Quoted: Asset forfeiture takes the profit out of crime and that is a good thing.  LEOs should be looking at where the money went when they arrest someone who made a profit through criminal means.

And it puts the profit into law enforcement.

How many agencies do you thing really budget for Corvettes or H2s with fancy decal kits to be stragically parked during tactical PR ops?

I have personally known a LT and SGT who fought over a seized car for a take home squad.

Good, the anti-gun, pro JBT segment of Arfcom has made it to the thread.

Quoted: Good, the anti-gun, pro JBT segment of Arfcom has made it to the thread.

Yep but were missing someone ::cough:: dave_a

Does this really surprise anyone here?

These pukes have been shitting all over our rights since their inception.

Quoted: This needs sent to Lou Dobbs

+1.

Do it.

Quoted: Quoted: I don't want to see this issue dropped and forgotten about.  I want to see whoever is responsible be held accountable for spending $36000 on 2000 engraved Leathermans @ $18 a piece.  We as tax payers paid for the ATF to flaunt the fact they don't believe in the fundamental principal of presumption on innocence. Can we tack this and maybe organize something?  I've never been good at organizing anything but I'll do what I can.  What is the best way to contact the conservative media?  I think our best bet would be Glenn Beck.  What would get his attention, letters, e-mail or phone? Once this gets out it will even piss off some of the more complacent gun owners.  No one likes the man telling him what to do, but when the man revels in it, people push back.  If you have any ideas please post them or send IMs. Thanks, Adam This is not fraud, waste, or abuse.  That is a very very good price for a leatherman tool.  It is cheaper than you can buy one at the store.   You can whine all you want but at the end of the day you will be wasting your time.  There is no legitimate reason not to buy leatherman tools for LEOs.   You end up making gun owners look like jerks to the people that make gun laws.  Good plan

Are all of your synaptic connections not firing?  Have some coffee and get back to me.  I don't give a shit that they have Leatherman.  Hell by them what ever tool will get the job done.  Just don't have it engraved with bullshit contrary to the basis of our justice system.
This is worse than the people that wanted to come down on the Leatherman company when they aren't even involved

BTT with this little nugget from a study in the Pittsburg Post-Gazette:

In about 80% of civil asset forfeiture cases, a criminal conviction was NEVER obtained.

Yup. Not enough evidence to prove any crime, but people still lost their property.

Rep and Senators have been written.  Here are the web forms:

Senators

Representatives


No excuses not to write them now.

Quoted: Sweet, the last ATF class I was in just gave us engraved knives.  Next time...Leatherman tools.   I gotta sign up for more training.   You guys are laughable for thinking there is something wrong with a law enforcement officer needing a leatherman tool.  I use my leatherman constantly.   As far as forfeiture laws...they take the profit out of crime.  When you catch a bank robber running out of the bank with a bag of money, he doesn't get to keep the money once he gets out of jail...same deal with asset forfeiture.  You acquire money through illegal means, you lose that money or what was purchased with it.

What we have team members that are trolls now?  
OK fine Fuck it.  You guys want some nice Danner Boots and we can have a custom sole made up that says "YOUR FACE GOES HERE" in the tread?

That would be nice, right?
Let me know if there's anything else you want engraved or if you want some statues for you main offices.  Think agent in fool mall ninja gear standing on a mountain of dead gun dealers.  Get back to me.

Back to page 1.

tagged for reading later

Sigh....

Back from page 3.

In related news, I understand they also ordered flashbang grenades with "Because No-Knocks Are Fun" engraved on them.

On the first link was the phone number of the guy in purchasing.

As I am skeptical by nature, I called him up to confirm that the PO was in fact legit, and not something from Alex Jones' fertile mind.

Of course I got his voice mail, so I left a message. I am pretty good at getting folks to return my call, and he did.

He confirmed that " always think forfeiture" is what they intentionally had engraved on their multi tools.

At my expense.

I jokingly/affectionately refer to the arfcom LEO members, ATF included, as JBTs...

but this is the real deal!

How could they...

how dare they....

Off to call my congressman... and the Manchurian Candidate.

JBT = jack booted thugs?

Quoted: JBT = jack booted thugs?

Correct

Quoted: Quoted: JBT = jack booted thugs? Correct

New one:

ATF - Assholes Taking (your) Firearms

Quoted: Quoted: Sweet, the last ATF class I was in just gave us engraved knives.  Next time...Leatherman tools.   I gotta sign up for more training.   You guys are laughable for thinking there is something wrong with a law enforcement officer needing a leatherman tool.  I use my leatherman constantly.   As far as forfeiture laws...they take the profit out of crime.  When you catch a bank robber running out of the bank with a bag of money, he doesn't get to keep the money once he gets out of jail...same deal with asset forfeiture.  You acquire money through illegal means, you lose that money or what was purchased with it.   What we have team members that are trolls now?   OK fine Fuck it.  You guys want some nice Danner Boots and we can have a custom sole made up that says "YOUR FACE GOES HERE" in the tread?

Took every f*king word right out of my mouth.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I don't want to see this issue dropped and forgotten about.  I want to see whoever is responsible be held accountable for spending $36000 on 2000 engraved Leathermans @ $18 a piece.  We as tax payers paid for the ATF to flaunt the fact they don't believe in the fundamental principal of presumption on innocence. Can we tack this and maybe organize something?  I've never been good at organizing anything but I'll do what I can.  What is the best way to contact the conservative media?  I think our best bet would be Glenn Beck.  What would get his attention, letters, e-mail or phone? Once this gets out it will even piss off some of the more complacent gun owners.  No one likes the man telling him what to do, but when the man revels in it, people push back.  If you have any ideas please post them or send IMs. Thanks, Adam This is not fraud, waste, or abuse.  That is a very very good price for a leatherman tool.  It is cheaper than you can buy one at the store.   You can whine all you want but at the end of the day you will be wasting your time.  There is no legitimate reason not to buy leatherman tools for LEOs.   You end up making gun owners look like jerks to the people that make gun laws.  Good plan CIVIL forfeiture, which is the overwhelming proponderance of forfeiture cases in the US, should be outlawed. I am fine with forfeiture after criminal conviction. But the asset forfeiture the ATF goons are talking about is civil, and prior to any criminal indictment, let alone conviction, in many cases. BTW, When I wrote my letters to my Senators and Representative, I did not even mention guns. I couched it in terms of wanton waste of tax money and abusive practices that corrupt the agencies that engage in it. That is nowhere near how the asset forfeiture process works.   You are misrepresenting the entire scope of forfeiture laws.  The assets are frozen, not seized and after adjudication can be forfeited.  The agency has to clearly prove that those specific assets were purchased with illegally obtained funds or used in the crime.  You have to indict the actual assets... Asset forfeiture takes the profit out of crime and that is a good thing.  LEOs should be looking at where the money went when they arrest someone who made a profit through criminal means.   I know fully how civil asset forfeiture works. It is the exact oppposite of how criminal forfeiture works. In a civil forefeiture, the burden of proving the asset was NOT the proceeds of criminal activity is on the owner. In other words, guilt is assumed and it is up to the person whose assets were taken to PROVE that they obained them with funds derived from legal activies. In thousands of cases in the past 20 years people have had their assets taken, but were NEVER convicted of any crime. In about 80% of civil asset forfeitures, a criminal conviction is NEVER obtained. Perhaps the most damning indictment of our current civil forfeiture process is that, according to 18 U.S.C. §981(a)(2)), innocence is NOT a defense in a civil case. Yes, you read that correctly. The government can end up with a not guilty verdict on the criminal charge that precipitated the seizure and you cannot use that not guilty verdict as evidence in your civil proceeding to retrieve your property. I am really not shocked that you would be defending the indefensible. I would actually be shocked if you had come down on the other side of this issue.

So, it seems that what's being implied here is that you'd be suprised if LEO's came down against civil forfieture or flaunting their authority over other citizens?

Prepare to be shocked, then.

I'm a full-time LEO in Colorado, and before I got this job, I was completely in favor of civil forfieture.  100% in favor.  Then I got the opportunity to see it in action.  I figured we'd be seizing the vehicles used in the commission of drug crimes, where substantial quantities of narcotics were being transported.  Not even close.  In my opinion, civil forfieture allows less than completely ethical LE agencies to get around the requirement that fines and other punishments be finite-that is, specifically defined.  If you break the law, and you're poor, then your ass is goign to prison.  That's all there is to it.  On the other hand, if you break the law and ae well-off, you just might be able to cut a sweet deal and not even pled guilty.

Here's how I have PERSONALLY SEEN this work.  Accused has nice assets.  Accused is offered a total walk if he agrees not to contest forfeiture action.  Why?  Well, the agency gets the assets.  They don't have to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, or even by a preponderance of the evidence.  Cha-ching-it's payday!  And of course, this makes perfect sense if you're the accused-no conviction, no prison time followed by a mandatory parole tail, and it's off to re-establish your criminal enterprise somewherre else.  No prior conviction will show up when your riminal background is checked, so you're home free.

I love my job.  Not many people can say that they make a difference every day.  It's one of the big reasons I work for a small agency.  You can see how your hard work positively benefits members of the community.  But mark my words-WE HAVE GONE TOO FAR.  Almost everything is a felony these days, and everyone clamors for us to "get tough on crime".  Our jail is cram packed, to the point where it actually CLOSED last year (that's right-jail's closed, sorry...here's your FELONY SUMMONS).  The kids I see coming into the profession these days are interseted in career advancement, fellow citizens be damned, and look at everyone as if they are potential crack dealing child molesters.  I'm applying to grad schools as we speak, because I'll tell you, this job is not what it used to be, and it's only getting worse.  

In my opinion, we got off track when we started to use the criminal code to ensure that we wouldn't be offended.  I believe we should have two classes of crimes-crimes against persons and crimes against property.  That's it.  Most of what I do consists of either armed tax collecting or preventing people from harming themselves-by throwing them in prison, where they can be beated, sodomized, and learn an actual criminal trade like auto theft or burglary.  Whenever I hear one of my neighbors say, "there ought to be a law", I ask them-is it worth having us show up and shoot someone over?  Because bottom line is, when we show up, that's always possible.  Our mere presence might be just what is needed to push a normally law-abiding person over the edge-so is his tall grass or junked car really a law enforcement matter?  

And why, pray tell, is our uniformed presnce so offensive?  Daily, I read about misconduct on the part of fellow officers-some of you might have kept up with the Shawna Nelson trial, involving the two "premier" LE agencies of this area.  We're all assured that this behavior is not representative of the LE community as a whole-and it's not.  Mere adultery is FUCKING TAME.  Much worse things go on here, and I suspect in most areas.  The public doesn't trust us, and I can see why they don't.  Add to all of that this assclown from the ATF ordering his "always think forfieture" trinket, and other such inappropriate advertisments of ass-hattery, and it's no wonder my profession is thought of the way it is.

End of rant.  Fuck it.

It is a shame we have allowed such a anti-freedom organization like this to exist in our government. A fucking shame.

Quoted: End of rant.  Fuck it.

Thank you for being one of the good guys, bud. My hat is off to you.

Really.

Quoted: So, it seems that what's being implied here is that you'd be suprised if LEO's came down against civil forfieture or flaunting their authority over other citizens? Prepare to be shocked, then. I'm a full-time LEO in Colorado, and before I got this job, I was completely in favor of civil forfieture.  100% in favor.  Then I got the opportunity to see it in action.  I figured we'd be seizing the vehicles used in the commission of drug crimes, where substantial quantities of narcotics were being transported.  Not even close.  In my opinion, civil forfieture allows less than completely ethical LE agencies to get around the requirement that fines and other punishments be finite-that is, specifically defined.  If you break the law, and you're poor, then your ass is goign to prison.  That's all there is to it.  On the other hand, if you break the law and ae well-off, you just might be able to cut a sweet deal and not even pled guilty. Here's how I have PERSONALLY SEEN this work.  Accused has nice assets.  Accused is offered a total walk if he agrees not to contest forfeiture action.  Why?  Well, the agency gets the assets.  They don't have to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, or even by a preponderance of the evidence.  Cha-ching-it's payday!  And of course, this makes perfect sense if you're the accused-no conviction, no prison time followed by a mandatory parole tail, and it's off to re-establish your criminal enterprise somewherre else.  No prior conviction will show up when your riminal background is checked, so you're home free. I love my job.  Not many people can say that they make a difference every day.  It's one of the big reasons I work for a small agency.  You can see how your hard work positively benefits members of the community.  But mark my words-WE HAVE GONE TOO FAR.  Almost everything is a felony these days, and everyone clamors for us to "get tough on crime".  Our jail is cram packed, to the point where it actually CLOSED last year (that's right-jail's closed, sorry...here's your FELONY SUMMONS).  The kids I see coming into the profession these days are interseted in career advancement, fellow citizens be damned, and look at everyone as if they are potential crack dealing child molesters.  I'm applying to grad schools as we speak, because I'll tell you, this job is not what it used to be, and it's only getting worse.   In my opinion, we got off track when we started to use the criminal code to ensure that we wouldn't be offended.  I believe we should have two classes of crimes-crimes against persons and crimes against property.  That's it.  Most of what I do consists of either armed tax collecting or preventing people from harming themselves-by throwing them in prison, where they can be beated, sodomized, and learn an actual criminal trade like auto theft or burglary.  Whenever I hear one of my neighbors say, "there ought to be a law", I ask them-is it worth having us show up and shoot someone over?  Because bottom line is, when we show up, that's always possible.  Our mere presence might be just what is needed to push a normally law-abiding person over the edge-so is his tall grass or junked car really a law enforcement matter?   And why, pray tell, is our uniformed presnce so offensive?  Daily, I read about misconduct on the part of fellow officers-some of you might have kept up with the Shawna Nelson trial, involving the two "premier" LE agencies of this area.  We're all assured that this behavior is not representative of the LE community as a whole-and it's not.  Mere adultery is FUCKING TAME.  Much worse things go on here, and I suspect in most areas.  The public doesn't trust us, and I can see why they don't.  Add to all of that this assclown from the ATF ordering his "always think forfieture" trinket, and other such inappropriate advertisments of ass-hattery, and it's no wonder my profession is thought of the way it is. End of rant.  Fuck it.

I was not directing my comment at law enforcement in general, but at FedDC. He has, shall we say, a reputation on this site.

Quoted: Quoted: End of rant.  Fuck it. Thank you for being one of the good guys, bud. My hat is off to you. Really.

Agreed.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I don't want to see this issue dropped and forgotten about.  I want to see whoever is responsible be held accountable for spending $36000 on 2000 engraved Leathermans @ $18 a piece.  We as tax payers paid for the ATF to flaunt the fact they don't believe in the fundamental principal of presumption on innocence. Can we tack this and maybe organize something?  I've never been good at organizing anything but I'll do what I can.  What is the best way to contact the conservative media?  I think our best bet would be Glenn Beck.  What would get his attention, letters, e-mail or phone? Once this gets out it will even piss off some of the more complacent gun owners.  No one likes the man telling him what to do, but when the man revels in it, people push back.  If you have any ideas please post them or send IMs. Thanks, Adam This is not fraud, waste, or abuse.  That is a very very good price for a leatherman tool.  It is cheaper than you can buy one at the store.   You can whine all you want but at the end of the day you will be wasting your time.  There is no legitimate reason not to buy leatherman tools for LEOs.   You end up making gun owners look like jerks to the people that make gun laws.  Good plan CIVIL forfeiture, which is the overwhelming proponderance of forfeiture cases in the US, should be outlawed. I am fine with forfeiture after criminal conviction. But the asset forfeiture the ATF goons are talking about is civil, and prior to any criminal indictment, let alone conviction, in many cases. BTW, When I wrote my letters to my Senators and Representative, I did not even mention guns. I couched it in terms of wanton waste of tax money and abusive practices that corrupt the agencies that engage in it. That is nowhere near how the asset forfeiture process works.   You are misrepresenting the entire scope of forfeiture laws.  The assets are frozen, not seized and after adjudication can be forfeited.  The agency has to clearly prove that those specific assets were purchased with illegally obtained funds or used in the crime.  You have to indict the actual assets... Asset forfeiture takes the profit out of crime and that is a good thing.  LEOs should be looking at where the money went when they arrest someone who made a profit through criminal means.   I know fully how civil asset forfeiture works. It is the exact oppposite of how criminal forfeiture works. In a civil forefeiture, the burden of proving the asset was NOT the proceeds of criminal activity is on the owner. In other words, guilt is assumed and it is up to the person whose assets were taken to PROVE that they obained them with funds derived from legal activies. In thousands of cases in the past 20 years people have had their assets taken, but were NEVER convicted of any crime. In about 80% of civil asset forfeitures, a criminal conviction is NEVER obtained. Perhaps the most damning indictment of our current civil forfeiture process is that, according to 18 U.S.C. §981(a)(2)), innocence is NOT a defense in a civil case. Yes, you read that correctly. The government can end up with a not guilty verdict on the criminal charge that precipitated the seizure and you cannot use that not guilty verdict as evidence in your civil proceeding to retrieve your property. I am really not shocked that you would be defending the indefensible. I would actually be shocked if you had come down on the other side of this issue. So, it seems that what's being implied here is that you'd be suprised if LEO's came down against civil forfieture or flaunting their authority over other citizens? Prepare to be shocked, then. I'm a full-time LEO in Colorado, and before I got this job, I was completely in favor of civil forfieture.  100% in favor.  Then I got the opportunity to see it in action.  I figured we'd be seizing the vehicles used in the commission of drug crimes, where substantial quantities of narcotics were being transported.  Not even close.  In my opinion, civil forfieture allows less than completely ethical LE agencies to get around the requirement that fines and other punishments be finite-that is, specifically defined.  If you break the law, and you're poor, then your ass is goign to prison.  That's all there is to it.  On the other hand, if you break the law and ae well-off, you just might be able to cut a sweet deal and not even pled guilty. Here's how I have PERSONALLY SEEN this work.  Accused has nice assets.  Accused is offered a total walk if he agrees not to contest forfeiture action.  Why?  Well, the agency gets the assets.  They don't have to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, or even by a preponderance of the evidence.  Cha-ching-it's payday!  And of course, this makes perfect sense if you're the accused-no conviction, no prison time followed by a mandatory parole tail, and it's off to re-establish your criminal enterprise somewherre else.  No prior conviction will show up when your riminal background is checked, so you're home free. I love my job.  Not many people can say that they make a difference every day.  It's one of the big reasons I work for a small agency.  You can see how your hard work positively benefits members of the community.  But mark my words-WE HAVE GONE TOO FAR.  Almost everything is a felony these days, and everyone clamors for us to "get tough on crime".  Our jail is cram packed, to the point where it actually CLOSED last year (that's right-jail's closed, sorry...here's your FELONY SUMMONS).  The kids I see coming into the profession these days are interseted in career advancement, fellow citizens be damned, and look at everyone as if they are potential crack dealing child molesters.  I'm applying to grad schools as we speak, because I'll tell you, this job is not what it used to be, and it's only getting worse.   In my opinion, we got off track when we started to use the criminal code to ensure that we wouldn't be offended.  I believe we should have two classes of crimes-crimes against persons and crimes against property.  That's it.  Most of what I do consists of either armed tax collecting or preventing people from harming themselves-by throwing them in prison, where they can be beated, sodomized, and learn an actual criminal trade like auto theft or burglary.  Whenever I hear one of my neighbors say, "there ought to be a law", I ask them-is it worth having us show up and shoot someone over?  Because bottom line is, when we show up, that's always possible.  Our mere presence might be just what is needed to push a normally law-abiding person over the edge-so is his tall grass or junked car really a law enforcement matter?   And why, pray tell, is our uniformed presnce so offensive?  Daily, I read about misconduct on the part of fellow officers-some of you might have kept up with the Shawna Nelson trial, involving the two "premier" LE agencies of this area.  We're all assured that this behavior is not representative of the LE community as a whole-and it's not.  Mere adultery is FUCKING TAME.  Much worse things go on here, and I suspect in most areas.  The public doesn't trust us, and I can see why they don't.  Add to all of that this assclown from the ATF ordering his "always think forfieture" trinket, and other such inappropriate advertisments of ass-hattery, and it's no wonder my profession is thought of the way it is. End of rant.  Fuck it.

THIS is one of the good ones!   Thank  you for your candor and I know you've got a hard fucking job.  If you're watching the Nelson clusterfuck then you're probably in my area.   PM me and lets make plans so I can buy you a beer.  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: End of rant.  Fuck it. Thank you for being one of the good guys, bud. My hat is off to you. Really. Agreed.

Thanks, gents-see, we're not all assholes, some of us just play assholes on TV.  

Quoted: So, it seems that what's being implied here is that you'd be suprised if LEO's came down against civil forfieture or flaunting their authority over other citizens? Prepare to be shocked, then. I'm a full-time LEO in Colorado, and before I got this job, I was completely in favor of civil forfieture.  100% in favor.  Then I got the opportunity to see it in action.  I figured we'd be seizing the vehicles used in the commission of drug crimes, where substantial quantities of narcotics were being transported.  Not even close.  In my opinion, civil forfieture allows less than completely ethical LE agencies to get around the requirement that fines and other punishments be finite-that is, specifically defined.  If you break the law, and you're poor, then your ass is goign to prison.  That's all there is to it.  On the other hand, if you break the law and ae well-off, you just might be able to cut a sweet deal and not even pled guilty. Here's how I have PERSONALLY SEEN this work.  Accused has nice assets.  Accused is offered a total walk if he agrees not to contest forfeiture action.  Why?  Well, the agency gets the assets.  They don't have to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, or even by a preponderance of the evidence.  Cha-ching-it's payday!  And of course, this makes perfect sense if you're the accused-no conviction, no prison time followed by a mandatory parole tail, and it's off to re-establish your criminal enterprise somewherre else.  No prior conviction will show up when your riminal background is checked, so you're home free. I love my job.  Not many people can say that they make a difference every day.  It's one of the big reasons I work for a small agency.  You can see how your hard work positively benefits members of the community.  But mark my words-WE HAVE GONE TOO FAR.  Almost everything is a felony these days, and everyone clamors for us to "get tough on crime".  Our jail is cram packed, to the point where it actually CLOSED last year (that's right-jail's closed, sorry...here's your FELONY SUMMONS).  The kids I see coming into the profession these days are interseted in career advancement, fellow citizens be damned, and look at everyone as if they are potential crack dealing child molesters.  I'm applying to grad schools as we speak, because I'll tell you, this job is not what it used to be, and it's only getting worse.   In my opinion, we got off track when we started to use the criminal code to ensure that we wouldn't be offended.  I believe we should have two classes of crimes-crimes against persons and crimes against property.  That's it.  Most of what I do consists of either armed tax collecting or preventing people from harming themselves-by throwing them in prison, where they can be beated, sodomized, and learn an actual criminal trade like auto theft or burglary.  Whenever I hear one of my neighbors say, "there ought to be a law", I ask them-is it worth having us show up and shoot someone over?  Because bottom line is, when we show up, that's always possible.  Our mere presence might be just what is needed to push a normally law-abiding person over the edge-so is his tall grass or junked car really a law enforcement matter?   And why, pray tell, is our uniformed presnce so offensive?  Daily, I read about misconduct on the part of fellow officers-some of you might have kept up with the Shawna Nelson trial, involving the two "premier" LE agencies of this area.  We're all assured that this behavior is not representative of the LE community as a whole-and it's not.  Mere adultery is FUCKING TAME.  Much worse things go on here, and I suspect in most areas.  The public doesn't trust us, and I can see why they don't.  Add to all of that this assclown from the ATF ordering his "always think forfieture" trinket, and other such inappropriate advertisments of ass-hattery, and it's no wonder my profession is thought of the way it is. End of rant.  Fuck it.

good read, thank you.

Fucking amazing.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I don't want to see this issue dropped and forgotten about.  I want to see whoever is responsible be held accountable for spending $36000 on 2000 engraved Leathermans @ $18 a piece.  We as tax payers paid for the ATF to flaunt the fact they don't believe in the fundamental principal of presumption on innocence. Can we tack this and maybe organize something?  I've never been good at organizing anything but I'll do what I can.  What is the best way to contact the conservative media?  I think our best bet would be Glenn Beck.  What would get his attention, letters, e-mail or phone? Once this gets out it will even piss off some of the more complacent gun owners.  No one likes the man telling him what to do, but when the man revels in it, people push back.  If you have any ideas please post them or send IMs. Thanks, Adam This is not fraud, waste, or abuse.  That is a very very good price for a leatherman tool.  It is cheaper than you can buy one at the store.   You can whine all you want but at the end of the day you will be wasting your time.  There is no legitimate reason not to buy leatherman tools for LEOs.   You end up making gun owners look like jerks to the people that make gun laws.  Good plan CIVIL forfeiture, which is the overwhelming proponderance of forfeiture cases in the US, should be outlawed. I am fine with forfeiture after criminal conviction. But the asset forfeiture the ATF goons are talking about is civil, and prior to any criminal indictment, let alone conviction, in many cases. BTW, When I wrote my letters to my Senators and Representative, I did not even mention guns. I couched it in terms of wanton waste of tax money and abusive practices that corrupt the agencies that engage in it. That is nowhere near how the asset forfeiture process works.   You are misrepresenting the entire scope of forfeiture laws.  The assets are frozen, not seized and after adjudication can be forfeited.  The agency has to clearly prove that those specific assets were purchased with illegally obtained funds or used in the crime.  You have to indict the actual assets... Asset forfeiture takes the profit out of crime and that is a good thing.  LEOs should be looking at where the money went when they arrest someone who made a profit through criminal means.   I know fully how civil asset forfeiture works. It is the exact oppposite of how criminal forfeiture works. In a civil forefeiture, the burden of proving the asset was NOT the proceeds of criminal activity is on the owner. In other words, guilt is assumed and it is up to the person whose assets were taken to PROVE that they obained them with funds derived from legal activies. In thousands of cases in the past 20 years people have had their assets taken, but were NEVER convicted of any crime. In about 80% of civil asset forfeitures, a criminal conviction is NEVER obtained. Perhaps the most damning indictment of our current civil forfeiture process is that, according to 18 U.S.C. §981(a)(2)), innocence is NOT a defense in a civil case. Yes, you read that correctly. The government can end up with a not guilty verdict on the criminal charge that precipitated the seizure and you cannot use that not guilty verdict as evidence in your civil proceeding to retrieve your property. I am really not shocked that you would be defending the indefensible. I would actually be shocked if you had come down on the other side of this issue. So, it seems that what's being implied here is that you'd be suprised if LEO's came down against civil forfieture or flaunting their authority over other citizens? Prepare to be shocked, then. I'm a full-time LEO in Colorado, and before I got this job, I was completely in favor of civil forfieture.  100% in favor.  Then I got the opportunity to see it in action.  I figured we'd be seizing the vehicles used in the commission of drug crimes, where substantial quantities of narcotics were being transported.  Not even close.  In my opinion, civil forfieture allows less than completely ethical LE agencies to get around the requirement that fines and other punishments be finite-that is, specifically defined.  If you break the law, and you're poor, then your ass is goign to prison.  That's all there is to it.  On the other hand, if you break the law and ae well-off, you just might be able to cut a sweet deal and not even pled guilty. Here's how I have PERSONALLY SEEN this work.  Accused has nice assets.  Accused is offered a total walk if he agrees not to contest forfeiture action.  Why?  Well, the agency gets the assets.  They don't have to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, or even by a preponderance of the evidence.  Cha-ching-it's payday!  And of course, this makes perfect sense if you're the accused-no conviction, no prison time followed by a mandatory parole tail, and it's off to re-establish your criminal enterprise somewherre else.  No prior conviction will show up when your riminal background is checked, so you're home free. I love my job.  Not many people can say that they make a difference every day.  It's one of the big reasons I work for a small agency.  You can see how your hard work positively benefits members of the community.  But mark my words-WE HAVE GONE TOO FAR.  Almost everything is a felony these days, and everyone clamors for us to "get tough on crime".  Our jail is cram packed, to the point where it actually CLOSED last year (that's right-jail's closed, sorry...here's your FELONY SUMMONS).  The kids I see coming into the profession these days are interseted in career advancement, fellow citizens be damned, and look at everyone as if they are potential crack dealing child molesters.  I'm applying to grad schools as we speak, because I'll tell you, this job is not what it used to be, and it's only getting worse.   In my opinion, we got off track when we started to use the criminal code to ensure that we wouldn't be offended.  I believe we should have two classes of crimes-crimes against persons and crimes against property.  That's it.  Most of what I do consists of either armed tax collecting or preventing people from harming themselves-by throwing them in prison, where they can be beated, sodomized, and learn an actual criminal trade like auto theft or burglary.  Whenever I hear one of my neighbors say, "there ought to be a law", I ask them-is it worth having us show up and shoot someone over?  Because bottom line is, when we show up, that's always possible.  Our mere presence might be just what is needed to push a normally law-abiding person over the edge-so is his tall grass or junked car really a law enforcement matter?   And why, pray tell, is our uniformed presnce so offensive?  Daily, I read about misconduct on the part of fellow officers-some of you might have kept up with the Shawna Nelson trial, involving the two "premier" LE agencies of this area.  We're all assured that this behavior is not representative of the LE community as a whole-and it's not.  Mere adultery is FUCKING TAME.  Much worse things go on here, and I suspect in most areas.  The public doesn't trust us, and I can see why they don't.  Add to all of that this assclown from the ATF ordering his "always think forfieture" trinket, and other such inappropriate advertisments of ass-hattery, and it's no wonder my profession is thought of the way it is. End of rant.  Fuck it.

If what you say you saw is in fact true, you have an obligation to report it to the OIG.

Being such a good LEO with those strong convictions, I assume you have done so and can provide case #s...news articles of arrests, etc.

I won't hold my breath waiting.

Quoted: Thanks, gents-see, we're not all assholes, some of us just play assholes on TV.

I know you are not all like that. My old criminal justice professor (former chicago cop and federal LEO) had much the same attitude you appear to have. It's just a shame that in the day and age of budget and advancement chasing there aren't more of you in leadership positions in that field to remind the others of what you are actually supposed to stand for and against.

fuck the ATF cocksucks

Quoted: Tim Leatherman has nothing to do with this ATF purchase or it's engraving. Who cares about Tim?

Well, I do. ANs you should as well.
He is a libtard John Kerry supporter that will never see another penny from me.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: snip If what you say you saw is in fact true, you have an obligation to report it to the OIG. Being such a good LEO with those strong convictions, I assume you have done so and can provide case #s...news articles of arrests, etc. I won't hold my breath waiting.

ROFL.  Not all of us work for the Federal Government, so "OIG complaints" aren't really appropriate.  And as to my reputation as an LEO, to quote the immortal Denzel Washington, "they build jails because of me, son".  10 years on the job and 2...that's right...2 losses at trial.  You know, your opinion really doesn't make a bit of difference to me.  Not even worth arguing about, really.  You're right-the system isn't broken, and we're accomplishing our mission of making our communities safer while safeguarding the Constitutional rights of our fellow citizens.  Just look at the outpouring of support we're getting from the public.

Quoted: End of rant.  Fuck it.

Reply of the year right there!

Quoted: Prepare to be shocked, then. I'm a full-time LEO in Colorado, and before I got this job, I was completely in favor of civil forfieture.  100% in favor.  Then I got the opportunity to see it in action.  I figured we'd be seizing the vehicles used in the commission of drug crimes, where substantial quantities of narcotics were being transported.  Not even close.  In my opinion, civil forfieture allows less than completely ethical LE agencies to get around the requirement that fines and other punishments be finite-that is, specifically defined.  If you break the law, and you're poor, then your ass is goign to prison.  That's all there is to it.  On the other hand, if you break the law and ae well-off, you just might be able to cut a sweet deal and not even pled guilty. Here's how I have PERSONALLY SEEN this work.  Accused has nice assets.  Accused is offered a total walk if he agrees not to contest forfeiture action.  Why?  Well, the agency gets the assets.  They don't have to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, or even by a preponderance of the evidence.  Cha-ching-it's payday!  And of course, this makes perfect sense if you're the accused-no conviction, no prison time followed by a mandatory parole tail, and it's off to re-establish your criminal enterprise somewherre else.  No prior conviction will show up when your riminal background is checked, so you're home free. I love my job.  Not many people can say that they make a difference every day.  It's one of the big reasons I work for a small agency.  You can see how your hard work positively benefits members of the community.  But mark my words-WE HAVE GONE TOO FAR.  Almost everything is a felony these days, and everyone clamors for us to "get tough on crime".  Our jail is cram packed, to the point where it actually CLOSED last year (that's right-jail's closed, sorry...here's your FELONY SUMMONS).  The kids I see coming into the profession these days are interseted in career advancement, fellow citizens be damned, and look at everyone as if they are potential crack dealing child molesters.  I'm applying to grad schools as we speak, because I'll tell you, this job is not what it used to be, and it's only getting worse.   In my opinion, we got off track when we started to use the criminal code to ensure that we wouldn't be offended.  I believe we should have two classes of crimes-crimes against persons and crimes against property.  That's it.  Most of what I do consists of either armed tax collecting or preventing people from harming themselves-by throwing them in prison, where they can be beated, sodomized, and learn an actual criminal trade like auto theft or burglary.  Whenever I hear one of my neighbors say, "there ought to be a law", I ask them-is it worth having us show up and shoot someone over?  Because bottom line is, when we show up, that's always possible.  Our mere presence might be just what is needed to push a normally law-abiding person over the edge-so is his tall grass or junked car really a law enforcement matter?   And why, pray tell, is our uniformed presnce so offensive?  Daily, I read about misconduct on the part of fellow officers-some of you might have kept up with the Shawna Nelson trial, involving the two "premier" LE agencies of this area.  We're all assured that this behavior is not representative of the LE community as a whole-and it's not.  Mere adultery is FUCKING TAME.  Much worse things go on here, and I suspect in most areas.  The public doesn't trust us, and I can see why they don't.  Add to all of that this assclown from the ATF ordering his "always think forfieture" trinket, and other such inappropriate advertisments of ass-hattery, and it's no wonder my profession is thought of the way it is. End of rant.  Fuck it.

10/10 for a fine rant and for having the stones to say it.

Quoted: Sweet, the last ATF class I was in just gave us engraved knives.  Next time...Leatherman tools.   I gotta sign up for more training.   You guys are laughable for thinking there is something wrong with a law enforcement officer needing a leatherman tool.  I use my leatherman constantly.   As far as forfeiture laws...they take the profit out of crime.  When you catch a bank robber running out of the bank with a bag of money, he doesn't get to keep the money once he gets out of jail...same deal with asset forfeiture.  You acquire money through illegal means, you lose that money or what was purchased with it.

An your calling us bank robbers and thieves???????????  Carefull where you point that finger of guilt Lash Larue.  It might surprise you that most folks around here are honest law abiding taxpayers who feel that your ATF buddies are a little overzelous in their "furfeitures", such that many feel quite fearfull of them.  It also might surprise you that your ATF buddies have a sad history of reinterpreting the law as a they say fit and testylying under oath with seeming impunity.  Dare I mention some of their horribly bungled operations like Waco texas leading to the deaths of 78 people, including children??????????????????????????????????????????????????????

Feeling me a$$*at!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Sent the following letter to Congressman Harry Mitchell, Sentator John Kyl, And Senator John McCain.

Dear _________: I am contacting you in regard to concerns about a recent purchase by the ATF (solicitation number 840400000029).  The ATF ordered approximately 2000 Leatherman multi-tools, and had each one engraved with the letters "ATF", and the phrase "Always Think Forfeiture." It is the latter part that I find absolutely reprehensible.  Not only is this a frivoulous and disgusting waste of taxpayer dollars, but it demonstrates an attitude that American citizens are sheep to be fleeced, not individuals with a right to the due process of law. The ATF has developed a reputation for its abuses in the past, and this contract with Freedom Enterprises of Spokane, WA shows a callous disregard for American Citizens and their individual property rights. As an American citizen, I find these actions troubling at best.  This contract needs to be canceled, and the individuals who approved it need to be removed from their positions. Please look into this matter Thank you for your time.

Feel free to use some of my verbage.  This needs to be pushed.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: snip If what you say you saw is in fact true, you have an obligation to report it to the OIG. Being such a good LEO with those strong convictions, I assume you have done so and can provide case #s...news articles of arrests, etc. I won't hold my breath waiting. ROFL.  Not all of us work for the Federal Government, so "OIG complaints" aren't really appropriate.  And as to my reputation as an LEO, to quote the immortal Denzel Washington, "they build jails because of me, son".  10 years on the job and 2...that's right...2 losses at trial.  You know, your opinion really doesn't make a bit of difference to me.  Not even worth arguing about, really.  You're right-the system isn't broken, and we're accomplishing our mission of making our communities safer while safeguarding the Constitutional rights of our fellow citizens.  Just look at the outpouring of support we're getting from the public.

hats off, PP, hats off.   Wish we had more LEOs like you and a lot less like FedDC, maybe things would work better.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: snip If what you say you saw is in fact true, you have an obligation to report it to the OIG. Being such a good LEO with those strong convictions, I assume you have done so and can provide case #s...news articles of arrests, etc. I won't hold my breath waiting. ROFL.  Not all of us work for the Federal Government, so "OIG complaints" aren't really appropriate.  And as to my reputation as an LEO, to quote the immortal Denzel Washington, "they build jails because of me, son".  10 years on the job and 2...that's right...2 losses at trial.  You know, your opinion really doesn't make a bit of difference to me.  Not even worth arguing about, really.  You're right-the system isn't broken, and we're accomplishing our mission of making our communities safer while safeguarding the Constitutional rights of our fellow citizens.  Just look at the outpouring of support we're getting from the public.

Quoted: If what you say you saw is in fact true, you have an obligation to report it to the OIG. Being such a good LEO with those strong convictions, I assume you have done so and can provide case #s...news articles of arrests, etc. I won't hold my breath waiting.

Why is it that some people go out of their way to prove they are <COC Violation>.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I don't want to see this issue dropped and forgotten about.  I want to see whoever is responsible be held accountable for spending $36000 on 2000 engraved Leathermans @ $18 a piece.  We as tax payers paid for the ATF to flaunt the fact they don't believe in the fundamental principal of presumption on innocence. Can we tack this and maybe organize something?  I've never been good at organizing anything but I'll do what I can.  What is the best way to contact the conservative media?  I think our best bet would be Glenn Beck.  What would get his attention, letters, e-mail or phone? Once this gets out it will even piss off some of the more complacent gun owners.  No one likes the man telling him what to do, but when the man revels in it, people push back.  If you have any ideas please post them or send IMs. Thanks, Adam This is not fraud, waste, or abuse.  That is a very very good price for a leatherman tool.  It is cheaper than you can buy one at the store.   You can whine all you want but at the end of the day you will be wasting your time.  There is no legitimate reason not to buy leatherman tools for LEOs.   You end up making gun owners look like jerks to the people that make gun laws.  Good plan CIVIL forfeiture, which is the overwhelming proponderance of forfeiture cases in the US, should be outlawed. I am fine with forfeiture after criminal conviction. But the asset forfeiture the ATF goons are talking about is civil, and prior to any criminal indictment, let alone conviction, in many cases. BTW, When I wrote my letters to my Senators and Representative, I did not even mention guns. I couched it in terms of wanton waste of tax money and abusive practices that corrupt the agencies that engage in it. That is nowhere near how the asset forfeiture process works.   You are misrepresenting the entire scope of forfeiture laws.  The assets are frozen, not seized and after adjudication can be forfeited.  The agency has to clearly prove that those specific assets were purchased with illegally obtained funds or used in the crime.  You have to indict the actual assets... Asset forfeiture takes the profit out of crime and that is a good thing.  LEOs should be looking at where the money went when they arrest someone who made a profit through criminal means.   I know fully how civil asset forfeiture works. It is the exact oppposite of how criminal forfeiture works. In a civil forefeiture, the burden of proving the asset was NOT the proceeds of criminal activity is on the owner. In other words, guilt is assumed and it is up to the person whose assets were taken to PROVE that they obained them with funds derived from legal activies. In thousands of cases in the past 20 years people have had their assets taken, but were NEVER convicted of any crime. In about 80% of civil asset forfeitures, a criminal conviction is NEVER obtained. Perhaps the most damning indictment of our current civil forfeiture process is that, according to 18 U.S.C. §981(a)(2)), innocence is NOT a defense in a civil case. Yes, you read that correctly. The government can end up with a not guilty verdict on the criminal charge that precipitated the seizure and you cannot use that not guilty verdict as evidence in your civil proceeding to retrieve your property. I am really not shocked that you would be defending the indefensible. I would actually be shocked if you had come down on the other side of this issue. So, it seems that what's being implied here is that you'd be suprised if LEO's came down against civil forfieture or flaunting their authority over other citizens? Prepare to be shocked, then. I'm a full-time LEO in Colorado, and before I got this job, I was completely in favor of civil forfieture.  100% in favor.  Then I got the opportunity to see it in action.  I figured we'd be seizing the vehicles used in the commission of drug crimes, where substantial quantities of narcotics were being transported.  Not even close.  In my opinion, civil forfieture allows less than completely ethical LE agencies to get around the requirement that fines and other punishments be finite-that is, specifically defined.  If you break the law, and you're poor, then your ass is goign to prison.  That's all there is to it.  On the other hand, if you break the law and ae well-off, you just might be able to cut a sweet deal and not even pled guilty. Here's how I have PERSONALLY SEEN this work.  Accused has nice assets.  Accused is offered a total walk if he agrees not to contest forfeiture action.  Why?  Well, the agency gets the assets.  They don't have to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, or even by a preponderance of the evidence.  Cha-ching-it's payday!  And of course, this makes perfect sense if you're the accused-no conviction, no prison time followed by a mandatory parole tail, and it's off to re-establish your criminal enterprise somewherre else.  No prior conviction will show up when your riminal background is checked, so you're home free. I love my job.  Not many people can say that they make a difference every day.  It's one of the big reasons I work for a small agency.  You can see how your hard work positively benefits members of the community.  But mark my words-WE HAVE GONE TOO FAR.  Almost everything is a felony these days, and everyone clamors for us to "get tough on crime".  Our jail is cram packed, to the point where it actually CLOSED last year (that's right-jail's closed, sorry...here's your FELONY SUMMONS).  The kids I see coming into the profession these days are interseted in career advancement, fellow citizens be damned, and look at everyone as if they are potential crack dealing child molesters.  I'm applying to grad schools as we speak, because I'll tell you, this job is not what it used to be, and it's only getting worse.   In my opinion, we got off track when we started to use the criminal code to ensure that we wouldn't be offended.  I believe we should have two classes of crimes-crimes against persons and crimes against property.  That's it.  Most of what I do consists of either armed tax collecting or preventing people from harming themselves-by throwing them in prison, where they can be beated, sodomized, and learn an actual criminal trade like auto theft or burglary.  Whenever I hear one of my neighbors say, "there ought to be a law", I ask them-is it worth having us show up and shoot someone over?  Because bottom line is, when we show up, that's always possible.  Our mere presence might be just what is needed to push a normally law-abiding person over the edge-so is his tall grass or junked car really a law enforcement matter?   And why, pray tell, is our uniformed presnce so offensive?  Daily, I read about misconduct on the part of fellow officers-some of you might have kept up with the Shawna Nelson trial, involving the two "premier" LE agencies of this area.  We're all assured that this behavior is not representative of the LE community as a whole-and it's not.  Mere adultery is FUCKING TAME.  Much worse things go on here, and I suspect in most areas.  The public doesn't trust us, and I can see why they don't.  Add to all of that this assclown from the ATF ordering his "always think forfieture" trinket, and other such inappropriate advertisments of ass-hattery, and it's no wonder my profession is thought of the way it is. End of rant.  Fuck it. If what you say you saw is in fact true, you have an obligation to report it to the OIG. Being such a good LEO with those strong convictions, I assume you have done so and can provide case #s...news articles of arrests, etc. I won't hold my breath waiting.

FEDDC...are you a rookie?....I worked in Law enforcement both for local and for the federal government...and you know it does not work that way...so cut and dry....HAHAHAHAHAH!!!!.... sorry but the attitude you show in these types of threads are one of the top reasons I got out of Law Enforcement...too many "NEW/Rookie" officers with your twisted view of what LEO should be....

When I was an officer If I saw a peer doing something that while legal was morally wrong I would always correct them...but when it was someone higher on the food chain I would say something to only have it fall on dead ears.....

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: snip If what you say you saw is in fact true, you have an obligation to report it to the OIG. Being such a good LEO with those strong convictions, I assume you have done so and can provide case #s...news articles of arrests, etc. I won't hold my breath waiting. ROFL.  Not all of us work for the Federal Government, so "OIG complaints" aren't really appropriate.  And as to my reputation as an LEO, to quote the immortal Denzel Washington, "they build jails because of me, son".  10 years on the job and 2...that's right...2 losses at trial.  You know, your opinion really doesn't make a bit of difference to me.  Not even worth arguing about, really.  You're right-the system isn't broken, and we're accomplishing our mission of making our communities safer while safeguarding the Constitutional rights of our fellow citizens.  Just look at the outpouring of support we're getting from the public.

Again, if you have personal knowledge of illegal asset forfeiture or forfeiture that was used for personal gain by givernment employees, it is your responsibility to report it to the legal authorities who investigatie those crimes.  Being so morally straight yourself, it should be safe to assume you have done so.  

That is...unless your story is BS.  




With all that experience, you must know how to report these abuses to the various federal agencies that would cover them.  

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I don't want to see this issue dropped and forgotten about.  I want to see whoever is responsible be held accountable for spending $36000 on 2000 engraved Leathermans @ $18 a piece.  We as tax payers paid for the ATF to flaunt the fact they don't believe in the fundamental principal of presumption on innocence. Can we tack this and maybe organize something?  I've never been good at organizing anything but I'll do what I can.  What is the best way to contact the conservative media?  I think our best bet would be Glenn Beck.  What would get his attention, letters, e-mail or phone? Once this gets out it will even piss off some of the more complacent gun owners.  No one likes the man telling him what to do, but when the man revels in it, people push back.  If you have any ideas please post them or send IMs. Thanks, Adam This is not fraud, waste, or abuse.  That is a very very good price for a leatherman tool.  It is cheaper than you can buy one at the store.   You can whine all you want but at the end of the day you will be wasting your time.  There is no legitimate reason not to buy leatherman tools for LEOs.   You end up making gun owners look like jerks to the people that make gun laws.  Good plan CIVIL forfeiture, which is the overwhelming proponderance of forfeiture cases in the US, should be outlawed. I am fine with forfeiture after criminal conviction. But the asset forfeiture the ATF goons are talking about is civil, and prior to any criminal indictment, let alone conviction, in many cases. BTW, When I wrote my letters to my Senators and Representative, I did not even mention guns. I couched it in terms of wanton waste of tax money and abusive practices that corrupt the agencies that engage in it. That is nowhere near how the asset forfeiture process works.   You are misrepresenting the entire scope of forfeiture laws.  The assets are frozen, not seized and after adjudication can be forfeited.  The agency has to clearly prove that those specific assets were purchased with illegally obtained funds or used in the crime.  You have to indict the actual assets... Asset forfeiture takes the profit out of crime and that is a good thing.  LEOs should be looking at where the money went when they arrest someone who made a profit through criminal means.   I know fully how civil asset forfeiture works. It is the exact oppposite of how criminal forfeiture works. In a civil forefeiture, the burden of proving the asset was NOT the proceeds of criminal activity is on the owner. In other words, guilt is assumed and it is up to the person whose assets were taken to PROVE that they obained them with funds derived from legal activies. In thousands of cases in the past 20 years people have had their assets taken, but were NEVER convicted of any crime. In about 80% of civil asset forfeitures, a criminal conviction is NEVER obtained. Perhaps the most damning indictment of our current civil forfeiture process is that, according to 18 U.S.C. §981(a)(2)), innocence is NOT a defense in a civil case. Yes, you read that correctly. The government can end up with a not guilty verdict on the criminal charge that precipitated the seizure and you cannot use that not guilty verdict as evidence in your civil proceeding to retrieve your property. I am really not shocked that you would be defending the indefensible. I would actually be shocked if you had come down on the other side of this issue. So, it seems that what's being implied here is that you'd be suprised if LEO's came down against civil forfieture or flaunting their authority over other citizens? Prepare to be shocked, then. I'm a full-time LEO in Colorado, and before I got this job, I was completely in favor of civil forfieture.  100% in favor.  Then I got the opportunity to see it in action.  I figured we'd be seizing the vehicles used in the commission of drug crimes, where substantial quantities of narcotics were being transported.  Not even close.  In my opinion, civil forfieture allows less than completely ethical LE agencies to get around the requirement that fines and other punishments be finite-that is, specifically defined.  If you break the law, and you're poor, then your ass is goign to prison.  That's all there is to it.  On the other hand, if you break the law and ae well-off, you just might be able to cut a sweet deal and not even pled guilty. Here's how I have PERSONALLY SEEN this work.  Accused has nice assets.  Accused is offered a total walk if he agrees not to contest forfeiture action.  Why?  Well, the agency gets the assets.  They don't have to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, or even by a preponderance of the evidence.  Cha-ching-it's payday!  And of course, this makes perfect sense if you're the accused-no conviction, no prison time followed by a mandatory parole tail, and it's off to re-establish your criminal enterprise somewherre else.  No prior conviction will show up when your riminal background is checked, so you're home free. I love my job.  Not many people can say that they make a difference every day.  It's one of the big reasons I work for a small agency.  You can see how your hard work positively benefits members of the community.  But mark my words-WE HAVE GONE TOO FAR.  Almost everything is a felony these days, and everyone clamors for us to "get tough on crime".  Our jail is cram packed, to the point where it actually CLOSED last year (that's right-jail's closed, sorry...here's your FELONY SUMMONS).  The kids I see coming into the profession these days are interseted in career advancement, fellow citizens be damned, and look at everyone as if they are potential crack dealing child molesters.  I'm applying to grad schools as we speak, because I'll tell you, this job is not what it used to be, and it's only getting worse.   In my opinion, we got off track when we started to use the criminal code to ensure that we wouldn't be offended.  I believe we should have two classes of crimes-crimes against persons and crimes against property.  That's it.  Most of what I do consists of either armed tax collecting or preventing people from harming themselves-by throwing them in prison, where they can be beated, sodomized, and learn an actual criminal trade like auto theft or burglary.  Whenever I hear one of my neighbors say, "there ought to be a law", I ask them-is it worth having us show up and shoot someone over?  Because bottom line is, when we show up, that's always possible.  Our mere presence might be just what is needed to push a normally law-abiding person over the edge-so is his tall grass or junked car really a law enforcement matter?   And why, pray tell, is our uniformed presnce so offensive?  Daily, I read about misconduct on the part of fellow officers-some of you might have kept up with the Shawna Nelson trial, involving the two "premier" LE agencies of this area.  We're all assured that this behavior is not representative of the LE community as a whole-and it's not.  Mere adultery is FUCKING TAME.  Much worse things go on here, and I suspect in most areas.  The public doesn't trust us, and I can see why they don't.  Add to all of that this assclown from the ATF ordering his "always think forfieture" trinket, and other such inappropriate advertisments of ass-hattery, and it's no wonder my profession is thought of the way it is. End of rant.  Fuck it.

I have been educated today.  Thank you.

FedDC really is an asshat, forget my earlier polite A$$*at.  An PP916, your a hero, or at at the very least a courageous honest man.  Maybe we can all learn from this, including FedDC.

Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: snip If what you say you saw is in fact true, you have an obligation to report it to the OIG. Being such a good LEO with those strong convictions, I assume you have done so and can provide case #s...news articles of arrests, etc. I won't hold my breath waiting. ROFL.  Not all of us work for the Federal Government, so "OIG complaints" aren't really appropriate.  And as to my reputation as an LEO, to quote the immortal Denzel Washington, "they build jails because of me, son".  10 years on the job and 2...that's right...2 losses at trial.  You know, your opinion really doesn't make a bit of difference to me.  Not even worth arguing about, really.  You're right-the system isn't broken, and we're accomplishing our mission of making our communities safer while safeguarding the Constitutional rights of our fellow citizens.  Just look at the outpouring of support we're getting from the public. Again, if you have personal knowledge of illegal asset forfeiture or forfeiture that was used for personal gain by givernment employees, it is your responsibility to report it to the legal authorities who investigatie those crimes.  Being so morally straight yourself, it should be safe to assume you have done so.   That is...unless your story is BS.   With all that experience, you must know how to report these abuses to the various federal agencies that would cover them.

And what is unlawful about forfieture action taken in lieu of criminal prosecution?  Not a damn thing, and you know it.  ILLEGAL and IMMORAL or UNETHICAL are different concepts.  Really.  Look them up, I'm sure that with your big Federal budget you have a dictionary within arm's reach, right?  I love the straw man argument you're trying to make here.  If I had to guess, I'd say your "Fed LE job" consists of metal detector duty at the entrance to a government building-how far off am I?

Quoted: Prepare to be shocked, then. I'm a full-time LEO in Colorado, and before I got this job, I was completely in favor of civil forfieture. 100% in favor. Then I got the opportunity to see it in action. I figured we'd be seizing the vehicles used in the commission of drug crimes, where substantial quantities of narcotics were being transported. Not even close. In my opinion, civil forfieture allows less than completely ethical LE agencies to get around the requirement that fines and other punishments be finite-that is, specifically defined. If you break the law, and you're poor, then your ass is goign to prison. That's all there is to it. On the other hand, if you break the law and ae well-off, you just might be able to cut a sweet deal and not even pled guilty. Here's how I have PERSONALLY SEEN this work. Accused has nice assets. Accused is offered a total walk if he agrees not to contest forfeiture action. Why? Well, the agency gets the assets. They don't have to prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt, or even by a preponderance of the evidence. Cha-ching-it's payday! And of course, this makes perfect sense if you're the accused-no conviction, no prison time followed by a mandatory parole tail, and it's off to re-establish your criminal enterprise somewherre else. No prior conviction will show up when your riminal background is checked, so you're home free. I love my job. Not many people can say that they make a difference every day. It's one of the big reasons I work for a small agency. You can see how your hard work positively benefits members of the community. But mark my words-WE HAVE GONE TOO FAR. Almost everything is a felony these days, and everyone clamors for us to "get tough on crime". Our jail is cram packed, to the point where it actually CLOSED last year (that's right-jail's closed, sorry...here's your FELONY SUMMONS). The kids I see coming into the profession these days are interseted in career advancement, fellow citizens be damned, and look at everyone as if they are potential crack dealing child molesters. I'm applying to grad schools as we speak, because I'll tell you, this job is not what it used to be, and it's only getting worse. In my opinion, we got off track when we started to use the criminal code to ensure that we wouldn't be offended. I believe we should have two classes of crimes-crimes against persons and crimes against property. That's it. Most of what I do consists of either armed tax collecting or preventing people from harming themselves-by throwing them in prison, where they can be beated, sodomized, and learn an actual criminal trade like auto theft or burglary. Whenever I hear one of my neighbors say, "there ought to be a law", I ask them-is it worth having us show up and shoot someone over? Because bottom line is, when we show up, that's always possible. Our mere presence might be just what is needed to push a normally law-abiding person over the edge-so is his tall grass or junked car really a law enforcement matter? And why, pray tell, is our uniformed presnce so offensive? Daily, I read about misconduct on the part of fellow officers-some of you might have kept up with the Shawna Nelson trial, involving the two "premier" LE agencies of this area. We're all assured that this behavior is not representative of the LE community as a whole-and it's not. Mere adultery is FUCKING TAME. Much worse things go on here, and I suspect in most areas. The public doesn't trust us, and I can see why they don't. Add to all of that this assclown from the ATF ordering his "always think forfieture" trinket, and other such inappropriate advertisments of ass-hattery, and it's no wonder my profession is thought of the way it is. End of rant. Fuck it. 10/10 for a fine rant and for having the stones to say it.

+1

Quoted: Quoted: And what is unlawful about forfeiture action taken in lieu of criminal prosecution?  Not a damn thing, and you know it.  ILLEGAL and IMMORAL or UNETHICAL are different concepts.  Really.  Look them up, I'm sure that with your big Federal budget you have a dictionary within arm's reach, right?  I love the straw man argument you're trying to make here.  If I had to guess, I'd say your "Fed LE job" consists of metal detector duty at the entrance to a government building-how far off am I?

LOL...lets play the insult one another's job.  Good plan.

If you knew the asset forfeiture codes as well as you claim to, you would see the illegalities alleged in your rant.  


Again, being the super high speed LEO that you claim to be and with your complaints about so many things being a felony, you should be able to see plenty of charges

Maybe it is time for you to retire...you obviously hate the job and have passed burnout.  


Anyone with your lack of respect for your peers has no place on the job.  You denigrate the people you work with on a public forum...  Seriously, how can you pin on a badge when you don't respect the job or the other people that do it?  When you make sweeping condemnations of LEOs, you embarrass the entire profession.  As a "seasoned" LEO who would be in a leadership position at this point in their career, you should know that you do not denigrate the people working for you in public.

Then again, all of that is based on the theory that you are who you say you are...

It is GD after all[://

Quoted: Quoted: If what you say you saw is in fact true, you have an obligation to report it to the OIG. Being such a good LEO with those strong convictions, I assume you have done so and can provide case #s...news articles of arrests, etc. I won't hold my breath waiting. FEDDC...are you a rookie?....I worked in Law enforcement both for local and for the federal government...and you know it does not work that way...so cut and dry....HAHAHAHAHAH!!!!.... sorry but the attitude you show in these types of threads are one of the top reasons I got out of Law Enforcement...too many "NEW/Rookie" officers with your twisted view of what LEO should be.... When I was an officer If I saw a peer doing something that while legal was morally wrong I would always correct them...but when it was someone higher on the food chain I would say something to only have it fall on dead ears.....

I saw similar things when I was active duty... I guess one could say "Rank has its privileges?"  Or is that also a nice way of saying that organizations are only as ethical/moral as the senior leadership is?  ...  and that once the senior leadership gets infiltrated by backstabbing ankle biters, you're pretty much fucked?

tag

Quoted: Quoted: If what you say you saw is in fact true, you have an obligation to report it to the OIG. Being such a good LEO with those strong convictions, I assume you have done so and can provide case #s...news articles of arrests, etc. I won't hold my breath waiting. Why is it that some people go out of their way to prove they are <COC Violation>.

they're trying to compensate for a deficiency?

There was a recent article in Swat Mag about forfeiture, and how it can be abused, citing a case of a legal green card immigrant, who did not believe in bank, and was carrying his hard earned cash back to mexico and suffered a confiscation, even though he was guilty of nothing.  That is just plain wrong.