to it. I was pissed about it. And no, this isn't something that is rare, lots of units are doing the same thing. Hell, I was with a SF unit on the my first tour, and they were giving out silver stars to each other like it was candy. And none of them really faced ANY hostile fire. This thread is in poor taste. Any of you that question this man earning the medal, You make me sad. Are there guys out there that I think should have earned it. Yes, absolutely. To the above poster on the SS I call BS. Sorry bud, it doesnt pass muster. Erik Whatever. I gives a fuck if you believe it or not. |
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Posted: 9/17/2009 5:42:03 PM EDT
[#5]
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Why do we even have medals? They serve no purpose and the vast majority of recipients dont want them either. Pointless. To reward outstanding performance of duty, valor, and skill. There are a few problems. There aren't uniform quantifiable standards for awards. Many people have received "outstanding garrison" awards. Next, there are a lot of people, senior Army and Marine officers seem to be the worst offenders, that seem to have received about 60 "medals" with a lot of them being what appear to be attendance awards. Admiral Nimitz wore 4-5 medals most of the time. When Eisenhower was directing the fighting in Western Europe, he wore about 1 row of medals. |
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Posted: 9/17/2009 5:47:54 PM EDT
[#6]
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Originally Posted By E.r.i.k:
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My opinion is I don't like medals, and would be perfectly happy with how the Confederates did it where NOBODY gets a medal for anything. Nobody is special, all of them are heroes. This guy is a hero and committed an extremely valorous act Robert E. Lee believed this. There may have been some merit to it. The thing about medals is that some will go out and do something stupid to try and "win" one. The thing about trying to win a CMH is that it most likely will also "win" you a coffin too. There was a time that wasn't entirely true. But we wouldn't want to do anything to boost morale these days. Kind of defeats the purpose of awards, IMO. I dunno, there are some living cases that certainly deserve it but the Distinguished Service Cross or Silver Star are nothing to thumb your nose at. DSC should be VERY highly respected, that is a very hard medal to get. But I've seen some turds end up getting silver stars. Some Silver star awardees definitely earned it, and some that certainly didn't. When I was in Iraq, the guys who died got an automatic silver star, which I agree with, and in that light, the silver star does deserves alot of respect. However, other guys got silver star's just for being in Iraq and being of officer rank or SFC or above, and earned it doing they NOTHING valorous. So which I don't think warrants much respect if that is the case for earning it. I've heard a lot of Silver Star citations read, and I've never heard of a single one (Navy or USMC) that wasn't well deserved. If some folks are awarding it inappropriately, that's a really bad thing in my opinion. I've seen both sides. Where guys REALLY did earn them, and other guys get them for just being a leader of a platoon or company, even if they never themselves got shot at or had to actually LEAD their troops while under attack. The Silver Star should be a very respected award, but sadly, some people seem to get it because of their rank. I'm finding this but really hard to accept. Do you have any first hand knowledge of this. I thought the Bronze Star was watered down enough. Using the Silver Star for anything but extraordinary valor, though, is pure bullshit. I'd be raising holy hell, as it dishonors others who have earned it. I saw it with my own eyes. It was sort of a standard thing. EVERY platoon leader or platoon sergeant got a silver star. It was like they were entitled to it. I was pissed about it. And no, this isn't something that is rare, lots of units are doing the same thing. Hell, I was with a SF unit on the my first tour, and they were giving out silver stars to each other like it was candy. And none of them really faced ANY hostile fire. This thread is in poor taste. Any of you that question this man earning the medal, You make me sad. Are there guys out there that I think should have earned it. Yes, absolutely. To the above poster on the SS I call BS. Sorry bud, it doesnt pass muster. Erik Whatever. I gives a fuck if you believe it or not. A little touchy huh? |
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Posted: 9/17/2009 5:48:09 PM EDT
[#7]
What is sad is the sparse coverage given SFC Monti's MOH.
It is no longer on the front page of CNN and is down towards the bottom of Fox News. Whores/Child Abusers like Kate and Jon Gosselin will receive more media attention this week than a true American hero. Monk |
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Posted: 9/17/2009 5:51:43 PM EDT
[#8]
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My opinion is I don't like medals, and would be perfectly happy with how the Confederates did it where NOBODY gets a medal for anything. Nobody is special, all of them are heroes. This guy is a hero and committed an extremely valorous act Robert E. Lee believed this. There may have been some merit to it. The thing about medals is that some will go out and do something stupid to try and "win" one. And look where they ended up. |
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Posted: 9/17/2009 5:55:22 PM EDT
[#9]
Quoted: how the fuck can you guys sit there on your fat asses and think you know better than the DOD.  jesus, the guy was awarded the MOH for fucks sake.The guy is a hero. But others have done the same and more daily and they are lucky to get a CIB. I am not saying he does not deserve it. I am saying thousands of others do as well if thats the standard. I think someone close to Obama wanted to get his name in a positive light. Using this soldiers death. The requirements are totally arbitrary. Sometimes its extremely impossible and that wasnt always the historical case. Take the battle of wounded knee for example. Soldiers were awarded if for manning cannons far from the battle. Firing into mostly unarmed women and children. Hell firing ito their own men as well. |
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Posted: 9/17/2009 5:57:54 PM EDT
[#10]
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What is sad is the sparse coverage given SFC Monti's MOH. It is no longer on the front page of CNN and is down towards the bottom of Fox News. Whores/Child Abusers like Kate and Jon Gosselin will receive more media attention this week than a true American hero. Monk I saw a story about it on 2 of the MSM channels tonight. I didn't check the 3rd's coverage. |
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Posted: 9/17/2009 6:02:13 PM EDT
[#11]
No one alive has earned a MOH since Viet Nam I beleive.
Hell Audie Murphy and Alvin York would not earn a MOH under todays standards, now you have to die to get one. Not eroded at all, we need to start giving them out to living military personnel. |
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Posted: 9/17/2009 6:04:23 PM EDT
[#12]
Im not going to say he didnt deserve it but reading the story. I would say there was a few that should have gotten it that didnt.
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Posted: 9/17/2009 6:05:09 PM EDT
[#13]
Quoted: I wasn't commenting on this one in particular, but I think the MOH is getting watered down a bit. Maybe I am wrong, so be it. I think it is generally the opposite. There are numerous GIs that have done things that would have rated an MOH in other wars. Now we only give them out posthumously. For example, I think that Lance Corporal Richard Weinmaster or Captain Brian Chontosh should have gotten the MOH for their actions. |
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Posted: 9/17/2009 6:07:16 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted: No one alive has earned a MOH since Viet Nam I beleive. Hell Audie Murphy and Alvin York would not earn a MOH under todays standards, now you have to die to get one. Not eroded at all, we need to start giving them out to living military personnel. IF Audie Murphy had a radio and could get in precision air strikes within minutes of calling for CAS, then he would not have done what he had to do what he did to receive the MOH. We have such a technological advantage of our foes, we don't have guys doing all that crazy stuff when accurate CAS is a very quick phone call away.... Different times we live in. |
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Posted: 9/17/2009 6:16:03 PM EDT
[#15]
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how the fuck can you guys sit there on your fat asses and think you know better than the DOD. jesus, the guy was awarded the MOH for fucks sake.I wasn't commenting on this one in particular, but I think the MOH is getting watered down a bit. Maybe I am wrong, so be it. What? There hasn't been a single MOH awarded to a living person in the last 8 years while fighting two wars. How the fuck can you call that watered down? +1, This. . Secretary of Defense , Robert Gates was on TV last night talking about the very same thing. He lamented the fact that so few MOH's were being awarded in relation to the length of the war. All Posthumously and that 2 or 3 more solidiers were under consideration. Not that he could or would try to change anything, he was just sad that so few of our brave military heroes were up for consideration. |
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Posted: 9/17/2009 6:17:57 PM EDT
[#16]
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No one alive has earned a MOH since Viet Nam I beleive. Hell Audie Murphy and Alvin York would not earn a MOH under todays standards, now you have to die to get one. Not eroded at all, we need to start giving them out to living military personnel. IF Audie Murphy had a radio and could get in precision air strikes within minutes of calling for CAS, then he would not have done what he had to do what he did and receive the MOH. We have such a technological advantage of our foes, we don't have guys doing all that crazy stuff when accurate CAS is a very quick phone call away.... Different times we live in. On this point we do agree. Warfare has changed. But, at times it can still be very man against man. Pucker factor can and still does happen. Still a Hero is a hero. The man has recieved this medal and I dont think anyone should try to degrade that. Erik |
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Posted: 9/17/2009 6:21:29 PM EDT
[#17]
Originally Posted By E.r.i.k: Quoted: Quoted: No one alive has earned a MOH since Viet Nam I beleive. Hell Audie Murphy and Alvin York would not earn a MOH under todays standards, now you have to die to get one. Not eroded at all, we need to start giving them out to living military personnel. IF Audie Murphy had a radio and could get in precision air strikes within minutes of calling for CAS, then he would not have done what he had to do what he did and receive the MOH. We have such a technological advantage of our foes, we don't have guys doing all that crazy stuff when accurate CAS is a very quick phone call away.... Different times we live in. On this point we do agree. Warfare has changed. But, at times it can still be very man against man. Pucker factor can and still does happen. Still a Hero is a hero. The man has recieved this medal and I dont think anyone should try to degrade that. Erik No I completely agree. In fact, NO WHERE in this thread do I say anything about him not deserving it. I was just trying to make the point that we don't see so many MOH awardees these days, because thanks to technology, our troops don't have to stick out their necks like they often did in WW2 where if you were getting overwhelmed, you had to have guys fighting like mad men, where as now it doesn't happen so much because if a unit gets into a really bad situation, air support is alot more accurate and much more quickly available, so they don't always have to do that crazy rambo stuff to survive or hurl the enemy back. |
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Posted: 9/17/2009 6:30:54 PM EDT
[#18]
AIV,
Just so we are square I never stated that you did. I want to make sure that I was clear on that. I disagree with one thing you said but not the rest of it. Erik |
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Posted: 9/17/2009 6:33:12 PM EDT
[#19]
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What is sad is the sparse coverage given SFC Monti's MOH. It is no longer on the front page of CNN and is down towards the bottom of Fox News. Whores/Child Abusers like Kate and Jon Gosselin will receive more media attention this week than a true American hero. Monk I saw a story about it on 2 of the MSM channels tonight. I didn't check the 3rd's coverage. I'm watching it on Fox right now. |
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Posted: 9/17/2009 6:33:56 PM EDT
[#20]
I can't comment on whether he should have got it or not. I think most of those post humously awarded medals are for the family, friends, and out of respect.
I met a real living MOH from WWII. Google Desmond T. Doss. Hell, he was such a small man I don't know how he could have even moved all those wounded guys! |
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Posted: 9/17/2009 6:34:10 PM EDT
[#21]
Its saddening to see what the MoH has become, as long as you die, you deserve it. Im not going to sit here and criticize the man's actions and say if he deserved it or not, but i would think thats what most soldier's would do(especially if he was a mdedi, not sure if thats what the arrticle says its somewhat unclear), help a wounded comrade, but if you die doing it, BAM you get a MoH. His actions were nothing like diving on a live grenade to save several people, when he could have easily made it to cover like in Petty Officer 2nd Class Michael A. Monsoor 's case.
RIP, farewell and my heart goes out to the family. |
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Posted: 9/17/2009 6:35:46 PM EDT
[#22]
He was definitely a hero of this country. No one should dispute this fact.
The thing is everyone that serves is my hero, it's just there are different degrees of being a "hero." Perhaps we shouldn't even consider this as was Lee's opinion. Perhaps we should only award it to political people. (NOT) I don't dispute his heroism. He gave his life for his country and his fellow soldiers. No one should argue that, he gave all for us. As I type this, I understand Lee's quandry. God bless them all. |
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Posted: 9/17/2009 6:37:21 PM EDT
[#23]
For every Medal of Honor awarded, I suspect there are 10 or 100 deserved.
Unless a person is on the site of the action, they have no say about whether the award is warranted. |
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Posted: 9/17/2009 6:39:09 PM EDT
[#24]
Quoted: Quoted: how the fuck can you guys sit there on your fat asses and think you know better than the DOD. jesus, the guy was awarded the MOH for fucks sake.I wasn't commenting on this one in particular, but I think the MOH is getting watered down a bit. Maybe I am wrong, so be it. You are wrong. It has become, apparently a requirement to die while engaged in the act. Vietnam gave us plenty of living MOH awardees. Our awards for valor, the ARCOM w/V, the BSM w/v, the Silver Star, the DSC and the MOH are not being awarded for situations they routinely were before. As a former Commander who tried to get his Soldiers good and well deserved valor awards I found the system overly bureaucratic and frankly some senior Commanders acted as if they were taking it off their own chest. If you read the avg MOH citation from Vietnam or WWII and compare it to today, the Soldier might be lucky to get a Silver Star. RIP SFC Monti - someone who knew what being a Soldier and Brother in Arms was about.
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Posted: 9/17/2009 6:40:04 PM EDT
[#25]
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For every Medal of Honor awarded, I suspect there are 10 or 100 deserved. Unless a person is on the site of the action, they have no say in the award. Amen |
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Posted: 9/17/2009 6:40:06 PM EDT
[#26]
Quoted: Hi all I think Sgt. Jared Monti died a herioc death. My condolances to his family. He was awarded the congressional Medal of Honoh(CMOH) today by President B.O. ... "Sgt. Jared Monti: Monti was leading a small Army patrol near the Pakistani border in 2006 when it was ambushed. He called for help, then ventured out to rescue a wounded soldier, losing his own life. The man he tried to rescue, as well as a medic, later died when a helicopter cable snapped." http://news.aol.com/article/late-soldier-sgt-jared-monti-to-receive/674499 I don't think he deserves the Medal of Honor. Compare,if you will, what other winners of the CMH have done: (Although I suggest skipping the cases where whole units were given a CMOH for re-enlisting during the Cival War.) http://www.history.army.mil/moh.html IMHO Sgt. Jared Monti certainly deserves some type of award, but not the highest one. Before the imature name calling begins-really think about this issue. If every one who has died in the Iraq War was given a CMOH- what would it really mean? RIP Sgt. Jared Monti. I think just the opposite: The CMOH is actually 'lessend' by being a posthumous-only award... The kind of actions that merited a CMOH in Vietnam... Now only merit a BSV or maybe a SS... Look at Maj Crandall, or the LT who singlehandedly charged & took down a NVA MG nest that was killing his platoon at LZ X... Both got MOHs... Both well deserved... Both were alive to accept... |
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Posted: 9/17/2009 6:44:02 PM EDT
[#27]
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What is sad is the sparse coverage given SFC Monti's MOH. It is no longer on the front page of CNN and is down towards the bottom of Fox News. Whores/Child Abusers like Kate and Jon Gosselin will receive more media attention this week than a true American hero. Monk I saw a story about it on 2 of the MSM channels tonight. I didn't check the 3rd's coverage. I'm watching it on Fox right now. Yes there is some coverage of today's Medal of Honor ceremony but not a lot and it will be over quickly. Some one should compare the numbers of stories and amount of network TV time given to SFC Monti's story vs. Kanya West's stupidity at the MTV VMA. Monk |
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Posted: 9/17/2009 6:45:51 PM EDT
[#28]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: My opinion is I don't like medals, and would be perfectly happy with how the Confederates did it where NOBODY gets a medal for anything. Nobody is special, all of them are heroes. This guy is a hero and committed an extremely valorous act Robert E. Lee believed this. There may have been some merit to it. The thing about medals is that some will go out and do something stupid to try and "win" one. The thing about trying to win a CMH is that it most likely will also "win" you a coffin too. There was a time that wasn't entirely true. But we wouldn't want to do anything to boost morale these days. Kind of defeats the purpose of awards, IMO. I dunno, there are some living cases that certainly deserve it but the Distinguished Service Cross or Silver Star are nothing to thumb your nose at. DSC should be VERY highly respected, that is a very hard medal to get. But I've seen some turds end up getting silver stars. Some Silver star awardees definitely earned it, and some that certainly didn't. When I was in Iraq, the guys who died got an automatic silver star, which I agree with, and in that light, the silver star does deserves alot of respect. However, other guys got silver star's just for being in Iraq and being of officer rank or SFC or above, and earned it doing they NOTHING valorous. So which I don't think warrants much respect if that is the case for earning it. Guys that get killed do not automatically get a Silver Star. It goes through a similar process as the MOH.
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Posted: 9/17/2009 6:47:36 PM EDT
[#29]
Bronze Star too. I have seen countless AF officers get awarded them for being a base commander overseas. How heroic. Very devalued of what it really means. As far as this soldier goes, I was not there to see his actions, under fire is a lot diffrent than not. RIP soldier, he died with his boots on saving others.
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Posted: 9/17/2009 6:47:44 PM EDT
[#30]
Im glad Im not alone in this. We caught the the ceremony on TV and I told my wife I didnt think this was MOH worthy action. Heroic to be sure but If you compare his actions to some of the actions from Vietnam, WW2, or Gordon and Shugart Its vastly different. I was always taught that MOH worthy actions must change the tide of battle. Essentially you either have to kill a lot of people or save a lot of peoples lives.
I fear this was political posturing either from Barry or this soldiers congress-turds. If this is the new standard then I can think of a few servicemen deserving of the MOH as well including Brian Chontosh, The AFSOC airman from the battle of roberts ridge and that unnamed kid who secured the entire flank of the jessica lynch rescue single handed. |
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Posted: 9/17/2009 6:52:22 PM EDT
[#31]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: My opinion is I don't like medals, and would be perfectly happy with how the Confederates did it where NOBODY gets a medal for anything. Nobody is special, all of them are heroes. This guy is a hero and committed an extremely valorous act Robert E. Lee believed this. There may have been some merit to it. The thing about medals is that some will go out and do something stupid to try and "win" one. The thing about trying to win a CMH is that it most likely will also "win" you a coffin too. There was a time that wasn't entirely true. But we wouldn't want to do anything to boost morale these days. Kind of defeats the purpose of awards, IMO. I dunno, there are some living cases that certainly deserve it but the Distinguished Service Cross or Silver Star are nothing to thumb your nose at. DSC should be VERY highly respected, that is a very hard medal to get. But I've seen some turds end up getting silver stars. Some Silver star awardees definitely earned it, and some that certainly didn't. When I was in Iraq, the guys who died got an automatic silver star, which I agree with, and in that light, the silver star does deserves alot of respect. However, other guys got silver star's just for being in Iraq and being of officer rank or SFC or above, and earned it doing they NOTHING valorous. So which I don't think warrants much respect if that is the case for earning it. I've heard a lot of Silver Star citations read, and I've never heard of a single one (Navy or USMC) that wasn't well deserved. If some folks are awarding it inappropriately, that's a really bad thing in my opinion. I've seen both sides. Where guys REALLY did earn them, and other guys get them for just being a leader of a platoon or company, even if they never themselves got shot at or had to actually LEAD their troops while under attack. The Silver Star should be a very respected award, but sadly, some people seem to get it because of their rank. I'm finding this but really hard to accept. Do you have any first hand knowledge of this. I thought the Bronze Star was watered down enough. Using the Silver Star for anything but extraordinary valor, though, is pure bullshit. I'd be raising holy hell, as it dishonors others who have earned it. I saw it with my own eyes. It was sort of a standard thing. EVERY platoon leader or platoon sergeant got a silver star. It was like they were entitled to it. I was pissed about it. And no, this isn't something that is rare, lots of units are doing the same thing. Hell, I was with a SF unit on the my first tour, and they were giving out silver stars to each other like it was candy. And none of them really faced ANY hostile fire. You are getting Bronze Stars for service confused with Silver Stars. |
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Posted: 9/17/2009 6:55:37 PM EDT
[#32]
Typical ARFCOM couch commandos.
You guys weren't there, were you? If someone who was on the patrol and witnessed the actions of this brave soldier feels that he doesn't deserve the Medal of Honor, please speak up. Shame on the rest of you who disparage the soldier who committed the ultimate sacrifice while the dirt is still fresh on his grave. I don't know what happened, I wasn't there. But I also wasn't on the team that the DOD used to investigate this, nor was I on the panel that approved the awarding of the MOH to this soldier. I had to check my URL, I thought this couldn't be ARFCOM. But then I remember the average poster in GD. |
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Posted: 9/17/2009 6:57:44 PM EDT
[#33]
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It's time to award the medal to a LIVING hero!  THIS +1000000!!!!!!!!!!!! |
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Posted: 9/17/2009 6:58:31 PM EDT
[#34]
Agreed after watching the story this afternoon...first thought was: "isn't that Silver Star material"? No dishonor towards the man or his family, this is just discussion.
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Posted: 9/17/2009 7:03:02 PM EDT
[#35]
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I agree, unfortunately. Silver star |
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Posted: 9/17/2009 7:04:09 PM EDT
[#36]
I don't think the standards for this medal have been watered down at all. In fact, I think the criteria for getting the MOH has never been tougher. There are several cases I can cite from both A-Stan and Iraq that would have resulted in the MOH, had the individual in question died, or if he had participated in earlier conflicts. It seems these days, the only way you see anyone get the MOH is if they die during the course of going above and beyond.
So if you ask me, I think the MOH had been awarded a little too conservatively lately. There are a number of living men who did things that should have resulted in a MOH, men like Brian Chontosh. Going above and beyond is going above and beyond, whether the individual performing the act lives or dies. Being KIA should not be a requirement, but sadly, since Vietnam that seems to be the new standard. |
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Posted: 9/17/2009 7:07:00 PM EDT
[#37]
Quoted: I don't think the standards for this medal have been watered down at all. In fact, I think the criteria for getting the MOH has never been tougher. There are several cases I can cite from both A-Stan and Iraq that would have resulted in the MOH, had the individual in question died, or if he had participated in earlier conflicts. It seems these days, the only way you see anyone get the MOH is if they die during the course of going above and beyond. So if you ask me, I think the MOH had been awarded a little too conservatively lately. There are a number of living men who did things that should have resulted in a MOH, men like Brian Chontosh. Going above and beyond is going above and beyond, whether the individual performing the act lives or dies. Being KIA should not be a requirement, but sadly, since Vietnam that seems to be the new standard. Right off the top of my head. Marine 1st Sergeant Brad Kasal SHOULD have got a MoH for his actions. Without question. If what he did wasn't MoH material, I don't know what is. |
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Posted: 9/17/2009 7:08:37 PM EDT
[#38]
Jeez ya'll really will bitch about anything.
GR |
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Posted: 9/17/2009 7:10:34 PM EDT
[#39]
Quoted:
Bronze Star too. I have seen countless AF officers get awarded them for being a base commander overseas. How heroic. Very devalued of what it really means. As far as this soldier goes, I was not there to see his actions, under fire is a lot diffrent than not. RIP soldier, he died with his boots on saving others. Bronze Star isn't necessarily a medal for valor. |
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Posted: 9/17/2009 7:19:18 PM EDT
[#40]
The MOH has not been watered down. The truth is quite the opposite. It is bullshit that you have to die for it. I wish they gave it to more Surviving heroes.
Commander Howard Gilmore. "Take her down". These were the last words of Commander Howard Gilmore, as he lay wounded on the deck of USS Growler. During the fourth patrol of Growler, Captain Gilmore located and plotted a convoy of Japanese ships. The visibility conditions were very poor as he closed in for a surface attack A Japanese gunboat assigned to protect the convoy turned towards Growler and in the poor light collided with the submarine "head on" at seventeen knots. Growler heeled over from the collision and as it righted its self in the water the gunboat opened fire with its fifty-caliber machine gun killing all the people on the deck and mortally wounding the Captain. The executive officer was below in the conning tower. He immediately took over command and took the submarine down following Captain Gilmore's last order. Growler came to the surface about thirty minutes later to find the damaged gunboat gone along with the rest of the enemy fleet. These are all just from the Navy and Marines alone during the Spanish American War. DEPARTMENT OF THE NAVY –– NAVAL HISTORICAL CENTER 901 M STREET SE –– WASHINGTON NAVY YARD WASHINGTON DC 20374-5060 Navy Medal of Honor: Spanish-American War 1898 These individuals earned the Navy Medal of Honor during the period specified. Their names are followed by their rank and rate, if known, the date of the action and the vessel or unit on which they served. U.S. Navy Recipients BAKER, BENJAMIN F., Coxswain, U.S. Navy., USS Nashville, Cienfuegos, Cuba, 11 May 1898 BARROW, DAVID D., Seaman, U.S. Navy., USS Nashville, Cienfuegos, Cuba, 11 May 1898 BENNETT, JAMES H., Chief Boatswain's Mate, U.S. Navy., USS Marblehead, Cienfuegos, Cuba, 11 May 1898 BEYER, ALBERT, Coxswain, U.S. Navy., USS Nashville, Cienfuegos, Cuba, 11 May 1898 BLUME, ROBERT, Seaman, U.S. Navy., USS Nashville, Cienfuegos, Cuba, 11 May 1898 BRADY, GEORGE F., Chief Gunner's Mate, U.S. Navy., USS Winslow, Cardenas, Cuba, 11 May 1898 BRIGHT, GEORGE WASHINGTON, Coal Passer, U.S. Navy., USS Nashville, Cienfuegos, Cuba, 11 May 1898 CARTER, JOSEPH E., Blacksmith, U.S. Navy., USS Marblehead, Cienfuegos, Cuba, 11 May 1898 CAVANAUGH, THOMAS, Fireman First Class, U.S. Navy., USS Potomac, Nassau, 14 November 1898 CHADWICK, LEONARD, Apprentice First Class, U.S. Navy., USS Marblehead, Cienfuegos, Cuba, 11 May 1898 CHARETTE, GEORGE, Gunner's Mate First Class, U.S. Navy., USS Merrimac, Santiago de Cuba, 02 June 1898 CLAUSEN, CLAUS KRISTIAN, Coxswain, U.S. Navy., USS Merrimac, Santiago de Cuba, 02 June 1898 COONEY, THOMAS C., Chief Machinist, U.S. Navy., USS Winslow, Cardenas, Cuba, 11 May 1898 CROUSE, WILLIAM ADOLPHUS, Watertender, U.S. Navy., USS Concord, Cavite, P.I., 21 May 1898 DAVIS, JOHN, Gunner's Mate Third Class, U.S. Navy., On board U.S.S. Marblehead at Cienfuegos, Cuba, 11 May 1898. DEIGNAN, OS, Coxswain, U.S. Navy., DORAN, JOHN J., Boatswain's Mate Second Class, U.S. Navy., USS Marblehead, Cienfuegos, Cuba, 11 May 1898 DURNEY, AUSTIN J., Blacksmith, U.S. Navy., USS Nashville, Cienfuegos, Cuba, 11 May 1898 EGLIT, JOHN, Seaman, U.S. Navy., USS Nashville, Cienfuegos, Cuba, 11 May 1898 EHLE, JOHN WALTER, Fireman First Class, U.S. Navy., USS Concord, Cavite, P.I., 21 May 1898 ERICKSON, NICK, Coxswain, U.S. Navy., USS Marblehead, Cienfuegos, Cuba, 11 May 1898 FOSS, HERBERT LOUIS, Seaman, U.S. Navy., USS Marblehead, Cienfuegos, Cuba, 11 May 1898 GIBBONS, MICHAEL, Oiler, U.S. Navy., USS Nashville, Cienfuegos, Cuba, 11 May 1898 GILL, FREEMAN, Gunner's Mate First Class, U.S. Navy., USS Marblehead, Cienfuegos, Cuba, 11 May 1898 HART, WILLIAM, Machinist First Class, U.S. Navy., USS Marblehead, Cienfuegos, Cuba, 11 May 1898 HENDRICKSON, HENRY, Seaman, U.S. Navy., USS Marblehead, Cienfuegos, Cuba, 11 May 1898 HOBAN, THOMAS, Coxswain, U.S. Navy., USS Nashville, Cienfuegos, Cuba, 11 May 1898 HOBSON, RICHMOND PEARSON, Lieutenant, U.S. Navy., USS Merrimac, Santiago de Cuba, 03 June 1898 HULL, JAMES, L., Fireman First Class, U.S. Navy., USS Concord, Cavite, P.I., 21 May 1898 ITRICH, FRANZ ANTON, Chief Carpenter's Mate, U.S. Navy., USS Petrel, Manila, P.I., 01 May 1898 JARDINE, ALEXANDER, Fireman First Class, U.S. Navy., USS Potomac, Nassau, 14 November 1898 JOHANSON, JOHN P., Seaman, U.S. Navy., USS Marblehead, Cienfuegos, Cuba, 11 May 1898 JOHANSSON, JOHAN J., Ordinary Seaman, U.S. Navy., USS Nashville, Cienfuegos, Cuba, 11 May 1898 JOHNSEN, HANS, Chief Machinist, U.S. Navy., USS Winslow, Cardenas, Cuba, 11 May 1898 JOHNSON, PETER, Fireman First Class, U.S. Navy., USS Vixen, 28 May 1898 KEEFER, PHILIP B., Coppersmith, U.S. Navy., USS Iowa, Santiago de Cuba, 20 July 1898 KELLY, FRANCIS, Watertender, U.S. Navy., USS Merrimac, Santiago de Cuba, 02 June 1898 KRAMER, FRANZ, Seaman, U.S. Navy., USS Marblehead, Cienfuegos, Cuba, 11 May 1898 KRAUSE, ERNEST, Coxswain, U.S. Navy., USS Nashville, Cienfuegos, Cuba, 11 May 1898 LEVERY, WILLIAM, Apprentice First Class, U.S. Navy., USS Marblehead, Cienfuegos, Cuba, 11 May 1898 MAGER, GEORGE FREDERICK, Apprentice First Class, U.S. Navy., USS Marblehead, Cienfuegos, Cuba, 11 May 1898 MAHONEY, GEORGE, Fireman First Class, U.S. Navy., USS Vixen, 28 May 1898 MAXWELL, JOHN, Fireman Second Class, U.S. Navy., USS Marblehead, Cienfuegos, Cuba, 11 May 1898 MEYER, WILLIAM, Carpenter's Mate Third Class, U.S. Navy., USS Nashville, Cienfuegos, Cuba, 11 May 1898 MILLER, HARRY HERBERT, Seaman, U.S. Navy., USS Nashville, Cienfuegos, Cuba, 11 May 1898. MILLER, WILLARD, Seaman, U.S. Navy., USS Nashville , Cienfuegos, Cuba, 11 May 1898 MONTAGUE, DANIEL, Chief Master-at-Arms, U.S. Navy., USS Merrimac, Santiago de Cuba, 02 June 1898 MORIN, WILLIAM H., Boatswain's Mate Second Class, U.S. Navy., USS Marblehead, Caimanera, Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, 11 May 1898 MULLER, FREDERICK, Mate, U.S. Navy., USS Wompatuck, Manzanillo, Cuba, 30 June 1898 MURPHY, JOHN EDWARD, Coxswain, U.S. Navy., USS Merrimac, Santiago de Cuba, 02 June 1898 NELSON, LAURITZ, Sailmaker's Mate, U.S. Navy., USS Nashville, Cienfuegos, Cuba, 11 May 1898 OAKLEY, WILLIAM, Gunner's Mate Second Class, U.S. Navy., USS Marblehead, Cienfuegos, Cuba, 11 May 1898 OLSEN, ANTON, Ordinary Seaman, U.S. Navy., USS Marblehead, Cienfuegos, Cuba, 11 May 1898 PENN, ROBERT, Fireman First Class, U.S. Navy., USS Iowa, Santiago de Cuba, 20 July 1898 PHILLIPS, GEORGE F., Machinist First Class, U.S. Navy., USS Merrimac, Santiago de Cuba, 02 June 1898 RILLEY, JOHN PHILLIP, Landsman, U.S. Navy., USS Nashville, Cienfuegos, Cuba, 11 May 1898 RUSSELL, HENRY P., Landsman, U.S. Navy., USS Marblehead, Cienfuegos, Cuba, 11 May 1898 SPICER, WILLIAM, Gunner's Mate First Class, U.S. Navy., USS Marblehead, Caimanera, Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, 11 May 1898 SUNDQUIST, AXEL, Chief Carpenter's Mate, U.S. Navy., USS Marblehead, Caimanera, Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, 11 May 1898 SUNDQUIST, GUSTAV A., Ordinary Seaman, U.S. Navy., USS Nashville, Cienfuegos, Cuba, 11 May 1898 TRIPLETT, SAMUEL, Ordinary Seaman, U.S. Navy., USS Marblehead, Caimanera, Guantanamo Bay, Cuba, 11 May 1898 VADAS, ALBERT, Seaman, U.S. Navy. (Named changed to Wadas, Albert.), USS Marblehead, Cienfuegos, Cuba, 11 May 1898 VAN ETTEN, HUDSON, Seaman, U.S. Navy., USS Nashville, Cienfuegos, Cuba, 11 May 1898 VOLZ, ROBERT, Seaman, U.S. Navy., USS Nashville, Cienfuegos, Cuba, 11 May 1898 WILKE, JULIUS A. R., Boatswain's Mate First Class, U.S. Navy., USS Marblehead, Cienfuegos, Cuba, 11 May 1898 WILLIAMS, FRANK, Seaman, U.S. Navy., USS Marblehead, Cienfuegos, Cuba, 11 May 1898 U.S. Marine Corps Recipients CAMPBELL, DANIEL, Private, U.S. Marine Corps., USS Marblehead, Cienfuegos, Cuba, 11 May 1898 FIELD, OSCAR WADSWORTH, Private, U.S. Marine Corps., USS Nashville, Cienfuegos, Cuba, 11 May 1898 FITZGERALD, JOHN, Private, U.S. Marine Corps., Cuzco, Cuba, 14 June 1898 FRANKLIN, JOSEPH JOHN, Private, U.S. Marine Corps., USS Nashville, Cienfuegos, Cuba, 11 May 1898 GAUGHAN, PHILIP, Sergeant, U .S. Marine Corps., USS Nashville, Cienfuegos, Cuba, 11 May 1898 HILL, FRANK, Private, U.S. Marine Corps., USS Nashville, Cienfuegos, Cuba, 11 May 1898 KEARNEY, MICHAEL, Private, U.S. Marine Corps., USS Nashville, Cienfuegos, Cuba, 11 May 1898 KUCHNEISTER, HERMANN WILLIAM, Private, U.S. Marine Corps., USS Marblehead, Cienfuegos, Cuba, 11 May 1898 MacNEAL, HARRY LEWIS, Private, U.S. Marine Corps., USS Brooklyn, Santiago de Cuba, 03 July 1898 MEREDITH, JAMES, Private, U.S. Marine Corps. (Name changed to Patrick F. Ford, Jr ), USS Marblehead, Cienfuegos, Cuba, 11 May 1898 PARKER, POMEROY, Private, U.S. Marine Corps., USS Nashville, Cienfuegos, Cuba, 11 May 1898 QUICK, JOHN HENRY, Sergeant, U.S. Marine Corps., Cuzco, Cuba, 14 June 1898 SCOTT, JOSEPH FRANCIS, Private, U.S. Marine Corps., USS Nashville, Cienfuegos, Cuba, 11 May 1898 SULLIVAN, EDWARD, Private, U .S. Marine Corps., USS Marblehead, Cienfuegos, Cuba, 11 May 1898 WEST, WALTER SCOTT, Private, U.S. Marine Corps., USS Marblehead, Cienfuegos, Cuba, 11 May 1898 |
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Posted: 9/17/2009 7:27:05 PM EDT
[#41]
Quoted:
how the fuck can you guys sit there on your fat asses and think you know better than the DOD. jesus, the guy was awarded the MOH for fucks sake.Aren't they the ones that covered up the Pat Tillman incident? |
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Posted: 9/17/2009 11:55:48 PM EDT
[#42]
Quoted:
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My opinion is I don't like medals, and would be perfectly happy with how the Confederates did it where NOBODY gets a medal for anything. Nobody is special, all of them are heroes. This guy is a hero and committed an extremely valorous act Robert E. Lee believed this. There may have been some merit to it. The thing about medals is that some will go out and do something stupid to try and "win" one. The thing about trying to win a CMH is that it most likely will also "win" you a coffin too. There was a time that wasn't entirely true. But we wouldn't want to do anything to boost morale these days. Kind of defeats the purpose of awards, IMO. I dunno, there are some living cases that certainly deserve it but the Distinguished Service Cross or Silver Star are nothing to thumb your nose at. DSC should be VERY highly respected, that is a very hard medal to get. But I've seen some turds end up getting silver stars. Some Silver star awardees definitely earned it, and some that certainly didn't. When I was in Iraq, the guys who died got an automatic silver star, which I agree with, and in that light, the silver star does deserves alot of respect. However, other guys got silver star's just for being in Iraq and being of officer rank or SFC or above, and earned it doing they NOTHING valorous. So which I don't think warrants much respect if that is the case for earning it. I've heard a lot of Silver Star citations read, and I've never heard of a single one (Navy or USMC) that wasn't well deserved. If some folks are awarding it inappropriately, that's a really bad thing in my opinion. I've seen both sides. Where guys REALLY did earn them, and other guys get them for just being a leader of a platoon or company, even if they never themselves got shot at or had to actually LEAD their troops while under attack. The Silver Star should be a very respected award, but sadly, some people seem to get it because of their rank. I'm finding this but really hard to accept. Do you have any first hand knowledge of this. I thought the Bronze Star was watered down enough. Using the Silver Star for anything but extraordinary valor, though, is pure bullshit. I'd be raising holy hell, as it dishonors others who have earned it. The Bronze Star thing goes both ways. Its always been a medal for senior officers ans NonComs. I know Gunnys who've been awarded it (with Combat V) for absolutely nothing, while Lance Corporals have been given NAMs for shit they should have gotten Silver Stars for. |
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Posted: 9/18/2009 12:14:17 AM EDT
[#43]
I would like to know where Gunny Hathcock's Medal of Honor is.
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Posted: 9/18/2009 12:24:38 AM EDT
[#44]
The people who put him in for the award watched him die trying to protect his unit buddies.
I'm sure, after they retrieved the body, they all sat around thinking, while it was the ULTIMATE sacrifice, it just wasn't enough and started a grassroots movement to get it downgraded. Yup, I'm certain that's what's happening here and it's not just some fucking assholes who don't know when to STFU. |
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Posted: 9/18/2009 12:50:20 AM EDT
[#45]
Everyone that was there, and beared witness, say "eye". Everyone that was silent just now can stay that way.
Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 9/18/2009 1:23:40 AM EDT
[#46]
You are "AWARDED" the Medal of Honor, you do not "WIN" it.
"Above and beyond the call of duty" this is subjective. As many previous entries have pointed out, the citation does not describe or explain everything that happened. All Jimmy Doolittle did was lead some bombers off the deck of an aircraft carrier and bomb Japan. George Custer's brother, Thomas Custer, all he did was: FIRST AWARD award "Capture of flag on 10 May 1863." SECOND AWARD Place and date: At Sailor Creek , Va, April 1865. Date of issue: 26 May 1865. Citation: "2d Lt. Custer leaped his horse over the enemy's works and captured 2 stands of colors, having his horse shot from under him and receiving a severe wound." None of us were there, so get off your high horse and and go back to playing ninja at the mall. If you watch the people that received the Medal of Honor, they all say the same thing. They don't believe that they did any heroic thing, they wear it for those who died and for those more deserving. It all comes down to having your heroism seen and reported and being written up for the Medal of Honor. |
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Posted: 9/18/2009 1:55:54 AM EDT
[#47]
Not to take anything away from him but I kinda think it is getting watered down a bit too. As far as living people I can think of at least three: Dick Winters, Marcus Luttrell, and Brian R. Chontosh .
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Posted: 9/18/2009 2:08:09 AM EDT
[#48]
Quoted: Not to take anything away from him but I kinda think it is getting watered down a bit too. As far as living people I can think of at least three: Dick Winters, Marcus Luttrell, and Brian R. Chontosh . Not to take anything away from him? You're saying you think he doesn't deserve the Medal of Honor. I think that is trying to take a lot away from him. In your mind, what's the minimum number of enemies one has to kill to deserve the Medal of Honor? Is there a minimum number of wounds that must be sustained, or the number of friendly troops that he has to save? I guess he didn't try to save enough people. Besides this guy, can you point out who else you think doesn't deserve the Medal of Honor that was awarded one? |
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Posted: 9/18/2009 2:15:11 AM EDT
[#49]
Just a sidenote: The Medal of Honor has not been awarded to any living persons in the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, only posthumously. In addition, the percentage of persons receiving the medal in these wars has been significantly lower than in previous wars (one out of a million vs. one out of one-hundred thousand). |
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Posted: 9/18/2009 2:16:30 AM EDT
[#50]
Those of you who keep saying that believing someone's actions merit "only" a Silver Start is somehow "disparaging" of their sacrifice should be the ones shutting the fuck up. Nobody is questioning whether the man is a hero deserving of honors, so the insinuations are getting old.
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