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Link Posted: 3/27/2014 5:07:28 PM EDT
[#1]
18 USC sec. 921(a)(17). AP defined


(17)
           


               
               (A)
               The term "ammunition” means
ammunition or cartridge cases, primers, bullets, or propellent powder
designed for use in any firearm.

           

           


               
               (B)
               The term "armor piercing ammunition” means—
               


                   
                   (i)
                   a projectile or projectile core
which may be used in a handgun and which is constructed entirely
(excluding the presence of traces of other substances) from one or a
combination of tungsten alloys, steel, iron, brass, bronze, beryllium
copper, or depleted uranium; or






               

               


                   
                   (ii)
                   a full jacketed projectile
larger than .22 caliber designed and intended for use in a handgun and
whose jacket has a weight of more than 25 percent of the total weight of
the projectile.





Section i is out because 7n6 contains a lead "liner" under the steel jacket, over the steel penetrator.


Section ii is out because 5.45 < .22 apparently 5.45 is .221.





That being said, it's the ATF.



                   
               

           

 
Link Posted: 3/27/2014 5:08:39 PM EDT
[#2]
Don't care.

Whether true, or this months manufactured bullshit.....I'm done dancing for the shill sites.
Link Posted: 3/27/2014 5:09:36 PM EDT
[#3]
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Quoted:
Don't care.
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Futz you, man, I've got a 5.45mm RPK-74 I'd like to feed someday when I'm not poor.  
Link Posted: 3/27/2014 5:11:39 PM EDT
[#4]
If you folks think that looks fake, you should see what they send you when your ITAR has been approved as received....


Here, Let me show you what it looks like:




Please find attached.

Thanks

Attached:  For456433.pdf




Link Posted: 3/27/2014 5:13:56 PM EDT
[#5]
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Quoted:



Go on.
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Quoted:
http://www.justice.gov/usao/mow/slideshow/novafront.jpg

Desiree Dicknson if anyone was wondering. She said she didn't write that letter.



Go on.


She said we need to put the parking brake on and ditch this idea of them banning the import of that ammo.
Link Posted: 3/27/2014 5:14:20 PM EDT
[#6]
Link Posted: 3/27/2014 7:01:17 PM EDT
[#7]
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Quoted:
http://www.justice.gov/usao/mow/slideshow/novafront.jpg

Desiree Dicknson if anyone was wondering. She said she didn't write that letter.
View Quote


Did you seriously call her? Honest question.
Link Posted: 3/27/2014 7:07:40 PM EDT
[#8]
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Quoted:
Why does every one keep posting about that guy? What's the obsession with him around here?
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He's doubles as a porn star where they Photoshop a vagina over his man junk.

No lie.

Unless he is either a Male to female transgendered, or he has always been biologically a female.

in the porn industry its called a "cuntboy".
Link Posted: 3/27/2014 7:21:59 PM EDT
[#9]
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Quoted:
 In my experience, government employees don't usually include their cell number.
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...so do you have much experience with government employees?
Link Posted: 3/27/2014 7:24:47 PM EDT
[#10]
Link Posted: 3/27/2014 7:32:45 PM EDT
[#11]
Should I pack a backpack with some food in it?
Link Posted: 3/27/2014 7:35:24 PM EDT
[#12]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Should I pack a backpack with some food in it?
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The
Twinkles and beef jerky!
Link Posted: 3/27/2014 7:37:23 PM EDT
[#13]

Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


My Agency cell number is never given out casually.
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My agency cell is part of my formatted email signature in Outlook and is included in all correspondence.




I tried to get them to use my U/C name:




PenisStar TwatWrecker, Destroyer of Vaginas.




No dice.
Link Posted: 3/27/2014 7:37:57 PM EDT
[#14]
I can't has 5.45 anymores?
Link Posted: 3/27/2014 7:41:58 PM EDT
[#15]
Partial corroboration from MAC:


http://www.thebangswitch.com/import-ban-on-7n6-5-45x39/
Link Posted: 3/27/2014 7:44:47 PM EDT
[#16]
I sure hope he is pulling this out of his ass.
Link Posted: 3/27/2014 7:53:14 PM EDT
[#17]
if 5.45 is determined as armor-piercing, is it legal to own/shoot them? or just can't import/sell to civilians?

ETA, answer my own question from google:

"It’s perfectly legal to possess, purchase, sell or shoot armor piercing ammunition. It’s not legal to manufacture or import armor piercing ammunition."
View Quote

http://www.pagunblog.com/2007/07/29/armor-piercing-ammo/

"Direct from the ATF
WHAT FEDERAL RESTRICTIONS ARE PLACED ON AP AMMO?

If you are NOT a (FFL) licensee under the Gun Control Act (an individual):

It is:

ok to OWN AP ammo
ok to SELL AP ammo
ok to BUY AP ammo
ok to SHOOT AP ammo
NOT ok to MAKE AP ammo (18 USC sec. 922(a)(7))
NOT ok to IMPORT AP ammo (18 USC sec. 922(a)(7))"
View Quote

http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_6_42/349054_Are_AP_bullets_legal__.html
Link Posted: 3/27/2014 7:53:41 PM EDT
[#18]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Partial corroboration from MAC:


http://www.thebangswitch.com/import-ban-on-7n6-5-45x39/
View Quote


Again, 7n6 5.45x39mm does not and cannot meet the explicit parameters for being an armor-piercing handgun ammunition.  Not without the ATF violating the law by ignoring the federal definition in an absolutely inarguable manner.

The law says nothing can meet the definition if it is below .22 cal, or wasn't designed and intended, or has a jacket weight of less than 1/4th of the total projectile weight.

For it to be bannable it would have to be greater than .22 AND designed and intended for a handgun AND jacket weight more than 1/4th projectile weight.  5.45mm cannot and never will be any of those things.

ATF can try to ban it but a well-placed lawsuit will cram that up their ass in a heartbeat.  The statute is crystal clear and they have no wiggle room.
Link Posted: 3/27/2014 7:56:21 PM EDT
[#19]
Link Posted: 3/27/2014 8:02:43 PM EDT
[#20]
Just a few days away from April fools and he's got all the gun forums stirred up ... Just wait and see
Link Posted: 3/27/2014 8:09:46 PM EDT
[#21]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Why does every one keep posting about that guy? What's the obsession with him around here?
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The info you seem is located over there in that ditch.
Link Posted: 3/27/2014 8:13:14 PM EDT
[#22]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


...so do you have much experience with government employees?
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Quoted:
Quoted:
 In my experience, government employees don't usually include their cell number.


...so do you have much experience with government employees?


Mostly state and local, but some with the SEC, PTO, and yes, even BATFE.  In fact, I'm looking at the business card from a BATFE area supervisor I know right now.  Phone and fax numbers only.


Link Posted: 3/27/2014 8:23:21 PM EDT
[#23]
Link Posted: 3/27/2014 8:29:30 PM EDT
[#24]
Did I just stretch and load my mags for nothing?
Link Posted: 3/27/2014 9:03:38 PM EDT
[#25]
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Quoted:
Did I just stretch and load my mags for nothing?
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At least you're no fucking fair-weathered pussy.
Link Posted: 3/27/2014 9:15:48 PM EDT
[#26]
Someone wasn't moving enough inventory (read 5.45x39 ammo) and needed to create some panic buying to unload it.  Hence the BS letter.






Link Posted: 3/27/2014 9:31:14 PM EDT
[#27]
If that was a picture of the letter, that's faker than fake.
Link Posted: 3/27/2014 9:33:59 PM EDT
[#28]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Just a few days away from April fools and he's got all the gun forums stirred up ... Just wait and see
View Quote


It seems like a REALLY bad idea to create fake documents claiming they were written by the BATFE.
Link Posted: 3/27/2014 9:35:39 PM EDT
[#29]
there is no provision in the constitution that authorizes government agencies to use blue printer ink.
Link Posted: 3/27/2014 9:51:17 PM EDT
[#30]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


The info you seem is located over there in that ditch.
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Why does every one keep posting about that guy? What's the obsession with him around here?


The info you seem is located over there in that ditch.

http://www.mememaker.net/static/images/memes/3319745.jpg
Link Posted: 3/27/2014 9:54:19 PM EDT
[#31]
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Quoted:
did he find it in a ditch?
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No, it was attached to the parking brake.
Link Posted: 3/27/2014 9:58:18 PM EDT
[#32]
Is Buck threatening to start killing people again?


Link Posted: 3/27/2014 10:03:52 PM EDT
[#33]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


It seems like a REALLY bad idea to create fake documents claiming they were written by the BATFE.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Just a few days away from April fools and he's got all the gun forums stirred up ... Just wait and see


It seems like a REALLY bad idea to create fake documents claiming they were written by the BATFE.





Damn, he just got his carry permit back, too.
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 12:57:24 AM EDT
[#34]
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Quoted:


Damn, he just got his carry permit back, too.
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Just a few days away from April fools and he's got all the gun forums stirred up ... Just wait and see


It seems like a REALLY bad idea to create fake documents claiming they were written by the BATFE.


Damn, he just got his carry permit back, too.


After his last hysterical rant on Youtube, Yeager is the poster child for the ATF trying to redefine "mentally defective".

Sometimes our community can be our own worst enemy.
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 2:50:20 AM EDT
[#35]
Unless I'm reading all of this wrong, it seems like this isn't originating just from Mr. Yeager.  MAC has a blog post up regarding this (which was already linked).  In the comments he is stating that he has personally spoken with the importer who received this EMAIL.  Something is definitely going on, although the full scope of it remains to be seen since this is just one email to one importer.
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 2:58:10 AM EDT
[#36]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Is it customary for BATFE employees to include a cell number on official correspondence?  In my experience, government employees don't usually include their cell number.
View Quote


Maybe she just wants to get laid.
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 3:29:44 AM EDT
[#37]
That is NOT how an official determination letter reads. The .gov probably will end up banning importation at some point but that aint it.
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 3:32:59 AM EDT
[#38]
It looks to me, like others have said above, that there is a possible email regarding an inquiry.



This does not equate to a policy letter, but if genuine, probably is indicative of ATF's intent.



I can't believe that they haven't cut off all Russian imports based on the recent Ukraine situation alone.



I do find it believable that ATF would do something arbitrary and not in compliance with the statutory authority.
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 3:44:26 AM EDT
[#39]
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Quoted:


It is, but probably still smart not to temp the BATF.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile
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Quoted:
I thought smaller than .22 was exempt.  


It is, but probably still smart not to temp the BATF.

Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile


No, 22 and under is exempt from the 25% jacket weight provision, but not from the core materials provision of the law.   So if someone is making a pistol they can can put 5.45x39 in the same boat as 7.62x39.  
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 3:44:51 AM EDT
[#40]
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Quoted:


They get a LOT of leeway - too much - with technical determinations, but when there are numbers in the federal code even they have to follow them.  The armor-piercing statute is extremely explicit and specific.

- Larger than .22 cal
- Designed and intended for use in a handgun
- Jacket weight more than 25% of the total weight of projectile

Even if it was over .22 cal (it's not) and the jacket was more than a quarter of the weight (I don't believe it is), a good lawyer can sink their case simply by entering the Soviet technical development documents that say, right at the top, "this cartridge and bullet are designed for the prototype 5.45x39mm Avtomat Kalashinkov RIFLE- date: 1974".  The bullet and cartridge was not designed nor intended for use in a handgun.  Later adaptation does not change that objective fact.


So.  I'm just going to go out on a limb here and say that Buck Yeager is either the most stupidly gullible dumbass on the internet today, or he's a lying piece of shit.

Possibly both.
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I could see the ATF Lawyer walk into the court room without stopping. Walk up to the injunction paperwork with a white-out pen, scratch through ".22" caliber and write ".21" caliber. Turn around and walk out.

Everyone will have a puzzled look on their face as she nonchalantly says "we changed our mind about the caliber thing" as the door closes behind her.

Injunction denied.



22 Caliber is in the Law.

I was being somewhat cute about them being able to in other determinations. It honestly wouldn't surprise me to see them try to pull some sort of shenanigan if ever challanged. They are like umpires. Everyone may know they are wrong but they aren't gonna stop arguing or change their mind.


They get a LOT of leeway - too much - with technical determinations, but when there are numbers in the federal code even they have to follow them.  The armor-piercing statute is extremely explicit and specific.

- Larger than .22 cal
- Designed and intended for use in a handgun
- Jacket weight more than 25% of the total weight of projectile

Even if it was over .22 cal (it's not) and the jacket was more than a quarter of the weight (I don't believe it is), a good lawyer can sink their case simply by entering the Soviet technical development documents that say, right at the top, "this cartridge and bullet are designed for the prototype 5.45x39mm Avtomat Kalashinkov RIFLE- date: 1974".  The bullet and cartridge was not designed nor intended for use in a handgun.  Later adaptation does not change that objective fact.


So.  I'm just going to go out on a limb here and say that Buck Yeager is either the most stupidly gullible dumbass on the internet today, or he's a lying piece of shit.

Possibly both.


Definitely both.
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 3:46:09 AM EDT
[#41]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


They get a LOT of leeway - too much - with technical determinations, but when there are numbers in the federal code even they have to follow them.  The armor-piercing statute is extremely explicit and specific.

- Larger than .22 cal
- Designed and intended for use in a handgun
- Jacket weight more than 25% of the total weight of projectile

Even if it was over .22 cal (it's not) and the jacket was more than a quarter of the weight (I don't believe it is), a good lawyer can sink their case simply by entering the Soviet technical development documents that say, right at the top, "this cartridge and bullet are designed for the prototype 5.45x39mm Avtomat Kalashinkov RIFLE- date: 1974".  The bullet and cartridge was not designed nor intended for use in a handgun.  Later adaptation does not change that objective fact.


So.  I'm just going to go out on a limb here and say that Buck Yeager is either the most stupidly gullible dumbass on the internet today, or he's a lying piece of shit.

Possibly both.
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I could see the ATF Lawyer walk into the court room without stopping. Walk up to the injunction paperwork with a white-out pen, scratch through ".22" caliber and write ".21" caliber. Turn around and walk out.

Everyone will have a puzzled look on their face as she nonchalantly says "we changed our mind about the caliber thing" as the door closes behind her.

Injunction denied.



22 Caliber is in the Law.

I was being somewhat cute about them being able to in other determinations. It honestly wouldn't surprise me to see them try to pull some sort of shenanigan if ever challanged. They are like umpires. Everyone may know they are wrong but they aren't gonna stop arguing or change their mind.


They get a LOT of leeway - too much - with technical determinations, but when there are numbers in the federal code even they have to follow them.  The armor-piercing statute is extremely explicit and specific.

- Larger than .22 cal
- Designed and intended for use in a handgun
- Jacket weight more than 25% of the total weight of projectile

Even if it was over .22 cal (it's not) and the jacket was more than a quarter of the weight (I don't believe it is), a good lawyer can sink their case simply by entering the Soviet technical development documents that say, right at the top, "this cartridge and bullet are designed for the prototype 5.45x39mm Avtomat Kalashinkov RIFLE- date: 1974".  The bullet and cartridge was not designed nor intended for use in a handgun.  Later adaptation does not change that objective fact.


So.  I'm just going to go out on a limb here and say that Buck Yeager is either the most stupidly gullible dumbass on the internet today, or he's a lying piece of shit.

Possibly both.


Fair question: Wouldn't the Soviet manual also say that about 7.62x39 and rifles....yet they are banned?
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 3:47:11 AM EDT
[#42]
Lol here we fucking go

Yeager just wants to steal more cc numbers from wideners
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 3:57:03 AM EDT
[#43]
Its fake as fuck and here is why. Yeager hasnt started shooting people yet. Because if they go ONE MORE INCH. Which this would be a few inches in my book. HES GOING TO START KILLING PEOPLE. He has defied his own logic.

Link Posted: 3/28/2014 4:04:31 AM EDT
[#44]
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 4:09:30 AM EDT
[#45]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History


Link Posted: 3/28/2014 4:10:01 AM EDT
[#46]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Fair question: Wouldn't the Soviet manual also say that about 7.62x39 and rifles....yet they are banned?
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BATFE based it's determination that 7.62 steel core bullets are AP on two facts: 1. There is steel in the core. 2. It can be used in a pistol (because a manufacturer announced that it was going to make a 7.62X39 pistol).

In the event that a manufacturer announces that it intends to make a 5.45 pistol, expect BATFE to make the same determination. When the determination is challenged, expect the courts to uphold it.

In other words, BATFE doesn't rely on the part of the definition involving jacket weight so the purpose for which the cartridge is designed is irrelevant.
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 4:12:34 AM EDT
[#47]
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Quoted:
That is NOT how an official determination letter reads. The .gov probably will end up banning importation at some point but that aint it.
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meh.. call it what you will,  a SUBMITTED form 6 for surplus 5.45 WAS denied for the reasons stated in the letter,  the importer in question has imported a brazillion rounds over the decades and is hardly new to the game.   The denial was not due to any error on their part,  it is either a mistaken interpetation by a single ATF employee or department,  or it's a new policy for the import branch...
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 4:16:01 AM EDT
[#48]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


meh.. call it what you will,  a SUBMITTED form 6 for surplus 5.45 WAS denied for the reasons stated in the letter,  the importer in question has imported a brazillion rounds over the decades and is hardly new to the game.   The denial was not due to any error on their part,  it is either a mistaken interpetation by a single ATF employee or department,  or it's a new policy for the import branch...
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
That is NOT how an official determination letter reads. The .gov probably will end up banning importation at some point but that aint it.


meh.. call it what you will,  a SUBMITTED form 6 for surplus 5.45 WAS denied for the reasons stated in the letter,  the importer in question has imported a brazillion rounds over the decades and is hardly new to the game.   The denial was not due to any error on their part,  it is either a mistaken interpetation by a single ATF employee or department,  or it's a new policy for the import branch...


Lets not pretend some dishonesty flew around with 7.62x39 ammo a few weeks ago that caused millions of rounds to be sold
Link Posted: 3/28/2014 4:17:34 AM EDT
[#49]
This guy rents so much space in some of yer heads...it's epic.


Link Posted: 3/28/2014 4:20:33 AM EDT
[#50]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:


Lets not pretend some dishonesty flew around with 7.62x39 ammo a few weeks ago that caused millions of rounds to be sold
View Quote View All Quotes
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Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
That is NOT how an official determination letter reads. The .gov probably will end up banning importation at some point but that aint it.


meh.. call it what you will,  a SUBMITTED form 6 for surplus 5.45 WAS denied for the reasons stated in the letter,  the importer in question has imported a brazillion rounds over the decades and is hardly new to the game.   The denial was not due to any error on their part,  it is either a mistaken interpetation by a single ATF employee or department,  or it's a new policy for the import branch...


Lets not pretend some dishonesty flew around with 7.62x39 ammo a few weeks ago that caused millions of rounds to be sold



Where is the dishonesty?

Are you an ammo importer?  do you personally know any?  Well if you are,  or if you do,  ask them what the current state of the market is in eastern europe and Russia with regards to projected ammo availability.
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