Change you can believe in: 45% of Doctors would quit if Congress passes Health Care Overhaul - Page 3

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Change you can believe in: 45% of Doctors would quit if Congress passes Health Care Overhaul (Page 3 of 5)

Posted: 9/19/2009 9:42:33 AM EDT

[#1]

Quoted:
And then they would do what - dig ditches for 120K, go into real estate? Its not like they have a skill set that will convert to other occupations. Whatever - It takes an above average person to take a cut in the quality of life and the style of life on principle alone. I will believe it when I see it.

Any private-practice, anesthesia/trauma/surgeon MD has shown:

They are good at math.
They have people skills.
They are skilled problem-solvers.
They can think problems through.
They thrive on stress.
They have above average business skills.
Good leadership skills.
Good planning skills.
Excellent cost/risk/benefit skills.
They know how to study, integrate knowledge, and form goals and plans.

They will have no problem finding well-paying work in the private sector, especially if it remains possible for them to hold their license and still "doctor" on the side.
Business needs people like this.

Posted: 9/19/2009 11:28:42 AM EDT

[#2]

If Obamacare passes, the current medical system will turn into a two tier system. The best doctors will go into a "pay as you go" practice where their fees are much less, they make their own decisions, and they deal with the patient only...not their health insurance. They will also run less tests, have less staff (like the ones they hire to deal with the insurance companies), and they will likely join together to have hospitals, ORs, etc.

The next system is the government system. You will still likely get good care but it will come at a great expense. Namely, long waits for care, restricted medical tests, and the like. This medicine will only focus on the least common denominator. Oh, you have a pain in your chest, must be that chili you ate. There will not be any time or room for medical ingenuity, just processes. The doctors will likely be committed and caring (we hope) they just won't have the time, the training, or anything else to be creative.

Medical training will also be affected. We learn from those who have gone before us. If physicians are not getting exposed to training by the top 50% then they simply won't know any better. When I was completing my residency at a medical school/VA, all of the incoming residents were from India. I am sure they were great docs, but it gives an idea of how many Americans aren't going through the process. They told me that only in the recent years where there this many openings for foreign med school graduates.

When I was doing my five years of clinical training (I have a PhD so I am one of the few kinds of clinical, yet academically trained, doctors) my attendings just simply told me to not accept Medicare/Medicaid, for any reason whatsoever. They said that if I wanted to help the needy then I should just do pro bono work out of my clinic after hours or that I should volunteer somewhere. They said that Medicare/Medicaid always costs you in the long run.

Mental health has already had a two tier system for a long time. Behavioral health has traditionally only been reimbursed 50% of what the clinician charges (This will change under 2010 parity laws). The best mental health folks simply don't take insurance and have not for a while. They usually charge a straight $120 to $150 per hour in cash. The patients like it, the provider likes it. There are those who choose to practice for the VA and other agencies such as hospitals. However, they aren't paid as well as private practice docs are. When I was at the VA, most of the psychologists there were former military (most were retired bird or light cols.) that already had a retirement income coming in. They could afford to work with the VA. Not so for many others.

Posted: 9/19/2009 11:35:26 AM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
No offense but a few of you don't know what you're talking about.

Hopefully some current physicians will come along to give their perspective and help explain to some of the people on here why it is realistic that many doctors would quit their current practice or retire early. I'll try to explain it as best I can as a pre-med college senior who has been around the medical field for years and has a family member who is a physician. I'm going to try not to repeat the figures that have already been cited on this thread or get too detailed but here is what I have learned from talking to many doctors and looking at the data out there.

The current medical system has been paying doctors, especially those in speciality fields, less and less over the last few decades. Many doctors are getting paid substantially less for the things they do compared to the 1980's. The bunion operation that was mentioned in a post before mine is an example of this. The are many more examples of these across all specialities of medicine. Not only are they getting paid less, but that doesn't even account for inflation. Your cardiologist is getting less in 2009 dollars to save your life by doing angioplasty if you have a heart attack than he was paid in the 1980's using 1980's dollars for doing the same thing. It has gotten to the point that many doctors can make very little on treating medicare patients and some others. Many specialists actually lose money on office visits after their practice costs are accounted for.

Furthermore, malpractice insurance has skyrocketed. While the rates for lower risk specialties, such as family practice, might "only" be $10K or $20K, insurance costs can reach over $100K a year for some surgical specialties in some parts of the country. This is driving up the cost of healthcare to the consumer and driving doctors out of medicine.

Not every doctor makes 200-300 thousand a year. Peds and family practice can make in the low 100's in many parts of the country before taxes. So take away about 50% of what it says the salary is for taxes and make sure to take out the tens of thousands for malpractice insurance and you now have some doctors taking home less than 70K a year. Now I'm not saying thats a horrible salary but its not what everyone thinks doctors make.

Many of the top specialties are experiencing a shortage of doctors and/or are about to in the next 5-10 years. Many of the old doctors were around for the hayday of medicine, as far as pay and respect is concerned. They don't really need the money but enjoy practicing medicine. Most are very financially secure. They are the ones who will retire if Obama passes his health care. So we will lose many of the most qualified doctors from the fields experiencing the worst shortages with replacements taking 12 years to come through the pipeline after graduating college for many of these specialties. Many of the ones who will stay will do so to pay off their debts and then some of them will move on. Qualified students will be less likely to apply to medical school and less willing to take on the massive debt and time commitment to enter the complex specialties. So we'll continue to see a massive shortage of doctors in some specialties for decades to come. The ones that come out will likely not be as good on average because medical schools will have to accept lower quality students due to the increasing demand for doctors combined with the decreasing interest in the medical field due to increased regulation and lower salaries.

Another consideration to think about is the MASSIVE financial sacrifice people have to make to become a doctor in this day in age(yes I said MASSIVE financial sacrifice). Think about this for a second. To become a doctor, you have to

-attend 4 years of undergraduate studies at a university(age 18-22). Cost anywhere from $0 for those on scholorships to $200,000 for a private university
-attend 4 years of medical school(age 22-26). Cost anywhere from $0(however full scholorships for med school are rare) to $300,000 for a private medical school
-3 years of residency(age 26-29). You get paid during this time but you often work 6 days a week or more,have a 80 hour work week, and get paid about $39,000 a year. That works out to just under $10 an hour pretax. So now you're making about as much as an assistant manager at your local gas station and still have massive debt.

So now you are 29 and finished up with residency. However, most specialities require another 1-8 years of fellowship training. For example, to be a regular cardiologist who doesn't do surgery or any operations, its another 3 years. If you want to be a cardiologist who does the operations too, such as angioplasty and stents , its another 1-2 years after that. If you want to be able to put in pacemakers and heart defibrillator implants like Dick Cheney has, thats another 1 year or so. To summarize this, by the time doctors are 30, the first ones are just finishing up training and getting out into the workplace. Depending on the speciality, you might not be done until you are 35 or older.

So lets compare that 32 year old new doctor to others in the workforce or other college graduates. For the last 10-14 years, their peers have been working, earning money, and not taking on hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt. They should already have nice nest eggs building up and probably bought a home. Now you have to spend the next few years paying off that massive debt from college and medical school. At the same time, you're getting paid less and less for the services you perform and your insurance rates and going up every year. So by the time you are reaching your upper 30's and maybe into your 40's, you are finally debt free and can start saving money for your kids college, your retirement and other things. By now you have given up 15-20 years of your employment life and you're net worth is not much higher than a 19 year old that has worked for a year at wal-mart.

Granted, from this point on you should be making a good income. However, unless you plan on working past 60, you only have about 20 years of work left. Furthermore, lets hope that you didn't change your mind partway through this journey, become disabled somehow, or flunk out and end up with $200,000 of debt with no large future salary to pay it off.

Thread/

Great post.

I'm on the fence right now as well. I want to go into medicine, but I don't like the idea of investing all the time and money to get a medical degree only to be a government employee making low wages, working long hours, and spending more time wading through red tape and catch 22 situations dictated by non-medical bureaucrats than actually treating patients properly. I want a job where I enjoy what I am doing and can make a good living. Medicine could provide that, but if I have the government telling me what I can and can't do then much of the enjoyment is gone. If I'm making a low salary and getting taxed to death then the monetary incentive is gone. If enjoyment and money are removed from the equation, then I'll take my brains and my effort and go into a different field.

Posted: 9/19/2009 12:54:52 PM EDT

[#4]

Quoted:

Quoted:
No offense but a few of you don't know what you're talking about.

Hopefully some current physicians will come along to give their perspective and help explain to some of the people on here why it is realistic that many doctors would quit their current practice or retire early. I'll try to explain it as best I can as a pre-med college senior who has been around the medical field for years and has a family member who is a physician. I'm going to try not to repeat the figures that have already been cited on this thread or get too detailed but here is what I have learned from talking to many doctors and looking at the data out there.

The current medical system has been paying doctors, especially those in speciality fields, less and less over the last few decades. Many doctors are getting paid substantially less for the things they do compared to the 1980's. The bunion operation that was mentioned in a post before mine is an example of this. The are many more examples of these across all specialities of medicine. Not only are they getting paid less, but that doesn't even account for inflation. Your cardiologist is getting less in 2009 dollars to save your life by doing angioplasty if you have a heart attack than he was paid in the 1980's using 1980's dollars for doing the same thing. It has gotten to the point that many doctors can make very little on treating medicare patients and some others. Many specialists actually lose money on office visits after their practice costs are accounted for.

Furthermore, malpractice insurance has skyrocketed. While the rates for lower risk specialties, such as family practice, might "only" be $10K or $20K, insurance costs can reach over $100K a year for some surgical specialties in some parts of the country. This is driving up the cost of healthcare to the consumer and driving doctors out of medicine.

Not every doctor makes 200-300 thousand a year. Peds and family practice can make in the low 100's in many parts of the country before taxes. So take away about 50% of what it says the salary is for taxes and make sure to take out the tens of thousands for malpractice insurance and you now have some doctors taking home less than 70K a year. Now I'm not saying thats a horrible salary but its not what everyone thinks doctors make.

Many of the top specialties are experiencing a shortage of doctors and/or are about to in the next 5-10 years. Many of the old doctors were around for the hayday of medicine, as far as pay and respect is concerned. They don't really need the money but enjoy practicing medicine. Most are very financially secure. They are the ones who will retire if Obama passes his health care. So we will lose many of the most qualified doctors from the fields experiencing the worst shortages with replacements taking 12 years to come through the pipeline after graduating college for many of these specialties. Many of the ones who will stay will do so to pay off their debts and then some of them will move on. Qualified students will be less likely to apply to medical school and less willing to take on the massive debt and time commitment to enter the complex specialties. So we'll continue to see a massive shortage of doctors in some specialties for decades to come. The ones that come out will likely not be as good on average because medical schools will have to accept lower quality students due to the increasing demand for doctors combined with the decreasing interest in the medical field due to increased regulation and lower salaries.

Another consideration to think about is the MASSIVE financial sacrifice people have to make to become a doctor in this day in age(yes I said MASSIVE financial sacrifice). Think about this for a second. To become a doctor, you have to

-attend 4 years of undergraduate studies at a university(age 18-22). Cost anywhere from $0 for those on scholorships to $200,000 for a private university
-attend 4 years of medical school(age 22-26). Cost anywhere from $0(however full scholorships for med school are rare) to $300,000 for a private medical school
-3 years of residency(age 26-29). You get paid during this time but you often work 6 days a week or more,have a 80 hour work week, and get paid about $39,000 a year. That works out to just under $10 an hour pretax. So now you're making about as much as an assistant manager at your local gas station and still have massive debt.

So now you are 29 and finished up with residency. However, most specialities require another 1-8 years of fellowship training. For example, to be a regular cardiologist who doesn't do surgery or any operations, its another 3 years. If you want to be a cardiologist who does the operations too, such as angioplasty and stents , its another 1-2 years after that. If you want to be able to put in pacemakers and heart defibrillator implants like Dick Cheney has, thats another 1 year or so. To summarize this, by the time doctors are 30, the first ones are just finishing up training and getting out into the workplace. Depending on the speciality, you might not be done until you are 35 or older.

So lets compare that 32 year old new doctor to others in the workforce or other college graduates. For the last 10-14 years, their peers have been working, earning money, and not taking on hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt. They should already have nice nest eggs building up and probably bought a home. Now you have to spend the next few years paying off that massive debt from college and medical school. At the same time, you're getting paid less and less for the services you perform and your insurance rates and going up every year. So by the time you are reaching your upper 30's and maybe into your 40's, you are finally debt free and can start saving money for your kids college, your retirement and other things. By now you have given up 15-20 years of your employment life and you're net worth is not much higher than a 19 year old that has worked for a year at wal-mart.

Granted, from this point on you should be making a good income. However, unless you plan on working past 60, you only have about 20 years of work left. Furthermore, lets hope that you didn't change your mind partway through this journey, become disabled somehow, or flunk out and end up with $200,000 of debt with no large future salary to pay it off.

Thread/

Great post.

I'm on the fence right now as well. I want to go into medicine, but I don't like the idea of investing all the time and money to get a medical degree only to be a government employee making low wages, working long hours, and spending more time wading through red tape and catch 22 situations dictated by non-medical bureaucrats than actually treating patients properly. I want a job where I enjoy what I am doing and can make a good living. Medicine could provide that, but if I have the government telling me what I can and can't do then much of the enjoyment is gone. If I'm making a low salary and getting taxed to death then the monetary incentive is gone. If enjoyment and money are removed from the equation, then I'll take my brains and my effort and go into a different field.

You forgot your student loan....unless your parents pay for it.
My advice: Do not get in medicine. A lot of BS already now, imagine when this health care kicks in.

Posted: 9/19/2009 2:11:47 PM EDT

[#5]

I'm in my second year of medical school now. I'll be mid-30's and $240K in debt (not including interest so more like $300K) by the time I'm done. I can't exactly "retire" if Obamacare moves forward. I also don't think it would be possible for me to pay off my loans in any realistic time frame if reimbursements continue to fall as they would with Obama's cost-saving initiative. But I can sure as hell move my ass to Grand Cayman or some other rich island and set up a boutique medical practice. If I go into orthopaedics, I can set up a for-cash joint replacement practice and work a normal 40 hours a week.

Not exactly what I want to do with my 15 year MD degree, as money was not the reason I went to medical school. I'd like to be active in my community, contribute to my field, volunteer when possible, blah blah blah. But Obamacare may force a lot of hands on this one. So it goes. Not all doctors may necessarily retire if this goes through, but that doesn't mean they'll be there for you when the dust settles.

Posted: 9/19/2009 2:31:31 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Great post.

I'm on the fence right now as well. I want to go into medicine, but I don't like the idea of investing all the time and money to get a medical degree only to be a government employee making low wages, working long hours, and spending more time wading through red tape and catch 22 situations dictated by non-medical bureaucrats than actually treating patients properly. I want a job where I enjoy what I am doing and can make a good living. Medicine could provide that, but if I have the government telling me what I can and can't do then much of the enjoyment is gone. If I'm making a low salary and getting taxed to death then the monetary incentive is gone. If enjoyment and money are removed from the equation, then I'll take my brains and my effort and go into a different field.

You forgot your student loan....unless your parents pay for it.
My advice: Do not get in medicine. A lot of BS already now, imagine when this health care kicks in.

Oh I haven't forgotten it, and my parents won't be paying for any of it.

Posted: 9/19/2009 3:11:48 PM EDT

[#7]

Doctors and physician groups are already on the edge... it isn't going to take much more to push many of them off the cliff and into retirement. As many have said earlier in this thread, as a group, doctors will have no difficulty finding other employment.

And FWIW, this is on the near horizon: Medicare/medicaid payment reductions that are scheduled to be imposed in January will compel many cardiology groups to disband and/or cease doing imaging work in their facilities. What does this mean if you need a cardiologist? It means multiple trips to the Dr's office for consultations and then to the hospital for imaging studies & surgery. Hope you aren't in critical need of surgery - it means that instead of going from exam to surgery in two days, it could take as much as a week and a half. It means that if you are in a "small" town, your cardiologist may choose to move elsewhere or retire. It means that the hospital will be paid more to do the same procedures that the cardiologists' practice is currently paid. It means that patients will pay more, encounter more delays, and get less service. And this is before we add Obamacare & 40mil new patients to the system.

Posted: 9/19/2009 4:46:43 PM EDT

[#8]

Let's put it in even simpler terms.

Right now, you have the government and insurance companies paying (along with a lot of nonpayers and self pay) for the medical care they receive.

Obamacare passes.

Private insurances start to fall by the wayside. Some of the bigger ones will probably do OK for a while (until Obamacare II passes the public option).

Who do you THINK is going to be writing the regulations for both the Doctors Offices/Hospitals and Insurance Companies.

Who do you think is going to be doing the checking on the books to make sure patients aren't overcharged at the Drs Office/Hospital or their insurance is in compliance.

The most likely source for these inspectors is the same source as they got their TSA employees.

Right now, that's the people that work for ACORN (hey, didn't ACORN fire a few recently) and many of the people on the welfare roles.

THOSE are the people that are going to be making your insurance decisions and medical decisions for you.

AFARR

Posted: 9/19/2009 6:10:39 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:

Let's put it in even simpler terms.

Right now, you have the government and insurance companies paying (along with a lot of nonpayers and self pay) for the medical care they receive.

Obamacare passes.

Private insurances start to fall by the wayside. Some of the bigger ones will probably do OK for a while (until Obamacare II passes the public option).

Who do you THINK is going to be writing the regulations for both the Doctors Offices/Hospitals and Insurance Companies.

Who do you think is going to be doing the checking on the books to make sure patients aren't overcharged at the Drs Office/Hospital or their insurance is in compliance.

The most likely source for these inspectors is the same source as they got their TSA employees.

Right now, that's the people that work for ACORN (hey, didn't ACORN fire a few recently) and many of the people on the welfare roles.

THOSE are the people that are going to be making your insurance decisions and medical decisions for you.

AFARR

Nailed it.

Posted: 9/19/2009 6:17:01 PM EDT

[#10]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Simple math kids.
Make a job worth less than the hassle and people will walk away in droves.

It's always easy for the government to open the immigration window for doctors if we face a shortcoming. Tons of Indian, Chinese, and Latin American doctors would love to come up here and bring their families.

I'm fucking amazed that we haven't done this already. If doctors are really going to complain about government control, government can ease the artificial barriers it has set up for entering the medical field.

lol. STFU.

Indian, Chinese, Latin American =/= US Doctors.

Break your foot in India and see what passes for "surgery" there.

Posted: 9/19/2009 6:18:39 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The fallout is already occurring.
I have had a half-dozen students that I advise tell me that they are dropping pre-med due to the One. These aren't run-of-the-mill freshmen. All of them are in their third year, and all of them could make med school and become fantastic physicians. Two of them stated that they WANTED to have a rural practice.

That opens their seats up to the next half-dozen that are "not quite the best". Thanks, Dear Leader!

Not a big deal, there are still many times more med school applicants than seats.

Also, doctors should consider themselves lucky as shit that what happened to the lawyer field did not happen to doctors. Namely, a bunch of T4 law schools flooding the market with applicants bringing down lawyer salaries to 40-60k for the ones lucky enough to get a job. But doctors have their guild/union to thank for the artificial restrictions. Fuck 'em, Obama should build a shit ton more medical school slots if he thinks it's a permanent shift, and allow immigration of qualified doctors from overseas to meet any baby-boomber "surge"

lol. STFU.

lawyer =/= doctor on every single fucking level of comparison except for the fact that both jobs require living, breathing humans.

Posted: 9/19/2009 6:20:45 PM EDT

[#12]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Attorneys who did well in school have no problem acquiring a well paying job. Sorry, I don't want a shitty lawyer representing me, and I sure as hell don't want shitty doctors working on me. If a foreign doctor can pass USMLE part 1, 2, and 3 and then completes a residency/fellowship, then fine. Otherwise, no thanks.

Um yes they do have a hard time finding a well-paying job. Even attorneys with years of solid experience and credentials are getting washed out. The market for lawyers is realizing there is no reason to pay 350 per hour for someone just out of law school, or multiples of that for a partner-level position.

Also, it's hilarious you think that foreign doctors are inferior when the biggest area of medical tourism has involved going to Singapore/Asia to get work done. In Singapore, medical costs are much lower, and doctors/hospitals advertise prices up front, which is illegal in the US from what I understand (thanks AMA).

You have no idea what you are talking about. Just like the rest of your posts in basically every thread you post in.

Posted: 9/19/2009 6:33:38 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Attorneys who did well in school have no problem acquiring a well paying job. Sorry, I don't want a shitty lawyer representing me, and I sure as hell don't want shitty doctors working on me. If a foreign doctor can pass USMLE part 1, 2, and 3 and then completes a residency/fellowship, then fine. Otherwise, no thanks.

Um yes they do have a hard time finding a well-paying job. Even attorneys with years of solid experience and credentials are getting washed out. The market for lawyers is realizing there is no reason to pay 350 per hour for someone just out of law school, or multiples of that for a partner-level position.

Also, it's hilarious you think that foreign doctors are inferior when the biggest area of medical tourism has involved going to Singapore/Asia to get work done. In Singapore, medical costs are much lower, and doctors/hospitals advertise prices up front, which is illegal in the US from what I understand (thanks AMA).

You have no idea what you are talking about. Just like the rest of your posts in basically every thread you post in.

Hey, all I have is the evidence of successful medical systems in every other first world country that perform roughly on par with ours (or better) for 1/2 to 1/3rd the cost.

I guess that's nothing compared to quoting Ayn Rand or thinking up absurd scenarios based on things you've heard from Glenn Beck though.

Posted: 9/19/2009 6:34:16 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:
You know, I half way want the health care abortion to pass. I dated several female doctors in the past, I hate all of them now, and I would take great enjoyment from their suffering and the destruction of their careers.

Of course, the downside is the dying early because of crappy healthcare part.

I don't even know how to respond to that.

Posted: 9/19/2009 6:37:00 PM EDT

[#15]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Simple math kids.
Make a job worth less than the hassle and people will walk away in droves.

It's always easy for the government to open the immigration window for doctors if we face a shortcoming. Tons of Indian, Chinese, and Latin American doctors would love to come up here and bring their families.

I'm fucking amazed that we haven't done this already. If doctors are really going to complain about government control, government can ease the artificial barriers it has set up for entering the medical field.

I'd call my damn veterinarian first.

GR

Posted: 9/19/2009 6:38:03 PM EDT

[#16]

Quoted:
There is no such thing as a labor shortage, only a refusal to pay wages adequate to meet demand.

Bingo! Canada is a great example. While there is most definitely a shortage of doctors, an equal or even greater problem is the Gov't doesn't pay the ones that are working adequately. So docs up there don't work as hard.

Posted: 9/19/2009 6:39:57 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:
I've worked with and personally known plenty of Physicians over the years.

They come in all types, I've seen my fair share of idiots, and I also seen a quite a few that were simply poor at business.

But I can guarantee you that if the money dries up worse than it already has –– and it will dry up significantly under obamacare –– every single one with even half a brain will jump ship and find another line of work. Or retire.

One thing they all have in common... They are well educated, well connected, and often have deep ties in their communities. It will not be hard for them to quickly find another another way to earn income.

We docs go to medical school, not business school.

If the system weren't as complex as it is today, you wouldn't need any great business sense.

Posted: 9/19/2009 6:41:54 PM EDT

[#18]

Quoted:
"$30,000 a year you say?? USA here I come!!"

http://www.voanews.com/english/images/levine_ghana_doctor.jpg

Why would a foreign doc move to the U.S. for 30K a year (I know it's an exaggeration) when they can make the same at home.

Posted: 9/19/2009 6:43:48 PM EDT

[#19]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Attorneys who did well in school have no problem acquiring a well paying job. Sorry, I don't want a shitty lawyer representing me, and I sure as hell don't want shitty doctors working on me. If a foreign doctor can pass USMLE part 1, 2, and 3 and then completes a residency/fellowship, then fine. Otherwise, no thanks.

Um yes they do have a hard time finding a well-paying job. Even attorneys with years of solid experience and credentials are getting washed out. The market for lawyers is realizing there is no reason to pay 350 per hour for someone just out of law school, or multiples of that for a partner-level position.

Also, it's hilarious you think that foreign doctors are inferior when the biggest area of medical tourism has involved going to Singapore/Asia to get work done. In Singapore, medical costs are much lower, and doctors/hospitals advertise prices up front, which is illegal in the US from what I understand (thanks AMA).

You have no idea what you are talking about. Just like the rest of your posts in basically every thread you post in.

Hey, all I have is the evidence of successful medical systems in every other first world country that perform roughly on par with ours (or better) for 1/2 to 1/3rd the cost.

I guess that's nothing compared to quoting Ayn Rand or thinking up absurd scenarios based on things you've heard from Glenn Beck though.

You brought up India as an example of a 1st world medical system while ignoring "medical tourism" coming into the United States.

Successful medical systems. LOL. Please help us all understand how Singapore's medical system can be compared to that of the United States.

ETA: Who mentioned Glen Beck or Ayn Rand? Look, pretty much every single argument you have presented is surface deep and half-truths or complete falsehoods. I get that you are trying to be a troll. You're entertaining though, because I know idiots that think just like you.

ETA2: First world....successful medical systems....LOL

. A+ on the comedy factor.

Posted: 9/19/2009 6:50:21 PM EDT

[#20]

Quoted:
You brought up India as an example of a 1st world medical system while ignoring "medical tourism" coming into the United States.

Successful medical systems. LOL. Please help us all understand how Singapore's medical system can be compared to that of the United States.

Only a fleetingly small portion of medical tourism is to the US, both in monetary amounts and numbers of people.

And yes, these systems are successful based on the fact that they are very popular with people taking vacations to get surgeries done. And as far as other first world countries with UHC, their life expectancies and many other metrics are similar to ours in most cases, or better, for half to one-third the cost.

Also, you've obviously never been to Singapore if you think it sucks. The British influence is strong (good english all around), it's a hyper modern financial center, and doctors/hospitals are allowed to advertise prices for procedures outright. It's a way more capitalist state than the US that has provided UHC. They have also done their implementation in an interesting way (look it up if you care to know)

Posted: 9/19/2009 7:01:40 PM EDT

[#21]

Quoted:

Quoted:
You brought up India as an example of a 1st world medical system while ignoring "medical tourism" coming into the United States.

Successful medical systems. LOL. Please help us all understand how Singapore's medical system can be compared to that of the United States.

Only a fleetingly small portion of medical tourism is to the US, both in monetary amounts and numbers of people.

And yes, these systems are successful based on the fact that they are very popular with people taking vacations to get surgeries done. And as far as other first world countries with UHC, their life expectancies and many other metrics are similar to ours in most cases, or better, for half to one-third the cost.

Also, you've obviously never been to Singapore if you think it sucks. The British influence is strong (good english all around), it's a hyper modern financial center, and doctors/hospitals are allowed to advertise prices for procedures outright. It's a way more capitalist state than the US that has provided UHC. They have also done their implementation in an interesting way (look it up if you care to know)

LOL!!!!!!

Singapore: population 4,608,167.

United States: population 304,059,724.

I must have missed the part where I said singapore has a terrible system. LOL. Thanks for pointing it out.

Medical tourism =/= successful system. If that's the qualification...well then....lol.

ETA: I'm convinced you are either a high school student or first year college student. there is just no way someone older than that can think like you do.

Posted: 9/19/2009 7:19:22 PM EDT

[#22]

Quoted:

Quoted:

Simple math kids.

Make a job worth less than the hassle and people will walk away in droves.

It's always easy for the government to open the immigration window for doctors if we face a shortcoming. Tons of Indian, Chinese, and Latin American doctors would love to come up here and bring their families.

I'm fucking amazed that we haven't done this already. If doctors are really going to complain about government control, government can ease the artificial barriers it has set up for entering the medical field.

I'd call my damn veterinarian first.

GR

With a few of my ex's that would be my first call anyway.

Posted: 9/19/2009 7:23:53 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:

Quoted:
72% of the doctors polled disagree with the administration's claim that the government can cover 47 million more people with better-quality care at lower cost.

Wow, 25% of doctors are dumbasses.

I'd love to see how that 25% breaks down in terms of specialty and function. Back when my dad was a chief resident, he had a resident under him who was insanely book smart, but inept with actual patients and lacking in common sense. So the guy became a research physician of some kind. So since 1982 the guy hasn't seen a single patient, but he's a "practicing doctor." He has no first hand experience with insurance reimbursement, malpractice insurance, etc. I can see how a man so divorced from the reality of medicine may be idealistically stupid.

The definition of a 'practicing doctor' is usually understood as someone who is seeing patients. For instance, only 19% of practicing doctors are members of the AMA, the self-appointed 'voice' for doctors.

Posted: 9/19/2009 7:34:28 PM EDT

[#24]

Quoted:

Quoted:
You brought up India as an example of a 1st world medical system while ignoring "medical tourism" coming into the United States.

Successful medical systems. LOL. Please help us all understand how Singapore's medical system can be compared to that of the United States.

Only a fleetingly small portion of medical tourism is to the US, both in monetary amounts and numbers of people.

And yes, these systems are successful based on the fact that they are very popular with people taking vacations to get surgeries done. And as far as other first world countries with UHC, their life expectancies and many other metrics are similar to ours in most cases, or better, for half to one-third the cost.

Also, you've obviously never been to Singapore if you think it sucks. The British influence is strong (good english all around), it's a hyper modern financial center, and doctors/hospitals are allowed to advertise prices for procedures outright. It's a way more capitalist state than the US that has provided UHC. They have also done their implementation in an interesting way (look it up if you care to know)

In bold:

You're right. I've never been to Singapore. Had the opportunity several times, but passed. However, assuming that I know nothing about Singapore because I have never been there would be a childish play. On the other hand, if you HAVE indeed been to Singapore at least once and failed to understand the WHY and HOW behind issues affecting that country (as you have clearly illustrated through your utterly failed attempt via comparison of the United States to Singapore), then you have a meager mind.

There are reasons why UHC would not work in the US and there are also reasons why democracy would never work in the People's Republic of China. You have absolutely fucking failed at seeing that point because the air supply to your brain has been minimized by the leftist penis currently parked deep within your well-worn throat.

Un-stupify yourself and come up with some better material.

ETA: Almost forgot....LOL!

Posted: 9/19/2009 7:39:57 PM EDT

[#25]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Simple math kids.
Make a job worth less than the hassle and people will walk away in droves.

It's always easy for the government to open the immigration window for doctors if we face a shortcoming. Tons of Indian, Chinese, and Latin American doctors would love to come up here and bring their families.

I'm fucking amazed that we haven't done this already. If doctors are really going to complain about government control, government can ease the artificial barriers it has set up for entering the medical field.

Wow, someone took their Full Retard pill this morning. Why not open all teachers' jobs to foreigners for 50% of what they get now. There are plenty of Indians trained in math, science, IT, etc. and imagine all the savings to the taxpayer!

Posted: 9/19/2009 7:45:13 PM EDT

[#26]

Quoted:

Quoted:
i will still practice...once I become a doc that is. They had better not get the equivalent of illegal immigrants to do the work

They won't be illegal.

There are 10's of thousands of doctors in other 3 rd world countries where their degree is not valid here.

Obama will fix that

A foreign MD degree is generally valid as long as they pass the United States Medical Licensing Exam (USMLE) steps I, II and III. The point isn't whether you can replace U.S. doctors with foreign doctors to save money, but if you open that Pandora's Box, why not do that with all jobs in the U.S. to save money? Farm workers, teachers, construction workers, etc.

Posted: 9/19/2009 7:47:07 PM EDT

[#27]

Quoted:
A foreign MD degree is generally valid as long as they pass the United States Medical Licensing Exam (USMLE) steps I, II and III. The point isn't whether you can replace U.S. doctors with foreign doctors to save money, but if you open that Pandora's Box, why not do that with all jobs in the U.S. to save money? Farm workers, teachers, construction workers, etc.

Sounds good to me. Competition only makes markets stronger.

Posted: 9/19/2009 7:50:21 PM EDT

[#28]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The fallout is already occurring.
I have had a half-dozen students that I advise tell me that they are dropping pre-med due to the One. These aren't run-of-the-mill freshmen. All of them are in their third year, and all of them could make med school and become fantastic physicians. Two of them stated that they WANTED to have a rural practice.

That opens their seats up to the next half-dozen that are "not quite the best". Thanks, Dear Leader!

Not a big deal, there are still many times more med school applicants than seats.

Also, doctors should consider themselves lucky as shit that what happened to the lawyer field did not happen to doctors. Namely, a bunch of T4 law schools flooding the market with applicants bringing down lawyer salaries to 40-60k for the ones lucky enough to get a job. But doctors have their guild/union to thank for the artificial restrictions. Fuck 'em, Obama should build a shit ton more medical school slots if he thinks it's a permanent shift, and allow immigration of qualified doctors from overseas to meet any baby-boomber "surge"

You are ignorant. Applicant does not equal qualified applicant. People like you assume that because someone applied to medical school that they are magically qualified to go to medical school.

Posted: 9/19/2009 7:52:22 PM EDT

[#29]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The fallout is already occurring.
I have had a half-dozen students that I advise tell me that they are dropping pre-med due to the One. These aren't run-of-the-mill freshmen. All of them are in their third year, and all of them could make med school and become fantastic physicians. Two of them stated that they WANTED to have a rural practice.

That opens their seats up to the next half-dozen that are "not quite the best". Thanks, Dear Leader!

Not a big deal, there are still many times more med school applicants than seats.

Also, doctors should consider themselves lucky as shit that what happened to the lawyer field did not happen to doctors. Namely, a bunch of T4 law schools flooding the market with applicants bringing down lawyer salaries to 40-60k for the ones lucky enough to get a job. But doctors have their guild/union to thank for the artificial restrictions. Fuck 'em, Obama should build a shit ton more medical school slots if he thinks it's a permanent shift, and allow immigration of qualified doctors from overseas to meet any baby-boomber "surge"

Attorneys who did well in school have no problem acquiring a well paying job. Sorry, I don't want a shitty lawyer representing me, and I sure as hell don't want shitty doctors working on me. If a foreign doctor can pass USMLE part 1, 2, and 3 and then completes a residency/fellowship, then fine. Otherwise, no thanks.

Exactly. I've had lawyers do a bunch of stuff for me and they ain't making 40-60K per year. If you want something done right you don't hire an idiot to do the work for you.

Posted: 9/19/2009 7:52:29 PM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
And as far as other first world countries with UHC, their life expectancies and many other metrics are similar to ours in most cases, or better, for half to one-third the cost.

Wrong.....life expectancy not a good measure of health care success

Here's a better one:

5 Year Cancer Survival Rates:

We've covered this before...in many countries they don't consider an infant to be "alive" if born premature until they leave the hospital (dropping their REPORTED infant mortality rate), they don't have the Motor Vehicle Accidents we do, they don't have equivalent crime (violent..as in homicides, esp. due to involvement with drugs/gangs), and we are a multi-cultural society (vs. more homogeneous societies elsewhere)––all of which lower US life expectancy. Control for "Lifestyle" issues (i.e. use things like cancer survival which is pretty universal, instead of deaths from heart dz...higher in our fat society than in areas with better diets), and the US tops them.

As to "Advertising Costs"....sure, you can call a local hospital and ask what will it cost to have your appendix taken out...they can probably quote you the OR time, Surgeons/Anesthesia/Path fees, etc....but will that cost be the same if you develop a severe infection or allergic rxn (or something called "malignant hyperthermia")? No...and in a lot of the places that advertise $1000 to get your appendix out...I'm guessing you get a free body bag with your surgery if needed––-or will they just write off the $250k+ a long ICU stay will cost them?

Posted: 9/19/2009 7:53:45 PM EDT

[#31]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Attorneys who did well in school have no problem acquiring a well paying job. Sorry, I don't want a shitty lawyer representing me, and I sure as hell don't want shitty doctors working on me. If a foreign doctor can pass USMLE part 1, 2, and 3 and then completes a residency/fellowship, then fine. Otherwise, no thanks.

Um yes they do have a hard time finding a well-paying job. Even attorneys with years of solid experience and credentials are getting washed out. The market for lawyers is realizing there is no reason to pay 350 per hour for someone just out of law school, or multiples of that for a partner-level position.

Also, it's hilarious you think that foreign doctors are inferior when the biggest area of medical tourism has involved going to Singapore/Asia to get work done. In Singapore, medical costs are much lower, and doctors/hospitals advertise prices up front, which is illegal in the US from what I understand (thanks AMA).

Where do you think those doctors were trained? I'll give you a hint: it starts with U.S. and end in A.

Posted: 9/19/2009 7:54:59 PM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Simple math kids.
Make a job worth less than the hassle and people will walk away in droves.

It's always easy for the government to open the immigration window for doctors if we face a shortcoming. Tons of Indian, Chinese, and Latin American doctors would love to come up here and bring their families.

I'm fucking amazed that we haven't done this already. If doctors are really going to complain about government control, government can ease the artificial barriers it has set up for entering the medical field.

This will end real well...

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/b/b6/Dr_Nick.png/363px-Dr_Nick.png

"The red thing's connected to the...uh...I should know this..."

Exactly. See quality go down. Also, yet another post out of our resident socialist's area of knowlege. We do have manyforeign physicians coming over here. The "artificial barriers" that are placed in their way is called qualifications. Most have to re-train and re-test to qualify to work here. Do you want to lower the standards to increase the number of bodies in the profession?

Apparently that's exactly what he wants. Some people can't think beyond the end of their socialist nose.

Posted: 9/19/2009 7:55:44 PM EDT

[#33]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The fallout is already occurring.
I have had a half-dozen students that I advise tell me that they are dropping pre-med due to the One. These aren't run-of-the-mill freshmen. All of them are in their third year, and all of them could make med school and become fantastic physicians. Two of them stated that they WANTED to have a rural practice.

That opens their seats up to the next half-dozen that are "not quite the best". Thanks, Dear Leader!

Not a big deal, there are still many times more med school applicants than seats.
And how many of those applicants are qualified or would make decent physicians? We have competition for spots to arrive at the most qualified graduates. You want the best, right?
Also, doctors should consider themselves lucky as shit that what happened to the lawyer field did not happen to doctors. Namely, a bunch of T4 law schools flooding the market with applicants bringing down lawyer salaries to 40-60k for the ones lucky enough to get a job. But doctors have their guild/union to thank for the artificial restrictions. Fuck 'em, Obama should build a shit ton more medical school slots if he thinks it's a permanent shift, and allow immigration of qualified doctors from overseas to meet any baby-boomber "surge"

The is no guild/union. The AMA represents less than 20% of physicians.
You haven't the faintest clue.

According to Wiki it's 19%.

Posted: 9/19/2009 7:57:48 PM EDT

[#34]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Attorneys who did well in school have no problem acquiring a well paying job. Sorry, I don't want a shitty lawyer representing me, and I sure as hell don't want shitty doctors working on me. If a foreign doctor can pass USMLE part 1, 2, and 3 and then completes a residency/fellowship, then fine. Otherwise, no thanks.

Um yes they do have a hard time finding a well-paying job. Even attorneys with years of solid experience and credentials are getting washed out. The market for lawyers is realizing there is no reason to pay 350 per hour for someone just out of law school, or multiples of that for a partner-level position.

Also, it's hilarious you think that foreign doctors are inferior when the biggest area of medical tourism has involved going to Singapore/Asia to get work done. In Singapore, medical costs are much lower, and doctors/hospitals advertise prices up front, which is illegal in the US from what I understand (thanks AMA).

Where do you think those doctors were trained? I'll give you a hint: it starts with U.S. and end in A.

So what? What difference does it make?

It's not like government control of the healthcare system will ruin med schools (which are already heavily government subsidized/controlled). Also, the cost isn't a big deal because a lot of the doctors trained in the US and working in other countries don't pay their student loans back ever.

Posted: 9/19/2009 7:59:50 PM EDT

[#35]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The fallout is already occurring.
I have had a half-dozen students that I advise tell me that they are dropping pre-med due to the One. These aren't run-of-the-mill freshmen. All of them are in their third year, and all of them could make med school and become fantastic physicians. Two of them stated that they WANTED to have a rural practice.

That opens their seats up to the next half-dozen that are "not quite the best". Thanks, Dear Leader!

Not a big deal, there are still many times more med school applicants than seats.
And how many of those applicants are qualified or would make decent physicians? We have competition for spots to arrive at the most qualified graduates. You want the best, right?
Also, doctors should consider themselves lucky as shit that what happened to the lawyer field did not happen to doctors. Namely, a bunch of T4 law schools flooding the market with applicants bringing down lawyer salaries to 40-60k for the ones lucky enough to get a job. But doctors have their guild/union to thank for the artificial restrictions. Fuck 'em, Obama should build a shit ton more medical school slots if he thinks it's a permanent shift, and allow immigration of qualified doctors from overseas to meet any baby-boomber "surge"

The is no guild/union. The AMA represents less than 20% of physicians.
You haven't the faintest clue.

He's completely FOS, as usual.

Google "Canada medical school shortage"

That shortage BTW was caused by the gov't in 1990-91 when they drastically cut enrollment. I applied a year later and still managed to get into 2 of the schools I applied to up there.

Now they're trying to increase the number of docs by increasing enrollment but there will be a lag time of 4 years of med school plus 4-7 years of residency so between 8-11 years before the first of those doctors starts to practice.

Posted: 9/19/2009 8:02:27 PM EDT

[#36]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Does the proposed health care plan (Obamacare) force Physician to take Health insurance?? My wife's OBGYN just informed us (and all her patients) that she will no longer accept any insurance plan and run a direct payment cash for services business. The practice is called a medical boutique. Patients pay $2000.00 per year plus other fees. In return doctors will provide for the patients immediate care, house calls, ER visits etc.

If doctors opt for this practice then we will definitely have a two tier system. I believe that Congress would be hesitant to stop this type of business since many themselves are members of private Medical boutiques.

They have already thought of this. It will be unlawful to pay for medical treatment under some of the plans being floated about. The gubernit will even have access to bank accounts and credit card transactions......making sure nobody is paying. Cause dats racist.

Exactly. This is what they did in Canada. If you charge the patient directly = go to jail.

Posted: 9/19/2009 8:04:26 PM EDT

[#37]

Also I just want to point out to people claiming that doctors will all stay home if there is UHC a couple basic facts:

1) Nobody has provided any evidence of any figures showing exactly how much takehome salary doctors will forgo (or even if they will see a reduction in takehome pay) under any of the plans under consideration

2) Doctors who don't want to work for a public system have the option of working privately in most any UHC system, and the plan under consideration is a plan to force people to buy health insurance anyways.

3) What people claim they will do in a push poll is usually much different than what they will do when it actually comes down to it

4) Doctors/hospitals complain about how much medicare/medicaid reimburse, but they take it anyways for various reasons related to maintaining their businesses, from customer relations to charity, to volume considerations.

Posted: 9/19/2009 8:06:04 PM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Does the proposed health care plan (Obamacare) force Physician to take Health insurance?? My wife's OBGYN just informed us (and all her patients) that she will no longer accept any insurance plan and run a direct payment cash for services business. The practice is called a medical boutique. Patients pay $2000.00 per year plus other fees. In return doctors will provide for the patients immediate care, house calls, ER visits etc.

If doctors opt for this practice then we will definitely have a two tier system. I believe that Congress would be hesitant to stop this type of business since many themselves are members of private Medical boutiques.

They have already thought of this. It will be unlawful to pay for medical treatment under some of the plans being floated about. The gubernit will even have access to bank accounts and credit card transactions......making sure nobody is paying. Cause dats racist.

Exactly. This is what they did in Canada. If you charge the patient directly = go to jail.

This is true only if you participate in the public system. You can charge the patient if you do not participate in the public option.

You can be arrested for this in the US too, but we call it "insurance fraud"

Posted: 9/19/2009 8:07:40 PM EDT

[#39]

Quoted:
Also I just want to point out to people claiming that doctors will all stay home if there is UHC a couple basic facts:

1) Nobody has provided any evidence of any figures showing exactly how much takehome salary doctors will forgo (or even if they will see a reduction in takehome pay) under any of the plans under consideration

2) Doctors who don't want to work for a public system have the option of working privately in most any UHC system, and the plan under consideration is a plan to force people to buy health insurance anyways.

3) What people claim they will do in a push poll is usually much different than what they will do when it actually comes down to it

4) Doctors/hospitals complain about how much medicare/medicaid reimburse, but they take it anyways for various reasons related to maintaining their businesses, from customer relations to charity, to volume considerations.

canada has a doctor shortage....

Posted: 9/19/2009 8:07:44 PM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Sounds like BS. Quit and do what instead?

This. The desire to quit will end when they realize that $200k jobs don't grow on trees.

I have a friend who is a nasal surgeon, he's in his early 40's makes $500k a year and has been doing so for the last 15 years. There is no reason he has to work any more.

-JTP

I don't doubt that over time the medical profession will become a wasteland. But it won't happen overnight despite threats to quit. Some doctors will retire early, some find commercial jobs, etc. But the real effect won't be until much later when A students stop going into the profession.

The only reason that won't happen is because there is nowhere else for us docs to go. At least in other shitty systems you could come to the U.S. like the thousands of doctors that have moved from Canada.

Posted: 9/19/2009 8:09:04 PM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:

So what? What difference does it make?

It's not like government control of the healthcare system will ruin med schools (which are already heavily government subsidized/controlled). Also, the cost isn't a big deal because a lot of the doctors trained in the US and working in other countries don't pay their student loans back ever.

You are kidding, right?

It's not like government control of the healthcare system will ruin med schools (which are already heavily government subsidized/controlled).

Ok how are they subsidized/controlled by the government? You said above it was by the Doctors Union...which is right?

Let's say Obamacare makes it through and doctors leave in large numbers (over several years...retire, find other fields, etc). Who is going to replace them? The foreign doctors (that don't pay back their student loans? No, in order to keep the numbers up––and because the smart guys that would have gone to Med School now go into Engineering, Business, etc...because they can make money at that with A LOT less hassles...the schools will have to drop their standards for admissions. Then it becomes..."hey, I can get into Med School with my 2.0 GPA and 22 MCAT"...and the quality of our medical profession will drop considerably.

Also, the cost isn't a big deal because a lot of the doctors trained in the US and working in other countries don't pay their student loans back ever

...how does that work?

Are they US Citizens that left the country to run away from their student loans? Or Foreign Students that (last time I checked, they can't get most Federal Loans) came, trained and left?

Do you really have any concept of US Medicine...or are they teaching that in the basic business classes you are taking?

AFARR

Edited for clarity

Posted: 9/19/2009 8:09:49 PM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:
Well they overcharge enough already they can afford to quit.

The problem with that Socialist idea is that it affects doctors initially, but eventually the gov't considers everyone as being overpaid. Let me know how that works out for you.

Posted: 9/19/2009 8:10:06 PM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:

Quoted:

So what? What difference does it make?

It's not like government control of the healthcare system will ruin med schools (which are already heavily government subsidized/controlled). Also, the cost isn't a big deal because a lot of the doctors trained in the US and working in other countries don't pay their student loans back ever.

You are kidding, right?

It's not like government control of the healthcare system will ruin med schools (which are already heavily government subsidized/controlled).

Ok how are they subsidized/controlled by the government? You said above it was by the Doctors Union...which is right?

Let's say Obamacare makes it through and doctors leave in large numbers (over several years...retire, find other fields, etc). Who is going to replace them? The foreign doctors (that don't pay back their student loans? No, in order to keep the numbers up––and because the smart guys that would have gone to Med School now go into Engineering, Business, etc...because they can make money at that with A LOT less hassles...the schools will have to drop their standards for admissions. Then it becomes..."hey, I can get into Med School with my 2.0 GPA and 22 MCAT"...and the quality of our medical profession will drop considerably.

Also, the cost isn't a big deal because a lot of the doctors trained in the US and working in other countries don't pay their student loans back ever

...how does that work?

Are they US Citizens that left the country to run away from their student loans? Or Foreign Students that (last time I checked, they can't get most Federal Loans) came, trained and left?

Do you really have any concept of US Medicine...or are they teaching that in the basic business classes you are taking?

AFARR

he hasn't taken any business classes.

Posted: 9/19/2009 8:11:09 PM EDT

[#44]

Quoted:

Quoted:
They are talking "unionizing" the health care workers..

I am considering going into anything besides what I do now..if this health care bill passes..
it is bad enough now with the way it is..Care is lacking under the private sector and will
be none-existant with gov in charge..

The VA is not the epitome of perfect health care, there are good people who work there, some of the finest, Vanderbilt Hospital is close to perfect health care.

If this health care bill passes everything is going to be the same..The Suck!

I have done quite a bit and have a DoD security clearance but I would have to think
long and hard before I went back into any kind of work that required me to have it..

Unless the money was right and I mean it would have to be Right..

I am thinking more along the lines of Pig and potato farmer but I'd be afraid they would
cut our water off..But I doubt that would happen in TN...

What do you think the AMA is? It's a union created by doctors and sponsored by the government to keep down the number of doctors eligible to practice, through licensing requirements.
It artificially affects supply and demand in the medical field to keep prices up. You never hear about that, do you.

That's because what you wrote is a lie. Only 19% of practicing doctors are members of the AMA. I have never been a member since they are a communist subversive organization. The AMA looks out for the interest of the AMA.

Posted: 9/19/2009 8:13:00 PM EDT

[#45]

Quoted:
.......

he hasn't taken any business classes.

I made the inference from another thread where he mentioned that he was taking basic business classes...

Posted: 9/19/2009 8:13:17 PM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:
...how does that work?

Are they US Citizens that left the country to run away from their student loans? Or Foreign Students that (last time I checked, they can't get most Federal Loans) came, trained and left?

Do you really have any concept of US Medicine...or are they teaching that in the basic business classes you are taking?

AFARR

A lot of them are dual citizens with family in X country.

And yes I do know healthcare, a lot of my management consulting work was healthcare, mainly dealing with hospital groups.

Quoted:

Quoted:
.......

he hasn't taken any business classes.

I made the inference from another thread where he mentioned that he was taking basic business classes...

Lol, link please?

Posted: 9/19/2009 8:15:29 PM EDT

[#47]

Quoted:

Quoted:
And as far as other first world countries with UHC, their life expectancies and many other metrics are similar to ours in most cases, or better, for half to one-third the cost.

Wrong.....life expectancy not a good measure of health care success

Here's a better one:

5 Year Cancer Survival Rates:

http://2.bp.blogspot.com/_otfwl2zc6Qc/SogD2MbDYtI/AAAAAAAAK7Q/L_qOXqW4AvQ/s400/cancer.bmp

We've covered this before...in many countries they don't consider an infant to be "alive" if born premature until they leave the hospital (dropping their REPORTED infant mortality rate), they don't have the Motor Vehicle Accidents we do, they don't have equivalent crime (violent..as in homicides, esp. due to involvement with drugs/gangs), and we are a multi-cultural society (vs. more homogeneous societies elsewhere)––all of which lower US life expectancy. Control for "Lifestyle" issues (i.e. use things like cancer survival which is pretty universal, instead of deaths from heart dz...higher in our fat society than in areas with better diets), and the US tops them.

As to "Advertising Costs"....sure, you can call a local hospital and ask what will it cost to have your appendix taken out...they can probably quote you the OR time, Surgeons/Anesthesia/Path fees, etc....but will that cost be the same if you develop a severe infection or allergic rxn (or something called "malignant hyperthermia")? No...and in a lot of the places that advertise $1000 to get your appendix out...I'm guessing you get a free body bag with your surgery if needed––-or will they just write off the $250k+ a long ICU stay will cost them?

he's an intellectual coward that will only parrot the leftist lines beamed into his tiny mind.

He does not think about population size, dynamics, etc when attempting to put an argument together. He only sees that it works and dammit, it's going to work in the US and A too.

Posted: 9/19/2009 8:16:00 PM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:

Quoted:
And then they would do what - dig ditches for 120K, go into real estate? Its not like they have a skill set that will convert to other occupations. Whatever - It takes an above average person to take a cut in the quality of life and the style of life on principle alone. I will believe it when I see it.

Any private-practice, anesthesia/trauma/surgeon MD has shown:

They are good at math.
They have people skills.
They are skilled problem-solvers.
They can think problems through.
They thrive on stress.
They have above average business skills.
Good leadership skills.
Good planning skills.
Excellent cost/risk/benefit skills.
They know how to study, integrate knowledge, and form goals and plans.

They will have no problem finding well-paying work in the private sector, especially if it remains possible for them to hold their license and still "doctor" on the side.
Business needs people like this.

Also, we all have degrees from college. I have a chemistry degree. I'm sure there would be something else I could do with a lot less stress.

Posted: 9/19/2009 8:17:18 PM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:
Also, we all have degrees from college. I have a chemistry degree. I'm sure there would be something else I could do with a lot less stress.

Go for it, and post updates on your "shrugging"

Posted: 9/19/2009 8:17:23 PM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:

Quoted:
.......

he hasn't taken any business classes.

I made the inference from another thread where he mentioned that he was taking basic business classes...

well, from his previous replies in threads dealing with business issues, he has shown that those "basic business classes" consist of coloring and making sock puppets.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - Change you can believe in: 45% of Doctors would quit if Congress passes Health Care Overhaul (Page 3 of 5)

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