[ARCHIVED THREAD] - M4Carbine.net (Page 4 of 6)
The carbine course I had fun it was not that instructive. It's the ones I hated being at that I learned something. |
wow.  if anyone needs me i'll be over at M4C... i need to purge my brain of this nonsense... 
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From my end of it, it seems to me that the "gun snob" comments are levied in response to certain owners shitting all over a guy's "lesser" purchase, that he's otherwise quite happy with. |
Take one and have your eyes forcibly opened. I just did... |
Oh man. While I disagree with the whole "Colt and LMT are better" argument, I beg of you...no matter what kind of rifle you buy you should know it inside and out and you should TRAIN, TRAIN, and TRAIN SOME MORE with it. Go shoot a practical carbine course and I would hope that it would open your eyes... |
I usually manage to do both. In a Vickers course you will have some fun. ...you will also spend a bunch of time licking the windows and getting called on it. Hell, one of his favorite drills is called "The Humbler"....getting kicked in the nuts is no fun. EDIT -- ...and neither is running a stress course in 100 degree weather with body armor on and a partner who somehow manages to get all of his spent brass in the neck opening of your shirt. |
I had no fun at the Vickers course. That's a good thing. I was too busy trying to get it right to have fun. I take that back, he did compliment me and my Browning Pro-9 that was fun. But the rest of the time I couldn't relax to have fun. |
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The most common phase heard by those leaving a training coruse is, "Wow, I didn't know what I didn't know." I can assure you that proper training is very important in all aspects of our lives. Learning to drive properly, learning to read and how to operate in society at large. I think I understand your point, and that is a typically .civ like me is going to huker down in the bedroom and dial 911, and for most people that is correct. But what about instances when you must venture out? What if the children sleep on a different floor or end of the house? you can't expect them to bunker down and defend their position you gotta go to them. What about the small noises heard? You certainly can't call popo everytime a small noise is heard. A training course will begin the foudation skill set that will allow to learn the skills required to survive the unexpected encounter. |
Well, blast, these guys got it covered ... as every new American Dairy product that Grant trots out is very well received by these three ... of course a lot of them have our proprietay vertical rings on them, but hey, who's counting ...
Followed by lots of these from the same bunch ...
Not much room left for LT to wiggle around over there, plus (and ironically) Grant recently locked my account for a few days over me trying to wiggle a little. I give up. I'm in good company though, as I join Pat Rogers on the "Who's Who" list of TOS castaways. Win some and you lose some. Thankfully, we have a number of users there that know what we do, and what we have done, and what we are capable of, and they stand in for us on TOS on a regular basis (you guys know who you are and all of us here at LaRue Tactical see and appreciate you - thanks). Mark LaRue |
Malfunction drills, hold over, moving off line, weapon retention, who needs it? Bah! |
 Rosenrot, What the hell does being or not being in a combat zone have to do with predictable functionality of ones firearm? You make zero sense. Truly. |
Most people don't walk around with an M4 slung in front of them so again I think its pointless to take a carbine class. However being most people carry a pistol it would only make sense TO take a class. |
There are some good folks that post on that board; some true professionals in fact. Some also post on this board. But, honestly, I can hardly spend more than a few minutes lurking around over there, and find the posers to be worse there than here simply because of their effort to not be posers. If you have to constantly flaunt something, then guess what you are? As for that boards owner, I find him to be one of the most annoying asshole's I've never had the displeasure to meet. Despite all his talk, he's a money maker pure and simple. |
That's pretty much how everybody describes their 1st course with LAV. I believe the dominant sentiment is something along the lines of "I felt like I was trying to drink from a firehose". They get a bit more manageable the more of them you do....and if you catch him in a good mood you may even see LAV demonstrate some whiteboy dance moves.  The "anti-aircraft gun" is my favorite. |
I can read a manual for 15 min and learn how my weapon functions. I don't need to pay $500 and take a class to learn how to clear a jam or know how a weapon operates. |
I've had the opportunity to meet the people behind a lot of the screen-names on M4C.....I'd be real hesitant to classify them as "posers". |
If you want to shoot an AR for shits and giggles then spend the money on ammo. You are at a serious disadvantage in a real fight. I've never shot anything that didn't have fur or feathers, but I have seen "I shoot all the time" guys end up splattered with paint from their own guns in force on force again and again. It may not be a gunfight, but short of getting shot at it's at least some kind of simulation (and I'm a scaredy cat who doesn't want to get shot at for real ). Shooting at the range is kind of like going to the batting cage, a few times a year, it doesn't mean you know how to play baseball.edit At least I play T ball
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Not that I want to get into this argument because it really is mostly pointless, but... Statistically, having seen hundreds of Bushmaster M4s in use down range, they do have more problems than a professional user who's life is on the line would prefer to deal with. Poorly staked and loose gas keys and canted FSBs that made BZO a chore or impossible were encountered regularly. |
Ever seen "Better Off Dead" where they rebuild a completely junked Camaro from the owner's manual in the glove box? 
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For me, it's a chance to get a break from the family for a boys outing. It's also a good opportunity to learn new curse words from LAV. I won't even mention the positives of learning about your skills and weapon systems, while being pushed to the max. John Wayne - looking forward to meeting you this weekend. I hope I don't slow ya'll down! John |
Don't forget to bring some extra ammo to play with the SCAR! |
What did Pat get the boot for? |
The code of conduct at M4C is much different than ARFCOM's COC. Mods and staffers there have a LOT more freedom in how they operate than mods and staffers here. As a moderator in GD I'm bound by a strict code of conduct and a strict regimen that limits the enforcement options available to me. This can be a good thing or a bad thing depending on what perspective you have. The same applies to the protection of Industry Professionals on the site. It's different philosophies aimed at achieving different results. EDIT -- of course, that's my personal, unprofessional opinion, not the position of the ARFCOM management (I'm a minor-league whipping boy in the ARFCOM scheme of things) or the M4C management. |
Don't forget they also consider "Best and Added Value" these days as well. This can mean higher quality, faster delivery, service life and so on. The additional features if you want to call them that are just known fialure points in the AR platform that have been addressed (or at least attempted to be addressed). Mil spec also means there is some external regulation on QC proceedures and materials that could be used by a Mfg to offer a less expensive but similar product. Respectfully I agree with John Wayne77 |
Member there also, along with several other boards. |
Will there you go. We all appreicate your insightful expierence in the whole three years you have owned an AR with no training. I've been shooting and owning AR's longer than you have been alive. In those early years I thought I knew it all and could wield an AR on a high level. After attending many training courses I discovered the only person I was fooling was myself. You can continue to think training is pointless. But you are wrong. You will always be wrong in this regard. |
Hijack I am going to Storm Mountains HRPI Course next week and I am so stoked. |
Dunno the story, but I would have thought Pat would have surely gotten cut a little slack, especially given the fact that the same Grant had gotten out of one of Pat's past classes pretty much unscathed, after he sent a cold range AD round into the rocks right between his own legs.  IIRC, that AD round was written off as an unfortunate cook-off ... you make the call.  In all fairness, LT didn't pony-up and pay to advertise over there, and TOS does consider that a $ticking point. IIRC, his fees are based upon what the biggest firearms forum charges (AR15.com) but with only a very small percentage of the traffic (>10%) ... and since we're milling this stuff out of a solid doing Aerospace work at what some (not all) consider blacksmith prices, then it just didn't make fiscal sense to us here to go that route, not to mention it would have been an "in-your-face" insult to the Avilas, which, unlike some, we eschew insulting the Avila family. Some would call it between a rock and a hard place ... either way, we made our nest ...  ML |
sorry to hijack but is Grant still a LT dealer?  especially after he was building his "own" version of the LT stealth uppers using the M4 cut "dealer only" stealth upper receivers intended for 6.8SPC builds.............
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HOLY COW This guy Grant seems like an instant classic
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Blasphemy!  In regards to the training comment, having the tool to defend yourself/family is only 1 step in the right direction. Anyone who dismisses professional training so quickly and broadly like that worries me. Knowledge is power and there are AMAZING opportunities to train out there. If M4C continues to push that, then they are doing something right and admirable. EVERYONE should take a few QUALITY courses period. Yeah, it's just my opinion. M4C has done well in spite of Grant's actions, which is a tribute to the people there. I find it humorous that he tries to pass the site off as a top firearm site when their traffic is small, typical of a new site, and competing with AR15Armory (good guys!) more than ARFCOM. Look at how inflated the "online" count is compared to posts and you'll see the guy will do anything to sell you something. As to the site "war", there is no war. Grant has learned not to push things and have his past rehashed in public and we have no desire to bring up things for the sake of the community. This thread got hijacked in a few directions and outside of a few comments on the ownership there (ie Grant/G&R) there's little attacking and no need to get excited. I know people want to protect their friendships and that a number of those there feel I'm an evil, lying bastard, but as long as Grant's goes to other site's and badmouths ARFCOM or my family, I think I'm entitled to at least make a few points here. If you know anything about the man you know HE will attack anyone if it improves his business, regardless of right, wrong, or morality. Sorry, that's just fact. Now go sign up for some training or EdSr will come to your house and take you himself! 
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You know, I've spent some time reading M4C today (inspired by this thread), and you know what I think? I think it's an informative gun board, not much different than any other. I like their tech sections. GD is boring. I don't understand the resentment, honestly. They seem friendly enough, for the most part. If I had to complain, I'd say that many members go a little overboard in listing their bonafides (or lack thereof). Just say what you've got to say, and call it good. Anyway, I found lots of info there, and the training class AAR's are decent reads if you're thinking about plopping down money on a class. Some guys (like our own JW777, in fact) do a great job taking notes and relaying what they learned to the rest of the forum. They're "different", but so is every forum. I think the place is just peachy, personally. I'm not particularly interested in posting there, but there are some interesting threads to read. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - M4Carbine.net (Page 4 of 6)
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