[ARCHIVED THREAD] - GAME CHANGER: Toshiba develops EV battery that can go 200 Miles after only 6 minutes of charge (Page 4 of 5)
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480 3 phase @ 20 amps would do it, but how many places are going to have that handy for surge use? Not at any sort of affordable rate. Quoted:
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What REALLY REALL REALLY gets neglected in this "200 miles of range in 5 minutes of charging!" is... that is a FUCKTON of power being transferred in such a short period of time. You need a HUGE YUGE YUUUUUUUGGGEEEEE source of power to push that much energy into a battery. Yeah, I think electric cars are good, and I think they'll get much cheaper and much more practical, in part by things like this battery, and yes, I do think that infrastructure will be developed to do this superfast charging... but I always think it's weird as fuck no one bothers to do the math about how much power it actually takes to charge a battery like that in such a short time. If you make the plug 3 phase then the vehicle is going to have to have some heavy duty hardware to take 480 3 phase and charge a 400v battery Also houses dont have 3 phase. most businesses dont have 3 phase This would be an infrastructure night mare coupled with the needed upgrade to the power distribution and generation system to supply this much more power. |
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arent the current charging stations DC for the 400V EV battery? If you make the plug 3 phase then the vehicle is going to have to have some heavy duty hardware to take 480 3 phase and charge a 400v battery Also houses dont have 3 phase. most businesses dont have 3 phase This would be an infrastructure night mare coupled with the needed upgrade to the power distribution and generation system to supply this much more power. Quoted:
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What REALLY REALL REALLY gets neglected in this "200 miles of range in 5 minutes of charging!" is... that is a FUCKTON of power being transferred in such a short period of time. You need a HUGE YUGE YUUUUUUUGGGEEEEE source of power to push that much energy into a battery. Yeah, I think electric cars are good, and I think they'll get much cheaper and much more practical, in part by things like this battery, and yes, I do think that infrastructure will be developed to do this superfast charging... but I always think it's weird as fuck no one bothers to do the math about how much power it actually takes to charge a battery like that in such a short time. If you make the plug 3 phase then the vehicle is going to have to have some heavy duty hardware to take 480 3 phase and charge a 400v battery Also houses dont have 3 phase. most businesses dont have 3 phase This would be an infrastructure night mare coupled with the needed upgrade to the power distribution and generation system to supply this much more power. |
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arent the current charging stations DC for the 400V EV battery? If you make the plug 3 phase then the vehicle is going to have to have some heavy duty hardware to take 480 3 phase and charge a 400v battery Also houses dont have 3 phase. most businesses dont have 3 phase This would be an infrastructure night mare coupled with the needed upgrade to the power distribution and generation system to supply this much more power. |
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Now imagine 4 or 5 of them charging at the same time. [the same as pretty much every gas station you go to] Quoted:
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What REALLY REALL REALLY gets neglected in this "200 miles of range in 5 minutes of charging!" is... that is a FUCKTON of power being transferred in such a short period of time. You need a HUGE YUGE YUUUUUUUGGGEEEEE source of power to push that much energy into a battery. Yeah, I think electric cars are good, and I think they'll get much cheaper and much more practical, in part by things like this battery, and yes, I do think that infrastructure will be developed to do this superfast charging... but I always think it's weird as fuck no one bothers to do the math about how much power it actually takes to charge a battery like that in such a short time. If you make the plug 3 phase then the vehicle is going to have to have some heavy duty hardware to take 480 3 phase and charge a 400v battery Also houses dont have 3 phase. most businesses dont have 3 phase This would be an infrastructure night mare coupled with the needed upgrade to the power distribution and generation system to supply this much more power. If so, why couldn't that take up the lion's share of recharging the batteries while driving? |
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Also houses dont have 3 phase. most businesses dont have 3 phase This would be an infrastructure night mare coupled with the needed upgrade to the power distribution and generation system to supply this much more power. Houses and business also currently don't have their own gas stations. I don't see the need for a 10 minute charge at home. Why not use a standard charge at home (in the 4-8 hour range) and then design the fast charge at a "gas station" that has the infrastructure for it? Current stations have huge tanks to store the gas/fuel. Why not the same principle for electricity? |
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Houses and business also currently don't have their own gas stations. I don't see the need for a 10 minute charge at home. Why not use a standard charge at home (in the 4-8 hour range) and then design the fast charge at a "gas station" that has the infrastructure for it? Current stations have huge tanks to store the gas/fuel. Why not the same principle for electricity? Quoted:
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Also houses dont have 3 phase. most businesses dont have 3 phase This would be an infrastructure night mare coupled with the needed upgrade to the power distribution and generation system to supply this much more power. Why not use a standard charge at home (in the 4-8 hour range) and then design the fast charge at a "gas station" that has the infrastructure for it? Current stations have huge tanks to store the gas/fuel. Why not the same principle for electricity? |
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Maybe it was a stupid question. I'll ask again anyway: Where will the heat go in those six minutes of charging a battery that'll power a car for 200 miles? Will there not be a god-awful lot of heat that'll have to go somewhere? Oh and I would assume that they have an automatic shut off when the battery has been charged so there won't be any overcharging??? |
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We have a Niobium deposit in the US. It is in Nebraska. It is low grade making it uneconomical to mine, particularly in light of how environmentally impactful it is to mine and refine. But if the market value or strategic need was high enough, we have a reserve. NioCorp Nebraska Niobium Deposit There are many other rare earth deposits in the Americas that aren't mined due to economics. But if China gets stingy or prices rise, we can get at it. Given a few more years of development, it will be economical and ecologically sound to mine heavy metals in the US. |
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They have just found out how to program microbes to concentrate certain heavy metals into their cells, and this has been tested in the field. Given a few more years of development, it will be economical and ecologically sound to mine heavy metals in the US. |
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Now imagine 4 or 5 of them charging at the same time. [the same as pretty much every gas station you go to] Quoted:
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What REALLY REALL REALLY gets neglected in this "200 miles of range in 5 minutes of charging!" is... that is a FUCKTON of power being transferred in such a short period of time. You need a HUGE YUGE YUUUUUUUGGGEEEEE source of power to push that much energy into a battery. Yeah, I think electric cars are good, and I think they'll get much cheaper and much more practical, in part by things like this battery, and yes, I do think that infrastructure will be developed to do this superfast charging... but I always think it's weird as fuck no one bothers to do the math about how much power it actually takes to charge a battery like that in such a short time. If you make the plug 3 phase then the vehicle is going to have to have some heavy duty hardware to take 480 3 phase and charge a 400v battery Also houses dont have 3 phase. most businesses dont have 3 phase This would be an infrastructure night mare coupled with the needed upgrade to the power distribution and generation system to supply this much more power. |
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I don't care if the car comes with its own newqueler power plant and has a plug-in bigger around than an 18-wheeler's tires, the battery won't charge in 6 minutes without burning down the owners house.
So, bringing to the personal-car market a battery for a car with a 200 mile range between changes, and one that can be recharded in 6 minutes is unmitigated... 
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Woot! Perpetual motion machine!  Quoted:
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Maybe a stupid question but isn't an auto alternator a 3 phase? If so, why couldn't that take up the lion's share of recharging the batteries while driving? 
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Well now........I DIDN'T mean it that way!!! Quoted:
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Maybe a stupid question but isn't an auto alternator a 3 phase? If so, why couldn't that take up the lion's share of recharging the batteries while driving?
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Houses and business also currently don't have their own gas stations. I don't see the need for a 10 minute charge at home. Why not use a standard charge at home (in the 4-8 hour range) and then design the fast charge at a "gas station" that has the infrastructure for it? Current stations have huge tanks to store the gas/fuel. Why not the same principle for electricity? |
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arent the current charging stations DC for the 400V EV battery? If you make the plug 3 phase then the vehicle is going to have to have some heavy duty hardware to take 480 3 phase and charge a 400v battery Also houses dont have 3 phase. most businesses dont have 3 phase This would be an infrastructure night mare coupled with the needed upgrade to the power distribution and generation system to supply this much more power. Quoted:
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What REALLY REALL REALLY gets neglected in this "200 miles of range in 5 minutes of charging!" is... that is a FUCKTON of power being transferred in such a short period of time. You need a HUGE YUGE YUUUUUUUGGGEEEEE source of power to push that much energy into a battery. Yeah, I think electric cars are good, and I think they'll get much cheaper and much more practical, in part by things like this battery, and yes, I do think that infrastructure will be developed to do this superfast charging... but I always think it's weird as fuck no one bothers to do the math about how much power it actually takes to charge a battery like that in such a short time. If you make the plug 3 phase then the vehicle is going to have to have some heavy duty hardware to take 480 3 phase and charge a 400v battery Also houses dont have 3 phase. most businesses dont have 3 phase This would be an infrastructure night mare coupled with the needed upgrade to the power distribution and generation system to supply this much more power. Figure 3 and text below. |
| I am skeptical given the projected release date. Everything is delayed and over budget, or some scandal comes out that was covered up for decades or years, etc. Everything was about the nuclear fuel cycle, hence the hydrogen buses and other things that could fuel various industries and other things. Toshiba had or has an accounting scandal, if you look for it. Par for the course I guess. |
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480 3 phase @ 20 amps would do it, but how many places are going to have that handy for surge use? Not at any sort of affordable rate. Quoted:
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What REALLY REALL REALLY gets neglected in this "200 miles of range in 5 minutes of charging!" is... that is a FUCKTON of power being transferred in such a short period of time. You need a HUGE YUGE YUUUUUUUGGGEEEEE source of power to push that much energy into a battery. Yeah, I think electric cars are good, and I think they'll get much cheaper and much more practical, in part by things like this battery, and yes, I do think that infrastructure will be developed to do this superfast charging... but I always think it's weird as fuck no one bothers to do the math about how much power it actually takes to charge a battery like that in such a short time.  Not even close, simple math folks
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Look at all the arfcom naysaying.
Again. https://www.wired.com/story/general-motors-electric-cars-plan-gm/ You guys are constantly insisting that everyone is going to driving IC engine cars for forever, ignoring the fact that there are already numerous governments around the world that plan on banning IC cars by 2030 one way or another this thing is coming soon |
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Look at all the arfcom naysaying. Again. https://www.wired.com/story/general-motors-electric-cars-plan-gm/ You guys are constantly insisting that everyone is going to driving IC engine cars for forever, ignoring the fact that there are already numerous governments around the world that plan on banning IC cars by 2030 one way or another this thing is coming soon Look up hubris for the answer. |
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Maybe a stupid question but isn't an auto alternator a 3 phase? If so, why couldn't that take up the lion's share of recharging the batteries while driving? |
| Humans have lots of battery tech that is mind blowing. The problem is economy of scale. A technology can work great in a lab, or small scale like maybe a .gov black project.. but could never be mass produced, uses rare or limited resources, or just cost way too much to ever be practical. |
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Humans have lots of battery tech that is mind blowing. The problem is economy of scale. A technology can work great in a lab, or small scale like maybe a .gov black project.. but could never be mass produced, uses rare or limited resources, or just cost way too much to ever be practical. |
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Look at all the arfcom naysaying. Again. https://www.wired.com/story/general-motors-electric-cars-plan-gm/ You guys are constantly insisting that everyone is going to driving IC engine cars for forever, ignoring the fact that there are already numerous governments around the world that plan on banning IC cars by 2030 one way or another this thing is coming soon Just saying. |
| Just a thought, and maybe I am completely misunderstanding the discussion, but what if by “Capacitor battery hybrid” they mean that this new battery has a bank of high power capacitors which do indeed charge in 6 minutes, but then discharge into a more conventional battery, thus allowing the battery to effectively charge while the car is moving, thus negating the fast self discharge time of the capacitors as they only act as a charger? |
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Just a thought, and maybe I am completely misunderstanding the discussion, but what if by “Capacitor battery hybrid” they mean that this new battery has a bank of high power capacitors which do indeed charge in 6 minutes, but then discharge into a more conventional battery, thus allowing the battery to effectively charge while the car is moving, thus negating the fast self discharge time of the capacitors as they only act as a charger? |
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Well you could have a gas powered generator on hand..................that would somewhat alleviate that problem wouldn't it? Quoted:
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I can keep gas in jerry cans, throw it in the back of the truck, and if I need to use a hand pump to get it out of tanks from stations when there is no power. Can't do that with batteries. I live in Hurricane Alley. Batteries don't work well for me. You'd have to have one hell of a generator on hand to charge a car anyway, let alone charge it in anyway approaching the time that this article claims. |
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Maybe a stupid question but isn't an auto alternator a 3 phase? If so, why couldn't that take up the lion's share of recharging the batteries while driving? Quoted:
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What REALLY REALL REALLY gets neglected in this "200 miles of range in 5 minutes of charging!" is... that is a FUCKTON of power being transferred in such a short period of time. You need a HUGE YUGE YUUUUUUUGGGEEEEE source of power to push that much energy into a battery. Yeah, I think electric cars are good, and I think they'll get much cheaper and much more practical, in part by things like this battery, and yes, I do think that infrastructure will be developed to do this superfast charging... but I always think it's weird as fuck no one bothers to do the math about how much power it actually takes to charge a battery like that in such a short time. If you make the plug 3 phase then the vehicle is going to have to have some heavy duty hardware to take 480 3 phase and charge a 400v battery Also houses dont have 3 phase. most businesses dont have 3 phase This would be an infrastructure night mare coupled with the needed upgrade to the power distribution and generation system to supply this much more power. If so, why couldn't that take up the lion's share of recharging the batteries while driving? "Lisa, in this house we obey the laws of Thermodynamics!" |
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They have a rather low (well, high, relatively) internal resistance that causes them to self-discharge at about the same rate energy is used from them. That's why they are only used as short term backups, and not even large enough for a UPS. Once you get above 6V max, they really deteriorate with each charge/discharge and self-discharge, when talking the 400V from lithium battery packs in cars, capcitors are larger than lithium ion batteries, and have lower mAH/cc. The biggest issue they're going to run into is that our power grid/outlets aren't built for continual 10kW surges when several people in a row decide to charge their car fast. (Estimated power draw after losses) Especially during daytime, when brownouts already happen if more than ¾ of customers have AC running. |
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Maybe I'm misunderstanding your question, but you can't recharge a vehicle with the electrical power output it generates. "Lisa, in this house we obey the laws of Thermodynamics!" Quoted:
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What REALLY REALL REALLY gets neglected in this "200 miles of range in 5 minutes of charging!" is... that is a FUCKTON of power being transferred in such a short period of time. You need a HUGE YUGE YUUUUUUUGGGEEEEE source of power to push that much energy into a battery. Yeah, I think electric cars are good, and I think they'll get much cheaper and much more practical, in part by things like this battery, and yes, I do think that infrastructure will be developed to do this superfast charging... but I always think it's weird as fuck no one bothers to do the math about how much power it actually takes to charge a battery like that in such a short time. If you make the plug 3 phase then the vehicle is going to have to have some heavy duty hardware to take 480 3 phase and charge a 400v battery Also houses dont have 3 phase. most businesses dont have 3 phase This would be an infrastructure night mare coupled with the needed upgrade to the power distribution and generation system to supply this much more power. If so, why couldn't that take up the lion's share of recharging the batteries while driving? "Lisa, in this house we obey the laws of Thermodynamics!"
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I always thought a system of capacitors would be great. Lets say you have 4 systems on one vehicle. All 4 systems are are used at different rates being shuffled through. One will always be getting charged from wheel spin. Then once charged they shuffle through. Quoted:
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They have a rather low (well, high, relatively) internal resistance that causes them to self-discharge at about the same rate energy is used from them. That's why they are only used as short term backups, and not even large enough for a UPS. Once you get above 6V max, they really deteriorate with each charge/discharge and self-discharge, when talking the 400V from lithium battery packs in cars, capcitors are larger than lithium ion batteries, and have lower mAH/cc. The biggest issue they're going to run into is that our power grid/outlets aren't built for continual 10kW surges when several people in a row decide to charge their car fast. (Estimated power draw after losses) Especially during daytime, when brownouts already happen if more than ¾ of customers have AC running. Even Li-Ion batteries being a "mature technology", they'll still explode or start on fire if you mistreat them. Would you feel comfortable sitting beside a box containing 200 MegaJoules of mostly stable energy in a crash (unit conversion ~ 250 tons of dynamite equiv)? |
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Every electric “charging station” gets a gas turbine cogeneration plant. Problem solved. Quoted:
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What REALLY REALL REALLY gets neglected in this "200 miles of range in 5 minutes of charging!" is... that is a FUCKTON of power being transferred in such a short period of time. You need a HUGE YUGE YUUUUUUUGGGEEEEE source of power to push that much energy into a battery. Yeah, I think electric cars are good, and I think they'll get much cheaper and much more practical, in part by things like this battery, and yes, I do think that infrastructure will be developed to do this superfast charging... but I always think it's weird as fuck no one bothers to do the math about how much power it actually takes to charge a battery like that in such a short time. If you make the plug 3 phase then the vehicle is going to have to have some heavy duty hardware to take 480 3 phase and charge a 400v battery Also houses dont have 3 phase. most businesses dont have 3 phase This would be an infrastructure night mare coupled with the needed upgrade to the power distribution and generation system to supply this much more power. Or, you could use the natural gas itself, compress it, and pump it into a on board tank and burn it in a I/C engine very cleanly without all the expensive turbine stuff. |
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Wow... a lot of people seem to think this has to be something you can do at home. It won't be. Or they seem to think that if you CAN'T do it at home, then the whole idea is a failure.
Serious hardware, and power, will be needed for fast charging of EVs. They'll have to be like gas stations. Normally, people will probably charge at home, at much slower rates. The common EVSE (Electric Vehicle Service Equipment - kinda like the 'charger' you plug in at home, then plug your car into, which isn't really a charger, it's just a fancy relay that disconnects the high voltage when a vehicle is not plugged in) at "level 2" uses 2 phase 240V, and can go up to about 7kW. So if you get home at 6PM from work, plug your car in at 7kW worth of power (considering no losses) and don't leave for work until 6AM, you could potentially get 84kWh. Accounting for losses, you'd likely get 70+kWh. Given you probably don't commute 100 miles each way to work (if you do, you're in the <10% of the population), you'd have plenty of time to top off overnight. Most current EVs have several modes, where you can program "Time Of Use" so that your car doesn't start charging until a certain time. There's also "Time Of Departure", where you set the time you'll be leaving, and the car figures out when to start charging. The latter helps balance out local loads, so that the whole neighborhood doesn't all start charging when TOU kicks in. TL;DR - fast charging will be at specific locations, like gas stations. Most charging will be done at home on slower connections as power is limited at residences. |
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On the contrary. That new lithium battery would be a big help for them. Their cars currently run off of several thousand 18650 lithium batteries. These new batteries will shorten the Tesla car's charging time and increase their range. I've wondered why Tesla doesn't incorporate solar cells into the roof, hood, and trunk lid of their cars so they would be constantly charging the batteries as long as they were exposed to the sun. Would just require redesign of regular solar cells into an integrated array that could be designed to appear to be part of the hood, roof, and trunk lid. Quoted:
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Please be the demise of Tesla. I fucking hate that company The next pie in the sky tech that I hope comes true is a big jump in solar cell efficiency. |
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You just cant get enough wattage out of solar panels on a car. These batteries could be great, the recharge time problem has been the big obstacle to widespread adoption of EV's. But the chargers will have to put out serious juice. The next pie in the sky tech that I hope comes true is a big jump in solar cell efficiency. Quoted:
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Please be the demise of Tesla. I fucking hate that company The next pie in the sky tech that I hope comes true is a big jump in solar cell efficiency. The leap in solar technology will be combining Photovoltaic solar with Thermal Solar, through peltier junctions (inefficient 10% of heat power into electric power), or by "cooling" the solar panels with a fluid/gas to expand and drive a turbine like the mirrror farm in the desert. |
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What REALLY REALL REALLY gets neglected in this "200 miles of range in 5 minutes of charging!" is... that is a FUCKTON of power being transferred in such a short period of time. You need a HUGE YUGE YUUUUUUUGGGEEEEE source of power to push that much energy into a battery. Yeah, I think electric cars are good, and I think they'll get much cheaper and much more practical, in part by things like this battery, and yes, I do think that infrastructure will be developed to do this superfast charging... but I always think it's weird as fuck no one bothers to do the math about how much power it actually takes to charge a battery like that in such a short time. |
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The laws of physics & chemistry vs the laws of government. I wonder which wins that argument? Look up hubris for the answer. Quoted:
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Look at all the arfcom naysaying. Again. https://www.wired.com/story/general-motors-electric-cars-plan-gm/ You guys are constantly insisting that everyone is going to driving IC engine cars for forever, ignoring the fact that there are already numerous governments around the world that plan on banning IC cars by 2030 one way or another this thing is coming soon Look up hubris for the answer. |
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Gonna put this right near the rest of the stack of "battery breakthrough game changer never been dun befo" items and wait until it's actually on the fucking market before getting excited. There are dozens of announcements like this every year, none of them fruition into anything at all. According to /r/futurology on Reddit (or any other left-leaning green energy totalitarian website), all of these awesome new battery technologies are just right around the corner and we'll all be driving electric cars in a few months. 
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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - GAME CHANGER: Toshiba develops EV battery that can go 200 Miles after only 6 minutes of charge (Page 4 of 5)
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