Quoted: Quoted: OK I'll bite, why is it that if you are not pro-Isreal then you must be an anti-semite?  Isreal is a country founded by taking the Palestinian's land.  In Isreal you must be jewish to be a citizen, isn't that descriminatory to all other religions?  Won't even get into the whole USS lIberty incident. I ... BULLFUCKINGSHIT.  Palestine has never been a country.  The "stolen" land is the spoils of war.  Wars waged by Arabs against IsrAEL.  War LOST by Arabs in WAR.

When it comes to land, possession is 10/10ths of the law.

Before Israel GOT Israel, it belonged to the Philistines and a bunch of other nations.

Israel took it from them, the Palys got it from Israel, and now Israel got it from the  Britains, and are doing their darnedest to holdon to it.

Hint: starting your argument with multi-syllabic curse words improves the relevance and  accuracy of what you say ONLY with high school students and younger.

Quoted: And who are gonna be some of the first foreign boots on Gulf soil to help out? Do you still believe that foriegn aid doesn't build friendships in more than just strategic terms?

I'd EASILY trade all our foreign aid to other countries for all we get from all other countries.

"Avoid foreign entanglements." Know who said that? Its still the best advice.

so we get some of our money back?

Quoted: Quoted: I'll jump in:  God bless Israel. +1

+Infinity

U.S. Financial Aid To Israel: Figures, Facts, and Impact

Summary
Benefits to Israel of U.S. Aid
Since 1949 (As of November 1, 1997)

Foreign Aid Grants and Loans
$74,157,600,000

Other U.S. Aid (12.2% of Foreign Aid)
$9,047,227,200

Interest to Israel from Advanced Payments
$1,650,000,000

Grand Total
$84,854,827,200

Total Benefits per Israeli
$14,630
Cost to U.S. Taxpayers of U.S.
Aid to Israel

Grand Total
$84,854,827,200

Interest Costs Borne by U.S.
$49,936,680,000

Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers
$134,791,507,200

Total Taxpayer Cost per Israeli
$23,240

THE STRATEGIC FUNCTIONS OF U.S. AID TO ISRAEL
By Stephen Zunes

Dr. Zunes is an assistant professor in the Department of Politics at the University of San Francisco

Since 1992, the U.S. has offered Israel an additional $2 billion annually in loan guarantees. Congressional researchers have disclosed that between 1974 and 1989, $16.4 billion in U.S. military loans were converted to grants and that this was the understanding from the beginning. Indeed, all past U.S. loans to Israel have eventually been forgiven by Congress, which has undoubtedly helped Israel's often-touted claim that they have never defaulted on a U.S. government loan. U.S. policy since 1984 has been that economic assistance to Israel must equal or exceed Israel's annual debt repayment to the United States. Unlike other countries, which receive aid in quarterly installments, aid to Israel since 1982 has been given in a lump sum at the beginning of the fiscal year, leaving the U.S. government to borrow from future revenues. Israel even lends some of this money back through U.S. treasury bills and collects the additional interest.

In addition, there is the more than $1.5 billion in private U.S. funds that go to Israel annually in the form of $1 billion in private tax-deductible donations and $500 million in Israeli bonds. The ability of Americans to make what amounts to tax-deductible contributions to a foreign government, made possible through a number of Jewish charities, does not exist with any other country. Nor do these figures include short- and long-term commercial loans from U.S. banks, which have been as high as $1 billion annually in recent years.

Total U.S. aid to Israel is approximately one-third of the American foreign-aid budget, even though Israel comprises just .001 percent of the world's population and already has one of the world's higher per capita incomes. Indeed, Israel's GNP is higher than the combined GNP of Egypt, Lebanon, Syria, Jordan, the West Bank and Gaza. With a per capita income of about $14,000, Israel ranks as the sixteenth wealthiest country in the world; Israelis enjoy a higher per capita income than oil-rich Saudi Arabia and are only slightly less well-off than most Western European countries....

And...

U.S. Aid to Israel: What U.S. Taxpayer Should Know
by Tom Malthaner

This morning as I was walking down Shuhada Street in Hebron, I saw graffiti marking the newly painted storefronts and awnings. Although three months past schedule and 100 percent over budget, the renovation of Shuhada Street was finally completed this week. The project manager said the reason for the delay and cost overruns was the sabotage of the project by the Israeli settlers of the Beit Hadassah settlement complex in Hebron. They broke the street lights, stoned project workers, shot out the windows of bulldozers and other heavy equipment with pellet guns, broke paving stones before they were laid and now have defaced again the homes and shops of Palestinians with graffiti. The settlers did not want Shuhada St. opened to Palestinian traffic as was agreed to under Oslo 2. This renovation project is paid for by USAID funds and it makes me angry that my tax dollars have paid for improvements that have been destroyed by the settlers.

Most Americans are not aware how much of their tax revenue our government sends to Israel. For the fiscal year ending in September 30, 1997, the U.S. has given Israel $6.72 billion: $6.194 billion falls under Israel's foreign aid allotment and $526 million comes from agencies such as the Department of Commerce, the U.S. Information Agency and the Pentagon. The $6.72 billion figure does not include loan guarantees and annual compound interest totalling $3.122 billion the U.S. pays on money borrowed to give to Israel. It does not include the cost to U.S. taxpayers of IRS tax exemptions that donors can claim when they donate money to Israeli charities. (Donors claim approximately $1 billion in Federal tax deductions annually. This ultimately costs other U.S. tax payers $280 million to $390 million.)

When grant, loans, interest and tax deductions are added together for the fiscal year ending in September 30, 1997, our special relationship with Israel cost U.S. taxpayers over $10 billion.

Since 1949 the U.S. has given Israel a total of $83.205 billion. The interest costs borne by U.S. tax payers on behalf of Israel are $49.937 billion, thus making the total amount of aid given to Israel since 1949 $133.132 billion. This may mean that U.S. government has given more federal aid to the average Israeli citizen in a given year than it has given to the average American citizen.

http://www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

Quoted: so we get some of our money back?

Hahaha, no not really, willing to bet we are covering the bill.

Dr. Zunes is an assistant professor in the Department of Politics at the University of San Francisco

Would you believe what this man pitched? How do you survive in San Francisco unless you are a flaming liberal Anti-American?

Instead of the hurricane aid, can't we just have our $134 billion back

U.S. Financial Aid To Israel: Figures, Facts, and Impact
Summary
www.wrmea.com/html/us_aid_to_israel.htm

Benefits to Israel of U.S. Aid
Since 1949 (As of November 1, 1997)

Foreign Aid Grants and Loans
$74,157,600,000

Other U.S. Aid (12.2% of Foreign Aid)
$9,047,227,200

Interest to Israel from Advanced Payments
$1,650,000,000

Grand Total
$84,854,827,200

Total Benefits per Israeli
$14,630
Cost to U.S. Taxpayers of U.S.
Aid to Israel

Grand Total
$84,854,827,200

Interest Costs Borne by U.S.
$49,936,680,000

Total Cost to U.S. Taxpayers
$134,791,507,200

Total Taxpayer Cost per Israeli
$23,240

Quoted: Quoted: so we get some of our money back? Hahaha, no not really, willing to bet we are covering the bill.

That is the first intelligent thing I have ever heard you say.

why are you guys arguing over Israel and Palastine...???

Does any of this really matter right now...?? We have a situation in AMERICA right now that needs attention... Who cares where Israel came from...? Or Palastine...??

It just amazes me how much energy is wasted by discussions like this...

Why dont you guys do something constructive...?? Get off your asses and get something going on in your community to help our neighbors, fellow AMERICANS, that are in DESPERATE DYER STRAITS... conditions that most of you cant even imagine...

RIGHT NOW.... we need UNITY in this country... OUR people are in trouble...!!!  

get a fukin grip...!!

on the way!

Israel sending emergency supplies, volunteers to U.S. By Haaretz Service The Bush administration has accepted Israel's offers of assistance to the Hurricane Katrina relief effort, with a first shipment of supplies expected to be sent on Tuesday. Israel will send a search and rescue team, military rations and other emergency supplies to the United States to help in the aftermath of Hurricane Katrina, officials said Monday. Advertisement In the first stage, Israel is to deliver IDF-type "battle ration" field meals, preserved food, water, tents, generators, baby formula, diapers and bedding. At the same time, a team of 25 volunteer medical, search-and-rescue and mental health workers will leave for Louisiana on Tuesday. The non-governmental aid is being organized by the "Israeli Flying Aid" group. "Israel was one of the first nations to offer relief aid, if not the first," said Israeli Ambassador to Washington Danny Ayalon, citing letters from Prime Minister Ariel Sharon to President George Bush and the secretaries of state, defense, and homeland security. "Even if it will be modest aid, even if it will be symbolic aid, it is still very important. The flag at the Israeli embassy in Washington will be lowered to half-mast in memory of the victims of the disaster in line with flags throughout the United States, Ayalon said. Israeli diplomats are working on an emergency footing. "We will continue to be in contact with the administration and with the [Jewish] communities in the field," he told Israel Radio. Apart from extending aid to Jewish evacuees from New Orleans, "We were happy to locate three missing Israelis yesterday," he said. "To our sorrow, we still know of two [Israelis] missing in the Houston area."

Quoted: on the way! Israel sending emergency supplies, volunteers to U.S. By Haaretz Service Apart from extending aid to Jewish evacuees from New Orleans, "We were happy to locate three missing Israelis yesterday," he said. "To our sorrow, we still know of two [Israelis] missing in the Houston area."

So basically they sent aid and came to get their people, and prolly then get out.

I wish America were as focused.

Quoted: Quoted: on the way! Israel sending emergency supplies, volunteers to U.S. By Haaretz Service Apart from extending aid to Jewish evacuees from New Orleans, "We were happy to locate three missing Israelis yesterday," he said. "To our sorrow, we still know of two [Israelis] missing in the Houston area." So basically they sent aid and came to get their people, and prolly then get out. I wish America were as focused.

you really do reach sometimes.  
That line was just a bit over on the wrong side of the Sanity/DU-zone border.
Just cause it mentions it in teh same article, ...  why do I even bother?

ETA: The teams are not yet on the ground and those pople have already been located.  You skipped the entire middle of the article, chief.

http://www.nytimes.com/glogin?URI=www.nytimes.com/2005/08/26/nyregion/26circumcise.html&OQ=adxnnlQ3D1Q26adxnnlxQ3D1125327060-yKeJRgBTCYBc3Q51fOW0LDHw&OP=8706335Q2FQ2BQ3Bu4Q2BfgQ5CmQ3EggQ27GQ2BG22JQ2B2Q2AQ2BGrQ2BlhQ3EuQ7B(glQ2BGrQ5C(Q3EQ5CPQ20Q5C(muQ3AIQ27Q20Q5D

yeah, we're gonna stop a 3000 year old tradition cause of an article in the times.......  Heil Sulzburger! The descendants of Jews are always teh worst ones.  His family, (like most European families who are ashamed of their psat) tried theri best to become WASPs, but self-hatred goes a long way and runs deeper than any conversion.

Long before the NYTimes and long after the NYTimes is history, nothing will change.  

Quoted: yeah, we're gonna stop a 3000 year old tradition cause of an article in the times.......  Heil Sulzburger! The descendants of Jews are always teh worst ones.  His family, (like most European families who are ashamed of their psat) tried theri best to become WASPs, but self-hatred goes a long way and runs deeper than any conversion. Long before the NYTimes and long after the NYTimes is history, nothing will change.

Nothing like baby penises

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: on the way! Israel sending emergency supplies, volunteers to U.S. By Haaretz Service Apart from extending aid to Jewish evacuees from New Orleans, "We were happy to locate three missing Israelis yesterday," he said. "To our sorrow, we still know of two [Israelis] missing in the Houston area." So basically they sent aid and came to get their people, and prolly then get out. I wish America were as focused. ETA: The teams are not yet on the ground and those pople have already been located.  You skipped the entire middle of the article, chief.

I'm going on EVERY OTHER instance of how Israel runs its domestic / foreign policy.

And as I said, I highly admire it.

YOur victim mentality gets old.  

Quoted: I'm going on EVERY OTHER instance of how Israel runs its domestic / foreign policy. And as I said, I highly admire it. YOur victim mentality gets old.

You do realize what you just said right?  All I saw was "I wrote something that I made up"

Quoted: Quoted: I'm going on EVERY OTHER instance of how Israel runs its domestic / foreign policy. And as I said, I highly admire it. YOur victim mentality gets old.   You do realize what you just said right?  All I saw was "I wrote something that I made up"

You see ONLY what you want to see.

I see EVERY other historical instance of how Israel conducts their decision making - Israel first.

And I highly admire it (as in,  I wish American did the same)

Quoted: you really do reach sometimes.

It's not just sometimes.

As to the poster above that said "if it pisses off the terrorists, keep it up" I think that if for no other reason we should continue to support Israel and even increase our support.  Not to say that there aren't other reasons to do it, but absent all else, that's enough for me.  And I'm not Jewish, either.

Quoted: Quoted: you really do reach sometimes.   It's not just sometimes. .

You said you were gonna ignore me. Yet you continue following me around sniping at me.

To  bad you are not a man of your word.

Which is typical Arfcommer behaviour. Violating the CoC, even violating your own word when it suits your purposes.

Whatever. You gotta be you, which is punishment enuf.

Quoted: America first?  Heck yeah.  Israel last?  Heck no!  Is that really a Buchanan creed?

I agree.

ChapperJoe,

You cannot ignore the USS Liberty incident or how the Israel sold US tecnology (Harpy Drones) to the Chinese.  These are unforgivable transgressions, and that's coming from a fellow Jew!

Quoted: You know who your friends are when the chips are down. Germany = No Israel = Yes Italy = Yes Any other countries reporting in?

Canada GBR

Quoted: Israel… the US 'friend'… S hands Israel a red card over China By P R Kumaraswamy After months of hiatus, US-Israel tension over China has returned. This time the dispute is over Israel's desire to upgrade the Harpy assault drone that it had sold to China in the mid-1990s. The drones are capable of destroying radar stations and anti-aircraft batteries and the US fears they could upset the delicate strategic balance between China and Taiwan as well as its interests in the Asia-Pacific region. What was initially described as "repairing" later turned out to be "upgrading", thereby igniting a new controversy in bilateral relations. Citing a breach of trust and incomplete disclosure, the US reacted strongly against Israel's work on the drone. As the controversy continued, Chinese State Councilor Tang Jiaxuan visited Israel in December and invited Prime Minister Ariel Sharon to visit Beijing. This was the highest visit from China in nearly five years. There were even suggestions that contrary to American fears and misgivings, the deal would not only consolidate Sino-Israeli ties but also further American intelligence capabilities vis-a-vis China. Israel, however, eventually bowed to American dictates. After weeks of wrangling, pressure tactics and behind-the-scene negotiations, the issue was resolved. While China was keen to upgrade the Harpy assault drone, the US demanded Israel "confiscate" it. Israel settled for a compromise and, according to a senior Chinese official, returned the drone without upgrading. This, however, was not the first occasion when US-Israel relations floated into rough waters over China. Since the end of the Cold War and the disappearance of the Soviet Union, bilateral relations between the United States and Israel have been marked and marred by periodic controversies over Israel's military relations with China. Long before formal diplomatic relations were established in January 1992, both countries forged close military ties. Despite public acrimony and criticism over Israel's policy vis-a-vis the Palestinians, China found Israel to be an important player in its drive for military modernization. The US-led sanctions following the 1989 Tiananmen Square controversy merely enhanced Israel's role as the proverbial "back door" to Western technology. Likewise, Israel found China to be a prime customer, especially in the 1980s, when its lucrative arms markets in Latin America and South Africa were either drying up or becoming politically untenable. Strategically, military sales to China smoothed the political differences between the countries and eventually paved the way for Sino-Israeli normalization in January 1992. Thus, both Israel and China benefited from increased military relations. For its part, the US was also an indirect player in the military saga. While demanding its European allies continue military sanctions against China, it was indifferent toward the Sino-Israeli arms trade. Seeing the military route as a means of promoting the interests of the Jewish state, Washington was not concerned about Israel upgrading the Chinese military. Post-Cold War Chinese fever The end of the Cold War, however, altered erstwhile American indifference toward Sino-Israeli ties. It no longer needed Beijing as a counterweight to Moscow and Washington began to perceive Sino-Israeli relations, especially the military deals, as a threat to its interests in the Asia-Pacific region. The looming prospect of China emerging as a global player that could one day threaten American influence in Asia resulted in the US becoming concerned over the entire development. One could argue over the rationale or logic behind the new American obsession with the Chinese threat. Given its strong economic interests and involvement in China, one could even question its wisdom in provoking an emerging power. It is, however, undeniable that Beijing occupies a prime position in American global interests, especially its policy toward the Asia-Pacific region. As a result, with the end of the Cold War both Republicans and Democrats started viewing Sino-Israeli military ties with suspicion and periodically sought to slow down, contain and if possible scuttle any military deals between Israel and China. Unlike the past, mainstream American leadership, including those committed to strong US-Israel relations began to disapprove of Sino-Israeli military ties. In early 1992, Israel was accused of the unauthorized transfer of American technology to China; the Washington Times argued that Israel had given China technological details on the Patriot anti-missile system that was deployed in Israel during the Kuwait crisis. Despite it being a strong ally, an official team was sent to Israel to verify the allegations. While the team was unable to confirm the allegations, the political damage was significant. This was followed by charges that Israel had re-transferred US technology from the Lavi fighter program to China. The Lavi fighter plane, that was to have been developed by Israel, depended heavily upon American funding and technology. Having eventually canceled the project under intense American pressure, Israel was later accused of seeking to export the Lavi technology to China. Then came the Phalcon controversy, when Israel agreed to install the advanced early-warning systems aboard a Russian platform. Under the deal, estimated at US$1 billion, Israel was to supply four such planes to China. This raised alarms in Washington, and Israel once again came under pressure. The administration of the then President, Bill Clinton, despite its friendliness toward Israel over the peace process, argued that the Phalcon would adversely affect American strategic interests in the Asia-Pacific. At one time, Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Barak was even warned that annual American aid would be cut to express American anger and displeasure over his refusal to heed. Eventually Barak buckled, and in July 2000, right in the middle of the Camp David talks with Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat, Israel canceled the deal, apologized to Beijing and agreed to pay huge financial compensation for reneging on its commitment. In response, the US agreed to Israel's decision to sell the Phalcon to India. For its part, Israel agreed to exercise caution and exhibit transparency in its military dealings with China. Yet, Israel could not avoid using the time-tested military means to regain the trust and confidence of China. Its ability to restore Sino-Israeli relations, especially against the background of growing international criticism and isolation due to the al-Aqsa Intifada, entirely depended upon the military route. Over the years, the military dimension has become the indicator to measure Israel's relations with the outside world. For example, military sales play a pivotal role in the close ties that Israel maintains with Turkey and India. Hence, to avoid American suspicion, the Harpy upgrading was initially described as a "repair" rather than an "upgrade". Israel's strategic decision to resume military deals with Beijing appears to have boomeranged. Israeli media admits that US Under Secretary of Defense for Policy, Douglas Feith, the third-most senior official in the Pentagon, demanded the resignation of Amos Yaron, the top bureaucrat in Israel's Defense Ministry, over the Harpy controversy. However, having learned from the Phalcon controversy, all parties decided to quietly resolve the dilemma. Forgetting lessons, repeating history The continuing nature of the Sino-Israeli-US controversy underscores a number of important but often forgotten lessons. Astonishingly, Israel is yet to recognize and reconcile with the negative consequences of the end of the Cold War. It continues to dwell on the benefits of the new world order whereby countries such as Syria are forced to seek a negotiated political settlement with the Jewish state. It is rarely recognized in Israel that the disappearance of the "evil empire" also meant Israel losing some of its relative importance to the United States. This results in Israel not appreciating the new American concerns vis-a-vis China and its potential threats to American interests in the Pacific and elsewhere. Moreover, by focusing on the non-American nature of its military exports to China, Israel is unable to comprehend the real issues involved. The problem is not whether they contain technology supported or funded by the US; indeed, both the Phalcon and Harpy programs do not appear to contain any American component or technology. Nevertheless, Israel's dependence upon the United States has limited its foreign-policy leverage when dealing with countries that Washington has strategic concerns over. This exposes Israel's vulnerability. The controversies surrounding Sino-Israeli military ties and Israel eventually yielding to American demands also undermine Israel's ability as a reliable arms supplier. At one level, Israel's ability to promote its foreign policy vis-a-vis the rest of the world largely depends upon it being a reliable arms supplier. At the same, arms supplies to China bring Israel into a conflict situation vis-a-vis the US. Conclusion Israel is not the only country that faces growing American demands on strategic issues. Europe is facing the American music over the possible renewal of military sales to China, India over its burgeoning energy ties with Iran, and China over its relations with North Korea. Israel, unfortunately, is more vulnerable than most. Therefore, so long as it depends upon Washington for political support, economic largess and strategic backing, Israel's ability to pursue an independent arms export policy toward China will continue to be limited and circumspect. . http://www.atimes.com/atimes/China/GE24Ad02.html

Said it before, will say it again, We've given the Chinese more than Israel has.And there's  a reason.  We're NEVER GOING TO FIGHT THEM!!!!!  Forgetting the fact that they don't need a war to become more powerful than us, put it this way: They are the largest owner of American Bonds.  Don't you get it?  China is NOT the 'next Soviet Union'.  Thank G-d there were neocons (tha'ts right - Jews) in the Pentagon who were able to overcome Rummy's China-itis and get the President on track in Iraq and soon Iran.  China is not only not our enemy (militarily) but is one of the greatest de-facto allies we can have because our ecnomic systems are so dependant on each other.  But I digress.  More american military goods have come to China through our hands, than through Israeli ones.  

and your article's source is HARDLY one I'd base an argument on, or post alone without comment.

Quoted: Said it before, will say it again, We've given the Chinese more than Israel has.And there's  a reason.  We're NEVER GOING TO FIGHT THEM!!!!!  Forgetting the fact that they don't need a war to become more powerful than us, put it this way: They are the largest owner of American Bonds.  Don't you get it?  China is NOT the 'next Soviet Union'.  Thank G-d there were neocons (tha'ts right - Jews) in the Pentagon who were able to overcome Rummy's China-itis and get the President on track in Iraq and soon Iran.  China is not only not our enemy (militarily) but is one of the greatest de-facto allies we can have because our ecnomic systems are so dependant on each other.  But I digress.  More american military goods have come to China through our hands, than through Israeli ones.

France and Germany were each other's largest trading partners in 1913.  There was a great article widely reprinted from 1913 that declared that war between the great powers was now impossible because of how economically interconnected they were.

The future is pretty hard to know.  

ChapperJoe,

Your retort is paper thin.  Please discount the actions of a certain previous President.  China is openly hostile and that is a fact.

Justin

Quoted: and your article's source is HARDLY one I'd base an argument on, or post alone without comment.

So Israel was booted off the F35 program for some other reason, huh? Or joint work on the Arrow 2 was suspended for reasons other than Israeli sales to China? To hell with those of you that bend over backwards to apoligize for Israeli behavior at the expense of America.

As for sending aid, that nice and all, but Iran, Cuba, and Venezuala (among many others) also offered all sorts of aid.

Quoted: ChapperJoe, Your retort is paper thin.  Please discount the actions of a certain previous President.  China is openly hostile and that is a fact. Justin

even in my school the notion of a military battle between american and china is somwhere between a plan to save us from an asteroid by landing on it and a plan to drill to the middle of the earth to restart the core.

itmakes absolutely no sense for either side and would be the ruin of both.  You are lacking in some very basic areas of international security.

Quoted: even in my school the notion of a military battle between american and china is somwhere between a plan to save us from an asteroid by landing on it and a plan to drill to the middle of the earth to restart the core. itmakes absolutely no sense for either side and would be the ruin of both.  You are lacking in some very basic areas of international security.

So now Israeli high-tech weapon sales to China are OK because you think that we probably won't go to war with them?

Quoted: Quoted: and your article's source is HARDLY one I'd base an argument on, or post alone without comment. So Israel was booted off the F35 program for some other reason, huh? Or joint work on the Arrow 2 was suspended for reasons other than Israeli sales to China? To hell with those of you that bend over backwards to apoligize for Israeli behavior at the expense of America. As for sending aid, that nice and all, but Iran, Cuba, and Venezuala (among many others) also offered all sorts of aid.

Oh yeah, cause throwing Israel off of a military problem is really gonna hurt Israel riiiiiiiiight. Israel gets the JSF either way, except all of you get an inferior model without Israeli hardware (think it was the helmet?).  And the Arrow 2 is deployed buddy.  joint work done.  AND nobodys saying that ISrael doesn't have defense ties to China, almost every country in teh world does, except Mauritania and Luxemburg probably.  My comment was about the nature of your source.  do some real research instead of just goolging.

Quoted:  Isreal is a country founded by taking the Palestinian's land.

Well heck, I guess that Jewish carpenter did not really die over there some 2,000 years ago, eh?

Quoted: Oh yeah, cause throwing Israel off of a military problem is really gonna hurt Israel riiiiiiiiight. Israel gets the JSF either way, except all of you get an inferior model without Israeli hardware (think it was the helmet?).

So China then would get the version with the helmet? Hell, Israel provided all sorts of help from the Lavi project to help China with the J-10, so why not, right?

And the Arrow 2 is deployed buddy.  joint work done.

Deployed, yes. Work done? No.

AND nobodys saying that ISrael doesn't have defense ties to China, almost every country in teh world does, except Mauritania and Luxemburg probably.

No, not every country is trying to sell China high-tech AEW and fighter systems.

It is disgusting to see those of you who claim to be pro-American go through contortions to defend Israeli sales to China, or to try to wave them off as unimportant. The Pentagon thinks they were damned important; what greater source of information do you have that trumps the Pentagon?

Quoted: Quoted: even in my school the notion of a military battle between american and china is somwhere between a plan to save us from an asteroid by landing on it and a plan to drill to the middle of the earth to restart the core. itmakes absolutely no sense for either side and would be the ruin of both.  You are lacking in some very basic areas of international security. So now Israeli high-tech weapon sales to China are OK because you think that we probably won't go to war with them?

no we DEFNITELY won't go to war with them. Ever.  Period.  There is a greater chance of you getting elected to the Senate and enacting anti-gun legislation after undergoing a sex change and marrying Ted Kennedy.  And that's not a barb, jus ta general arfkom, never gonna happen scenario!  And yes that is my logic.  The present-day military dynamic in southeast asia completely and totally acts inward - the way it has for millenia - not outward.  

And israel will stop dealing with china ass soon as India asks her too!  

Also, nothing is more important to the Israeli hi-level officials then good relations with the US.  Our government could stop the Israel/China cooperation in a heartbeat if it wanted to.  And if you don't believ that then you have to take your tin foil hat off, skip the cross-burning tonight and take a long hard took at Israel's economic situation now.  Nothing is worth risking the massive US aid package that is dependant on US congressional support.  And this China deal is NOTHING compared to their dealings with India.  and even that is nothing compared to the financial aid we give to israel.  Just like China threatening the US military, we have to put our thinking caps on here folks.  It makes NO sense fo rIsrael to do something that would threaten the US aid package.  If the cooperation Is indeed continuing then someone in the hi-levels of the US gov't wants it to.  

And of COURSE the military wants Israel out of their programs.  Without China, they'd have no enemy.  And so China is their enemy.  And dealing with the enemy will not endear you to soldiers and marines.  Problem is, China's not the enemy and many int eh White House know it.

Quoted: The Pentagon thinks they were damned important

exactly, the PENTAGON thinks they're the enemy.  that's the whole problem.  Gotta justifiy huge budgets with some peer-competitor.

ALL of which is a distraction to the threads original intent.  That american forigen aid to israel fosters a link between the countries that transcends nearly all others.  That link is visible in this instance in the speed with which an Israeli aid offer was offered, accepted and started.  ISraeli's care about american wellbeing and americans care about israeli wellbeing.  Fortunately, Buchananists are a minority in AMerica.  For a reason.  OR rather, for lack OF reason.

Quoted: You know who your friends are when the chips are down. Germany = No Israel = Yes Italy = Yes Any other countries reporting in?

Wrong, Germany has sent help. In fact a bunch of countries have.

February 14, 2003 - Israel brought in to F35 program with Elbit helmet.  

BAE is secondary helmet designer with a binocular design off of their helicopter systems, while Israel was and still is the primary helmet designer supplier and has the undisputed best combination in the world with the elbit helmet and python 5 AAM.

Annyhow, a couple of weeks ago, the two tightest allies ever were able to convince their defense structures to play nice after all.

you google-experts need to read newspapers more instead of googling everything.  You end up finding articles like this one.  In AMERICAN newspapers!

By Bill Gertz THE WASHINGTON TIMES August 17, 2005 The Pentagon yesterday announced it will resume arms technology transfers to Israel that were curbed as a result of Tel Aviv's weapons sales to China.    The United States and Israel reached an understanding that "is designed to remedy problems of the past that seriously affected the technology security relationship between [U.S. and Israeli] defense establishments and which begins to restore confidence in the technology security area," the Pentagon said in a joint statement with Israel.    Additional steps are expected in the next months that will "restore confidence fully," the statement said.    Bryan Whitman, a Pentagon spokesman, said the understanding is a "step forward" but that Israel must do more before technology sharing is restored completely.    The understanding creates "a process for consultation" between the U.S. and Israeli governments on arms sales, he said.    Specifically, Israel has agreed to adopt controls outlined in the 1996 Wassenaar Arrangement on Export Controls for Conventional Arms and Dual-Use Goods and Technologies.    Israel also agreed to "reorganize" Defense Ministry export controls and create an intergovernment arms-export control system, he said.    "This also provides for a consultative process that allows the U.S. and Israel to reach a common understanding with respect to arms sales to China," Mr. Whitman said.    In June, the Pentagon slashed weapons and technology transfers to Israel because of Israel's plan to upgrade Harpy anti-radar flying bombs sold earlier to China.    The ban included limitations on a range of defense programs, including Israeli participation in the Joint Strike Fighter.    The Harpy, an unpiloted aircraft with a bomb that homes in on radar, was first sold to China in 2001. In April, China asked Israel to upgrade the drones, triggering U.S. limits on military cooperation with Israel.    Defense officials first spotted the drones during large-scale Chinese military exercises opposite Taiwan in 2003.

PAT BUCHANAN FOR PRESIDENT!

One more thing... You think that just cause I'm jewish I'd defend an action by Israel that could potentially harm my country?  THAT's anti-semetic, and THAT's why that accusation comes up so much when talking with Buchananists.  I'm Jewish folks, NOT israeli.  

The best ally money can buy.

Quoted: Quoted: ChapperJoe, Your retort is paper thin.  Please discount the actions of a certain previous President.  China is openly hostile and that is a fact. Justin even in my school the notion of a military battle between american and china is somwhere between a plan to save us from an asteroid by landing on it and a plan to drill to the middle of the earth to restart the core. itmakes absolutely no sense for either side and would be the ruin of both.  You are lacking in some very basic areas of international security.

Sure...

Even as the US seeks to engage China, the fact of the matter is that China views the US as its primary opponent, and has built much of its foreign policy around curbing and weakening the US globally.

www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?pagename=JPost/JPArticle/ShowFull&cid=1116210022990


Why don't you take your own advice to heart.

do some real research instead of just goolging.

Just a freindly word of advice, I wouldn't challenge Andy (vito113) on matters of this nature.  He is THE subject matter expert.  

For the record...



Regards,

Justin

Quoted: exactly, the PENTAGON thinks they're the enemy.  that's the whole problem.  Gotta justifiy huge budgets with some peer-competitor.

Right. I am supposed to take the word of the pro-Israel lobby over that of the Pentagon? Sorry kid, I am pro-American. Fuck those who sell secrets that harm us.

Quoted: Quoted: February 14, 2003 - Israel brought in to F35 program with Elbit helmet.   BAE is secondary helmet designer with a binocular design off of their helicopter systems, while Israel was and still is the primary helmet designer supplier and has the undisputed best combination in the world with the elbit helmet and python 5 AAM. Annyhow, a couple of weeks ago, the two tightest allies ever were able to convince their defense structures to play nice after all. you google-experts need to read newspapers more instead of googling everything.  You end up finding articles like this one.  In AMERICAN newspapers! Helicopter system?… the BAE helmet is off the Eurofighter Typhoon… Looks like LM decieded something better came along and wanted in… BAE Wins Helmet Display Contract Wednesday, September 8, 2004 ROCHESTER, England, Sept. 8 -- BAE Systems Platform Solutions has been awarded a contract by Lockheed Martin for the initial design of an alternate helmet-mounted display (HMD) system for the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter aircraft. The helmet design is based on the design of the Eurofighter Typhoon binocular helmet, which is in development.   The F-35 JSF alternate HMD will be a high-resolution binocular system driven by powerful processor and graphics processor modules. The head tracker is a high-speed, high-accuracy, low-latency optical system. The helmet will be designed to display "virtual HUD" symbology and video imagery from F-35 sensors and will be compatible with helmet-mounted, high-resolution night-vision cameras.   The Eurofighter helmet that serves as the basis for the F-35 design recently passed a series of tests, including impact and penetration to UK and European standards, 600-plus-knot windblast and 600-plus-knot ejection.   Of three aircraft types being developed under the multinational Joint Strike Fighter program, the UK Royal Navy and Royal Air Force will fly the short take-off and vertical landing version, designated F-35B.   For more information, visit: www.na.baesystems.com

you have reading problems?  this was only in teh first sentence:
BAE Systems Platform Solutions has been awarded a contract by Lockheed Martin for the initial design of an alternate helmet-mounted display (HMD) system for the F-35 Joint Strike Fighter aircraft.

Quoted: One more thing... You think that just cause I'm jewish I'd defend an action by Israel that could potentially harm my country?  THAT's anti-semetic, and THAT's why that accusation comes up so much when talking with Buchananists.  I'm Jewish folks, NOT israeli.

We don't think that, rather, you have proven it.

ETA:  It's Jewish with a capital "J."  (It's about respect, not spelling.)