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Link Posted: 3/10/2001 11:03:21 AM EST
[#1]
Well guys, if this topic does not get your attention, maybe an entry into your home will, even if it is the wrong house, sure it would!

You know it, I know it, and recent news of such acts is very real indeed!

SILENCE IS CONSENT!

Link Posted: 3/10/2001 11:53:00 AM EST
[#2]
Damn!
I gave in and responded to this topic.

Nothing I say will add or detract from this particular discussion.
Link Posted: 3/10/2001 11:55:09 AM EST
[#3]
Originally Posted By Wobblin Goblin:
Damn!
I gave in and responded to this topic.

Nothing I say will add or detract from this particular discussion.
View Quote



Gee, I have found that to be the case in most of the "Otro" topics on this board...

Link Posted: 3/10/2001 1:28:04 PM EST
[#4]
Quoted:
Of course there are many good reasons for police agencies to have SWAT teams. But give me just ONE good reason why Fish and Game, EPA, or for that matter IRS should have them. If these agencies are preparing to apprehend a suspect or suspects that are known to be dangerous enough to need a SWAT team, they should use a team from an agency that legitimately has them.....
View Quote


Gus,
I don't know what the game wardens in Pennsylvania do, but here in Louisiana they are kind of an all around agency.  As a former member of the Statewide Strike Force we had a rather long list of duties.  Of course we did the normal stuff of checking fishing and hunting licenses, bag and creel limit checks, working night hunters, etc.  We also do boating safety inspections, as well as boating theft and boating accident investigations.  There's also the board of health inspections we do on seafood wholesalers, regulation of the commercial fishing industry,  search and rescue, coastal drug interdiction and customs inspections.  Throw in the occassional traffic stop, DWI, and battery on an officer and I pray that you'll have the answer to the hilarious question I often get "Why do you guys carry guns?"  The department doesn't have what you guys would call a SWAT team, but there are sniper rifles and such with guys trained to use them during the few times that the need arises.
Link Posted: 3/10/2001 3:45:40 PM EST
[#5]
Oh no....We don't want to ban Swat....  Then I couldnt get pics like this anymore...  ;)



[IMG]albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1552897&a=11782671&p=42017018&Sequence=0[/IMG]


[IMG]albums.photopoint.com/j/View?u=1552897&a=11782671&p=42017027&Sequence=0[/IMG]


Link Posted: 3/10/2001 4:00:42 PM EST
[#6]
HEY!!! Stop taking pictures of my butt! Or I will be forced to rap you over the head with my standard issue Mall Ninja Baton! My job is dangerous, and I can't affor to have punks with machine guns recognize my face OR my behind! That's why I wear my Baclava on duty. You're just luck I was'nt wearing enough gear to preform a take down on you when you took the picture, or you would have REALLY been in trouble. WATCH IT!

Mall Ninja-Always On Patrol.
Link Posted: 3/10/2001 5:26:50 PM EST
[#7]
You gotta be kiddin!!!
What happens when you get something like the north hollywood bank robbers? Are you familiar with this incident? The bullets were bouncing off these guys like they were superman. One well placed shot from a SWAT sniper or an assult by a TAC team could have ended it all. As it was the regular cops tried their best and 9 of them were shot up.

I see no reason to ban SWAT. However there should be clearly defined rules on how and when to deploy them.



Originally Posted By Early Chow Recruit:
Posted before and I'll post it again.
"A bill to make it illegal for any law enforcement agency to use any military or paramilitary equipment or weapons". There is NO reason for police to use any of this equipment other than to get their jollies playing SEAL and I defy anyone to refute this.
View Quote
Link Posted: 3/10/2001 9:36:24 PM EST
[#8]
Thanks for coming back andreu. Ban Ban Ban. You sound like HCI. Banning things is just a short sighted knee jerk reaction to a perceived problem.

Are there problems? Sure, no one denies that. Things could be better implemented and run. But the concept of a specially trained team called to deal with extremely dangerous subjects is not faulty.

No Knock Warrants felonious????? Come on! Criminals and those that choose to engage in illegal behavior do not desrve the niceties of a door bell. Why? So they can arm themselves? Flush the drugs?

You have some wacky, unthought out, baseless assertion here.
"1)home invasion" For a LEO to found guilty of this you would have to prove criminal intent. ie ROBBING THE PLACE! Not acting in the general interest of the welfare and general safety of the law abiding public.

"2)shooting into an occupied dwelling" WHAT IF SOMEONE IS SHOOTING OUT OF THE OCCUPIED DWELLING ???? What would you have the cops do. Call "time out" and have the perp agree to move 500 feet from any dwelling or place of business so they can have a fair firearms exchange??? Hell let's give him a ride to the nearest open field!

"3)placing or launching a destructive device into an occupied dwelling to gain entry, just to name a few." WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT. Destuctive device would conote a bomb of some type. The last time that happened was in Philly with the MOVE group. One incident, and there were consequences for the lack of foresight of the Philly PD.
"4)execution of perp, or innocent" HUH?

Using your rationale I guess if you justifiably shoot a criminal invading your home who has displayed a weapon and told you he's going to kill you, Me being the DA will have to charge you with the unlawful discharge of a firearm in an occupied dwelling. Or maybe you just "excecuted" an innocent since he didn't shoot you yet?




Link Posted: 3/10/2001 9:37:04 PM EST
[#9]
Damn 4000 Char Max!!!!

If you apply some common sense to your weak contentions you'll find that most public safety agencies work under a federal, state or local charter empowering them to do such things as use deadly physical force.

Hey! I like the use of sourceless quotes in your argument, it really lend credibility to it.

I saw here in a post by a med student that a doctor on teaching rounds in the hospital was spouting some anti-gun stat about how a child is shot every 57 second with a gun in the US. That would mean 63.1 kids and hour times the 8760 hours in a year for a grand total of 552,756. I'd believe that! Give us some solid real info. Go to the USUHS/CONTOMS web site that tracks info like rates of injury and fatalities during civilian law enforcement usage of special teams.

Hey, I'll agree kicking in the wrong door is bad. If someone dies it's worse. Of course there is a tremendous amount of culpability of the idiots that do it. NO ONE would endorse a team that consistanly does that! Duh! But almost all don't phuck up like that.

FBI Report??? Terrorist? What are you saying? Are you contending that the FBI has declared SWAT teams rogue terrorists subjegating large segments of the population through fear and intimidation? Or are you taking YOUR opinion, and merging it with the use of FBI and the dictionary definition of a terrorist in the same sentence to lend more credence to your argument. You know what really got me mad? When the Phoenix Police SWAT team massacared those Israeli hostages back at the Munich games in '72. That really got me going!

Your classification of LE as terrorists, civil rights violators, terminators, executors of the innocent smacks of the respect and honor shown to those who served in Vietnam, as you say you did. Maybe I could generalize that all who served in Vietnam were babykillers, murderers and loved the thrill of chasing down and murdering innocent civilians? But I know better. Is that a fair assumption of your military service. I'm only calling it as I see it. I'm also sure you would say different as well.

You provoked my thoughts. I really enjoy this. Honest.
Link Posted: 3/11/2001 3:59:03 AM EST
[#10]
Link Posted: 3/11/2001 4:15:03 AM EST
[#11]
Being that you are from NY a now POLICE STATE the response of yours below was expected, wonder why?
CRIMINAL INTENT? Read your oath of office, then look in the mirrior, you will see the criminal intent! Denial of the power of the constitution, "is criminal intent", but you think you are exempt don't you?
Andreusan  

Quoted:
Thanks for coming back andreu. Ban Ban Ban. You sound like HCI. Banning things is just a short sighted knee jerk reaction to a perceived problem.

Are there problems? Sure, no one denies that. Things could be better implemented and run. But the concept of a specially trained team called to deal with extremely dangerous subjects is not faulty.

No Knock Warrants felonious????? Come on! Criminals and those that choose to engage in illegal behavior do not desrve the niceties of a door bell. Why? So they can arm themselves? Flush the drugs?

You have some wacky, unthought out, baseless assertion here.
"1)home invasion" For a LEO to found guilty of this you would have to prove criminal intent. ie ROBBING THE PLACE! Not acting in the general interest of the welfare and general safety of the law abiding public.

"2)shooting into an occupied dwelling" WHAT IF SOMEONE IS SHOOTING OUT OF THE OCCUPIED DWELLING ???? What would you have the cops do. Call "time out" and have the perp agree to move 500 feet from any dwelling or place of business so they can have a fair firearms exchange??? Hell let's give him a ride to the nearest open field!

"3)placing or launching a destructive device into an occupied dwelling to gain entry, just to name a few." WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT. Destuctive device would conote a bomb of some type. The last time that happened was in Philly with the MOVE group. One incident, and there were consequences for the lack of foresight of the Philly PD.
"4)execution of perp, or innocent" HUH?

Using your rationale I guess if you justifiably shoot a criminal invading your home who has displayed a weapon and told you he's going to kill you, Me being the DA will have to charge you with the unlawful discharge of a firearm in an occupied dwelling. Or maybe you just "excecuted" an innocent since he didn't shoot you yet?




View Quote
Link Posted: 3/11/2001 3:13:12 PM EST
[#12]
My problem is with the Federal Military Police. There has been a long tradtion in this country of not using the Army for internal disputes. This has sometimes been broken, but now it has just fallen apart.
Before the 1930's the FBI was only allowed to assist the local police forces, they were not even issued weapons, now every agency in the book had their own no-knock raid team. They are sexy and glamorous, but un-necessary.
Link Posted: 3/11/2001 6:55:22 PM EST
[#13]
Garandman, You sound like one of those genuises that say something like "Why didn't the cops just shoot the gun out of his hand?" or "They shoud of just shot him in the leg." If you would look into the incident you would find that one of the gunmen was shot 29 times. The gunmen toting BATTLE RIFLES were attired in head to toe, literally, in body armor that defeated EVERYTHING the cops threw at them. Your assertion that a police officer armed with a 9mm pistol could squeeze off a "well placed shot" at a target the size of a small pie plate is ludicrous. Especially when the pie plate is spewing out full auto .308 at you. One gunman was finally felled by......HIS OWN .357 to the head!The second gunman finally surrendered after he gun ran out of ammo under a hail of police bullets.

PS The LAPD didn't have rifles in patrol cars at the time of the North Hollywood incident. AR-15's were provided by a local gun store to the PD
Link Posted: 3/11/2001 7:26:50 PM EST
[#14]
Andy, uh thanks for reposting my post. I thought we were debating, not spouting some Kill The Pigs gibberish.

Mind you though I'm defending the cops, I ain't one. Though I will admit to being on staff at the local PD academy for 2 and 1/2 years before I went back out to the ambulances.

Your assumption of evil in the heart of every LEO you encounter really debases any opining you do about how bad the LE community is. Your arguments have no credibility.

NY a police state??? Yeah I hate those roadblocks on the way to work. Ugh. And my ID and travel papers being checked at the Nassau Suffolk Border every time I head in to work....

I live in NY and that automatically denotes my "expected" demeanor and attitude? Where da fvck youse from? I was born and raised in Massachusetts. Please!

Put up something articulate, or vaguely repsonsive to a post here, I'm having fun.

You seem pretty angry. I hope you don't take all this too seriously.
Hey! In all reality I'd go to the range with any of you, hang targets, share ammo, I'm feeling a lot of love here.



Link Posted: 3/13/2001 5:51:21 AM EST
[#15]
Emotion, emotion, emotion, well kiddies lets take a bland look at the "deadly" hollywood bank robery.

1. The only people with automatic weapons were the two bad guys.

2. The bad guys were not going to wait around for the swat clowns (see:mall ninjas) to suit up, show up and formulate a plan.

3. Of the several hundred rounds fired that day the only fatalaties (sp?) were the guys with the automatic weapons.

4. Now firure out how many rounds were fired by the bad guys and how many struck people to come up with a hit percentage. Whoever does this will find out it was insanely low.

5. If one was to make a judgement based on the facts one could say that the criminals in this case could have been far more effective by spending more time at the range and firing single well placed shots (sounds like my old DI)

6. Once again we see that "spray and pray" does nothing but waste ammo and make for interesting news footage.

By the way the street cops who had the gonads to show up to this thing should be thanked on a daily basis for their bravery and ingenuity in the face of fire.

Note: the most common response given by the beat cops at the scene was "I was just doing my job"

Semper Fidelis
Link Posted: 3/13/2001 11:50:09 AM EST
[#16]
Yep they were doing their jubs with inadiquit fire power. If they had a good AR15 semi auto or a Rem 7oo they might have been able to stop them alot faster. We dont have a swat team in my department. Only 6 officers. But 4 of us have purchased our own AR's and use them for duty. I agree that well placed shats are important. That is why mine is semi auto, but it is nice to know that I have something that I can engage someone with that also has some sort of rifle. Around here were hunting is so popular most of the man with a gun calls I have gone to have been domestics and the guy usualy has a long gun of some sort. It is the classic story Ive heared over and over. You will hate them untill you have to call them for help. My .02 worth.
Link Posted: 3/13/2001 12:20:42 PM EST
[#17]
http://dailynews.yahoo.com/h/wlwt/20010312/lo/333920_1.html

Monday March 12 11:56 PM EST

               Officers Repeatedly Raid Woman's Home

               Police have raided the home of an Avondale woman twice in one week in part because she has the same last name as a
               murder suspect.

                                   WLWT Eyewitness News 5's Ryan Owens reports that Mary Watkins said that she is in no
                                   way related to wanted murder suspect Joe Watkins. But the mother of two said that police came
                                   into her home with guns and ransacked her house last Thursday, and then did it again Monday.
                                   She said that the police waved guns in front of both her and her 8-year-old son.

                                   "Sorry is just too small a word for what they did," Watkins said.

                                   Police said they acted on an anonymous tip from the Crime Stoppers hotline Thursday when they
                                   surrounded Watkins' home. They thought that the murder suspect was Watkins' brother.

                                   Owens reports that Watkins filed a complaint with District 4 police after the Thursday incident.
               But because the complaint never left the district, officers from the violent crimes task force visited her again Monday and
               searched her home.

               Police said that they had a right to check the woman's apartment because her last name matched that of the suspect's. But
               they said that they were sorry that her house was inspected twice.

               Watkins said that an apology is not enough.
Link Posted: 3/13/2001 12:55:51 PM EST
[#18]
SWAT should have only one purpose - to diffuse sutiations that have gotten out of hand for regular LEO (like a bank robbery or hostage situation).  There is no reason for them to be conducting no-knock raids and such - it's dangerous both for citizens and for our freedom!  Agencies besides the FBI (who should work through local LE) and large cities shouldn't have them, either - they serve no practical use except in a police state because the potential for abuse of their power is so great!
Link Posted: 3/13/2001 2:41:44 PM EST
[#19]
Link Posted: 3/13/2001 3:19:12 PM EST
[#20]
Quoted:
Garandman, You sound like one of those genuises that say something like "Why didn't the cops just shoot the gun out of his hand?" or "They shoud of just shot him in the leg." If you would look into the incident you would find that one of the gunmen was shot 29 times. The gunmen toting BATTLE RIFLES were attired in head to toe, literally, in body armor that defeated EVERYTHING the cops threw at them. Your assertion that a police officer armed with a 9mm pistol could squeeze off a "well placed shot" at a target the size of a small pie plate is ludicrous. Especially when the pie plate is spewing out full auto .308 at you. One gunman was finally felled by......HIS OWN .357 to the head!The second gunman finally surrendered after he gun ran out of ammo under a hail of police bullets.

PS The LAPD didn't have rifles in patrol cars at the time of the North Hollywood incident. AR-15's were provided by a local gun store to the PD
View Quote


Your point? If the cops had a simple bolt action long rifle in one of their cars, I doubt the body armor those punks wore would have defeated it. You don't need a whole special "team," just a little common sense. I still do not see the use for cops to be concerned about being "outgunned." Concepts like suppressive fire and such make no sense in an urban law enforcement role where your backstop is often filled with innocent bystanders. Carefully aimed, well placed shots are the only responsible option. We don't need firefights in urban areas.
Link Posted: 3/13/2001 9:37:59 PM EST
[#21]
NO MORE SWAT, NO MORE SWAT, GET BACK TO REAL POLICE TYPES WHO KNOW WHAT THE CONSTITUTION IS, AND THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN THE BAD GUYS AND THE MAN THAT IS MURDERED WHEN SWAT RAIDED THE WRONG HOUSE!

Even the old timers, say SWAT SUCKS!

I say again, take away their toys, make em walk the beat, then make em learn the constitution, the bill of rights, and respect for the people they are to supposed protect and serve.

Link Posted: 3/13/2001 10:25:36 PM EST
[#22]
cant think of anything great to say except im glad they are there when we need em, and really wish we didnt.
Link Posted: 3/14/2001 4:31:39 AM EST
[#23]
Please stop the BS about "you'll be glad they're there when you need them". Watching the vast majority of these clowns in action dosen't give me a shread of confidence. Anyone who has seen real operators in action knows that these clowns are nothing but paper tigers, one cannot begin to fathom in their wildest REMF (no explenation needed) dreams the amount of conditioning, training and dedication (not the kind you see falsely portrayed on TV)that has to be put forth to be effective in the role filled by LEO. Give the beat cops a good bolt or semi and turn them loose. By the way you can't seriously tell me that a 12 ga. slug wouldn't defeat 99% of todays body armor.


by the way, I love the space shuttle analogy
Semper Fidelis
Link Posted: 3/14/2001 4:51:41 AM EST
[#24]
Instead of banning SWAT...

Why don't we just ban TROLLS who exhibit signs of Multiphasic Personality Dysfunction aggravated by advanced and Terminal Mental Rickets?


Link Posted: 3/14/2001 5:24:03 AM EST
[#25]
just my .02 worth, then I am not looking at this one again.  We have gone from a discussion to a rant.

I am a police officer.  I am not on the SWAT team.  I have been to 4 hostage situations in the last 2 years, and I was glad that the SWAT guys could handle it.  My city has 90k people, and we have a SWAT team.  We also very clear cut policies that say when and how the team will be used.  Maybe we are blessed, but the system that we have in place works.  We also issue AR-15s and shotguns.  Our SWAT team is not perfect, but they are aware of their shortcommings.


I highly doubt that anyone could see "a vast majority of these teams", simply because there are so many and it is mostly the screw-ups make the news.  I don't think that every agency needs a SWAT team, and I don't think that all the teams out there are necessary or sufficient in their training or equipment.  Our guys use military surplus stuff because the military gives it away, and our agency can't even afford to pay us all the time("manditory comptime" and "manpower rejection of comptime" mean much to any of you LEOs out there?)

I am going home, and if it takes an AR-15, 48 rounds of .40, or 10 rounds of buckshot; if I am running over someone with my car, cutting them with my knife, or pummeling them with my fists, I will go home.  Even if it takes a SWAT team doing the job while I sit on the perimeter because I lack the equipment, training, and experience to do the jop

pat
Link Posted: 3/14/2001 5:36:54 AM EST
[#26]
Quoted:


I am going home, and if it takes an AR-15, 48 rounds of .40, or 10 rounds of buckshot; if I am running over someone with my car, cutting them with my knife, or pummeling them with my fists, I will go home.  Even if it takes a SWAT team doing the job while I sit on the perimeter because I lack the equipment, training, and experience to do the jop

pat
View Quote



What the Hell does that mean?


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