Well guys, let er rip!

Gotta ban SPAM first. SPAM SPAM SPAM SPAM.

Not ban, but restrict.  Restrict their usage, their rules of engagement, restrict no-knock warrants.

That's right...Get the LEO's who are on this board, and who are on our side really pissed off...

I'm a LEO !! Don't make me mad or I'll write you a ticket.. [:)] Hehe.. Each person is entitled to his own opinion, so it doesn't really piss me off..

Of course there are many good reasons for police agencies to have SWAT teams. But give me just ONE good reason why Fish and Game, EPA, or for that matter IRS should have them. If these agencies are preparing to apprehend a suspect or suspects that are known to be dangerous enough to need a SWAT team, they should use a team from an agency that legitimately has them.
I read somewhere that EPA has upwards of 20 seperate teams. What the hell do they need even ONE for?  I chalk this up to the libs attempting to keep a standing army in the wings in case they're needed. Then again what do I know....

I think SWAT's role should be better defined, and the ways and means to employ them revamped and restricted.  I agree the EPA, IRS, and even the ATF really has no reason to have SWAT teams, if they need one then they should have to employ a team from the area in wich the arrest will be made.  That way at least the local Sheriff will get notified, as it is now they don't have to notifiy the locals and I think that is wrong as well.  And as one final note they ought to close down the EPA I really dislike those guys, almost as much as the ATF.

Some PDs have voluntarily disbanded SWAT-type teams.  "Self-policing" at its best, I suppose.  

Posted before and I'll post it again.
"A bill to make it illegal for any law enforcement agency to use any military or paramilitary equipment or weapons". There is NO reason for police to use any of this equipment other than to get their jollies playing SEAL and I defy anyone to refute this.

And by the way, screw canada

So what exactly do you mean by "any military or paramilitary equipment or weapons"?  A strict interpretation of that would mean no Beretta 92's or Sig 228's, since the military uses them.  No M60's or tanks, great.  No 9mm pistols or AR15's?  Not very practical.  When SWAT shows up at the bank robbery gone bad in your town, wouldn't you want them to have the equipment they need to handle the situation?

I remember watching the Elian Gonzales raid aftermath, and one of the excuses used for sending in the para military unit was that there may have been a gun in the home.

Assuming that more than 50% of the homes in the USA have at least one firearm, it's pretty safe to also assume that when a federal agency wants into your home, they can use the same tactic because there is better than an even chance that there may be a gun in your home.

Scary, isn't it?

Liability wise, police departments can't afford to not have a team available.  However, a lot of problems would be solved if the many of the smaller agencies would admit that they don't have the resources to properly train, equip, and maintain a team, and just called on the folks who know what they are doing when a team is needed.  Lots of problems occur when Billy-Bob the Sheriff of Podunk Co. throws four or five deputies together and calls them a SWAT team.

As far as the Feds go, no, they don't need teams for the most part.  They should disband theirs and ask local teams for assistance with high-risk warrants.  That would add another safeguard, as many municipalities would tell them to go scratch if it was a BS warrant, because they wouldn't want to take on the liability.  Most of the folks working for EPA, IRS, etc.  shouldn't even have sharpened pencils, let alone pistols.  God forbid they should have MP5's and a no-knock warrant.

"That's right...Get the LEO's who are on this board, and who are on our side really pissed off..."

As a LEO, you ain't gonna piss me off with this thread.  This is a subject that comes up quite a bit in the law enforcement community.  You are starting to see small communities (I'm talking less than 10,000 population) organizing their own SWAT,HRT,SORT or whatever term they like.  Is it because they all want to play Rambo?  Maybe.  I don't think anyone could deny that doesn't happen.  Cool toys make cool guys, right?  However, the majority of the teams are formed as a knee jerk reaction to what is happening in this world.  Bank robbers with more firepower than the entire department; kids shooting up schools; Oklahoma City, Waco, etc.  Police chiefs see these events and begin to think, gee.. what if my department comes up against this?  Can we handle it?  Will some of my officers die because I didn't start a SWAT team like all the other departments are doing?  It's a pendulum effect just like everything else in this world.  Things seem to go from one extreme to the other.  Just like all the sexual harrassment cases.  First, a boss could do anything or say anything he/she wanted to and get away with it.  Then, it went from that to where you can't say a damn thing without getting sued.  Eventually, there will be a balance.  The pendulum will swing from one side to the other and eventually settle in the middle.  The same with these SWAT teams.  We are now seeing the pendulum swing to the side of every podunk town having a SWAT team with a bunch of boys dressed like ninjas who may or may not be properly trained.  My own personal opinion is that a majority of these SWAT teams will slowly go away after the city councils, aldermen and citizens see that the return on the investment just isn't there.  In the meantime, I would encourage everyone to get involved in their own city or county government.  Find out what your local law enforcement departments are doing and don't be afraid to voice your concerns to the people who represent you.  While you're at it, find out the type and number of task forces your LEO's are involved in.  In my humble opinion, some of these task forces are more dangerous than any SWAT team.  The intelligence sharing being done represents more of a danger to your personal liberty than you realize.

I live in a 'ski resort" town. Believe it or not we actually had a SWAT team. After 2 years of very little activity they disbanded. Our tax dollars paid for this 'joke' in a area with very little crime. Why?

Yes military weapons, there is no better CQB weapon than a pump 12 ga./00 buck (despite what you think you are not going to enter a room and "neutralize" a suspect thus saving the day), there is no better 200 meter and under scoped rifle than a Rem. 700 30-06, and there is no finer pistol  than a Colt Python .357 (if you need 15 rounds you suck). As for someone's freakin' crybaby "outgunned" argument three words "learn to shoot". Another tidbit "respect is not automatic it is earned" i.e. cool heads, reality and sound decisions will always win out over thirty something, overweight Walter Mitty types playing ninja. I find nothing more amusing than the shock and disbelief displayed by ATF agents durring the Waco massacre that someone would actualy resist their laughable "dynamic" screw-up. This was replayed again in Colombine when these rediculously equiped SQUAT team loosers cluster f*cked around while two worthless sacks of crap shot inocent children (the departments moment of truth). Time and time again LEO's seem to forget fortune favors the bold. As for those LEO's who are offended by this little rant remember one thing, if the truth hurts, you must have chosen the wrong road a long time ago.

Wow this 1st amendment stuff feels good,
God Bless America

Tray, seems like you're not the most popular guy in your department.

Semper Fi

Yes, I agree that MJTF groups do represent a clear and present danger to our liberties, and everyone had better wake up to this real threat of MJTF!

How can you ban this?  It's a beautiful group picture!

[img]swat.swat3.net/full_team.jpg[/img]

Chow: The Armchair warrior. Has all the answers.
Thanks but no thanks.

One of the most amusing and , at the same time, sad things I see working at a shooting range is what we call "Range Ninjas."

A range ninja is someone that joined the police force to kill people.

I have met alot of police officers who do not fit this profile; for the most part, cops just want to serve their commmunity and I respect that.

What scares me is that these "Range Ninjas" come out in their Black BDUs, Response boots, every other word out of their mouth is TACTICAL: Tactical belt, Tactical holster, tactical earring? tactical boot knife, tactical shoe laces...etc...

Anyway, these guys come out with their badges hanging around their necks, wearing aviator glasses and try to be hot sh*t.

Then, they blame their performance on their equipment.

What if these were the idiots to respond to a store that I was in and I was being held hostage?

Would I trust these idiots to do anything? H*ll no!

What concerns me is there seems to be no real guidance for some of these teams and some of these guys are flat out stupid.
They know it all, they think they are above the law and they are going to act too quickly.

This is the profound problem.

It seems politics has a way of influencing these young officers ascent into the ranks where they can be stupid.

I hope that the more level-headed LEOs are soon to take over this out of control group of FNGs.

H*ll, I am still in college and I even think these guys are crazy.
I just hope none of them get into the Nouremburg mentality.

Early Chow Recruit;

I refute you.  How's [i]THAT[/i] for defiance?

"these are useful idiots"

Joseph Stalin, Soviet Dictator

"these are useful idiots"

Joseph Stalin, Soviet Dictator

Police departments could not spend all the tax dollars in their budgets, so swat or tact whatever you call it was brought into play. It's a waste of money and manpower. The cop on the beat does more good than the military wanna be's. Just my $.02

Hark ! I have been defied ! I will make a dynamic, tactical, ninja, ranger, special ops, recon post to refute your defiance.

sorry about the double posts
[smash]

Early Chow Recruit:
"Tray, seems like you're not the most popular guy in your department."

You are making some assumptions that aren't based in fact.  It appears that you have "assumed" that most if not all LEO's are gung ho when it comes to SWAT.  That simply is not true.  You would be surprised how many LEOs have the same attitude I have.  Do we see a need for SWAT?  In certain incidents, definately.  Do we need them for standard warrant service or arrests? Definatley not.  The vast majority of incidents where a SWAT team would make a difference is over by the time the team makes the scene.  Hostage situations and certain high risk searches (notice I said CERTAIN) can benefit from SWAT.  As for me?  I carry a good ole 1911 Gov't Model .45.  But I also don't go anywhere unless my AR10 or AR15 is in my squad.  Why?  One simple reason:  I plan on going home when my shift is over.  Nothing more, nothing less.  Don't automatically think that just because someone puts a badge on their chest they instantly become assholes who could care less about the rights of the citizen.  It just ain't so.

    Chow, your opinion seems to be based more on emotion than a cognitive recognition of the facts. Obviosly as we advance (or decay depending on your view) as a society we learn from experience. What LE has learned is that a basic police officer with a police academy education only does not belong in the long term management of a heightened situation such as a hostage incident or a barricaded armed subject. A street officer isn't equipped to make entry on a drug house with steel doors, welded bers on the windows, booby trsaps and well armed felons.

    For a majority of mid-size to large departments these days not having a plan can actually cause more vicarious liability than having the developed resources and a programmed response to incidents to protect the safety of the public. You wouldn't want the street cop trying to blow a lock of a door with his side arm or a shotgun slug. I'd rather have him do it with frangible rounds. I'd rather have them be properly equipped to properly enter and safely do their job.

    I know it's low in the argument repetoire but let me perosnalize a scenario for you. You have a few family members in a bank that's being robbed. Do you want the first five cops that show up to enter with four 9mm pistols and that great CQB 12 ga? Or do you want a qualified team to do the job?

    I don't want the two guys holed up in a liquor store looking out the window and after seeing the full response mode of the local PD say to themselves "Hmmm, I think we can take these guys!" I want them to see an agency that by looking at them says "You(the bad guys) can't win." Chow, you tag every post with a Semper Fi. Maybe you have some problems with the USMC usage on the overwhelming force of a MAGTAF? Maybe youd like to have line marines from a TOW company do some CQB house clearing instead of a trained FAST team? Maybe you hope that most ops would end up like Somalia? Why should civilian LE be any less disadvanteged than the criminals they face. They need the training and deserve it. Skills that are used by LE in these endevors are perishable skills, and therefore constanly need to be honed and kept fresh.

    Lastly, of course there are problems and tragic incidents. No one will ever deny that. The occurance of tragic incidents and mistakes can usually be chalked up to poor command/leadership , poor training or poor planning. When properly trained, tasked and implemented there is a very low occurance of anyone getting hurt(except the bad guys). I'm all for the SWAT, SRU, SORT, ERT, RRT guys to do their work.

If your gonna win, win big, not by the skin of your teeth.

"Tragic incidents" with little to no accountability. Say a homeowner confronts a burglar and holds him for the police. While the crook is on the ground the shotgun that the homeowner has pointed at him accidently goes off. What would happen to this person?

Thought about professional help, Chow?

Bravo! This deserves repeating! Over and over again!

And for those who'd like to read one of the earliest reports about the Columbine SWAT team fiasco, BEFORE the lame stream media got to put the spin on it, here's a link to ABP.com's article: [url]http://www.apbonline.com/newscenter/breakingnews/1999/04/21/sh_swat0421_01.html[/url]

I agree for the most part with early chow. "For the most part" being that I do think there are  still some reputable and well deserved law enforcement agency's in the US with squared away SWAT, Hostage rescue teams etc...and you know who you are. The shame in it is when you turn on your TV and see these ass backwards, community college, criminal justice major, shitbag wannabe's with the I sprained my knee excuse for why they didn't join the military or my personally favorite excuse " 11 bravo (army) 0300 (Marines) infantry mos's were closed " (BREATH!!!!!) These guys not only make me sick but they are a danger to themselves, fellow officers and the public. If you want to see these guys in action just turn the TV on and watch cops. You'll see four fat @#$%'s come mobbing out of some getto car flagging everybody with weapons and goat rope into some crackhouse...i mean no wonder people want to ban weapons (look whos leading the example!!!!) im done, pisses me off too much to continue.
For all you Operators out there doing the real deal...SEMPER FI [X] 03 out

By the way Chow:
My earlier post was in no way intended to be a flame.  Just my .02

Tray

WE COULD EVEN SWAT BANNERS
WE COULD SWAT FLIES
WE COULD BAN LAWYERS
what we shuold is STOP BANNING SHI@#@!#$

Some issues:

1. How do we control an agency - once created - from being used in situations other than those like you describe. I mean, does entering a single family Florida house with zero illegal gang or drug activity and no special reinforced doors warrant such tactics. Janet Reno seemed to think so.

2. I could present a valid argument that the problem the Rangers faced in Somalia was magnified BECAUSE of their tactics. They had managed to PISS OFF every single household in the city to the point of hatred. I know from experience that Rangers tend to have an Us vs Them mindset - most cheered on the invasion to secure Elian Gonzalez and most think Randy Weaver's wife should have been shot. That is the Ranger mindset. This is from my personal interraction with former Rangers. Do we really want this kind of attitude / mindset in civilian agencies (especially to the point where they don't even consider themselves civilians)? The Army has a hard enough time controlling it.

3. (I am surprised no one has said this yet) The only real need for such special teams is to keep our nation's malls secure [:)]


White

edited because I can't type

Within the past 18 months there have been an increasing number of robberies and attemts to rob banks, convenience stores, motels etc. in my area (west central Mo).  Most locals know that the nearest response team is 80+ miles away.  In most incidents a local nut caused the ruckus.  Would the threat of a SWAT unit have affected their decision to commit a crime??  On that note... Would the right to carry a concealed weapon kept these people at bay??  Who would rob the Quickie-Mart if the guy buying a Snickers MIGHT be packin' heat??
The power of suggestion is powerful.
The best way to fight crime is to deter it.
If SWAT presence will deter crime,
then SO BE IT!

but where's the balaclavas (kkk hoods robber masks)I wouldn't want them to get burned by flying brass and have a scar like oper8or did, poor guy.

Would Waco have happened if the ATF been forced to go thru the local sheriff? We may never know for sure,but maybe the bigger hammer is not always best. We need SWAT teams, but we also need to know when and when not to use them.

I agree with Tray. SWAT, SRT, ERT, etc are what many administrators in our profession consider a "Necessary Evil."

"There is nothing wrong with a police state"
As long as you are the State Police.





Hehehehehehe


Hunter out...

Tray, thanks for the reply I agree that a cohesive group of individuals may be necissary 1% of the time but parading around in ninja wear is counterproductive. I will deffer to my earlier post ridiculing the sideliners who allow this gross expenditure to take place. I must be insane to believe that when one operates on confiscated goods and taxpayer funds they should be held to the highest standards. Also then the majority should realize the negative impact that these "teams" are having on the perception of your departments. And as for sherm8404's argument, it is completely emotional, the sole purpose of the military is to kill people and break things post haste. The whole point is that there is little to no reason to "clear a house" when you hold all the cards and I do mean all. Secondly you cannot tell me that in your wildest fantasys that any criminal you have seen has ever been as sophisticated or proficent as the ones seen in the movies, if they were the use of SQUAT would be the worst possible scenario. If for some insane reason the bad guys were that proficient watching these bungeling idiots arrive on the scene would reinforce the notion that "yeah, we know we can take these guys". Please don't ever try to equate police work with the military as nothing has a more chilling effect than that assumption.

by the way former 0331/0352
no I didn't have bad knees
no that field wasn't full
and I damn well know the difference between a firefight and a punk with a .25 auto

Semper Fi

check this out (my hero !)

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell.html

check this out (my hero !)

http://www.jewishworldreview.com/cols/sowell.html

Oh yeah ! sherm, how do you come up with a programmed response to a dynamic situation ?

I defy thee also! (forgot to do that on the first post!)

The same way every agency in the country does. Based on observation of past situations, SOP's and whatever is trendy in law enforcement these days. A warrant being served requires only certain assets, a hostage situation would get a different reponse.

    I happened to work in NYC for a few years for EMS. In the arena of Mass Casulty Incidents, the patient count dictates the number of ambulances that respond.  NYPD utilizes borough wide task forces to respnd to your larger incidents (i.e. a programmed response) At times of civil unrest or large scale protest there would be a Level 1, Level 2 etc etc mobilization based on the size of the "dynamic situation."  By dynamic I mean a situation that changes, rapidly or slowly. Resources are then increased or released as they are needed or not. That is where having a plan for every eventuality benefits the public. The Marines do it the same way. i.e. Situation X would get an MEB, an MEU or a MEF depending on the scope of a incident. That's just common sense.

Is it the verbiage that irks you? A "programmed response" to a "dynamic incident." If it is get used to it. All PD's, FD's, EMS agencies have set responses that are delegated by incident type. This is really applicable on small scale stuff too!

Good debating with you. [:)]

Which NEC's are 0332 and 0352? Just curious.

Second you on the Screw Canada
HM3 Sherman FMF USNR (maybe I lost your shot record once?) [:D]

ack ! defied again, so you're the bastard that lost my shot record, I've been looking for you. Never minded the verbage just the context in which it is thrown around. I'm an EMS helicopter pilot and the area I operate in is also covered by a public service operation (please don't get me started) I too work annual MCI drills and the bungeling of public service officials never ceases to amaze me. After observing federal, state and local agencies in action I can truthfuly state that I'm hard pressed to trust these types with anything complicated. By the way isn't this debate thing fun ? A mad shout out (what the hell does this mean ?) to Andreusan for the topic.

0331 Machinegunner (heavy girls M2/MK19)
0352 TOW Antitank (Tired Of Walking)
Helicopter training financed by sodom husein (thanks you rag headed bastard)

Chow! Yeah You! You need an HIV draw and a tetanus. Whaddya mean you did it last month? No, it's not in the record. Sure you can talk to my chief, then when your done come back and give me your blood! [}:D]

Honestly, I agree little podunk towns do not need their own little SEAL team to make up for their tiny...uh...departments. But when properly implemented they certainly save a lot of cops an ass whippin or two. I grew up in Mass(yeah great gun laws there) and they do regional response teams and the state police have a team. Not every little town.


Just spent my last drill weekend with heavy guns 2nd Mar/25th Batt in the snow at West Point with the Mk19. Goddamn that's fun!!! Makes me wish I wasn't a squid.

I'd thank andreusan too, but who likes the guy that throws the first punch and then doesn't stick around for the fight![:D]

I'm here, and I say BAN EM ALL, for they cannot stand the test of the Constitution, to which they all pledged an oath to uphold, and do not! I know, these are strong words, but true none the less.

Some of you may not like what I write below, I make no excuses, and the following is NOT intended to be anything but thought provoking, keeping in mind it needs to be spoken about and not brushed aside!

Example: Here in Florida, in order to effect a NO KNOCK DYNAMIC ENTRY, "a series of felonies, and constitutional violations must be committed by the entry team", even though a judge may have signed an order or whatever,
"question is can such an order of no knock or otherwise be lawful and constitutional?" Surely the other states have the same issues.

Some outright felonies by SWAT in Florida, to which law enforcement personnel are not exempt to in the law, especially when a death occurs,(see 790. series statutes "weapons and firearms"),

1)home invasion,
2)shooting into an occupied dwelling,
3)placing or launching a destructive device into an occupied dwelling to gain entry, just to name a few.
4)execution of perp, or innocent.

SWAT members being judge, jury and terminator "even the bad guy is entitled to one appeal, however, only after a conviction, a vast majority of these so-called bad guys are only charged and never convicted, in America, are not we innocent until proven guilty?

YES, I have heard, "I killed em in self defense", but in reality and operating within the bounds placed upon you and your employer by the constitution, were you there lawfully, or did you violate the perps or innocents constitutional rights, and get away with it because the state will not charge their inforcers, because of loyality issues?????

NOTE: There are no less than twelve self defense cases decided in the lower courts, that, "an individual can take the life of anyone including police officers (nothing personal here guys just the facts) who are violating the individuals constitutional rights!" "SAY WHAT?" Yep, want a copy of the cases, just e-mail me your fax number!

How about the innocent murdered people of questionable boched raids on the wrong houses, were not their constitutional rights violated too"

"DOMESTIC TERRORISM" directed against a segment of our society, is being committed too, according to the FBI's current definition of such in their annual publication titled "TERRORISM IN THE UNITED STATES." Read it then apply it to this arguement.

Then there is the fact that SWAT and simular teams are formed as a military units, with ranks, commanders, armed with implements of war, even given military type medals, all of which constitutes an unauthorized standing army! Can anyone prove otherwise? Remember, there still is a constitution it refers to a standing army, militia, can you guess what else, and surely not police? How about the good ole "Bill of Rights and the law!"

The Florida state attorney however never brings forth charges of the felonies committed, for if you charge and hold accountable your enforcers, who would remain loyal?

Let, er rip guys!
Andreusan

 

Andreusan, as you type you are becoming the target of mall ninjas across the fruited plane.
Besides they are "just doing their jobs" [puke] as for you passive agressive types screw you and your therapy.

Semper Fidelis

And by the way you should be very happy that men with my attitude did, are curently and will in the future endure the bullsh*t to be in the US military. We protect your rights to act like complete asses (and mall ninjas). If you want to live in a police state e-mail me for tickets, I'll be glad to send ya.

I've always been a target of tyrants, and still here!

I myself served in the U.S. MILITARY (LRSD/SPEC-OPS),(COIN-OPS)Nam through P.G. era and only call it as I see it.

One wonders, where the honor has gone these days?

I've always been a target of tyrants, and still here!

I myself served in the U.S. MILITARY (LRSD/SPEC-OPS),(COIN-OPS)Nam through P.G. era and only call it as I see it.

One wonders, where the honor has gone these days?