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Posted: 8/28/2015 7:15:43 PM EDT
[#1]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
With an AK, You couldn't hit the side of a barn even if you were standing inside of it. Then I really am a Tier 1 Operator cause I can easily do 3 moa with mine. |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 7:17:24 PM EDT
[#2]
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Just how accurate? I had someone tell me he did 1 MOA with his issued Rk (think it was a 95). I find that hard to believe for 7.62x39. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Valmet Rk62 and SAKO Rk 92 or 95 are extremely accurate guns, but are not really AK's when you look at how they're made. Just how accurate? I had someone tell me he did 1 MOA with his issued Rk (think it was a 95). I find that hard to believe for 7.62x39. Considering that Finnish ammo is the best 7.62x39 you can get short of handloads, and the RK barrel threads into the trunnion, rather than the traditional full of fuck pressed and pinned fit, its not all that improbable. 
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Posted: 8/28/2015 7:18:26 PM EDT
[#3]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Gotta be worst than a Dragunov right? A guy in our club had one and was barely able to break clays at 50yds. I dont wanna imagine an AK. and yes the guy could shoot. Something wrong there. I took a Marco Vorobiev's Behind The Lines sniper class and TX-Zen had no problem hitting a torso-sized target at 600 yards with his NMD-86 which are on par with the SVD with mil-surp ball ammo. Your guy's rifle wasn't sighted-in. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 7:18:31 PM EDT
[#4]
Depends on the AK. My VEPR in 7.62x54r is good for 2-3 moa. My 5.45 saiga is 3-4ish, and my M92 PAP is 3-5ish.
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Posted: 8/28/2015 7:20:36 PM EDT
[#5]
Between myself and my dad we have a half dozen AK's. A couple Polytechs, an SGL-21, a couple Yugo underfolders, and my milled Arsenal SAM-7. I took all of them to the range one day. Every one of them did 3-4" 5 shot groups at 100 yards. I was pretty surprised.
It's not match grade accuracy, but not bad either. |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 7:24:04 PM EDT
[#6]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Considering that Finnish ammo is the best 7.62x39 you can get short of handloads, and the RK barrel threads into the trunnion, rather than the traditional full of fuck pressed and pinned fit, its not all that improbable. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Valmet Rk62 and SAKO Rk 92 or 95 are extremely accurate guns, but are not really AK's when you look at how they're made. Just how accurate? I had someone tell me he did 1 MOA with his issued Rk (think it was a 95). I find that hard to believe for 7.62x39. Considering that Finnish ammo is the best 7.62x39 you can get short of handloads, and the RK barrel threads into the trunnion, rather than the traditional full of fuck pressed and pinned fit, its not all that improbable. That is impressive. Wonder how those 7.62x39 ARs (with good ammo) do. I always assumed 7.62x39 had less accuracy & range than 5.56. |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 7:24:36 PM EDT
[#7]
My valmet is very accurate.esp with lapua ammo.i have shot a few 1" groups.its no prob keeping it under 2".
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Posted: 8/28/2015 7:26:04 PM EDT
[#8]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Between myself and my dad we have a half dozen AK's. A couple Polytechs, an SGL-21, a couple Yugo underfolders, and my milled Arsenal SAM-7. I took all of them to the range one day. Every one of them did 3-4" 5 shot groups at 100 yards. I was pretty surprised. It's not match grade accuracy, but not bad either. For what they are, they are "accurate enough." Further emphasizes that it's the soldier behind the rifle that makes it worth a damn. |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 7:28:07 PM EDT
[#9]
Anywhere between 3 to 6 MOA.
Then there are some with extremely well made barrels, excellent builds from the bottom up, and used hand loaded ammo to get around 1 MOA. Of course, any gun can be a 1 MOA gun if you dump enough money, time, and resources into it. |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 7:31:59 PM EDT
[#10]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Something wrong there. I took a Marco Vorobiev's Behind The Lines sniper class and TX-Zen had no problem hitting a torso-sized target at 600 yards with his NMD-86 which are on par with the SVD with mil-surp ball ammo. Your guy's rifle wasn't sighted-in. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Gotta be worst than a Dragunov right? A guy in our club had one and was barely able to break clays at 50yds. I dont wanna imagine an AK. and yes the guy could shoot. Something wrong there. I took a Marco Vorobiev's Behind The Lines sniper class and TX-Zen had no problem hitting a torso-sized target at 600 yards with his NMD-86 which are on par with the SVD with mil-surp ball ammo. Your guy's rifle wasn't sighted-in. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile A real and very rare dragunov or a guy who bought a PSL off gunbroker that was being called a dragunov? |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 7:35:24 PM EDT
[#11]
Sure, Golden Tiger is the "best"... but you have to be realistic, it isn't some awesome ammo. It's still Russian ammo that is only barely more expensive than what is considered cheap, inaccurate shit.
Compare your AK with Wolf ammo next to a basic AR with the same type of cheap Wolf ammo. You will find they shoot pretty comparable. AR will be more accurate, but not to some insane extent. The AK is accurate enough for it's intended purpose. It's not a precision rifle, but it's also not a glorified shotgun. 3-5moa with cheap wolf ammo is typical. Most of the "AK accuracy is shit" is because of people using the cheapest ammo they can find, and the iron sights aren't exactly precise. |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 7:36:47 PM EDT
[#12]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Something wrong there. I took a Marco Vorobiev's Behind The Lines sniper class and TX-Zen had no problem hitting a torso-sized target at 600 yards with his NMD-86 which are on par with the SVD with mil-surp ball ammo. Your guy's rifle wasn't sighted-in. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Gotta be worst than a Dragunov right? A guy in our club had one and was barely able to break clays at 50yds. I dont wanna imagine an AK. and yes the guy could shoot. Something wrong there. I took a Marco Vorobiev's Behind The Lines sniper class and TX-Zen had no problem hitting a torso-sized target at 600 yards with his NMD-86 which are on par with the SVD with mil-surp ball ammo. Your guy's rifle wasn't sighted-in. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile He is probably mistaking a PSL for a Dragunov. There are some total shit PSLs out there. |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 7:38:45 PM EDT
[#13]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sure, Golden Tiger is the "best"... but you have to be realistic, it isn't some awesome ammo. It's still Russian ammo that is only barely more expensive than what is considered cheap, inaccurate shit. Compare your AK with Wolf ammo next to a basic AR with the same type of cheap Wolf ammo. You will find they shoot pretty comparable. AR will be more accurate, but not to some insane extent. The AK is accurate enough for it's intended purpose. It's not a precision rifle, but it's also not a glorified shotgun. 3-5moa with cheap wolf ammo is typical. Most of the "AK accuracy is shit" is because of people using the cheapest ammo they can find, and the iron sights aren't exactly precise. And a lot of people are only marginal shooters. |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 7:41:14 PM EDT
[#14]
I can consistently get 2 MOA with my SGL-21 and its cold hammer forged, chrome barrel.
I have a Bulgarian build in 5.45 that I can't really every get better than 3 MOA out of, but that's still plenty good. What your friend means about AK accuracy being a myth is that the difference between a 1 MOA AR15 and a 3 or 4 MOA AK47 or 74 is irrelevant for anything other than competition precision shooting. |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 7:41:18 PM EDT
[#15]
Ammo. plays a part as does the sights. If you you're not hitting you're doing something wrong. Most are so spoiled by AR sights they forget damn near every gun before it had the same style sights as the AK. Here's some help for the learning impaired...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wdX1PiHvy-U And for those who can't seem to do "metric system"... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pqL9IOBSfvE TL:DR version...STOP COVERING THE FUCKING TARGET WITH THE FRONT SIGHT POST !!! If all this fails then buy a mount of your choice and put a RDS on it and watch your accuracy improve. (No, it's not magic and I'm not a wizard). |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 7:46:21 PM EDT
[#16]
As others have already noted, when you get away from the 7.62x39 round and get into 5.45 or even 5.56 AKs, the whole accuracy argument changes quite a bit.
Pick up something in the latter two calibers and the average shooter should see little practical difference between an AR and the AK in the sub 200m ranges. |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 7:47:41 PM EDT
[#17]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
. Most are so spoiled by AR sights they forget damn near every gun before it had the same style sights as the AK. Here's some help for the learning impaired... After about 1930 or so, having iron sights on a fighting rifle that aren't of the aperture type is fucking inexcusable. |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 7:48:44 PM EDT
[#18]
No AK but my SKS is very accurate.
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Posted: 8/28/2015 7:49:27 PM EDT
[#19]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
In my experience, AKs are *way* more accurate than a Mini-14 or Mini-30.  Friend of mine has a Mini-30 and if it wasn't jammed, the mag wouldn't feed. It was always something with that gun. 
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Posted: 8/28/2015 7:51:05 PM EDT
[#20]
I love how an AR makes everyone a scout sniper I these threads
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Posted: 8/28/2015 7:53:31 PM EDT
[#21]
I generally do much better with 5.45 aks. My SGL 31 is a couple of inch groups easily at 100. A little worse for the 7.62 AKs ive had.
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Posted: 8/28/2015 7:56:02 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
After about 1930 or so, having iron sights on a fighting rifle that aren't of the aperture type is fucking inexcusable. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
. Most are so spoiled by AR sights they forget damn near every gun before it had the same style sights as the AK. Here's some help for the learning impaired... After about 1930 or so, having iron sights on a fighting rifle that aren't of the aperture type is fucking inexcusable. Yet I do fine with it out to 300 -325 meters. Not too shabby with a lever action either, though I don't care much for lever actions. I guess it's just what someone gets used to. |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 7:58:30 PM EDT
[#23]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
After about 1930 or so, having iron sights on a fighting rifle that aren't of the aperture type is fucking inexcusable. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
. Most are so spoiled by AR sights they forget damn near every gun before it had the same style sights as the AK. Here's some help for the learning impaired... After about 1930 or so, having iron sights on a fighting rifle that aren't of the aperture type is fucking inexcusable. Yep, plenty of standard-issue rifles with aperture sights long before the M16. Those that come immediately to mind: Enfield P.14 Enfield 1917 Enfield No.4 1903A3 M1 M14 |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 7:59:42 PM EDT
[#24]
I have been wanting to shoot an AK for accuracy lately. I will have access to a WASR here soon.
Plan: Use a RDS instead of commie sights Reload 150 grain match .310 or .311 bullets with a higher BC than the 123 grain fodder Use a ALG AK trigger ?Profit? Should be interesting. |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 8:04:10 PM EDT
[#25]
People get killed by them..Sooo 3'' at 100 yrds is pretty good for
a battle rifle..  ..
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Posted: 8/28/2015 8:06:45 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I have been wanting to shoot an AK for accuracy lately. I will have access to a WASR here soon. Plan: Use a RDS instead of commie sights Reload 150 grain match .310 or .311 bullets with a higher BC than the 123 grain fodder Use a ALG AK trigger ?Profit? Should be interesting. Cool... post an update. |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 8:06:53 PM EDT
[#27]
It's killed a bunch of people so yeah there's that.
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Posted: 8/28/2015 8:10:13 PM EDT
[#28]
Ak s are not accurate guns they are not designed to be accurate.
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Posted: 8/28/2015 8:11:04 PM EDT
[#29]
Minute of political dissident at least.
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Posted: 8/28/2015 8:12:06 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Minute of political dissident at least. the winner thus far... |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 8:12:20 PM EDT
[#31]
I had a Polytech Ledgend that was about 6" @ 100 yards.
I had an Egyptian Maddi that was more like 3". |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 8:16:09 PM EDT
[#32]
I can hit milk jugs placed at various locations 200-300 meters in distance with cheap gun show ammo...this means for a combat distance at human sized targets it is accurate enough...
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Posted: 8/28/2015 8:17:38 PM EDT
[#33]
I had a 74M clone that was boringly accurate on steel plates out to 400m, never shot it further. It is more than accurate for an infantry rifle. If you can't hit man size targets out to say 3 to 400m with an AK, well the rifle is probably not the problem.
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Posted: 8/28/2015 8:17:39 PM EDT
[#34]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Considering that Finnish ammo is the best 7.62x39 you can get short of handloads, and the RK barrel threads into the trunnion, rather than the traditional full of fuck pressed and pinned fit, its not all that improbable. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Valmet Rk62 and SAKO Rk 92 or 95 are extremely accurate guns, but are not really AK's when you look at how they're made. Just how accurate? I had someone tell me he did 1 MOA with his issued Rk (think it was a 95). I find that hard to believe for 7.62x39. Considering that Finnish ammo is the best 7.62x39 you can get short of handloads, and the RK barrel threads into the trunnion, rather than the traditional full of fuck pressed and pinned fit, its not all that improbable. Yes, Rk 92/95 with Finnish brass-cased 7.62x39 is easily more accurate than most of the M4's I had from the 1990's, which were typically 4 MOA or less guns, as called for by the Mil-STD. The Finns went Captain insano on using non-chromed barrels with an unusually tight accuracy standard, typical of the FDF dating back to no later than the 1930's, if not 1920's. This went against the recommendations of a lot of Finnish Army professionals, who wanted a chrome-lined barrel, since they understood field conditions, Finland's limited resources from the Winter War, and they also knew that 1 MOA isn't necessary for riflemen on the line. The accuracy nazi's won the specification war on barrel steel, so Rk's are extremely accurate rifles. |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 8:21:20 PM EDT
[#35]
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Posted: 8/28/2015 8:25:22 PM EDT
[#36]
Quoted:
Very serious. One of my friends with relatively little firearm experience is convinced that on average the AK has good accuracy overall and that the 'accuracy thing is a myth' regarding AKs. Yet for me, I don't know a single person that I've met that has had a AK that performs better than 3" at 100yds, Most tell me they're in the 3"-5" range. I realize alot of this can do with shooting style, yet even for me, my yugo AK with Golden Tiger (Which I'm told is the best stuff you can find outside of M43) is still a 3"-4" gun at 100yds AT BEST. Most of what I see is 5" and that puts the AK n the range of a mini-14 in terms of accuracy. Not that the gun is totally unusable, but beyond 300 yards I wouldn't hope to hit much of anything, especially in a life or death scenario. Meanwhile every.single.AR. I've had does better than 2" at 100yds, most of the time from a prone position I can do 1.5" or even a little better, with a scope it's even better. So, am I correct in what I'm seeing with AK trashcan accuracy or totally wrong? In my experience, most people shooting AK's for fun are: (1) shooting the cheapest steel case ammo they can find (2) would not shoot better than 3" at 100 yards if you handed them a 6920 and some good ammo anyways That sort of makes the argument pointless. Personally, I've shot at bowling pins suspended by rope at 180 yards with various cheap ammo out of AKM clones with good results, but they're simply not going to perform like even a cheap AR with acceptable ammo. |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 8:25:46 PM EDT
[#37]
given it's short sighting plane and terrible options for optic mounts, it is already starting at a pretty large disadvantage. Perhaps they might go 3moa ransom rested, but not the easiest gun in the world to aim either.
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Posted: 8/28/2015 8:26:15 PM EDT
[#38]
Why is it inaccurate? Can it be accurized?
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Posted: 8/28/2015 8:30:41 PM EDT
[#39]
Quote HistoryDon't know who that guy is but I like him, he funny. |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 8:32:05 PM EDT
[#40]
Accurate enough to do the job!
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Posted: 8/28/2015 8:34:01 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
given it's short sighting plane and terrible options for optic mounts, it is already starting at a pretty large disadvantage. Perhaps they might go 3moa ransom rested, but not the easiest gun in the world to aim either. It has the same sighting distance as an M4. Optics are easy to mount, and I always liked the side mount method....for me at least. |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 8:36:32 PM EDT
[#42]
Only as accurate as the Commie behind it....i.e.; enough
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Posted: 8/28/2015 8:38:26 PM EDT
[#43]
*sigh* after reading the first 10+ responses I am disappointed in the forum. we've fallen to the depths of a bunch of sniveling pranksters and act more like children than the adults I assume most of you are... even by the standards of GD.
As for the OP's question. it very much depends on the Ak/Ammo combo. My SLR106F and 2 CR's both shoot in the 2 MOA range with decent ammo. However they are both 5.56 with 1:7 twist cold hammer forged barrels. one of the CR's has pulled a 1.5" group with MK262 and a Leupold scope mounted on it. The sights are a major design draw back to the AK, and unless you put some form of an optic on it, it will never be more than a 3-5" rifle. As for my Maadi, Yugo, or Chinese 7.62, and my Bulgy parts kit built 5.45 rifles they are around the 2.5-4" range depending on the day and the ammo. Cheap steel case ammo that most people shoot in their ak's isn't known for being match grade and never will be. decent brass cased stuff is expensive and as far as I know isn't even out there for the 5.45 |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 8:39:02 PM EDT
[#44]
If you look at the results for the MOA all day challenge you will see there aren't very many AK's on the board...found here
9. nickforney: SGL 31 - Trijicon RMR 8 moa - Hornady 60gr steel case vmax. Groups: 3.037/ 1.845/ 1.841/ 1.800/ 2.072/ avg 2.12" = 4.04 MOA When shooting the superior hornady 60 gr at 50 yards with a forend rmr mounted the best I was able to get was a 2.12 inch average over 25 shots which is just over 4 moa. I sat and acclimated to the trigger with several strings of fire using 7n6 which were far worse but when I felt like I had a good handle I shot two sets of hornady 60 gr the best of the two being what is listed. These are not 'combat shooting groups' These are extreme slow fire of 5 shots and allowing the barrel to stay cool throughout the process. As some what of a benchmark I randomly decided to shoot a franken gun with a stag barrel in it with some xm193 and an eotech which resulted like this 2.nickforney: Stag upper 5.56 - Eotech - xm193. Groups: .990/ 1.143/ 1.220/ .922/ 1.002/ avg 1.06" = 2.02 moa Again this was slow fire and me giving it what I had. The xm193 and the eotech could have flipped the coin on the deciding factor for the quality of the shots. It was very hard to get a sharp aiming point on the eotech repeatedly but the xm193 is never expected to shoot much better than that. So the AK had some of the better ammo I can get for the 5.45 AK while the AR shot some of the cheaper ammo both using red dots the AR shot half the group size. I have found in my travels that most AK owners are not aware of what the rifle is capable of and many are not too worried about accuracy anyway. As far as I can see there is absolutely no reason your friend should be asking about accuracy while looking for AK's when there are so many quality AR's on the rack for sale today at the same or a cheaper price. YMMV...I don't care nick |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 8:42:23 PM EDT
[#45]
Golden Tiger is certainly not the best you can get. Buy American made, brass cased hunting ammo and you will get decent accuracy out of a decent quality AK with an optic, rather the shit iron sights. It's not going to be a bolt gun or even an AR, but you'll likely get 3" or better.
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Posted: 8/28/2015 8:44:13 PM EDT
[#46]
A quality AK with milspec ammo is generally more accurate than the majority of shooters. It is different than more common semi-automatic rifles because it does have a punch. The sights are not very 30+ year-old friendly and most AK stocks are designed for someone who is 5'4" tall. Rob Ski does have a point in his video that if you practice/train enough with one: you will be proficient.
If you put on an optic or get some better irons, they are decent rifles. You can also just leave them alone and have IMO what is one of the most fun range toys/HD guns. They are stupid fun to shoot. In theory, the real FA version should suck, but it does not. FA AK is not the most combat effective firearm, but it they are generally more well mannered than one would expect. The barrel import ban fucked us all big time, but you can still get a quality domestic AK sporter. |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 8:45:18 PM EDT
[#47]
It's combat accurate. Slow fire with my RPK I can put a 30 round mag into the chest of a silhouette at 100 yards in a pretty decent overall grouping. Haven't tried it on FA, but I'm guessing the groups will open up somewhat.
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Posted: 8/28/2015 8:47:12 PM EDT
[#48]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Will it make one jagged hole at 100 yards like everyone with an AR says theirs does? No. But, it will hit a man size target at distance just fine. This. Exactly as it was intended to be used. Hit a man sized target at close to intermediate range. AK's will rarely if ever win a marksmanship against an AR,ammo is pretty crappy,iron sights suck balls,heavy,etc I still like them mostly shooting for fun |
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Posted: 8/28/2015 8:47:39 PM EDT
[#49]
100yds
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Posted: 8/28/2015 8:50:23 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Gotta be worst than a Dragunov right? A guy in our club had one and was barely able to break clays at 50yds. I dont wanna imagine an AK. and yes the guy could shoot. That's been my experience. I can't hit an 8' steel plate at 100 yards with an AK , be it a 47 , 74, Bulgy, Romanian, Norinco , it doesn't matter. Give me a 20' A2 AR15 and I can ding that motherfucker with every shot of a full mag. I just can't shoot an AK for shit (shrugs shoulders). |
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