My contact down at the WTC tells me that 5000+ firemen are on their way down to "ground zero" for a demonstration.

All working officers have been mobilized to the scene!!!

I really hope this remains peaceful. Yes, the firemen are angry, and rightly so. But we are all on the same team. I'm closely monitoring the news (and neglecting cleaning my firearms) for updates. Stand by...
[usa]

i feel silly but....

what are the firemen demonstrating/protesting about?

i don't watch the news.

OffRoad

Basically the FD is Pissed Off because the city wants to limit the number of firemen searching through the rubble down to 25! The city is stating that this is for safety reasons.
The firemen believe that they should take as long as possible with as many guys as possible to find ANY remains of the victims, instead of having construction companies roll in there to clear out the scene.

My personal opinion is that the firemen should take as long as necessary to find ANY remains of victims.

As one firefighter put it:

"...would you want your loved-one's remains to be shovelled into a garbage truck and taken to a garbage dump?"

I heard there's a 100 acre field where debris is placed and then searched for any remains.

I would think it's good to both search before removal and then after.

Is the issue that the city only wants to [b]pay[/b] for 25 firemen a shift, or that they'll only allow 25 firemen, whether on the clock or volunteers, access to the pile?

They probably want to hurry up and get things rolling on removing more debris.  They can do it faster without looking for remains.  As it is now, it will probably take what? over a year to clear out all the debris?  Guess they are just anxious to get it finished.

The news and Drudge are reporting that several FDNY have been arrested by the PD (Boooo Hisssss)

I side with the FD on this one.

Basically it comes down to money, this mess is costing the city megabucks with all the overtime. Can't wait to see how the city will find a way to get more money out of us in the burbs.

I shoot with a lot of FDNY guys, watch your butt  Waverunner.



Geoff Ross

Geoff,
 
  Let me restate that I'm all for the NYFD, they should be PO'ed.
 
  Also I noticed that you are new to this board, I'm a regular patrol officer in the NYPD that has been at Ground Zero on a regular basis since Sept. 11. Not as much as the Emergency Services Unit guys on this board but enough to know what the hell is going on there. I have nothing against firemen, THEY ARE MY HEROS TOO!

  Giuliani is making a horrible decision.

Man those Firemen and the LEO's too havn't even had a enough time to grieve.  They should just let things cool off for awhile and go back to work in another week. That is over 250 of their buddies. And that is something. Guilliani just needs to declare a break! some time off.

Benjamin

New guy. NFI, but maybe you better get to know the people here before you speak. Why don't you take a look around the site before you start mouthing off. Hmmmm?

Just a thought.

Sherm

Wave the moderator........movin up Ray?????


Palmer told it the way it is.....If I am told to not let the firemen through and I let the firemen through, then that firemen can cost me my job.  I am 100% ALL FOR the firemen staying at the scene, but who is going to pay my rent and tuition once Im suspended withpout pay pending a departmental trial????

I want to reiterate that I am 110% behind what the firemen are doing and I wantthem to stay at the scene, but they have to take us into consideration.  We have orders and a job to do.  They should think about what they are doing and lets not make cops or firemen bad guys in the media.

We are BOTH on the same side, and I think that all firemen are heros, they do things that I certainly would not care to do every day.....

We gotta watch each others backs.....  Stay safe!!!!

Guys, I understand the pain of those family members that loss love ones in the attack and at the WTC, but what do the fireman expect to find under all that debris? There is 6 stories of a building left under the debris and the fire has been burning since day 1. The remains that they have been pulling out have been pieces, when was the last time that recognizable, whole baody was pulled out of that scene? IMO, I would not want to see a loved one come out in that condition. I would rather remeber them for the way they were. Maybe it is the closure? I don't know, someone educate me on why you want to spend more time on trying to dig through all that debris to maybe find an arm here a leg over there. Those bodies have got to have burned among recognition if nothing else. I think that the city needs to move one and the world need to move on as well and maybe this is the mayor's thinking. And that can not be done until everything is cleared out and new buildings are put up and people that have lost their jobs can go back to work. It a terrible decision to have to make on the mayor part, but someone has to do it. And at a time like this, we can not be at war among ourselves.

My $.02 worth. NYPD, you have to do what you have been commanded of. One mistake, one breech of the perimiter and all HELL could break lose. Stand Tall, I am praying for everyone.


Justice_Keeper

Blue Flu

I was there last week at ground zero when all this began. They hit a hot spot and the big cranes could not see the firemen for all the smoke and steam. It is a safety reason more than anything. I understand how they feel but do we need more deaths. Theyare in the way with so many. Just my opinion from somethere been there fisrt hand

As some of you know NYC PD is about the lowest paid you can get with respect to the cost of living. Some of the officers who lost their lives, with less than five years of service, were making about 30k a year. After uncle sam, dues, city tax, city waiver, insurance, etc you are lucky to bring home $600 every two weeks. This maybe a decent wage if a house cost 70-90k however most homes are selling for well over 300k in nyc and in the suburbs.  Taxes alone on Long Island are 5k +. We are truly the worlds largest volunteer police department.  

This is not good! If theres one thing I learned about fireman its they are ABSOLUTELY FEARLESS! There is nothing on this planet that scares a fireman. I cant imagine 5000 pissed off ones!You guys be careful! Y'all are on the same team.

I have more respect for firefighters than any other public servants.  The guys got stones!!  They were my heros BEFORE Sept. 11 and still are!

That being said, why are THEIR fallen comrades any different than cops or workers in the buildings, even passengers in the planes??

After fire, crushing and normal decomposition I doubt any of the victims look remotely like people.  They deserve to have their remains, when located, to be removed with dignity but the task needs to move on.  That job needs to begin and end every shift with a prayer for all those lost.  Then do the grisly, miserable job.

Still think a picture of that smoking pile belongs on every news show to remind people of the horror that took place there.  We MUST [b]NEVER[/b] FORGET!

This made about as much sense as wearing a tank top and shorts in -10 degree weather. You want to explain yourself?

Justice_Keeper

Stay safe Wave and please tell ALL on both sides to refrain from any violence.

If anybody wants to trow punches this can be aranged in a boxing ring!

if you don't mind me asking, what were you doing at ground zero?

your choking me,,300k ? volunteer? BS ,,sure taxes are high outside of the city on long island,,but you can get homes for a whole lot less than 300 k,,,also starting pay sucks and it does take 5 years to reach top pay,,not the 3 years when I went on "The Job" ,,ok so the surrounding counties make way to much money,,compared to the city,,but you are exaggerating. jion the reserves if you want a free education and beside the city will give you full pay while you do your monthly weekends and 2 week stint,,also look at it this way by the time you retire after 20 years you will have had to have done only 18 years and,,when you subtract reserve time,,correct me if I'm wrong,,I lived it...

IronMike, Waverunner is one of our Boys in Blue. Try and get to the Calverton on Sunday and we'll introduce each other. [:D]

Oh boy, here we go, a true believer in the job....must be one of the 'blessed' ones..... Tell me Iron Mike, is your daddy an inspector or a chief?  

And in case anyone wants to know why FDNY should still be at the scene, today they found an elevator, peeled the roof off, and recovered 10-12 more complete bodies.......Any more dumb questions.....


FDNY.....GOD BLESS!!!!!  F@CK GUILIANI!!!!!

Man my advice to you who want cheap living and A Fire Department is this.  Drop what you are dong and transfer to Oklahoma.  4 Bedrooms/ 2 Baths/ 2 Car garage Living room/ dinning room
start at about $125,000 and perhaps better if you find the right deal.

Benjamin

People are Nice, hunting and fishing are good. People are very very nice.  Good Schools & Good families in Moore, Good Families in Southwest OKC , Moore, Norman, and North OKC/ Edmond.  

Moore is funny.  There are a bunch of BMW's and Mercedes running around town. The town is growing and the money is flowing in. But the LEO's are great and keep the trash out by and large. Mostly Middle Income however.  I know about 6,000 people in Moore out of a town of 45,000. So it is a far cry from the outskirts on the west side of Austin , Texas (multi million dolllar homes) but we have some of those to.  Come live the good life, we want good people here.  Hunting and Rifle clubs over in TriCity(between Moore/Norman/Noble) and in Yukon. Home of Garth Brooks.

Benjamin

Ohhh, I know!  Now if you can just convince my wife to make the move. I almost convinced her to move to Fla. and then to AZ. but her big mouthed sister stuck her huge honker into the discussions and ruined it [:(!]

But I did TELL the wife, when I retire in six years, I'am getting the hell out of NY, with or without her!

1' Blue flu... when all the leo call in sick
2' This is about overtime in a big way
3' The city wants to bill the fed for recovery cost and not pay the fd.
4' It is amazing how fast it all reverts to the almighty buck.
5' If your son was burried so badly that all they would ever recover was some blood stained sand would you be willing to spend lots of extra big money to make the recovery of this sand pc or would you move on?
6' and last this is going to be very big trouble when either union gets to contract time and asks the other for support. If I were blue i would have the flu!

Slow down here! Iron mike states that less than 5 years of service is less than 30K [b]NOT 300K![/b]in pay
I have 3 years on the job and I'll mail you my pay stubs to prove it.
Hell if NYPD made 300K a year, I'd be out of my parents house already, married to my girlfriend, and driving around in some nice transportation. But that's not the point of this thread.

I may still be considered a rookie in NYPD circles, but I do stand up for ALL cops. That being said I also hold firemen in very high regard for what they do daily. It's sad that the powers that be are putting us at odds.

I think the main issue is you have a group of guys (NYFD) who are not rational.  They are focused on one thing, finding those bodies.  They have been focused on that for 2 months.  They must be exhausted.  We know they are in shock due to losing multiple friends and associates, and now to top it off they are pissed too.  As cops, NYPD has to stand there and do their jobs too, and everyone is in pain.

This thread reminded me, 10 years ago this week I lost a good friend in a boating accident in a BASS tournament.  It was a horrible experience.  Half the guys there were related to him and his son was in another boat that day.  Sun was out, temp was cold, wind chill was brutal.  I was on the scene 5 minutes after it happened. He had become neutrally buoyant with heavy clothes on and water clarity was 6 inches at best due to wind.  At the end of that long day when I towed his cracked up boat to the launch, a local news team was waiting, and his son was standing with me.  We all wanted to kill the news people.  We had not found his body yet.  A terrible day.

We all took off from work to run draglines because we knew the local DNR was useless.  After a week, we were the ones who found his body.  We were exhausted, and still in shock.  We had been totally consumed with finding his body.  That was a search for just 1 body, and it lasted just 1 week.

The next weekend, I saw my father in law get run over, and I saved his ass with first aid and kept him from going into shock until EMT's arrived.  The month prior to that my Dad had passed away, and for a long time I just buried myself in my work and taking care of family.  I was only 27 years old and I was fried.


When does it end for these FDNY guys?  We need to make sure they get closure their way.

Thank you for your story...Amen.

Well put, I couldnt have said it better myself.

OK, Here is my 2 cents worth:

#1: There wasn't any rioting going on at ground zero. Some of the Firefighters tried to push past the NYPD and get into the work area and then were being handcuffed by the PD which pissed off some of the other FF's and they struck a few officer out of anger.

#2: There is a movie coming out shortly that I have seen a lot of talk about around here called Blackhawk Down. I haven't heard anybody here criticize the Rangers and Delta Force operators for going in just to recover 1 single pilots dead body. They lost I believe 8 and another 70something wounded.
 All that just for a single body recovery. All that because the Ranger creed says that they will never leave a fallen comrade behind.
 That is same mentality we in the fire service have. If one of our own goes down inside, we will do whatever it takes to see that they are brung out with the utmost respect and in the most dignified manner possible. That means carried out by brothers. Not scooped up with the trash and dumped in a landfill and then maybe found when the vultures are sorting through the trash.
 There is not a brotherhood any tighter, just short of specops, than that of firefighters. during our careers most of us will spend better that one third of our lives with our brothers. Living, eating, sleeping, and working in very close quarters with each other. Many of our families also spend alot of time together while we are at work and when we are off we all do things together.
 Rant mode off: Just wanting people to understand why the firefighters are so adimit about being at ground zero.

556mm

Disclaimer: I know I'm going to get flamed for this. So be it.
__________________________________

I understand the feelings on both sides. I understand the firefighters and I understand the cops.

Nobody can tell me that they don't want the NYFD there because of the danger. They run into burning buildings for a living, for heaven's sake. I can't take anyone seriously who says they're takind such a position due to potential dangers. There's no doubt in my mind that it's all about the money.

Further, I'm always wary when someone says "hey, I'm behind you guys 100% but I gots orders." I've got a wife, kids, mortgage, car payments and all kinds of other bills too. I know how it is. But I have to ask... How will these people react if/when they are ordered to go door to door and confiscate privately owned firearms? I can't help but feel that they'll take that same attitude - "I don't like it but I've got to look out for my pension." If your job forces you to make choices contrary to what you know is right, perhaps you should be considering a career change.

If the police and the firefighters are truly on the same side, then perhaps they should join forces against the person(s) responsible for pitting them against each other. How much better would we all feel if we could honestly say that we believed the people in law enforcement, at all levels, were of sterling character? Can anyone here say that?

I don't hate cops. I've known and respected some of them. On the other hand, I can't afford to trust them simply by virtue of the the fact that they have a badge.

I never liked Giuliani. He's a liberal's liberal and always has been. He's stageringly popular now but I really don't know why. I can't see that he's really done anything, but I don't live there. I do know this - If ALL the cops sided with the firefighters, there's not much the mayor could do about it.

Were I in a position to offer advice to someone in NYC, it would be "GO SOMEWHERE ELSE! Somewhere where you can earn more money and it's cheaper to live." That doesn't narrow the field much at all!
______________________________________________
That's it. I've got my asbestos boxers on so you all may flame at will.

Moraliy and reality are facing off here once again.  I'm sure most of the cops want to help the Fire fighters.  They definitely don't want to stand in their way, then the order comes from up top to keep them back and let the big machines do there job.  Damned if ya do, damned if ya don't.

Agreed 100%.





Absolutely, I'AM for the firemen, my brothers are still down there as well. But, my familys' welfare comes before a firemen who wants to help at ground zero. If I did let them through and get suspended without pay, I really don't think the UFA(fire union) will pay for my mortgage and put food on the table while I'am out suspended. We can't pick and choose what orders we will follow and what we won't follow, thats how people get hurt, if it's legal and not unconstitutional, then we must.





Here we go AGAIN. This type of question comes up every other week it seems and it's getting old. [:X*]I have NEVER been given an unlawful order and would never follow one. Might an order like that be given in the future, maybe, I can't speak for every LEO, but myself and EVERY LEO I know would NOT follow an order to go door to door confiscating firearms, thats ridiculas. Thats the day I walk off the job.




Nor did I.


Not flaming you, your point is taken, I partially disagree, thats a discussion.[:)]

Reflex II on a Foward Carry Handle Mount. Lines up with iron sites.
[img]wsphotofews.excite.com/017/Mz/9k/fp/Ll98163.jpg[/img]

Definitely a tough call, but it isn't a firefighters job to dig through rubble day in and day out now that the emergency is over.  They are a very expensive and specialized workforce and they are needed elsewhere, especially if there are more attacks or large scale emergencies.  As much as it sounds good that they recover their own falling brethren, etc. it smacks of one thing--wanting to remain in the limelight.  These guys have received national attention for their bravery and heroic deeds (no one mentions that they are paid specifically to risk their lives in times of need and to do any less would be criminal on their part).  My take is that they want to keep the limelight as long as possible and they are flexing their new found political power, knowing full well it is going to be short-lived.  Milk it for all its worth.

Pursuit of the almighty buck isn't all wrong--how long would an all-volunteery FDNY survive, after all?

The difference between the Rangers in Somalia and the FDNY is that the objective of the Rangers was something that could be accomplished. There are going to be 100s of bodies from the WTC that are no longer in existence. It sucks, and I have no clue how badly they must feel, but its time to move on. Yes, it may be primarily driven by the costs, but that is in fact a legitimate concern. If we go through that rubble 5 gal bucket by 5 gal bucket, its going to take years to clear that spot off. I personally thing the memories of those brave people who dies there would be better served by getting new buildings or a memorial built in the spot ASAP.

Just my 2 cents.

Aviator  [img]www.milpubs.com/aviator.gif[/img]

Why do you even have to take this conversation into this context?  What the hell does stopping protestors from entering a frozen area have to do with taking peoples guns away?????  I have news for you, Police Departments are para-military organizations...when you are given a lawful order, you follow it or you get suspended on the spot.  Like it or not, thats just the way it is.  I dont necessarily haveto agree with the bosses decision, but if its a lawful order, I have to do it.

Take your anti-cop attitude, along with your "Im gonna give them my guns over my dead body" bullshit agenda, and take it to another thread.  This post has absolutely NOTHING to do with what youre talking about...


BTW, We ALL hate Guiliani.  He is a self serving little tyrant that thinks he is God.  He believes that it will be HIS way or NO way.  Yes he has been a great mayor for NYC, but for the individual worker he just SUCKS!!!!

Cops and Firemen are very much alike and on the same team, again I say that I think that the FDNY should think again about pushing their way past the police and punching NYPD bosses for getting in their way...it creates  one more problem that neither of us needs to deal with right now.....

AND YES, FDNY should be the ones carrying FDNY bodies out of GROUND HERO......

I don’t HAVE to take it anywhere; it's just the context that I see when I examine the issue. When someone says that they will follow the law even when it contradicts what they believe is right, that says to me that they think the law is wrong in that case. Obviously, the world isn't always black and white, and everyone draws the line at a different place. I'd have thought this was self-evident.

I have news for you, Police Departments are para-military organizations...

View Quote

The crux of the problem: Define "lawful." If you define that as an order, which is not repugnant to the Constitution, then I'm inclined to agree with you. The nature of the system, on the other hand, virtually guarantees that almost any order given will be "lawful" even if it's unconstitutional. The ban on radar detectors is a prime example. SCOTUS ruled some time back that American citizens were free to receive any radio signals beamed in their direction yet a few states stubbornly cling to bans on radar detectors. At one time in this country, slavery was legal. In WW II Germany, it was lawful to round up people based on their ethnicity or political beliefs and execute them at mass graves or kill them slowly in slave labor camps. Your pious indignation not withstanding, legality has absolutely [b]NOTHING[/b] to do with morality or constitutionality. The above issues do, however, carry varying degrees of consequences and, as I said, different people draw the line at different places. It’s pretty clear, however, that no matter how grievous an order, there are people out there who would be willing to carry it out.

Take your anti-cop attitude, along with your "Im gonna give them my guns over my dead body" bullshit agenda, and take it to another thread.  This post has absolutely NOTHING to do with what youre talking about...

View Quote

Did I say that?
Nope.
Your predilection to putting words in my keyboard indicates that you've got your own 'issues' to deal with. Perhaps you should tackle them before you go off on me. You obviously can't stand what you perceive to be criticism, constructive or otherwise - A consequence of an obvious "us vs. them" attitude and your own, private little version of race baiting. Aside from that, the above comment isn't worth dignifying with a response.

BTW, We ALL hate Guiliani.  He is a self serving little tyrant that thinks he is God.  He believes that it will be HIS way or NO way.  Yes he has been a great mayor for NYC, but for the individual worker he just SUCKS!!!!

View Quote

On this, at least, we can agree.

Cops and Firemen are very much alike and on the same team, again I say that I think that the FDNY should think again about pushing their way past the police and punching NYPD bosses for getting in their way...it creates  one more problem that neither of us needs to deal with right now.....

AND YES, FDNY should be the ones carrying FDNY bodies out of GROUND HERO......

View Quote

And this is an apt portrait of why I view this thread in the context I mentioned. It would appear that you are faced with an uncomfortable decision. All I did was happen to note which side you came down on.

Ok Muzzlebreak, maybe I went overboard for a second there......Lets take the fact that I personally think that anyone (minus certain exceptions, ie:violent felons) should be able to carry a handgun.  I really do think that its your right to be able to carry a gun.

NYS and NYC law states otherwise.  As a matter of fact, it is damn near impossible to get a carry permit in NYC, they make it so complicated and drawn out, that most people just give up in the middle of the process.

If I stop a car for lets say a red light, and theres a gun on the seat, and the guy doesnt have a licence, just because its my personal opinion that he SHOULD be able to carry that gun, doesnt mean I can walk away from it based on my personal beliefs? A police officer is not a civilian, we are obligated to take action.

I am in New York City.  Do you know how many times I have seen a storeowner/homowner shoot an armed burglar/robber/rapist inside the owners store/home?  As much as I hate it, the guy has to get collared for the illegal gun.  What can I do, tell my boss no?  Fifteen detectives, Crime scene unit, Evidence collection Unit, Emergency services, Sergeants, Luitenants, platoon commanders, Commanding Officers, Duty Captains, all present at the same scene, and I am supposed to ignore the
fact that the guy had an illegal gun? It sucks, the guy was just defending himself, but I cant put my career (as pathetic as it is) on the line because the guy broke the law.

The guy was 110% right in defending himself, but he broke the law, I cant ignore that.  Dont compare what happened with FDNY & NYPD to the government showing up at your door to take your guns away, it just isnt the same thing.

And BTW, I dont have a choice as to which side I will come down on.  Beleve me, if there were no Chiefs standing there (there were 2 or 3), if it was just cops, sgts, lts, and firemen/fire bosses, there would have been a different outcome.  Unfortunately a chief is used to people listening to him when he gives an order.  When the firemen told him to go f himself and kept going past him, he physically tried to stop them (as is his job) and some fireman punched him in the face.  Thats where it all went bad.

Beleive me, every cop there would probably have liked to punch that chief in the face, but we cant do that.  We would have loved to stand side by side next to the Fire dept.  The firemen lost that option with THEIR actions.

(part I)
Hunduh,

I understand your situation and it's not my intent to slam you for doing your job. Even though we haven't met, I'm fairly confident that if one of those duty captains or detectives ordered you to take our hypothetical homeowner out back and execute him for having that illegal gun, you'd probably refuse.

NYC has dug itself into a hole and can't seem to find its way out. IMHO, their gun laws and those of some other cities and states are just, plain unconstitutional. But they keep reelecting the same dumb-ass bastards that took away their rights in the first place. In a very big way, it's their own damned fault.


I do not like being suspicious of the police. I doubt anyone else does, either. I'd much rather feel as though we're all on the same side. On those occasions when I've trained with LEO's I've been more ... accepted (for lack of a better word) ... than some schmoe on the street. It's tremendous shame that the police and the law-abiding public can't feel that way more often.

Has the subject been beat to death? Well, maybe... in this arena. But most people don't ever think about such things and I think it's important that they do. I think cops should examine the issue for themselves, personally. "What will I or won't I do?" And I think John Q. Six-pack needs to SERIOUSLY consider the conundrum he may find himself in if he keeps selling out his liberty in exchange for various promises from politicians. IMHO, it's the politicians who created the gulf between law enforcement and the public. They are the only ones who've gained anything: Citizens are taught from a very young age that they are too week and inept to handle anything themselves. They must look to government to fill a parental roll. The police are the disciplinary arm of that parent. They are trained to follow orders and procedure, without emotion. And while the officer survival doctrine may be necessary to some extent, viewing everyone you meet as a dirt bag who's going to whack you the moment you turn your back has some obvious detrimental effects to a good working relationship.

It all works to the advantage of the politicians who get their own army (police force) that’s more apt to follow whatever orders they’re given, without regard to the morality of those orders, only their legality. Hopefully, I’ve already illustrated the dichotomy between righteousness and legality in a previous post. At the same time, the general public is conditioned to submit to authority (the police) – A situation that can only create resentment and distrust on the part of the public. Under these conditions, it’s only natural for the police and the “civilian” population to polarize against each other. Having no confidence or respect for itself (because it’s been taught not to from the very first day of kindergarten), the electorate can see no recourse other than placing an ever-increasing amount of power and authority in the hands of government. The government then, through law enforcement, exercises MORE control over the public, making them less content, and empowering the police to become more and more harsh.

The more discontent people are, the more they WANT to believe in something – The easier it is to sell them that something. Enter the politicians, just in time for the next election.

But I digress...

(Part II)

To be frank, I don’t think the firemen were right to cause such a disturbance – But I understand why they did. Likewise, I don’t think it was right for the police to bar them entrance – But I understand why they did. Why were these two groups of people at odds with each other? Who created that situation?

Answer: The politicians.

This time, however, it may have bitten this particular politician in the proverbial butt. Congrats on a new mayor. Hope he’s better than the last one.