ATF's new Leatherman's - Page 2

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[ARCHIVED THREAD] - ATF's new Leatherman's (Page 2 of 7)

Posted: 3/19/2008 6:42:52 PM EDT

[#1]

Wouldn't the extra charge for the engraving be considered "Fraud,waist & abuse"
of Federal tax money ?

Isn't there a US Gov hot line for that ?

Posted: 3/19/2008 6:44:40 PM EDT

[#2]

I'm not even sure why they need pocket tools in the first place.

Posted: 3/19/2008 6:45:57 PM EDT

[#3]

Quoted:
I'm not even sure why they need pocket tools in the first place.

To file down disconectors of course.

Posted: 3/19/2008 6:49:31 PM EDT

[#4]

Leatherman's a dick to all gun owners folks.

He's come out pretty strong against the Constitution a number of times folks.

I'm not one for calling boycott, but this guy is a total douche and I will spend my money else where.

Posted: 3/19/2008 6:54:31 PM EDT

[#5]

Quoted:
ATF are cock suckers so naturally they act like cock suckers.

They could at least act like respectable cocksuckers with responsible and professional regard for the taxpayer's money they are entrusted to spend with frugal care.

Arrogant cocksuckers fits better by this act.

Posted: 3/19/2008 7:01:06 PM EDT

[#6]

Quoted:

Quoted:
ATF are cock suckers so naturally they act like cock suckers.

They could at least act like respectable cocksuckers with responsible and professional regard for the taxpayer's money they are entrusted to spend with frugal care.

Arrogant cocksuckers fits better by this act.

Every now and then, however, being an arrogant cocksucker gets you in hot water.

I think this is a perfect example of that, if we run with it and push it. This is the kind of crap that you can get Congress behind and attacking them on, especially if you get talk radio hosts like Boortz and Beck all over this one... Boortz especially hates forfiture and eminent domain and would rake them over the coals.

And yes, I am sending letters.

Posted: 3/19/2008 7:11:33 PM EDT

[#7]

Forwarded to Lou Dobbs, and personally to Glenn Beck and Jim Quinn form "Quinn & rose".

I intent to unleash a shit storm over this, I am also calling my Congressmen, and the Director of the ATF, and The Attyn General's offices tommorow.

Posted: 3/19/2008 7:14:03 PM EDT

[#8]

Quoted:
The following letter will be mailed tomorrow

Honorable Senator _______

I write to express my concern over the enclosed solicitation by the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms for the purchase of a quantity of Letterman Multi Tools.

What is troubling about this purchase it that ATF requests that the tools be engraved with the Words “Asset Forfeiture” and “always think forfeiture”

As a gun owner, constantly worried about complying with the thousands of federal gun laws, I find it troubling that the federal agency tasked with enforcing those laws displays this mentality. I feel like ATF is looking for excuses to take the property of honest Americans.

This agency has been known for abuses in the past and this behavior is extremely worrisome.

I would truly appreciate you looking into this solicitation and expressing your concerns to ATF.

Thank you

inkaybee

hope you dont mind I stole and slightly re-worded your letter to send to Lou Dobbs

Posted: 3/19/2008 7:16:35 PM EDT

[#9]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The following letter will be mailed tomorrow

Honorable Senator _______

I write to express my concern over the enclosed solicitation by the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms for the purchase of a quantity of Letterman Multi Tools.

What is troubling about this purchase it that ATF requests that the tools be engraved with the Words “Asset Forfeiture” and “always think forfeiture”

As a gun owner, constantly worried about complying with the thousands of federal gun laws, I find it troubling that the federal agency tasked with enforcing those laws displays this mentality. I feel like ATF is looking for excuses to take the property of honest Americans.

This agency has been known for abuses in the past and this behavior is extremely worrisome.

I would truly appreciate you looking into this solicitation and expressing your concerns to ATF.

Thank you

inkaybee

hope you dont mind I stole and slightly re-worded your letter to send to Lou Dobbs

That's why I posted it. Feel free to use this people.

Posted: 3/19/2008 7:21:12 PM EDT

[#10]

I wrote my Congressmen and both Senators. This is an outrage!

Posted: 3/19/2008 7:25:07 PM EDT

[#11]

Quoted:
Cavalry Arms needs to use this ATF purchase to show malice in their actions to seize his property!

....."Always think forfeiture"...........ATF says to hell with due process of law......"Always think forfeiture"

Cav Arms needs to use this to show malice- I could not agree more. I hope once Cav Arms wins, individual agents face civil court.

RR

Posted: 3/19/2008 7:30:43 PM EDT

[#12]

Wow can't wait to see the JPFO response!

Posted: 3/19/2008 7:31:07 PM EDT

[#13]

Quoted:

Quoted:
ATF are cock suckers so naturally they act like cock suckers.

They could at least act like respectable cocksuckers with responsible and professional regard for the taxpayer's money they are entrusted to spend with frugal care.

Arrogant cocksuckers fits better by this act.

Every now and then, however, being an arrogant cocksucker gets you in hot water.

I think this is a perfect example of that, if we run with it and push it. This is the kind of crap that you can get Congress behind and attacking them on, especially if you get talk radio hosts like Boortz and Beck all over this one... Boortz especially hates forfiture and eminent domain and would rake them over the coals.

And yes, I am sending letters.

If this isnt worth of a Fire mission.....I don't know what is.

Posted: 3/19/2008 7:31:49 PM EDT

[#14]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The following letter will be mailed tomorrow

Honorable Senator _______

I write to express my concern over the enclosed solicitation by the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms for the purchase of a quantity of Letterman Multi Tools.

What is troubling about this purchase it that ATF requests that the tools be engraved with the Words “Asset Forfeiture” and “always think forfeiture”

As a gun owner, constantly worried about complying with the thousands of federal gun laws, I find it troubling that the federal agency tasked with enforcing those laws displays this mentality. I feel like ATF is looking for excuses to take the property of honest Americans.

This agency has been known for abuses in the past and this behavior is extremely worrisome.

I would truly appreciate you looking into this solicitation and expressing your concerns to ATF.

Thank you

inkaybee

hope you dont mind I stole and slightly re-worded your letter to send to Lou Dobbs

That's why I posted it. Feel free to use this people.

Before you send it, please be sure to run a spell check first. Also I would change
the "gun owner to Tax payer or voter, federal gun laws to just federal laws.
Don't come off as just a gun nut, just a concerned voter or tax payer.

Posted: 3/19/2008 7:32:12 PM EDT

[#15]

I can hardly believe this

Posted: 3/19/2008 7:32:37 PM EDT

[#16]

Border Patrol should order up some "Always think deportation" engraved models for themselves.

La Raza would go loco.

Posted: 3/19/2008 7:33:57 PM EDT

[#17]

Quoted:

Quoted:
The following letter will be mailed tomorrow

Honorable Senator _______

I write to express my concern over the enclosed solicitation by the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms for the purchase of a quantity of Letterman Multi Tools.

What is troubling about this purchase it that ATF requests that the tools be engraved with the Words “Asset Forfeiture” and “always think forfeiture”

As a gun owner, constantly worried about complying with the thousands of federal gun laws, I find it troubling that the federal agency tasked with enforcing those laws displays this mentality. I feel like ATF is looking for excuses to take the property of honest Americans.

This agency has been known for abuses in the past and this behavior is extremely worrisome.

I would truly appreciate you looking into this solicitation and expressing your concerns to ATF.

Thank you

inkaybee

hope you dont mind I stole and slightly re-worded your letter to send to Lou Dobbs

That's why I posted it. Feel free to use this people.

Before you send it, please be sure to run a spell check first. Also I would change
the "gun owner to Tax payer or voter, federal gun laws to just federal laws.
Don't come off as just a gun nut, just a concerned voter or tax payer.

Thanks!

Posted: 3/19/2008 7:38:33 PM EDT

[#18]

Posted: 3/19/2008 7:40:46 PM EDT

[#19]

In before PATO and NCPatrolAR arrive to polish BATFE knobs...

What a fuggin' pathetic organization.

I'm taggin this one for the comic factor...

Posted: 3/19/2008 7:46:38 PM EDT

[#20]

Wow.

Posted: 3/19/2008 8:01:00 PM EDT

[#21]

America's
Tyranny
Force

Posted: 3/19/2008 8:07:34 PM EDT

[#22]

Always Think Forfeiture. Nice.

<--- my shocked face.

Posted: 3/19/2008 8:41:32 PM EDT

[#23]

Quoted:
Always Think Forfeiture. Nice.

<--- my shocked face.

Agree...Talk about organized crime.

Does RICO apply to the Fed's?

Posted: 3/19/2008 8:43:55 PM EDT

[#24]

First off, in for the

Quoted:

Quoted:
Due to this policy of ATF, don't think Cavalry Arms will git their stuff back.

They likely already handed out the Leatherman's to the JBT's that hauled in the booty for ATF.

Did ATF seize anything valuable (resellable) from Cavalry Arms?

I think their entire firearms inventory counts as valuable/resellable.

Quoted:
This needs sent to Lou Dobbs

Couldn't agree more.

Quoted:

Quoted:
This needs sent to Lou Dobbs

And who was the Senator or Congressman that was holding up the new ATF thug-in-chief's approval?

Airport bathroom foot-tapper, Larry Craig, is leading the charge on the holdup of Michael Sullivan.

I hope Sen. Craig catches Sullivan in a dark alley or public bathroom somewhere and.....

Posted: 3/19/2008 8:52:20 PM EDT

[#25]

I'm just thankful we have a president who's reigned in this ... oh .. wait ..nm

Posted: 3/19/2008 8:56:33 PM EDT

[#26]

and here is the DOJ contracting officer in charge of this procurement:

Brian Wilkins, Title: Contracting Officer, Phone: 2026489120, Fax: 2029277311, Email: [email protected]

include this in letters to your senators and reps.

Posted: 3/19/2008 9:09:47 PM EDT

[#27]

epic.

Posted: 3/19/2008 9:15:28 PM EDT

[#28]

Always
Think
Forfeiture

Posted: 3/19/2008 9:25:53 PM EDT

[#29]

tag

Posted: 3/19/2008 9:26:16 PM EDT

[#30]

Quoted:
Always
Think
Forfeiture

Wow. Fucking wow.

Bitches:

Posted: 3/19/2008 9:32:30 PM EDT

[#31]

fuck leatherman and atf

IBP

Posted: 3/19/2008 10:55:14 PM EDT

[#32]

Quoted:
I wrote my Congressmen and both Senators. This is an outrage!

Weren't there certain agents of the crown that were especially known for being very arbitrary and capricious with the personal, private property of subjects?

Posted: 3/20/2008 4:36:24 AM EDT

[#33]

I don't want to see this issue dropped and forgotten about. I want to see whoever is responsible be held accountable for spending $36000 on 2000 engraved Leathermans @ $18 a piece. We as tax payers paid for the ATF to flaunt the fact they don't believe in the fundamental principal of presumption on innocence.

Can we tack this and maybe organize something? I've never been good at organizing anything but I'll do what I can. What is the best way to contact the conservative media? I think our best bet would be Glenn Beck. What would get his attention, letters, e-mail or phone?

Once this gets out it will even piss off some of the more complacent gun owners. No one likes the man telling him what to do, but when the man revels in it, people push back. If you have any ideas please post them or send IMs.

Thanks,
Adam

Posted: 3/20/2008 4:47:35 AM EDT

[#34]

Bump back onto page 1.

The OP should make the title BOLD and change it to something like "Latest ATF Abuse: Write your Congresscritters!"

I am still absolutely SEETHING about this.

Posted: 3/20/2008 4:53:54 AM EDT

[#35]

taggity

Posted: 3/20/2008 5:02:45 AM EDT

[#36]

Sweet, the last ATF class I was in just gave us engraved knives. Next time...Leatherman tools.

I gotta sign up for more training.

You guys are laughable for thinking there is something wrong with a law enforcement officer needing a leatherman tool. I use my leatherman constantly.

As far as forfeiture laws...they take the profit out of crime. When you catch a bank robber running out of the bank with a bag of money, he doesn't get to keep the money once he gets out of jail...same deal with asset forfeiture. You acquire money through illegal means, you lose that money or what was purchased with it.

Posted: 3/20/2008 5:05:08 AM EDT

[#37]

Quoted:
I don't want to see this issue dropped and forgotten about. I want to see whoever is responsible be held accountable for spending $36000 on 2000 engraved Leathermans @ $18 a piece. We as tax payers paid for the ATF to flaunt the fact they don't believe in the fundamental principal of presumption on innocence.

Can we tack this and maybe organize something? I've never been good at organizing anything but I'll do what I can. What is the best way to contact the conservative media? I think our best bet would be Glenn Beck. What would get his attention, letters, e-mail or phone?

Once this gets out it will even piss off some of the more complacent gun owners. No one likes the man telling him what to do, but when the man revels in it, people push back. If you have any ideas please post them or send IMs.

Thanks,
Adam

This is not fraud, waste, or abuse. That is a very very good price for a leatherman tool. It is cheaper than you can buy one at the store.

You can whine all you want but at the end of the day you will be wasting your time. There is no legitimate reason not to buy leatherman tools for LEOs.

You end up making gun owners look like jerks to the people that make gun laws. Good plan

Posted: 3/20/2008 5:08:15 AM EDT

[#38]

Quoted:
Sweet, the last ATF class I was in just gave us engraved knives. Next time...Leatherman tools.

I gotta sign up for more training.

You guys are laughable for thinking there is something wrong with a law enforcement officer needing a leatherman tool. I use my leatherman constantly.

As far as forfeiture laws...they take the profit out of crime. When you catch a bank robber running out of the bank with a bag of money, he doesn't get to keep the money once he gets out of jail...same deal with asset forfeiture. You acquire money through illegal means, you lose that money or what was purchased with it.

So you think it's good to spend money engraving these tools with stupid slogans? A slogan that suggests "take all property first, ask questions later". It's just a waste of money, and worse, promotes breaking the law.

Sounds like you believe that everyone is guilty, and no one should ever get their stuff back, no matter what. This is America, that isn't how it's supposed to be. Your support of the ATF shows your true colors.

Posted: 3/20/2008 5:09:02 AM EDT

[#39]

The $18 was just for the engraving.

Posted: 3/20/2008 5:09:37 AM EDT

[#40]

Quoted:

Quoted:
Due to this policy of ATF, don't think Cavalry Arms will git their stuff back.
They likely already handed out the Leatherman's to the JBT's that hauled in the booty for ATF.

Did ATF seize anything valuable (resellable) from Cavalry Arms?

No, they left the machinery needed to produce more lowers and did not take away their FFL.

Kharn

Posted: 3/20/2008 5:09:38 AM EDT

[#41]

Quoted:
Sweet, the last ATF class I was in just gave us engraved knives. Next time...Leatherman tools.

I gotta sign up for more training.

You guys are laughable for thinking there is something wrong with a law enforcement officer needing a leatherman tool. I use my leatherman constantly.

As far as forfeiture laws...they take the profit out of crime. When you catch a bank robber running out of the bank with a bag of money, he doesn't get to keep the money once he gets out of jail...same deal with asset forfeiture. You acquire money through illegal means, you lose that money or what was purchased with it.

Theft is theft, whether the asshole is hiding behind a mask OR a badge.

Posted: 3/20/2008 5:14:39 AM EDT

[#42]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I don't want to see this issue dropped and forgotten about. I want to see whoever is responsible be held accountable for spending $36000 on 2000 engraved Leathermans @ $18 a piece. We as tax payers paid for the ATF to flaunt the fact they don't believe in the fundamental principal of presumption on innocence.

Can we tack this and maybe organize something? I've never been good at organizing anything but I'll do what I can. What is the best way to contact the conservative media? I think our best bet would be Glenn Beck. What would get his attention, letters, e-mail or phone?

Once this gets out it will even piss off some of the more complacent gun owners. No one likes the man telling him what to do, but when the man revels in it, people push back. If you have any ideas please post them or send IMs.

Thanks,
Adam

This is not fraud, waste, or abuse. That is a very very good price for a leatherman tool. It is cheaper than you can buy one at the store.

You can whine all you want but at the end of the day you will be wasting your time. There is no legitimate reason not to buy leatherman tools for LEOs.

You end up making gun owners look like jerks to the people that make gun laws. Good plan

CIVIL forfeiture, which is the overwhelming proponderance of forfeiture cases in the US, should be outlawed. I am fine with forfeiture after criminal conviction. But the asset forfeiture the ATF goons are talking about is civil, and prior to any criminal indictment, let alone conviction, in many cases.

BTW, When I wrote my letters to my Senators and Representative, I did not even mention guns. I couched it in terms of wanton waste of tax money and abusive practices that corrupt the agencies that engage in it.

Posted: 3/20/2008 5:14:46 AM EDT

[#43]

Quoted:
Sweet, the last ATF class I was in just gave us engraved knives. Next time...Leatherman tools.

I gotta sign up for more training.

You guys are laughable for thinking there is something wrong with a law enforcement officer needing a leatherman tool. I use my leatherman constantly.

As far as forfeiture laws...they take the profit out of crime. When you catch a bank robber running out of the bank with a bag of money, he doesn't get to keep the money once he gets out of jail...same deal with asset forfeiture. You acquire money through illegal means, you lose that money or what was purchased with it.

Sir, you miss the point.

No one here cares if ATF agents carry a knife or a Leatherman. The problem is the arrogant attitude represented by the egraving. In fact, I doubt that anyone here would complain if the tools were engraved with ATFE, or Bureua of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms, and Explosives.

But, the chosen engraving illustrates a non professional, arrogant attitude about their duties, and like it or not, they are employees of the taxpayers and were hired to do a law enforcement job that should be treated with serious attitude and gravity.

At minimum, it's waste. Whether it's $40k or $40 million is irrelevent. In fact, this particular agency is particularly obnoxious for issuing violations over inane and irrelevent infractions that are outside the intent of US law and regulations.

"Theft is theft, whether the asshole is hiding behind a mask OR a badge." nationwide.

If they want to be jackasses, do it on their own time and their own dime, and leave the attitude at home.

Posted: 3/20/2008 5:16:42 AM EDT

[#44]

wrote my reps. i used a modified version of the originally posted letter:

Honorable Senator _________,

I write to express my concern over the solicitation by the Bureau of Alcohol Tobacco and Firearms for the purchase of a quantity of Letterman Multi Tools.

What is troubling about this purchase is the ATF request that the tools be engraved with the words “Always Think Forfeiture”.

In a time of budget gaps, potential future tax increases, and a tightening economy, I have to question the wisdom in spending extra money on a custom engraving. Is this engraving, which amounts to an extra thirty-six *thousand* dollars (2000 tools to be engraved at $18 each), really necessary to the function of the tool or the ability of the individual agent to perform his or her daily job?

More importantly though, as a law-abiding citizen and tax-payer, I find it troubling that a federal agency tasked with enforcing a myriad of federal laws displays this mentality; the seeming desire to deprive citizens of their private property.

This agency has been known for abuses in the past, and this behavior is extremely worrisome.

I would truly appreciate you looking into this solicitation and expressing your concerns to ATF.

Thank you for your time and effort.

Regards,

the bull

Posted: 3/20/2008 5:17:33 AM EDT

[#45]

tag

Posted: 3/20/2008 5:21:07 AM EDT

[#46]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I wrote my Congressmen and both Senators. This is an outrage!

Weren't there certain agents of the crown that were especially known for being very arbitrary and capricious with the personal, private property of subjects?

Remember, an armed man is a citizen; an unarmed man is a subject.

Posted: 3/20/2008 5:24:43 AM EDT

[#47]

Figures......

Forfeit your ammo, one at a time

But hide your dog

Posted: 3/20/2008 5:26:36 AM EDT

[#48]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I don't want to see this issue dropped and forgotten about. I want to see whoever is responsible be held accountable for spending $36000 on 2000 engraved Leathermans @ $18 a piece. We as tax payers paid for the ATF to flaunt the fact they don't believe in the fundamental principal of presumption on innocence.

Can we tack this and maybe organize something? I've never been good at organizing anything but I'll do what I can. What is the best way to contact the conservative media? I think our best bet would be Glenn Beck. What would get his attention, letters, e-mail or phone?

Once this gets out it will even piss off some of the more complacent gun owners. No one likes the man telling him what to do, but when the man revels in it, people push back. If you have any ideas please post them or send IMs.

Thanks,
Adam

This is not fraud, waste, or abuse. That is a very very good price for a leatherman tool. It is cheaper than you can buy one at the store.

You can whine all you want but at the end of the day you will be wasting your time. There is no legitimate reason not to buy leatherman tools for LEOs.

You end up making gun owners look like jerks to the people that make gun laws. Good plan

CIVIL forfeiture, which is the overwhelming proponderance of forfeiture cases in the US, should be outlawed. I am fine with forfeiture after criminal conviction. But the asset forfeiture the ATF goons are talking about is civil, and prior to any criminal indictment, let alone conviction, in many cases.

BTW, When I wrote my letters to my Senators and Representative, I did not even mention guns. I couched it in terms of wanton waste of tax money and abusive practices that corrupt the agencies that engage in it.

That is nowhere near how the asset forfeiture process works.

You are misrepresenting the entire scope of forfeiture laws. The assets are frozen, not seized and after adjudication can be forfeited. The agency has to clearly prove that those specific assets were purchased with illegally obtained funds or used in the crime. You have to indict the actual assets...

Asset forfeiture takes the profit out of crime and that is a good thing. LEOs should be looking at where the money went when they arrest someone who made a profit through criminal means.

Posted: 3/20/2008 5:30:55 AM EDT

[#49]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I don't want to see this issue dropped and forgotten about. I want to see whoever is responsible be held accountable for spending $36000 on 2000 engraved Leathermans @ $18 a piece. We as tax payers paid for the ATF to flaunt the fact they don't believe in the fundamental principal of presumption on innocence.

Can we tack this and maybe organize something? I've never been good at organizing anything but I'll do what I can. What is the best way to contact the conservative media? I think our best bet would be Glenn Beck. What would get his attention, letters, e-mail or phone?

Once this gets out it will even piss off some of the more complacent gun owners. No one likes the man telling him what to do, but when the man revels in it, people push back. If you have any ideas please post them or send IMs.

Thanks,
Adam

This is not fraud, waste, or abuse. That is a very very good price for a leatherman tool. It is cheaper than you can buy one at the store.

You can whine all you want but at the end of the day you will be wasting your time. There is no legitimate reason not to buy leatherman tools for LEOs.

You end up making gun owners look like jerks to the people that make gun laws. Good plan

CIVIL forfeiture, which is the overwhelming proponderance of forfeiture cases in the US, should be outlawed. I am fine with forfeiture after criminal conviction. But the asset forfeiture the ATF goons are talking about is civil, and prior to any criminal indictment, let alone conviction, in many cases.

BTW, When I wrote my letters to my Senators and Representative, I did not even mention guns. I couched it in terms of wanton waste of tax money and abusive practices that corrupt the agencies that engage in it.

That is nowhere near how the asset forfeiture process works.

You are misrepresenting the entire scope of forfeiture laws. The assets are frozen, not seized and after adjudication can be forfeited. The agency has to clearly prove that those specific assets were purchased with illegally obtained funds or used in the crime. You have to indict the actual assets...

Asset forfeiture takes the profit out of crime and that is a good thing. LEOs should be looking at where the money went when they arrest someone who made a profit through criminal means.

Uh huh, just like they have to "prove" you transferred an unregistered mg before convicting you on felony weapons charges.

Posted: 3/20/2008 5:35:25 AM EDT

[#50]

Quoted:

Quoted:
I don't want to see this issue dropped and forgotten about. I want to see whoever is responsible be held accountable for spending $36000 on 2000 engraved Leathermans @ $18 a piece. We as tax payers paid for the ATF to flaunt the fact they don't believe in the fundamental principal of presumption on innocence.

Can we tack this and maybe organize something? I've never been good at organizing anything but I'll do what I can. What is the best way to contact the conservative media? I think our best bet would be Glenn Beck. What would get his attention, letters, e-mail or phone?

Once this gets out it will even piss off some of the more complacent gun owners. No one likes the man telling him what to do, but when the man revels in it, people push back. If you have any ideas please post them or send IMs.

Thanks,
Adam

This is not fraud, waste, or abuse. That is a very very good price for a leatherman tool. It is cheaper than you can buy one at the store.

You can whine all you want but at the end of the day you will be wasting your time. There is no legitimate reason not to buy leatherman tools for LEOs.

You end up making gun owners look like jerks to the people that make gun laws. Good plan

CIVIL forfeiture, which is the overwhelming proponderance of forfeiture cases in the US, should be outlawed. I am fine with forfeiture after criminal conviction. But the asset forfeiture the ATF goons are talking about is civil, and prior to any criminal indictment, let alone conviction, in many cases.

BTW, When I wrote my letters to my Senators and Representative, I did not even mention guns. I couched it in terms of wanton waste of tax money and abusive practices that corrupt the agencies that engage in it.

That is nowhere near how the asset forfeiture process works.

You are misrepresenting the entire scope of forfeiture laws. The assets are frozen, not seized and after adjudication can be forfeited. The agency has to clearly prove that those specific assets were purchased with illegally obtained funds or used in the crime. You have to indict the actual assets...

Asset forfeiture takes the profit out of crime and that is a good thing. LEOs should be looking at where the money went when they arrest someone who made a profit through criminal means.

I know fully how civil asset forfeiture works. It is the exact oppposite of how criminal forfeiture works. In a civil forefeiture, the burden of proving the asset was NOT the proceeds of criminal activity is on the owner. In other words, guilt is assumed and it is up to the person whose assets were taken to PROVE that they obained them with funds derived from legal activies. In thousands of cases in the past 20 years people have had their assets taken, but were NEVER convicted of any crime. In about 80% of civil asset forfeitures, a criminal conviction is NEVER obtained.

Perhaps the most damning indictment of our current civil forfeiture process is that, according to 18 U.S.C. §981(a)(2)), innocence is NOT a defense in a civil case. Yes, you read that correctly. The government can end up with a not guilty verdict on the criminal charge that precipitated the seizure and you cannot use that not guilty verdict as evidence in your civil proceeding to retrieve your property.

I am really not shocked that you would be defending the indefensible. I would actually be shocked if you had come down on the other side of this issue.

[ARCHIVED THREAD] - ATF's new Leatherman's (Page 2 of 7)

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