[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Electric vehicle drivers get candid about charging: 'Logistical nightmare' (Page 12 of 12)
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Quoted: Allot of it was WPPS mismanagement pure and simple, Satsup was stupid to begin with, Hanford was needed as the old breeders were being shut down the need was still there as was the nuclear infrastructure needed. WPPS was nothing more then a money transfer and not unlike Enron in creating a fictitious need on the west side of Washington. The transmission lines and other nuclear infrastructure was and is still in place at Hanford. We will see new technology nuclear plants at Hanford, just like they are staring now at Idaho Falls, you have the infrastructure, you have knowledge and public support already in place, on the west side not at all. Out of sight, out of mind. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Three mile island started the death of nuclear power in the USA, Chernobyl and Japan just keep them still born. Three mile isle was the last straw. Building a bunch of Nuke plants in the NW to compete with super cheap hydro was massive waste of funds and made nuke look 'expensive' and soured the idea of it being cost effective. Allot of it was WPPS mismanagement pure and simple, Satsup was stupid to begin with, Hanford was needed as the old breeders were being shut down the need was still there as was the nuclear infrastructure needed. WPPS was nothing more then a money transfer and not unlike Enron in creating a fictitious need on the west side of Washington. The transmission lines and other nuclear infrastructure was and is still in place at Hanford. We will see new technology nuclear plants at Hanford, just like they are staring now at Idaho Falls, you have the infrastructure, you have knowledge and public support already in place, on the west side not at all. Out of sight, out of mind. It happened in CA as well. They built canals, laid rail roads, and still have material in vaults all for plants that did not get built. There are even 500 kV loops that they built the towers and ended up running 230kv on, all wasted because it was being driven by politics not real need. We do a good job of learning from times past 
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Quoted: If off peak pricing ends it would be more expensive to charge but still less expensive than gasoline. For my use the shutdown windows don't affect my leave times. It's not that I don't agree with you that there are issues with EV charging. There certainly are. However, the NW politics has chosen winners and losers. Through "carbon taxes" gas and diesel costs will be driven up by the state of OR & WA period. Its literally the stated goal. what happens when gasoline is $8-10 a gallon? I look at vehicles in 5-10 year windows. If in 10 years the market favors gas then great, but I just don't see it happening. At some point I'd like to not live under the regime of Oregon government but with the federal government pushing the same direction there may not be a big difference. Quoted: Quoted: See it’s starting, what happens when more and more utility companies simply drop peak and off peak? What happens when demand is high your shut down and you need your car in the morning and it’s 20%? If off peak pricing ends it would be more expensive to charge but still less expensive than gasoline. For my use the shutdown windows don't affect my leave times. It's not that I don't agree with you that there are issues with EV charging. There certainly are. However, the NW politics has chosen winners and losers. Through "carbon taxes" gas and diesel costs will be driven up by the state of OR & WA period. Its literally the stated goal. what happens when gasoline is $8-10 a gallon? I look at vehicles in 5-10 year windows. If in 10 years the market favors gas then great, but I just don't see it happening. At some point I'd like to not live under the regime of Oregon government but with the federal government pushing the same direction there may not be a big difference. Our three west coast states are going to slit our throats as well as their own. California, Oregon and Washington having to show off to the other state who is the bigger climate change guru are going to destroy all three states. Newsom does this, so Brown does that, then Inslee is like you ain’t seen anything yet, hold my beer. Right now we have a road job that was started now it’s on hold while the county and the company I work for sue the state. The money was there, contracts signed then Inslee froze the funds and is trying to cancel the job as well as a few others saying we don’t have the money. The road in question is breaking apart and getting worse daily, to the point the point the county paid us to remove the asphalt on them for safety reasons. All three governors will be forced to tax EV’s for road use. They are raiding the kitty now, our roads are in horrible shape and as more and more EV’s hit the roads the less road tax money for roads. I’m betting there will major taxes added to EV’s this November or next legislative session next year, as well as a milage tax. There is no way around it. We have $30 or $35 dollar license tabs, yet I pay over $135.00, the states dig a hole then charge or tax us to fix their created problem. |
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Quoted: It happened in CA as well. They built canals, laid rail roads, and still have material in vaults all for plants that did not get built. There are even 500 kV loops that they built the towers and ended up running 230kv on, all wasted because it was being driven by politics not real need. We do a good job of learning from times past Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Three mile island started the death of nuclear power in the USA, Chernobyl and Japan just keep them still born. Three mile isle was the last straw. Building a bunch of Nuke plants in the NW to compete with super cheap hydro was massive waste of funds and made nuke look 'expensive' and soured the idea of it being cost effective. Allot of it was WPPS mismanagement pure and simple, Satsup was stupid to begin with, Hanford was needed as the old breeders were being shut down the need was still there as was the nuclear infrastructure needed. WPPS was nothing more then a money transfer and not unlike Enron in creating a fictitious need on the west side of Washington. The transmission lines and other nuclear infrastructure was and is still in place at Hanford. We will see new technology nuclear plants at Hanford, just like they are staring now at Idaho Falls, you have the infrastructure, you have knowledge and public support already in place, on the west side not at all. Out of sight, out of mind. It happened in CA as well. They built canals, laid rail roads, and still have material in vaults all for plants that did not get built. There are even 500 kV loops that they built the towers and ended up running 230kv on, all wasted because it was being driven by politics not real need. We do a good job of learning from times past No shit!  ETA, we keep making the same mistakes from the past when those results are right in front of them, how’s it going to work as they try to erase or change the past? |
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Quoted: Our three east coast states are going to slit our throats as well as their own. California, Oregon and Washingtons having to show up the other is going to destroy all three states. Right now we have a road job that was started now it’s on hold while the county and the company I work for sue the state. The money was there, contracts signed then Inslee froze the funds and is trying to cancel the job as well as a few others saying we don’t have the money. The road in question is breaking apart and getting worse daily, to the point the point the county paid us to remove the asphalt on them for safety reasons. All three governors will be forced to tax EV’s for road use. They are raiding the kitty now, our roads are in horrible shape and as more and more EV’s hit the roads the less road tax money for roads. I’m betting there will major taxes added to EV’s this November or next legislative session next year, as well as a milage tax. There is no way around it. We have $30 or $35 dollar license tabs, yet I pay over $135.00, the states dig a hole then charge or tax us to fix their created problem. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: See it’s starting, what happens when more and more utility companies simply drop peak and off peak? What happens when demand is high your shut down and you need your car in the morning and it’s 20%? If off peak pricing ends it would be more expensive to charge but still less expensive than gasoline. For my use the shutdown windows don't affect my leave times. It's not that I don't agree with you that there are issues with EV charging. There certainly are. However, the NW politics has chosen winners and losers. Through "carbon taxes" gas and diesel costs will be driven up by the state of OR & WA period. Its literally the stated goal. what happens when gasoline is $8-10 a gallon? I look at vehicles in 5-10 year windows. If in 10 years the market favors gas then great, but I just don't see it happening. At some point I'd like to not live under the regime of Oregon government but with the federal government pushing the same direction there may not be a big difference. Our three east coast states are going to slit our throats as well as their own. California, Oregon and Washingtons having to show up the other is going to destroy all three states. Right now we have a road job that was started now it’s on hold while the county and the company I work for sue the state. The money was there, contracts signed then Inslee froze the funds and is trying to cancel the job as well as a few others saying we don’t have the money. The road in question is breaking apart and getting worse daily, to the point the point the county paid us to remove the asphalt on them for safety reasons. All three governors will be forced to tax EV’s for road use. They are raiding the kitty now, our roads are in horrible shape and as more and more EV’s hit the roads the less road tax money for roads. I’m betting there will major taxes added to EV’s this November or next legislative session next year, as well as a milage tax. There is no way around it. We have $30 or $35 dollar license tabs, yet I pay over $135.00, the states dig a hole then charge or tax us to fix their created problem. We are actually in a time of a lot of projects. The pandemic took a lot of state powers from committee to a single head, this allowed a lot of things to get done that before could not be done. There was also a shit tone of fed money just up for grabs, like for free, no strings attached. But the heads of these pandemic groups where all appointed and thus all reflect the political will of your leader. Weird times. EV taxes are coming, VMT (vehicle miles traveled) taxes are a wet dream of the left. They want to pass but have stated they dont think it is legal. They might be at the point of not caring, pass it anyways but we will see. When they do pass VMT taxes it will be to all cars though, they want you driving less, not more, and thats double true if you are in an ICE car. |
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Quoted: No shit! ETA, we keep making the same mistakes from the past when those results are right in front of them, how’s it going to work as they try to erase or change the past? If there is any lesson from history it is that promising what can't be delivered will always be more popular then promising the truth. |
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Quoted: We are actually in a time of a lot of projects. The pandemic took a lot of state powers from committee to a single head, this allowed a lot of things to get done that before could not be done. There was also a shit tone of fed money just up for grabs, like for free, no strings attached. But the heads of these pandemic groups where all appointed and thus all reflect the political will of your leader. Weird times. EV taxes are coming, VMT (vehicle miles traveled) taxes are a wet dream of the left. They want to pass but have stated they dont think it is legal. They might be at the point of not caring, pass it anyways but we will see. When they do pass VMT taxes it will be to all cars though, they want you driving less, not more, and thats double true if you are in an ICE car. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: See it’s starting, what happens when more and more utility companies simply drop peak and off peak? What happens when demand is high your shut down and you need your car in the morning and it’s 20%? If off peak pricing ends it would be more expensive to charge but still less expensive than gasoline. For my use the shutdown windows don't affect my leave times. It's not that I don't agree with you that there are issues with EV charging. There certainly are. However, the NW politics has chosen winners and losers. Through "carbon taxes" gas and diesel costs will be driven up by the state of OR & WA period. Its literally the stated goal. what happens when gasoline is $8-10 a gallon? I look at vehicles in 5-10 year windows. If in 10 years the market favors gas then great, but I just don't see it happening. At some point I'd like to not live under the regime of Oregon government but with the federal government pushing the same direction there may not be a big difference. Our three east coast states are going to slit our throats as well as their own. California, Oregon and Washingtons having to show up the other is going to destroy all three states. Right now we have a road job that was started now it’s on hold while the county and the company I work for sue the state. The money was there, contracts signed then Inslee froze the funds and is trying to cancel the job as well as a few others saying we don’t have the money. The road in question is breaking apart and getting worse daily, to the point the point the county paid us to remove the asphalt on them for safety reasons. All three governors will be forced to tax EV’s for road use. They are raiding the kitty now, our roads are in horrible shape and as more and more EV’s hit the roads the less road tax money for roads. I’m betting there will major taxes added to EV’s this November or next legislative session next year, as well as a milage tax. There is no way around it. We have $30 or $35 dollar license tabs, yet I pay over $135.00, the states dig a hole then charge or tax us to fix their created problem. We are actually in a time of a lot of projects. The pandemic took a lot of state powers from committee to a single head, this allowed a lot of things to get done that before could not be done. There was also a shit tone of fed money just up for grabs, like for free, no strings attached. But the heads of these pandemic groups where all appointed and thus all reflect the political will of your leader. Weird times. EV taxes are coming, VMT (vehicle miles traveled) taxes are a wet dream of the left. They want to pass but have stated they dont think it is legal. They might be at the point of not caring, pass it anyways but we will see. When they do pass VMT taxes it will be to all cars though, they want you driving less, not more, and thats double true if you are in an ICE car. The taxes are coming, I think IC will be ignored at first due to double taxation both fuel and milage, unless the drop fuel taxes. We know that won’t happen, but a leftest has never seen a tax they don’t like so after the success of the milage taxes on EV’s, ICs will be next. |
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Quoted: The taxes are coming, I think IC will be ignored at first due to double taxation both fuel and milage, unless the drop fuel taxes. We know that won’t happen, but a leftest has never seen a tax they don’t like so after the success of the milage taxes on EV’s, ICs will be next. In CA we have an EV specific registration tax. As far as double taxation goes, LOL. In CA you have the state fuel tax, sales tax, storage tank tax (they tax it going into the gas stations tanks), cap and trade tax (they tax the future emissions from it) and I am sure there are even more Im just going from memory. |
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Quoted: EVs have plenty of issues but let's keep this based in fact. The vehicle mentioned has a 320 mile range. The vehicle will charge from 20% to 80% charged in 41 minutes. One stop would make this trip easily done. Still slower than a gasoline vehicle but not hours slower, more like an hour slower. I guess it depends on your timetable. For example, I am moving from NY to FL, which is around 18 hours (1162 miles) with quick stops for gas. Divide that in half, because who in their right mind wants to drive for 18 fucking hours in a day, and you get 9 hours and 581 miles per day, assuming that you run the speed limit. If I were in the above-mentioned EV, I would have to make an additional stop for +-45 minutes to charge up to 80%. Now, that works if I can find a charger that is available AND does quick-charging, and find something to do for 45 minutes. I would probably just do a leisurely lunch, or an early dinner, depending on when and where I stopped. So, what happens if there is no restaurant within walking distance to the charger? I have a few choices: Uber to a restaurant, order Doordash or similar, take a nap and eat later, etc. This is now pushing into a 10 hour day on the road simply because of the added complexity that traveling in an EV represents. Now, flip the script to an ICE vehicle. My car gets around 330-350 miles on a tank at freeway speeds. I have to stop once for gas before I get to my hotel, and can combine that with a quick lunch, or get something to-go and eat on the road. 15 minutes easy. If I am towing my motorcycle, it reduces the range of the EV due to the additional weight, which might mean two stops for charging, which then pushes into a 12 hour day on the road. |
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Quoted: I guess it depends on your timetable. For example, I am moving from NY to FL, which is around 18 hours (1162 miles) with quick stops for gas. Divide that in half, because who in their right mind wants to drive for 18 fucking hours in a day, and you get 9 hours and 581 miles per day, assuming that you run the speed limit. If I were in the above-mentioned EV, I would have to make an additional stop for +-45 minutes to charge up to 80%. Now, that works if I can find a charger that is available AND does quick-charging, and find something to do for 45 minutes. I would probably just do a leisurely lunch, or an early dinner, depending on when and where I stopped. So, what happens if there is no restaurant within walking distance to the charger? I have a few choices: Uber to a restaurant, order Doordash or similar, take a nap and eat later, etc. This is now pushing into a 10 hour day on the road simply because of the added complexity that traveling in an EV represents. Now, flip the script to an ICE vehicle. My car gets around 330-350 miles on a tank at freeway speeds. I have to stop once for gas before I get to my hotel, and can combine that with a quick lunch, or get something to-go and eat on the road. 15 minutes easy. If I am towing my motorcycle, it reduces the range of the EV due to the additional weight, which might mean two stops for charging, which then pushes into a 12 hour day on the road. Quoted: Quoted: EVs have plenty of issues but let's keep this based in fact. The vehicle mentioned has a 320 mile range. The vehicle will charge from 20% to 80% charged in 41 minutes. One stop would make this trip easily done. Still slower than a gasoline vehicle but not hours slower, more like an hour slower. I guess it depends on your timetable. For example, I am moving from NY to FL, which is around 18 hours (1162 miles) with quick stops for gas. Divide that in half, because who in their right mind wants to drive for 18 fucking hours in a day, and you get 9 hours and 581 miles per day, assuming that you run the speed limit. If I were in the above-mentioned EV, I would have to make an additional stop for +-45 minutes to charge up to 80%. Now, that works if I can find a charger that is available AND does quick-charging, and find something to do for 45 minutes. I would probably just do a leisurely lunch, or an early dinner, depending on when and where I stopped. So, what happens if there is no restaurant within walking distance to the charger? I have a few choices: Uber to a restaurant, order Doordash or similar, take a nap and eat later, etc. This is now pushing into a 10 hour day on the road simply because of the added complexity that traveling in an EV represents. Now, flip the script to an ICE vehicle. My car gets around 330-350 miles on a tank at freeway speeds. I have to stop once for gas before I get to my hotel, and can combine that with a quick lunch, or get something to-go and eat on the road. 15 minutes easy. If I am towing my motorcycle, it reduces the range of the EV due to the additional weight, which might mean two stops for charging, which then pushes into a 12 hour day on the road. How often do you move states? Once every few years maybe. It’s like those people who drive a lifted truck with 44” tires just in case they might go off-road some time, but then they never do There is no single vehicle that is perfect for every rare scenario you might find yourself in. |
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Quoted: I guess it depends on your timetable. For example, I am moving from NY to FL, which is around 18 hours (1162 miles) with quick stops for gas. Divide that in half, because who in their right mind wants to drive for 18 fucking hours in a day, and you get 9 hours and 581 miles per day, assuming that you run the speed limit. If I were in the above-mentioned EV, I would have to make an additional stop for +-45 minutes to charge up to 80%. Now, that works if I can find a charger that is available AND does quick-charging, and find something to do for 45 minutes. I would probably just do a leisurely lunch, or an early dinner, depending on when and where I stopped. So, what happens if there is no restaurant within walking distance to the charger? I have a few choices: Uber to a restaurant, order Doordash or similar, take a nap and eat later, etc. This is now pushing into a 10 hour day on the road simply because of the added complexity that traveling in an EV represents. Now, flip the script to an ICE vehicle. My car gets around 330-350 miles on a tank at freeway speeds. I have to stop once for gas before I get to my hotel, and can combine that with a quick lunch, or get something to-go and eat on the road. 15 minutes easy. If I am towing my motorcycle, it reduces the range of the EV due to the additional weight, which might mean two stops for charging, which then pushes into a 12 hour day on the road. For a trip like that I'd rent a vehicle like a U-Haul that's more appropriate for the drive. In 2009 I drove a U-Haul truck from Portland, OR to Palmer, AK. On two occasions I had to sleep in the front seat of the uhaul until the gas station opened the next day before I could continue on. Another example. I go hunting 400 miles away once a year or so. That trip will suck with an EV requiring 3 stops and hours of wasted time. however, the other 51 weeks a year I can charge at the house and waste zero time, so it evens out. For me it boils down to cost. An EV is currently cheaper to drive for my use case, so it wins. Yep, I could drive a used economy car or old pickup and possibly save money. After driving with the idiots on the freeway around here the last decade I decided my life was worth more and wanted a new larger vehicle that would hold up in a crash. I've also spent plenty of money repairing old vehicles. |
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Quoted: Do you live anywhere on this list? One of the eligible uses for those funds was infrastructure upgrades, including broadband internet. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vSWGBm5MPMEhKRqNeGN_CsSIQwJ6nfywj4x7rvU1Ux3WOpDL156S-w3k0UJcEglJQ/pubhtml?gid=109503209&single=true Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: The big one is fuel cost over the year. Plenty of people have posted their real world mileage and cost to charge, and it's peanuts compared to filling up with gasoline every week. Yup. Just checked the odometer. Over the last 8.5k miles on my car I've gotten 3.9 miles per kWh. I'm paying $0.14 per kWh. Gas is $3.34/gallon. For the cost of one gallon of gas I can go 93 miles. I also don't pay for oil changes, brake rotors, belts, etc. There is nearly zero MX cost. I got it used as EVs seem to have high depreciation off the lot. I have saved so much on operating costs in the last few years as a daily driver that it is effectively free at this point. The EV is so cheap it has let me keep an extra car, an older beater SUV. It is usually off the insurance outside of the winter. I just call to put it back on insured status if I need it. So when the oppressive regime turns off our coal fired power plants in Utah and we are all huddling in our un climate controlled homes I'll still be good.  So you're enjoying your welfare car that is subsidized by US taxpayers through credits no road use taxes and higher electric rates for everyone else because you're using the grid for something it was never designed to be used for. I hope you don't enjoy high speed internet at your place, because the same argument applies. The government has dumped loads of money into infrastructure upgrades for internet access all over the country. Maybe in your area if you're rural, but unlikely in my area. Nice try though. Do you live anywhere on this list? One of the eligible uses for those funds was infrastructure upgrades, including broadband internet. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vSWGBm5MPMEhKRqNeGN_CsSIQwJ6nfywj4x7rvU1Ux3WOpDL156S-w3k0UJcEglJQ/pubhtml?gid=109503209&single=true Some towns in my County but not mine. |
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Quoted: The problem is that some states, like my current shithole communist state, have banned the sale of all ice vehicles and engines starting 2035. 12 years from now, and there is no plan and no regard for all the people that will need a new vehicle and will not have the ability to charge at home due to lack of garage, lack of close parking, lack of sufficient service in their dwelling, and lack of infrastructure to allow a big chunk of the population to charge those vehicles at the same time, over night, when not being used. Most of the new 'generation' coming on line is solar and wind. While wind will work at night when vehicles need to be charged, if the wind is blowing, solar will not produce at night. So the reality is, a bulk of the new generation capability will not work for charging vehicles at home and never will. I don't mind EVs, what I hate is the tyranical laws passed by govt forcing it down everybody's throat with no plans or money to upgrade infrastructure to make it plausibly possible. The only plausible explanation for this is there is an agenda to eliminate personal transportation for the masses because nobody is stupid enough to think this will work without major money and major time. MA and CA have 12 years to do massive infrastructure upgrades and they aren't even thinking about it. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: But how many of those passenger vehicles owners live in apartments.? I would wager 20% and they are not able to charge at home. . But again the bottom line in this EV nonsense is OUR CURRENT ELECTRICAL SUPPLY CAN NOT SUPPORT MORE ELECTRICAL DEMAND WITHOUT BUILDING 1: NEW ELECTRICAL GENERATION PLANTS AND 2: AN IMPROVED ELECTRICAL DISTRIBUTION SYSTEM. Fix this first then let the FREE MARKET decide who wants EVs. Tons of new generation is coming online, it’s just not coal. It’s not really a concern of will we have enough, the cost of it might be to you though…. For the distribution side the answer is no. No one is going to replace distribution country wide for load that might come. If load starts rising we replace lines, you don’t preemptively do it. The problem is that some states, like my current shithole communist state, have banned the sale of all ice vehicles and engines starting 2035. 12 years from now, and there is no plan and no regard for all the people that will need a new vehicle and will not have the ability to charge at home due to lack of garage, lack of close parking, lack of sufficient service in their dwelling, and lack of infrastructure to allow a big chunk of the population to charge those vehicles at the same time, over night, when not being used. Most of the new 'generation' coming on line is solar and wind. While wind will work at night when vehicles need to be charged, if the wind is blowing, solar will not produce at night. So the reality is, a bulk of the new generation capability will not work for charging vehicles at home and never will. I don't mind EVs, what I hate is the tyranical laws passed by govt forcing it down everybody's throat with no plans or money to upgrade infrastructure to make it plausibly possible. The only plausible explanation for this is there is an agenda to eliminate personal transportation for the masses because nobody is stupid enough to think this will work without major money and major time. MA and CA have 12 years to do massive infrastructure upgrades and they aren't even thinking about it. And in these states and other they're forcing the adoption of green tech via subsidies and laws like net metering that pays the homeowner for power put back on the grid. These schemes are masking the true cost of green tech and making it appear that green tech is much more widely applicable than it is. There's a green nut job on youtube I see occasionally. He lives in NE and swears how great solar is for a homeowner, but the solar application data says otherwise. However, throw in installation credits mandatory net metering at retail levels etc and it looks great. So put this into perspective a guy in New England is getting a better return on his solar installation than I would in Texas, that only happens by cooking the books. Point is these states are distorting the market making green tech look more beneficial than it really is. |
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I feel like it is only a matter of time till Ford gets sold to a China company. |
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Quoted: We get it, your pro EV, you fail to see any negatives even when presented in your face. So everything is working fine then there is a large unforeseen demand your cut off and you don’t find out until you go to leave, little late for the opt out. What about when off peak is eliminated? What about when your simply cut off because of other demands. EV is a not ready for prime time novelty right now, and it’s decades if not more away from being any serious threat against IC. The costs are going to go up and there is no way around it, failure to see this is going around with rose colored glasses. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Like I’ve been saying a good friend of mine works for BPA and was talking about that and he said quite frankly allot of EV users will be pissed off, it those same EV users are increasing demand that has seen steady increases for the last few years. Off Peak. He was the one telling me that many utility companies are going to have one fixed rate since energy prices keep going up and off peak really is a thing of the past. Like I said earlier families are home and doing everything at night that was traditionally done earlier in the day. With both parents working, kids in school and doing other activities the electrical load demand has seen increases from 6:00 pm and not really ever dropping off. The war on gas stoves and natural gas in general is only going to drive up demand for electricity, which we presently are decreasing amounts through the war on coal and natural gas. My BPA friend has talked about programs allowing them (grid operators) to regulate and shut down EV’s and other smart energy users. He was saying that most of todays heat pumps are undersized due to cost cutting, and that those undersized units will have thermostats set to lower or higher temperatures depending on the season forcing them to run harder and longer. New spec house construction is built to code minimums and custom are as well to lower costs will use the bare minimum of required insulation. I’m getting side tracked here but he said many operators are looking forward to the ability to shut down excess unneeded power usage. Right now their only tool is rolling black and brown outs. The EV crowd do not grasp the situation at hand and are only making it worse. It’s going to come down to heat or cool your house, do some laundry or charge your car. But hey what do I know I only have friends in the generation and grid community telling me how it really is, not the unicorn feathers were told by the government and the press. Here is what the local utility is doing. When you receive a rebate on your EV charger, you’re automatically enrolled in the PGE EV Smart Charging Program. It’s easy to earn rewards while doing good for the environment and helping us build a more efficient and resilient grid. So, how does it work? Your charger will automatically shift its charging schedule away from peak times when energy use is high and renewable resources are more scarce. We call these Smart Charging Events. During these events, your charger will pause your vehicle charging. It will start again once the event is over. You can opt out of any event via your charging app. When you participate, you can earn a $25 credit on your bill at the end of a Smart Charging season (October to March and April to September). You’ll be randomly assigned to one of two groups, which have different Smart Charging Event hours. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/76/pge_JPG-2736012.JPG https://images.ctfassets.net/416ywc1laqmd/2D1cSE5rAaeRZ2tD7s5Oqk/aac31525b0a503942b6b86ea1c56b591/TOD_Calendar_Graphic_1600x586.png See it’s starting, what happens when more and more utility companies simply drop peak and off peak? What happens when demand is high your shut down and you need your car in the morning and it’s 20%? It says right on there that you can opt out of a pause. They are simply incentivizing using lower load times by making it cheaper, and the charger can do that automatically if you want it to. We get it, your pro EV, you fail to see any negatives even when presented in your face. So everything is working fine then there is a large unforeseen demand your cut off and you don’t find out until you go to leave, little late for the opt out. What about when off peak is eliminated? What about when your simply cut off because of other demands. EV is a not ready for prime time novelty right now, and it’s decades if not more away from being any serious threat against IC. The costs are going to go up and there is no way around it, failure to see this is going around with rose colored glasses. Don't forget that as a country we're subsidizing the purchase and use of some pretty expensive cars and given enough saturation we'll be subsidizing their use via infrastructure upgrades. Because I guarantee right now EV penetration is clustered in areas that will soon be grid constrained. So people in other parts of the state/country will be subsidizing EV use. |
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Quoted: It's going to change, one way or another. The grid is severely out of date and due for an overhaul. I've said in this thread numerous times that it's situation dependent. If you have an EV in the fleet in a multi vehicle home, what's the big deal? How often does the average person go through a full tank of fuel during their daily commute to work and the grocery store? Similar problem. If you don't get a full charge overnight, it's about the same as leaving with a half tank of gas for the day....and that's an if. There's always trickle charge options, or you know, we just update the grid to accommodate the new load requirements. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Like I’ve been saying a good friend of mine works for BPA and was talking about that and he said quite frankly allot of EV users will be pissed off, it those same EV users are increasing demand that has seen steady increases for the last few years. Off Peak. He was the one telling me that many utility companies are going to have one fixed rate since energy prices keep going up and off peak really is a thing of the past. Like I said earlier families are home and doing everything at night that was traditionally done earlier in the day. With both parents working, kids in school and doing other activities the electrical load demand has seen increases from 6:00 pm and not really ever dropping off. The war on gas stoves and natural gas in general is only going to drive up demand for electricity, which we presently are decreasing amounts through the war on coal and natural gas. My BPA friend has talked about programs allowing them (grid operators) to regulate and shut down EV’s and other smart energy users. He was saying that most of todays heat pumps are undersized due to cost cutting, and that those undersized units will have thermostats set to lower or higher temperatures depending on the season forcing them to run harder and longer. New spec house construction is built to code minimums and custom are as well to lower costs will use the bare minimum of required insulation. I’m getting side tracked here but he said many operators are looking forward to the ability to shut down excess unneeded power usage. Right now their only tool is rolling black and brown outs. The EV crowd do not grasp the situation at hand and are only making it worse. It’s going to come down to heat or cool your house, do some laundry or charge your car. But hey what do I know I only have friends in the generation and grid community telling me how it really is, not the unicorn feathers were told by the government and the press. Here is what the local utility is doing. When you receive a rebate on your EV charger, you’re automatically enrolled in the PGE EV Smart Charging Program. It’s easy to earn rewards while doing good for the environment and helping us build a more efficient and resilient grid. So, how does it work? Your charger will automatically shift its charging schedule away from peak times when energy use is high and renewable resources are more scarce. We call these Smart Charging Events. During these events, your charger will pause your vehicle charging. It will start again once the event is over. You can opt out of any event via your charging app. When you participate, you can earn a $25 credit on your bill at the end of a Smart Charging season (October to March and April to September). You’ll be randomly assigned to one of two groups, which have different Smart Charging Event hours. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/76/pge_JPG-2736012.JPG https://images.ctfassets.net/416ywc1laqmd/2D1cSE5rAaeRZ2tD7s5Oqk/aac31525b0a503942b6b86ea1c56b591/TOD_Calendar_Graphic_1600x586.png See it’s starting, what happens when more and more utility companies simply drop peak and off peak? What happens when demand is high your shut down and you need your car in the morning and it’s 20%? It says right on there that you can opt out of a pause. They are simply incentivizing using lower load times by making it cheaper, and the charger can do that automatically if you want it to. We get it, your pro EV, you fail to see any negatives even when presented in your face. So everything is working fine then there is a large unforeseen demand your cut off and you don’t find out until you go to leave, little late for the opt out. What about when off peak is eliminated? What about when your simply cut off because of other demands. EV is a not ready for prime time novelty right now, and it’s decades if not more away from being any serious threat against IC. The costs are going to go up and there is no way around it, failure to see this is going around with rose colored glasses. It's going to change, one way or another. The grid is severely out of date and due for an overhaul. I've said in this thread numerous times that it's situation dependent. If you have an EV in the fleet in a multi vehicle home, what's the big deal? How often does the average person go through a full tank of fuel during their daily commute to work and the grocery store? Similar problem. If you don't get a full charge overnight, it's about the same as leaving with a half tank of gas for the day....and that's an if. There's always trickle charge options, or you know, we just update the grid to accommodate the new load requirements. You do realize that simple just update the grid is the same thinking of people in DC. We're talking billions if not a trillion dollars to upgrade the grid to handle full fleet replacement. Not to mention it will take years upon years. As someone with 20+ years in the power industry, the basic problem is we have people making decisions with zero knowledge of their implications. You always hear from the less informed......"all you have to do [insert fix]" that's when you know you're talking to someone that has no idea what they're proposing. |
I live in a rural area and am afforded the luxury of having a large garage where I could charge up my EV every night. But let's look at cities. Nobody has a garage. They all park on the street. Where H.E. double hockey sticks are you going to put charging stations? One per car length down thousands of miles of sidewalks? Here's a pic of E. 20th St in Manhattan. Where do the chargers go? |
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Quoted: And in these states and other they're forcing the adoption of green tech via subsidies and laws like net metering that pays the homeowner for power put back on the grid. These schemes are masking the true cost of green tech and making it appear that green tech is much more widely applicable than it is. There's a green nut job on youtube I see occasionally. He lives in NE and swears how great solar is for a homeowner, but the solar application data says otherwise. However, throw in installation credits mandatory net metering at retail levels etc and it looks great. So put this into perspective a guy in New England is getting a better return on his solar installation than I would in Texas, that only happens by cooking the books. Point is these states are distorting the market making green tech look more beneficial than it really is. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: But how many of those passenger vehicles owners live in apartments.? I would wager 20% and they are not able to charge at home. . But again the bottom line in this EV nonsense is OUR CURRENT ELECTRICAL SUPPLY CAN NOT SUPPORT MORE ELECTRICAL DEMAND WITHOUT BUILDING 1: NEW ELECTRICAL GENERATION PLANTS AND 2: AN IMPROVED ELECTRICAL DISTRIBUTION SYSTEM. Fix this first then let the FREE MARKET decide who wants EVs. Tons of new generation is coming online, it’s just not coal. It’s not really a concern of will we have enough, the cost of it might be to you though…. For the distribution side the answer is no. No one is going to replace distribution country wide for load that might come. If load starts rising we replace lines, you don’t preemptively do it. The problem is that some states, like my current shithole communist state, have banned the sale of all ice vehicles and engines starting 2035. 12 years from now, and there is no plan and no regard for all the people that will need a new vehicle and will not have the ability to charge at home due to lack of garage, lack of close parking, lack of sufficient service in their dwelling, and lack of infrastructure to allow a big chunk of the population to charge those vehicles at the same time, over night, when not being used. Most of the new 'generation' coming on line is solar and wind. While wind will work at night when vehicles need to be charged, if the wind is blowing, solar will not produce at night. So the reality is, a bulk of the new generation capability will not work for charging vehicles at home and never will. I don't mind EVs, what I hate is the tyranical laws passed by govt forcing it down everybody's throat with no plans or money to upgrade infrastructure to make it plausibly possible. The only plausible explanation for this is there is an agenda to eliminate personal transportation for the masses because nobody is stupid enough to think this will work without major money and major time. MA and CA have 12 years to do massive infrastructure upgrades and they aren't even thinking about it. And in these states and other they're forcing the adoption of green tech via subsidies and laws like net metering that pays the homeowner for power put back on the grid. These schemes are masking the true cost of green tech and making it appear that green tech is much more widely applicable than it is. There's a green nut job on youtube I see occasionally. He lives in NE and swears how great solar is for a homeowner, but the solar application data says otherwise. However, throw in installation credits mandatory net metering at retail levels etc and it looks great. So put this into perspective a guy in New England is getting a better return on his solar installation than I would in Texas, that only happens by cooking the books. Point is these states are distorting the market making green tech look more beneficial than it really is. Very true, I looked into a solar setup for my house, no money down and it would run me out of pocket just shy of $400.00 a month, and no electrical payments, so I asked how they can do that? I was told flat out that credits and incentives would cover it all and the difference would be made up by selling back back the power I don’t use! The fuck is up with that? They explained that if I use X amount but because of the solar I will less power from the grid and the local PUD has to buy the difference back. What type of book cooking is that? I will get a solar setup that will about a $100K ($98K and change) for almost $400.00 ($385.00) a month and my only out of pocket is $385.00 a month with no power bill for 10 years, guaranteed! Since it was to good to be true I decided not to do it. She did say for the first 4-6 months I won’t pay the $385.00 while they adjust the power billing with the local PUD, and I will pay my normal power bill based on last years use at this years rates. Seems like voodoo magic book work to me? |
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Quoted: Don't forget that as a country we're subsidizing the purchase and use of some pretty expensive cars and given enough saturation we'll be subsidizing their use via infrastructure upgrades. Because I guarantee right now EV penetration is clustered in areas that will soon be grid constrained. So people in other parts of the state/country will be subsidizing EV use. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Like I’ve been saying a good friend of mine works for BPA and was talking about that and he said quite frankly allot of EV users will be pissed off, it those same EV users are increasing demand that has seen steady increases for the last few years. Off Peak. He was the one telling me that many utility companies are going to have one fixed rate since energy prices keep going up and off peak really is a thing of the past. Like I said earlier families are home and doing everything at night that was traditionally done earlier in the day. With both parents working, kids in school and doing other activities the electrical load demand has seen increases from 6:00 pm and not really ever dropping off. The war on gas stoves and natural gas in general is only going to drive up demand for electricity, which we presently are decreasing amounts through the war on coal and natural gas. My BPA friend has talked about programs allowing them (grid operators) to regulate and shut down EV’s and other smart energy users. He was saying that most of todays heat pumps are undersized due to cost cutting, and that those undersized units will have thermostats set to lower or higher temperatures depending on the season forcing them to run harder and longer. New spec house construction is built to code minimums and custom are as well to lower costs will use the bare minimum of required insulation. I’m getting side tracked here but he said many operators are looking forward to the ability to shut down excess unneeded power usage. Right now their only tool is rolling black and brown outs. The EV crowd do not grasp the situation at hand and are only making it worse. It’s going to come down to heat or cool your house, do some laundry or charge your car. But hey what do I know I only have friends in the generation and grid community telling me how it really is, not the unicorn feathers were told by the government and the press. Here is what the local utility is doing. When you receive a rebate on your EV charger, you’re automatically enrolled in the PGE EV Smart Charging Program. It’s easy to earn rewards while doing good for the environment and helping us build a more efficient and resilient grid. So, how does it work? Your charger will automatically shift its charging schedule away from peak times when energy use is high and renewable resources are more scarce. We call these Smart Charging Events. During these events, your charger will pause your vehicle charging. It will start again once the event is over. You can opt out of any event via your charging app. When you participate, you can earn a $25 credit on your bill at the end of a Smart Charging season (October to March and April to September). You’ll be randomly assigned to one of two groups, which have different Smart Charging Event hours. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/76/pge_JPG-2736012.JPG https://images.ctfassets.net/416ywc1laqmd/2D1cSE5rAaeRZ2tD7s5Oqk/aac31525b0a503942b6b86ea1c56b591/TOD_Calendar_Graphic_1600x586.png See it’s starting, what happens when more and more utility companies simply drop peak and off peak? What happens when demand is high your shut down and you need your car in the morning and it’s 20%? It says right on there that you can opt out of a pause. They are simply incentivizing using lower load times by making it cheaper, and the charger can do that automatically if you want it to. We get it, your pro EV, you fail to see any negatives even when presented in your face. So everything is working fine then there is a large unforeseen demand your cut off and you don’t find out until you go to leave, little late for the opt out. What about when off peak is eliminated? What about when your simply cut off because of other demands. EV is a not ready for prime time novelty right now, and it’s decades if not more away from being any serious threat against IC. The costs are going to go up and there is no way around it, failure to see this is going around with rose colored glasses. Don't forget that as a country we're subsidizing the purchase and use of some pretty expensive cars and given enough saturation we'll be subsidizing their use via infrastructure upgrades. Because I guarantee right now EV penetration is clustered in areas that will soon be grid constrained. So people in other parts of the state/country will be subsidizing EV use. Absolutely, they are building a house of cards that will soon collapse when the reality of the issues rear their ugly face. |
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Quoted: You do realize that simple just update the grid is the same thinking of people in DC. We're talking billions if not a trillion dollars to upgrade the grid to handle full fleet replacement. Not to mention it will take years upon years. As someone with 20+ years in the power industry, the basic problem is we have people making decisions with zero knowledge of their implications. You always hear from the less informed......"all you have to do [insert fix]" that's when you know you're talking to someone that has no idea what they're proposing. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Like I’ve been saying a good friend of mine works for BPA and was talking about that and he said quite frankly allot of EV users will be pissed off, it those same EV users are increasing demand that has seen steady increases for the last few years. Off Peak. He was the one telling me that many utility companies are going to have one fixed rate since energy prices keep going up and off peak really is a thing of the past. Like I said earlier families are home and doing everything at night that was traditionally done earlier in the day. With both parents working, kids in school and doing other activities the electrical load demand has seen increases from 6:00 pm and not really ever dropping off. The war on gas stoves and natural gas in general is only going to drive up demand for electricity, which we presently are decreasing amounts through the war on coal and natural gas. My BPA friend has talked about programs allowing them (grid operators) to regulate and shut down EV’s and other smart energy users. He was saying that most of todays heat pumps are undersized due to cost cutting, and that those undersized units will have thermostats set to lower or higher temperatures depending on the season forcing them to run harder and longer. New spec house construction is built to code minimums and custom are as well to lower costs will use the bare minimum of required insulation. I’m getting side tracked here but he said many operators are looking forward to the ability to shut down excess unneeded power usage. Right now their only tool is rolling black and brown outs. The EV crowd do not grasp the situation at hand and are only making it worse. It’s going to come down to heat or cool your house, do some laundry or charge your car. But hey what do I know I only have friends in the generation and grid community telling me how it really is, not the unicorn feathers were told by the government and the press. Here is what the local utility is doing. When you receive a rebate on your EV charger, you’re automatically enrolled in the PGE EV Smart Charging Program. It’s easy to earn rewards while doing good for the environment and helping us build a more efficient and resilient grid. So, how does it work? Your charger will automatically shift its charging schedule away from peak times when energy use is high and renewable resources are more scarce. We call these Smart Charging Events. During these events, your charger will pause your vehicle charging. It will start again once the event is over. You can opt out of any event via your charging app. When you participate, you can earn a $25 credit on your bill at the end of a Smart Charging season (October to March and April to September). You’ll be randomly assigned to one of two groups, which have different Smart Charging Event hours. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/76/pge_JPG-2736012.JPG https://images.ctfassets.net/416ywc1laqmd/2D1cSE5rAaeRZ2tD7s5Oqk/aac31525b0a503942b6b86ea1c56b591/TOD_Calendar_Graphic_1600x586.png See it’s starting, what happens when more and more utility companies simply drop peak and off peak? What happens when demand is high your shut down and you need your car in the morning and it’s 20%? It says right on there that you can opt out of a pause. They are simply incentivizing using lower load times by making it cheaper, and the charger can do that automatically if you want it to. We get it, your pro EV, you fail to see any negatives even when presented in your face. So everything is working fine then there is a large unforeseen demand your cut off and you don’t find out until you go to leave, little late for the opt out. What about when off peak is eliminated? What about when your simply cut off because of other demands. EV is a not ready for prime time novelty right now, and it’s decades if not more away from being any serious threat against IC. The costs are going to go up and there is no way around it, failure to see this is going around with rose colored glasses. It's going to change, one way or another. The grid is severely out of date and due for an overhaul. I've said in this thread numerous times that it's situation dependent. If you have an EV in the fleet in a multi vehicle home, what's the big deal? How often does the average person go through a full tank of fuel during their daily commute to work and the grocery store? Similar problem. If you don't get a full charge overnight, it's about the same as leaving with a half tank of gas for the day....and that's an if. There's always trickle charge options, or you know, we just update the grid to accommodate the new load requirements. You do realize that simple just update the grid is the same thinking of people in DC. We're talking billions if not a trillion dollars to upgrade the grid to handle full fleet replacement. Not to mention it will take years upon years. As someone with 20+ years in the power industry, the basic problem is we have people making decisions with zero knowledge of their implications. You always hear from the less informed......"all you have to do [insert fix]" that's when you know you're talking to someone that has no idea what they're proposing. Doesn't it need to happen regardless? Put a plan in place, allocate the funding, and start building. |
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Quoted: Do you live anywhere on this list? One of the eligible uses for those funds was infrastructure upgrades, including broadband internet. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vSWGBm5MPMEhKRqNeGN_CsSIQwJ6nfywj4x7rvU1Ux3WOpDL156S-w3k0UJcEglJQ/pubhtml?gid=109503209&single=true That money vanishes into someones pocket. Nothing ever happens in rural areas with regards to high speed internet here. Hell, Musk raised my Starlink because there's too much rural demand. And he cut prices in areas where he has to compete. |
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Quoted: I live in a rural area and am afforded the luxury of having a large garage where I could charge up my EV every night. But let's look at cities. Nobody has a garage. They all park on the street. Where H.E. double hockey sticks are you going to put charging stations? One per car length down thousands of miles of sidewalks? Here's a pic of E. 20th St in Manhattan. Where do the chargers go? https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/143025/20th_st-2736292.jpg  |
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Quoted: They charge them back in their houses on NJ or Long Island because most people in NYC don't own a damn car lol. https://edc.nyc/sites/default/files/filemanager/CarOwnership.jpg (https://carsearchinc.com/how-many-cars-in-manhattan/) I'll ask again, where do you put the chargers? I'm not anti-EV. I sincerely want to hear some thoughts on this conundrum. |
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Quoted: That money vanishes into someones pocket. Nothing ever happens in rural areas with regards to high speed internet here. Hell, Musk raised my Starlink because there's too much rural demand. And he cut prices in areas where he has to compete. Quoted: Quoted: Do you live anywhere on this list? One of the eligible uses for those funds was infrastructure upgrades, including broadband internet. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vSWGBm5MPMEhKRqNeGN_CsSIQwJ6nfywj4x7rvU1Ux3WOpDL156S-w3k0UJcEglJQ/pubhtml?gid=109503209&single=true That money vanishes into someones pocket. Nothing ever happens in rural areas with regards to high speed internet here. Hell, Musk raised my Starlink because there's too much rural demand. And he cut prices in areas where he has to compete. They did full build outs here. Over the course of about two years fiber was run up most county roads. Our town road still runs copper into fiber, but overnight the speed went up about 10x once the builds were complete. I anticipate they'll eventually go back through and run fiber up rest of the roads. We can't stream in 4k or anything, but the internet at least functions like it's supposed to and you can have multiple users. |
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Quoted: Doesn't it need to happen regardless? Put a plan in place, allocate the funding, and start building. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Like I’ve been saying a good friend of mine works for BPA and was talking about that and he said quite frankly allot of EV users will be pissed off, it those same EV users are increasing demand that has seen steady increases for the last few years. Off Peak. He was the one telling me that many utility companies are going to have one fixed rate since energy prices keep going up and off peak really is a thing of the past. Like I said earlier families are home and doing everything at night that was traditionally done earlier in the day. With both parents working, kids in school and doing other activities the electrical load demand has seen increases from 6:00 pm and not really ever dropping off. The war on gas stoves and natural gas in general is only going to drive up demand for electricity, which we presently are decreasing amounts through the war on coal and natural gas. My BPA friend has talked about programs allowing them (grid operators) to regulate and shut down EV’s and other smart energy users. He was saying that most of todays heat pumps are undersized due to cost cutting, and that those undersized units will have thermostats set to lower or higher temperatures depending on the season forcing them to run harder and longer. New spec house construction is built to code minimums and custom are as well to lower costs will use the bare minimum of required insulation. I’m getting side tracked here but he said many operators are looking forward to the ability to shut down excess unneeded power usage. Right now their only tool is rolling black and brown outs. The EV crowd do not grasp the situation at hand and are only making it worse. It’s going to come down to heat or cool your house, do some laundry or charge your car. But hey what do I know I only have friends in the generation and grid community telling me how it really is, not the unicorn feathers were told by the government and the press. Here is what the local utility is doing. When you receive a rebate on your EV charger, you’re automatically enrolled in the PGE EV Smart Charging Program. It’s easy to earn rewards while doing good for the environment and helping us build a more efficient and resilient grid. So, how does it work? Your charger will automatically shift its charging schedule away from peak times when energy use is high and renewable resources are more scarce. We call these Smart Charging Events. During these events, your charger will pause your vehicle charging. It will start again once the event is over. You can opt out of any event via your charging app. When you participate, you can earn a $25 credit on your bill at the end of a Smart Charging season (October to March and April to September). You’ll be randomly assigned to one of two groups, which have different Smart Charging Event hours. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/76/pge_JPG-2736012.JPG https://images.ctfassets.net/416ywc1laqmd/2D1cSE5rAaeRZ2tD7s5Oqk/aac31525b0a503942b6b86ea1c56b591/TOD_Calendar_Graphic_1600x586.png See it’s starting, what happens when more and more utility companies simply drop peak and off peak? What happens when demand is high your shut down and you need your car in the morning and it’s 20%? It says right on there that you can opt out of a pause. They are simply incentivizing using lower load times by making it cheaper, and the charger can do that automatically if you want it to. We get it, your pro EV, you fail to see any negatives even when presented in your face. So everything is working fine then there is a large unforeseen demand your cut off and you don’t find out until you go to leave, little late for the opt out. What about when off peak is eliminated? What about when your simply cut off because of other demands. EV is a not ready for prime time novelty right now, and it’s decades if not more away from being any serious threat against IC. The costs are going to go up and there is no way around it, failure to see this is going around with rose colored glasses. It's going to change, one way or another. The grid is severely out of date and due for an overhaul. I've said in this thread numerous times that it's situation dependent. If you have an EV in the fleet in a multi vehicle home, what's the big deal? How often does the average person go through a full tank of fuel during their daily commute to work and the grocery store? Similar problem. If you don't get a full charge overnight, it's about the same as leaving with a half tank of gas for the day....and that's an if. There's always trickle charge options, or you know, we just update the grid to accommodate the new load requirements. You do realize that simple just update the grid is the same thinking of people in DC. We're talking billions if not a trillion dollars to upgrade the grid to handle full fleet replacement. Not to mention it will take years upon years. As someone with 20+ years in the power industry, the basic problem is we have people making decisions with zero knowledge of their implications. You always hear from the less informed......"all you have to do [insert fix]" that's when you know you're talking to someone that has no idea what they're proposing. Doesn't it need to happen regardless? Put a plan in place, allocate the funding, and start building. You really have no clue how all that works do you? The grid or its limitations have been known since the late 70’s. The best that can happen or has happened is increasing line sizes where possible. Extensions have happened, the amount of money required to fix this will never appear, but let’s say the money is allocated, now comes the permit process, that in itself can take between 5 and 10:years for smaller lines, main transmission lines will take longer if they can even get them. What would cost a 100 billion today will cost a trillion by time work is ready to begin, so if it had a price tag of a trillion which is a number kicked around allot by those who know, will cost 3 or 4 trillion by time construction begins. There will be court delays, numerous EIS’s required, materials must be custom made and ordered years ahead of intended use, and let me tell you utility companies will not waste time and money on getting materials until money and permits to start are in hand, to many projects have ended badly in court to spend that money for custom parts they can’t use or sell. The dam by where I live had their license come up for renewal, they spent 15 years and close to 100 million for a new 50 year operating license from FERC, every agency federal, state, county, tribal and private are involved with half trying to kill it. The concessions they made for it were insane, most of them stupid, no more docks on the water, existing docks were sort of grandfathered, since the dam has a 10’ adjustable pool level existing docks need 12’ under their lowest point so if the water is down 10’ there is the now required 2’ between the bottom and the lowest point, it’s so fish don’t get squashed when the water goes down, old docks need to be grated to allow sunlight to pass thru so predictors can’t hide in the shadows. I was at that meeting and this fish biologist with a PHD was asked “what if the smolt hid from the predators in the shadows?” His reply thy don’t? WTF?? This is the insanity of these people. There was a erosion problem from a back eddy on our property, it was so bad when the water was up Marine Fisheries wanted to limit the operating level to 5’ the PUD (the dams owner) proposed sloping using round rock and natural vegetation to hold it, they approved it to stop the clouding and preserve the fish habitat, well another agency opposed it due to the rock not being natural, it took 5 years from approval to actually doing the work due to all the agencies involved with half in favor and the other half against. Yea, a new power grid isn't going to happen in our life times. |
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Quoted: They did full build outs here. Over the course of about two years fiber was run up most county roads. Our town road still runs copper into fiber, but overnight the speed went up about 10x once the builds were complete. I anticipate they'll eventually go back through and run fiber up rest of the roads. We can't stream in 4k or anything, but the internet at least functions like it's supposed to and you can have multiple users. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Do you live anywhere on this list? One of the eligible uses for those funds was infrastructure upgrades, including broadband internet. https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/e/2PACX-1vSWGBm5MPMEhKRqNeGN_CsSIQwJ6nfywj4x7rvU1Ux3WOpDL156S-w3k0UJcEglJQ/pubhtml?gid=109503209&single=true That money vanishes into someones pocket. Nothing ever happens in rural areas with regards to high speed internet here. Hell, Musk raised my Starlink because there's too much rural demand. And he cut prices in areas where he has to compete. They did full build outs here. Over the course of about two years fiber was run up most county roads. Our town road still runs copper into fiber, but overnight the speed went up about 10x once the builds were complete. I anticipate they'll eventually go back through and run fiber up rest of the roads. We can't stream in 4k or anything, but the internet at least functions like it's supposed to and you can have multiple users. Ever wonder why all this rural internet is happening? There are other options, but think about all this government money for fiber and wireless. |
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Quoted: The NYC Dept of Transportation says there are over 1 million cars in Manhattan. For the benefit of the doubt, let's limit this to residents in order to filter out the NJ commuters. If there are ~1.6M people in Manhattan and 31% of them own cars, that's 496,000 cars. Of course, the commuters will want to be charging their cars as well. (https://carsearchinc.com/how-many-cars-in-manhattan/) I'll ask again, where do you put the chargers? I'm not anti-EV. I sincerely want to hear some thoughts on this conundrum. Quoted: Quoted: They charge them back in their houses on NJ or Long Island because most people in NYC don't own a damn car lol. https://edc.nyc/sites/default/files/filemanager/CarOwnership.jpg (https://carsearchinc.com/how-many-cars-in-manhattan/) I'll ask again, where do you put the chargers? I'm not anti-EV. I sincerely want to hear some thoughts on this conundrum. |
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Quoted: Doesn't it need to happen regardless? Put a plan in place, allocate the funding, and start building. Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Like I’ve been saying a good friend of mine works for BPA and was talking about that and he said quite frankly allot of EV users will be pissed off, it those same EV users are increasing demand that has seen steady increases for the last few years. Off Peak. He was the one telling me that many utility companies are going to have one fixed rate since energy prices keep going up and off peak really is a thing of the past. Like I said earlier families are home and doing everything at night that was traditionally done earlier in the day. With both parents working, kids in school and doing other activities the electrical load demand has seen increases from 6:00 pm and not really ever dropping off. The war on gas stoves and natural gas in general is only going to drive up demand for electricity, which we presently are decreasing amounts through the war on coal and natural gas. My BPA friend has talked about programs allowing them (grid operators) to regulate and shut down EV’s and other smart energy users. He was saying that most of todays heat pumps are undersized due to cost cutting, and that those undersized units will have thermostats set to lower or higher temperatures depending on the season forcing them to run harder and longer. New spec house construction is built to code minimums and custom are as well to lower costs will use the bare minimum of required insulation. I’m getting side tracked here but he said many operators are looking forward to the ability to shut down excess unneeded power usage. Right now their only tool is rolling black and brown outs. The EV crowd do not grasp the situation at hand and are only making it worse. It’s going to come down to heat or cool your house, do some laundry or charge your car. But hey what do I know I only have friends in the generation and grid community telling me how it really is, not the unicorn feathers were told by the government and the press. Here is what the local utility is doing. When you receive a rebate on your EV charger, you’re automatically enrolled in the PGE EV Smart Charging Program. It’s easy to earn rewards while doing good for the environment and helping us build a more efficient and resilient grid. So, how does it work? Your charger will automatically shift its charging schedule away from peak times when energy use is high and renewable resources are more scarce. We call these Smart Charging Events. During these events, your charger will pause your vehicle charging. It will start again once the event is over. You can opt out of any event via your charging app. When you participate, you can earn a $25 credit on your bill at the end of a Smart Charging season (October to March and April to September). You’ll be randomly assigned to one of two groups, which have different Smart Charging Event hours. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/76/pge_JPG-2736012.JPG https://images.ctfassets.net/416ywc1laqmd/2D1cSE5rAaeRZ2tD7s5Oqk/aac31525b0a503942b6b86ea1c56b591/TOD_Calendar_Graphic_1600x586.png See it’s starting, what happens when more and more utility companies simply drop peak and off peak? What happens when demand is high your shut down and you need your car in the morning and it’s 20%? It says right on there that you can opt out of a pause. They are simply incentivizing using lower load times by making it cheaper, and the charger can do that automatically if you want it to. We get it, your pro EV, you fail to see any negatives even when presented in your face. So everything is working fine then there is a large unforeseen demand your cut off and you don’t find out until you go to leave, little late for the opt out. What about when off peak is eliminated? What about when your simply cut off because of other demands. EV is a not ready for prime time novelty right now, and it’s decades if not more away from being any serious threat against IC. The costs are going to go up and there is no way around it, failure to see this is going around with rose colored glasses. It's going to change, one way or another. The grid is severely out of date and due for an overhaul. I've said in this thread numerous times that it's situation dependent. If you have an EV in the fleet in a multi vehicle home, what's the big deal? How often does the average person go through a full tank of fuel during their daily commute to work and the grocery store? Similar problem. If you don't get a full charge overnight, it's about the same as leaving with a half tank of gas for the day....and that's an if. There's always trickle charge options, or you know, we just update the grid to accommodate the new load requirements. You do realize that simple just update the grid is the same thinking of people in DC. We're talking billions if not a trillion dollars to upgrade the grid to handle full fleet replacement. Not to mention it will take years upon years. As someone with 20+ years in the power industry, the basic problem is we have people making decisions with zero knowledge of their implications. You always hear from the less informed......"all you have to do [insert fix]" that's when you know you're talking to someone that has no idea what they're proposing. Doesn't it need to happen regardless? Put a plan in place, allocate the funding, and start building. Not necessarily and not necessarily in the areas where the demand will be artificially concentrated. If it wasn't for the subsidies it could be done organically over time as areas built out and equipment needed to be changed out, now we're talking about doing in a forced rushed manner which is creating shortages in an industry already crushed by long delays. When the utility in my area was moving to digital protection instead of Electro mechanical they did it as the relays failed or as equipment needed to be upgraded. It took years but it wasn't a huge hit to the company the shareholders or the users, same with upgrading transformers. With the path we're on we won't have that luxury and it's going to cost more than it should. And all that assumes EV's are the solution, even as recently as a year or two ago toyota wasn't convinced until they got beat down and acquiesced |
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Quoted: The NYC Dept of Transportation says there are over 1 million cars in Manhattan. For the benefit of the doubt, let's limit this to residents in order to filter out the NJ commuters. If there are ~1.6M people in Manhattan and 31% of them own cars, that's 496,000 cars. Of course, the commuters will want to be charging their cars as well. (https://carsearchinc.com/how-many-cars-in-manhattan/) I'll ask again, where do you put the chargers? I'm not anti-EV. I sincerely want to hear some thoughts on this conundrum. Quoted: Quoted: They charge them back in their houses on NJ or Long Island because most people in NYC don't own a damn car lol. https://edc.nyc/sites/default/files/filemanager/CarOwnership.jpg (https://carsearchinc.com/how-many-cars-in-manhattan/) I'll ask again, where do you put the chargers? I'm not anti-EV. I sincerely want to hear some thoughts on this conundrum. And Manhattan has an issues that much of their distribution is LV or was a few years back, that will be a cluster fuck of epic proportions |
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Quoted: Does everyone fill up their car at the same time at the gas station? No. Good grief. There's already significantly more public chargers around NYC area then there are gas stations. And that doesn't include any private charging in garages that are available. No way in hell is this enough chargers considering how long it takes to charge a battery. Where do you put em? The image I posted is representative of major cities everywhere. The charger infrastructure is, IMO, a nearly insurmountable problem for cities. |
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Quoted: Not necessarily and not necessarily in the areas where the demand will be artificially concentrated. If it wasn't for the subsidies it could be done organically over time as areas built out and equipment needed to be changed out, now we're talking about doing in a forced rushed manner which is creating shortages in an industry already crushed by long delays. When the utility in my area was moving to digital protection instead of Electro mechanical they did it as the relays failed or as equipment needed to be upgraded. It took years but it wasn't a huge hit to the company the shareholders or the users, same with upgrading transformers. With the path we're on we won't have that luxury and it's going to cost more than it should. And all that assumes EV's are the solution, even as recently as a year or two ago toyota wasn't convinced until they got beat down and acquiesced Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Like I’ve been saying a good friend of mine works for BPA and was talking about that and he said quite frankly allot of EV users will be pissed off, it those same EV users are increasing demand that has seen steady increases for the last few years. Off Peak. He was the one telling me that many utility companies are going to have one fixed rate since energy prices keep going up and off peak really is a thing of the past. Like I said earlier families are home and doing everything at night that was traditionally done earlier in the day. With both parents working, kids in school and doing other activities the electrical load demand has seen increases from 6:00 pm and not really ever dropping off. The war on gas stoves and natural gas in general is only going to drive up demand for electricity, which we presently are decreasing amounts through the war on coal and natural gas. My BPA friend has talked about programs allowing them (grid operators) to regulate and shut down EV’s and other smart energy users. He was saying that most of todays heat pumps are undersized due to cost cutting, and that those undersized units will have thermostats set to lower or higher temperatures depending on the season forcing them to run harder and longer. New spec house construction is built to code minimums and custom are as well to lower costs will use the bare minimum of required insulation. I’m getting side tracked here but he said many operators are looking forward to the ability to shut down excess unneeded power usage. Right now their only tool is rolling black and brown outs. The EV crowd do not grasp the situation at hand and are only making it worse. It’s going to come down to heat or cool your house, do some laundry or charge your car. But hey what do I know I only have friends in the generation and grid community telling me how it really is, not the unicorn feathers were told by the government and the press. Here is what the local utility is doing. When you receive a rebate on your EV charger, you’re automatically enrolled in the PGE EV Smart Charging Program. It’s easy to earn rewards while doing good for the environment and helping us build a more efficient and resilient grid. So, how does it work? Your charger will automatically shift its charging schedule away from peak times when energy use is high and renewable resources are more scarce. We call these Smart Charging Events. During these events, your charger will pause your vehicle charging. It will start again once the event is over. You can opt out of any event via your charging app. When you participate, you can earn a $25 credit on your bill at the end of a Smart Charging season (October to March and April to September). You’ll be randomly assigned to one of two groups, which have different Smart Charging Event hours. https://www.ar15.com/media/mediaFiles/76/pge_JPG-2736012.JPG https://images.ctfassets.net/416ywc1laqmd/2D1cSE5rAaeRZ2tD7s5Oqk/aac31525b0a503942b6b86ea1c56b591/TOD_Calendar_Graphic_1600x586.png See it’s starting, what happens when more and more utility companies simply drop peak and off peak? What happens when demand is high your shut down and you need your car in the morning and it’s 20%? It says right on there that you can opt out of a pause. They are simply incentivizing using lower load times by making it cheaper, and the charger can do that automatically if you want it to. We get it, your pro EV, you fail to see any negatives even when presented in your face. So everything is working fine then there is a large unforeseen demand your cut off and you don’t find out until you go to leave, little late for the opt out. What about when off peak is eliminated? What about when your simply cut off because of other demands. EV is a not ready for prime time novelty right now, and it’s decades if not more away from being any serious threat against IC. The costs are going to go up and there is no way around it, failure to see this is going around with rose colored glasses. It's going to change, one way or another. The grid is severely out of date and due for an overhaul. I've said in this thread numerous times that it's situation dependent. If you have an EV in the fleet in a multi vehicle home, what's the big deal? How often does the average person go through a full tank of fuel during their daily commute to work and the grocery store? Similar problem. If you don't get a full charge overnight, it's about the same as leaving with a half tank of gas for the day....and that's an if. There's always trickle charge options, or you know, we just update the grid to accommodate the new load requirements. You do realize that simple just update the grid is the same thinking of people in DC. We're talking billions if not a trillion dollars to upgrade the grid to handle full fleet replacement. Not to mention it will take years upon years. As someone with 20+ years in the power industry, the basic problem is we have people making decisions with zero knowledge of their implications. You always hear from the less informed......"all you have to do [insert fix]" that's when you know you're talking to someone that has no idea what they're proposing. Doesn't it need to happen regardless? Put a plan in place, allocate the funding, and start building. Not necessarily and not necessarily in the areas where the demand will be artificially concentrated. If it wasn't for the subsidies it could be done organically over time as areas built out and equipment needed to be changed out, now we're talking about doing in a forced rushed manner which is creating shortages in an industry already crushed by long delays. When the utility in my area was moving to digital protection instead of Electro mechanical they did it as the relays failed or as equipment needed to be upgraded. It took years but it wasn't a huge hit to the company the shareholders or the users, same with upgrading transformers. With the path we're on we won't have that luxury and it's going to cost more than it should. And all that assumes EV's are the solution, even as recently as a year or two ago toyota wasn't convinced until they got beat down and acquiesced What allot of people also fail to understand that while this build out is happening allot of the smaller older lines are still in place so even while upgrades are being made as well as increasing sizes of transformers the increase in demand is going to cause problems from the point of power production to once it’s delivered to the actual utility buying the electricity. Right now here in Washington State we can produce more electricity then can be delivered. The dams have been upgraded to more efficient generators which produce more, then what was originally installed. The power can get from the dams to the central switch yard, but there is not enough capacity to move it from there. One of the local utilities here who own two dams and the other with three are doing their own private infrastructure upgrades by installing more lines on new poles within their existing right of ways, then pulling the smaller wire out of the existing lines and replacing with larger lines. They are also building a joint switch yard along with new and expanded substations. They can do this due to owning their own dams and passing the costs off to buyers out of area, and not taking profits for a few years. The dam by me made over a $100 million last year after expenses! The issue is and always has been the federal distribution network. |
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Quoted: 100 years ago there wasn't a gas station on every corner either. This shit takes time and will be a little messy for a while, its still no reason to hate EVs. Yeah, but the government wasn't banning or regulating horses and pushing ICE vehicles for transportation with a shit ton of manufacturing subsidies. |
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Quoted: Yeah, but the government wasn't banning or regulating horses and pushing ICE vehicles for transportation with a shit ton of manufacturing subsidies. Quoted: Quoted: 100 years ago there wasn't a gas station on every corner either. This shit takes time and will be a little messy for a while, its still no reason to hate EVs. Yeah, but the government wasn't banning or regulating horses and pushing ICE vehicles for transportation with a shit ton of manufacturing subsidies. Interestingly they were pushing for a solution to “pollution” from horse manure. https://www.historic-uk.com/HistoryUK/HistoryofBritain/Great-Horse-Manure-Crisis-of-1894/ The more things change the more they remain the same. |
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When was the last time the democrats wanted something that was actually good for the people rather than their own self-interests? The democrats won't take a hard piss unless they know it's going to help increase their power and control. It's simply who and what they are, and they couldn't change if they wanted to. And they don't want to. The democrats are absolutely foaming at the rabid mouth with a burning obsession in trying to force battery powered cars on everyone. That, alone, should give anyone with even a half of a brain in their skull at least a moment's pause. They want to force everyone into fancy golf carts because it benefits them in some way. If it didn't, we would not be hearing a peep from them on the subject. They don't focus on anything that doesn't help them consolidate their power. Ever. And they sure are mightily focused on those battery powered cars. I don't hate battery powered cars, or even dislike them. I think it's going to be a while before they are more than novelties, though. And novelties should not be forced on people against their will. Just like medical procedures. Or anything else, for that matter. If some people want them, it's like deciding to be vegan. Let them be one, but don't then force everyone else to become one just because some people find the lifestyle works for them. It won't work for everyone. One size never fits all, although democrats will try to force it on everyone, anyway. |
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@mstennes Just got through talking to a friend that's installing my 240v EV charger. He said last year he was putting chargers in a cul-de-sac area of 12 homes on one utility feed. Houses built in the 1950's He said all had 100amp panels that had been maxed by electric heat conversions among other upgrades. He said over a 2 year period he did Panel upgrades and EV chargers on 4 homes. On the fifth the Utility got involved and wouldn't allow any more upgrades because they couldn't supply any more power through the feed line. He was told the line was direct buried and the utility didn't see the upgrades needed as being cost effective. |
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Quoted: @mstennes Just got through talking to a friend that's installing my 240v EV charger. He said last year he was putting chargers in a cul-de-sac area of 12 homes on one utility feed. Houses built in the 1950's He said all had 100amp panels that had been maxed by electric heat conversions among other upgrades. He said over a 2 year period he did Panel upgrades and EV chargers on 4 homes. On the fifth the Utility got involved and wouldn't allow any more upgrades because they couldn't supply any more power through the feed line. He was told the line was direct buried and the utility didn't see the upgrades needed as being cost effective. @OregonShooter That’s what I am saying and so are a few other members, there simply is not the infrastructure in place. It’s not just at the local utility company either, this starts at the production point, even over heads are more often then not at maximum capacity. The only way cost wise is install larger feed lines on overheads, which can be done as has been, but even that is a band aid as you can only go so large without replacing poles and supports. Main lines tend to have enough easement to increase pole size allowing larger lines, feeder lines are pretty limited and underground is going to be like your friend said very expensive for zero return. Underground would require removal of old conduit and larger installed to handle larger lines. We have done that in a development we did last year. Very expensive but you at least pass the costs on to new buyers. Doing a already built sub is 100% on the utility. Now think about how many houses are maxed out and need new services, or simply can not do it because of what you just said. EV’s are going to loose their luster very quick. |
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Quoted: All of Manhattans Distribution is 13kv. Quoted: Quoted: And Manhattan has an issues that much of their distribution is LV or was a few years back, that will be a cluster fuck of epic proportions All of Manhattans Distribution is 13kv. Gonna need some clarification because when my old company was selling gear we couldn't sell MV equipment for any installation. It all had to LV, fault currents were stupid high as well. It was the reason the company had designed LV 10,000 amp bus. |
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Quoted: @OregonShooter That’s what I am saying and so are a few other members, there simply is not the infrastructure in place. It’s not just at the local utility company either, this starts at the production point, even over heads are more often then not at maximum capacity. The only way cost wise is install larger feed lines on overheads, which can be done as has been, but even that is a band aid as you can only go so large without replacing poles and supports. Main lines tend to have enough easement to increase pole size allowing larger lines, feeder lines are pretty limited and underground is going to be like your friend said very expensive for zero return. Underground would require removal of old conduit and larger installed to handle larger lines. We have done that in a development we did last year. Very expensive but you at least pass the costs on to new buyers. Doing a already built sub is 100% on the utility. Now think about how many houses are maxed out and need new services, or simply can not do it because of what you just said. EV’s are going to loose their luster very quick. Quoted: Quoted: @mstennes Just got through talking to a friend that's installing my 240v EV charger. He said last year he was putting chargers in a cul-de-sac area of 12 homes on one utility feed. Houses built in the 1950's He said all had 100amp panels that had been maxed by electric heat conversions among other upgrades. He said over a 2 year period he did Panel upgrades and EV chargers on 4 homes. On the fifth the Utility got involved and wouldn't allow any more upgrades because they couldn't supply any more power through the feed line. He was told the line was direct buried and the utility didn't see the upgrades needed as being cost effective. @OregonShooter That’s what I am saying and so are a few other members, there simply is not the infrastructure in place. It’s not just at the local utility company either, this starts at the production point, even over heads are more often then not at maximum capacity. The only way cost wise is install larger feed lines on overheads, which can be done as has been, but even that is a band aid as you can only go so large without replacing poles and supports. Main lines tend to have enough easement to increase pole size allowing larger lines, feeder lines are pretty limited and underground is going to be like your friend said very expensive for zero return. Underground would require removal of old conduit and larger installed to handle larger lines. We have done that in a development we did last year. Very expensive but you at least pass the costs on to new buyers. Doing a already built sub is 100% on the utility. Now think about how many houses are maxed out and need new services, or simply can not do it because of what you just said. EV’s are going to loose their luster very quick. This is where things get really interesting and if you're in the industry you see how the numbers are being cooked. Right now there are systems ready for installation that will allow more capacity for existing lines rough numbers are 15 to maybe 25% on the high end. However those system will at best help to accommodate normal growth and relieve constraint issues that exist today. But the talking heads are saying"all you gotta do " is increase your efficiency and we'll have room for all the electrification we're mandating. Problem is those mandate assume zero organic growth and ignore constraint issues that currently exist. One such system https://www.linevisioninc.com/....there are many though. |
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Quoted: 100 years ago there wasn't a gas station on every corner either. This shit takes time and will be a little messy for a while, its still no reason to hate EVs. 100 years ago you solved that problem by carrying extra gas with you on long trips. Maybe EV drivers should consider carrying extra electricity. |
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Quoted: 100 years ago you solved that problem by carrying extra gas with you on long trips. Maybe EV drivers should consider carrying extra electricity. Quoted: Quoted: 100 years ago there wasn't a gas station on every corner either. This shit takes time and will be a little messy for a while, its still no reason to hate EVs. 100 years ago you solved that problem by carrying extra gas with you on long trips. Maybe EV drivers should consider carrying extra electricity. Pretty sure there are more electrical sockets out there than gas stations.
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Quoted: I don't hate battery powered cars, or even dislike them. I think it's going to be a while before they are more than novelties, though. And novelties should not be forced on people against their will. I had to remind him that not everyone is an upper middle class business owner who works from home and owns three cars - and that all of that might be coloring his opinion on the practicality of EVs. Letting people buy them if they want them, is one thing. Forcing them on people, which is exactly where we’re going with is, is something different entirely. |
[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Electric vehicle drivers get candid about charging: 'Logistical nightmare' (Page 12 of 12)
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