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Posted: 12/8/2013 5:07:07 PM EDT
[#1]
My suggestion? Pistol in a 300blk. 8 in barrel performance is much better w the BO than the 556.
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Posted: 12/8/2013 5:07:59 PM EDT
[#2]
I used to use my 7.5" AR pistol for HD. With a single point sling, AFG, and Aimpoint I could easily ring steel at 100yards all day long. Obviously you want a heavier bullet for anti person use with such a short barrel so I kept it loaded with 75grn TAP. At the time SBRs we're not possible in my state. Now that they are I don't want to go through the hoops of getting a C&R FFL and forming a trust to add a stock to it. Plus with the current climate I really don't want any registered NFA items. After I built my 14.5" pinned upper though I realized that I could easily clear my home with that so it's now my HD gun.
I'm keeping the pistol as a truck gun for when I get my CCL since loaded rifles would be a no go in this state. That's the ultimate "get the fuck off my truck" gun IMO. |
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Posted: 12/8/2013 5:11:31 PM EDT
[#3]
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Yes, absolutely. My new baby. http://i.imgur.com/HsPTrgk.jpg To me, I'd rather have pistol than SBR. No wait. No paperwork to leave state. Same advantages carry-wise as a regular handgun. Not to mention, not all states (like mine) allow SBRs. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Does the sig brace compare to a legit stock'd SBR? Yes, absolutely. My new baby. http://i.imgur.com/HsPTrgk.jpg To me, I'd rather have pistol than SBR. No wait. No paperwork to leave state. Same advantages carry-wise as a regular handgun. Not to mention, not all states (like mine) allow SBRs. So are people shouldering those Sig braces or actually using them as designed? I'm trying to see the utility in it. With a single point sling I can pull against my shoulder and get "stock like" performance out of it much like MP5Ks are used. |
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Posted: 12/8/2013 5:11:47 PM EDT
[#4]
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So, what would a dealer transferring a stripped lower have checked on this 4473: http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l596/WaylandTR85/ATF-FORM-4473-pg2_zps9ec80ca4.gif I'll wait for your answer. Or apology, but I won't hold my breath. There are shitloads of lowers out there that were transferred checked as either "Long Gun" or "Hand Gun", because there was no other option at the time. For people who own such lowers it is important to know which it was transferred as before building a pistol out of said lower. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So it sounds like I need to dig out my paperwork and check how they were marked at transfer, just to be sure. It's been so long since I bought them I don't remember what we did. You don't actually. Unless there's some CA state law. Again: http://i.imgur.com/rbQeVLu.png TR1985 is wrong. So, what would a dealer transferring a stripped lower have checked on this 4473: http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l596/WaylandTR85/ATF-FORM-4473-pg2_zps9ec80ca4.gif I'll wait for your answer. Or apology, but I won't hold my breath. There are shitloads of lowers out there that were transferred checked as either "Long Gun" or "Hand Gun", because there was no other option at the time. For people who own such lowers it is important to know which it was transferred as before building a pistol out of said lower. Ahhh, yeah, that's called moving the goalposts. Nice try. 
On the incredibly off-chance that you're asked about it: "Oh, well it was transferred that way because it was before the updated 4473 with "Other" came out. It was never built as a rifle." Boom. Done. Now stop being wrong. |
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Posted: 12/8/2013 5:14:16 PM EDT
[#5]
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Alrighty then, thanks for the help. Now to pick out an upper and delve into the whole 300 blk thing, which I promised myself I wasn't going to do. 
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So it sounds like I need to dig out my paperwork and check how they were marked at transfer, just to be sure. It's been so long since I bought them I don't remember what we did. You don't actually. Unless there's some CA state law. Again: http://i.imgur.com/rbQeVLu.png TR1985 is wrong. Alrighty then, thanks for the help. Now to pick out an upper and delve into the whole 300 blk thing, which I promised myself I wasn't going to do.
Might want to check the post right above yours... Depending on when you bought said lowers, they very well may have been transferred as "Long Gun" or "Handgun", and it would be good to know which before building a handgun out of said lower. The difficulty is that you probably don't have a copy of the 4473 laying around, and most dealers aren't very willing to dig one up from years back on a whim for a customer. If you bought it after November of 2008 I believe, it should have been transferred as "Other" if no one screwed up. Again, hard to find this out with most dealers though. One could make the argument that, as a stripped virgin lower is neither a Long Gun or Handgun, that what the dealer checked doesn't matter... However, is your dealer really going to remember exactly what he transferred to you a dozen years ago? Having an AR pistol with a paper trail that says "long gun" at some point, even in error, would make me feel uncomfortable, as it would actually be rather hard to disprove the notion it was a long gun at that time. |
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Posted: 12/8/2013 5:15:27 PM EDT
[#6]
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Nothing makes my loins pulse like the thought of lighting off unsuppressed 5.56 rounds out of a short barrel... indoors. Could be a Mosin M44. |
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Posted: 12/8/2013 5:16:04 PM EDT
[#7]
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Ahhh, yeah, that's called moving the goalposts. Nice try.
On the incredibly off-chance that you're asked about it: "Oh, well it was transferred that way because it was before the updated 4473 with "Other" came out. It was never built as a rifle." Boom. Done. Now stop being wrong. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So it sounds like I need to dig out my paperwork and check how they were marked at transfer, just to be sure. It's been so long since I bought them I don't remember what we did. You don't actually. Unless there's some CA state law. Again: http://i.imgur.com/rbQeVLu.png TR1985 is wrong. So, what would a dealer transferring a stripped lower have checked on this 4473: http://i1125.photobucket.com/albums/l596/WaylandTR85/ATF-FORM-4473-pg2_zps9ec80ca4.gif I'll wait for your answer. Or apology, but I won't hold my breath. There are shitloads of lowers out there that were transferred checked as either "Long Gun" or "Hand Gun", because there was no other option at the time. For people who own such lowers it is important to know which it was transferred as before building a pistol out of said lower. Ahhh, yeah, that's called moving the goalposts. Nice try.
On the incredibly off-chance that you're asked about it: "Oh, well it was transferred that way because it was before the updated 4473 with "Other" came out. It was never built as a rifle." Boom. Done. Now stop being wrong. 
So it's your word against a Federal document signed by a licensed Federal dealer being used in a case by Federal agents? Good luck with that. Now stop giving people advice that can land them in Federal prison. Further I would just like to note that I am absolutely right about the fact that lowers have been checked as "Hand Gun" and "Long Gun" on 4473s and that depending on the year it was a perfectly acceptable practice. |
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Posted: 12/8/2013 5:16:16 PM EDT
[#8]
Another option is a Sig 556 with a folded stock.
Folded, it's about the length of a AR pistol. Unfolded, it's a rifle.  Or a Sig P556 pistol.  |
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Posted: 12/8/2013 5:17:15 PM EDT
[#9]
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So it's your word against a Federal document signed by a licensed Federal dealer being used in a case by Federal agents? Good luck with that. Now stop giving people advice that can land them in Federal prison. Find one case of that happening in this instance. That being someone who bought a stripped lower, which was transferred as a "long gun" before the updated 4473, that was never made into a rifle, that they turned into a pistol, and were then prosecuted for. Go ahead, I'll wait. |
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Posted: 12/8/2013 5:19:44 PM EDT
[#10]
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Find one case of that happening in this instance. That being someone who bought a stripped lower, which was transferred as a "long gun" before the updated 4473, that was never made into a rifle, that they turned into a pistol, and were then prosecuted for. Go ahead, I'll wait. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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So it's your word against a Federal document signed by a licensed Federal dealer being used in a case by Federal agents? Good luck with that. Now stop giving people advice that can land them in Federal prison. Find one case of that happening in this instance. That being someone who bought a stripped lower, which was transferred as a "long gun" before the updated 4473, that was never made into a rifle, that they turned into a pistol, and were then prosecuted for. Go ahead, I'll wait. No one has ever gone to jail over a VFG on an AR pistol... I take it you advise people to mount them on their AR pistols? Same argument. Now who is moving the goal posts? Now you're all "sure, lowers have been checked as long guns, but it doesn't really matter... It all depends on what the definition of the word is." |
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Posted: 12/8/2013 5:21:37 PM EDT
[#11]
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Go run an AR pistol against an SBR with a shot timer. Report back. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I don't get the pistol hate Go run an AR pistol against an SBR with a shot timer. Report back. You are supposed to use a shot timer when a thug breaks down your door? Who knew? Ugh, it is the same exact gun, shoots the same exact bullet out of the same exact barrel. The performance is identical, no difference in real world performance between an AR pistol and an AR SBR with the same upper. Pay uncle sugar your tax money if you want, doesn't lessen the value of AR pistols |
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Posted: 12/8/2013 5:26:48 PM EDT
[#12]
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So are people shouldering those Sig braces or actually using them as designed? I'm trying to see the utility in it. With a single point sling I can pull against my shoulder and get "stock like" performance out of it much like MP5Ks are used. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Does the sig brace compare to a legit stock'd SBR? Yes, absolutely. My new baby. http://i.imgur.com/HsPTrgk.jpg To me, I'd rather have pistol than SBR. No wait. No paperwork to leave state. Same advantages carry-wise as a regular handgun. Not to mention, not all states (like mine) allow SBRs. So are people shouldering those Sig braces or actually using them as designed? I'm trying to see the utility in it. With a single point sling I can pull against my shoulder and get "stock like" performance out of it much like MP5Ks are used. I of course bought mine to use as designed. Someone similar to, yet legally distinct from myself, has used the brace in a manner which it's not intended and reported it's no different than using an AR with a stock and would have no desire to SBR it, if it was legal in this state. Seriously, it looks a little goofy, but the function is all there. |
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Posted: 12/8/2013 5:33:24 PM EDT
[#13]
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An AR SBR is more useful, faster, better, and better. It's so much better I had to say it twice. THAT is what that little shot timer proves. Don't be fatuous, Jeffrey. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I don't get the pistol hate Go run an AR pistol against an SBR with a shot timer. Report back. I'm not racing the clock to kill home intruders An AR SBR is more useful, faster, better, and better. It's so much better I had to say it twice. THAT is what that little shot timer proves. Don't be fatuous, Jeffrey. I think you're wrong there... The SBR, while it works good with a shot timer ok the range, but let's think about its practical usefulness in a defensive situation... It's a RIFLE, and therefore it must be used within those confines. Not only that, but it's an NFA weapon! Can you use it for self / home defense? Yes. Have you read about the legal problems people have dealt with after using NFA weapons in defense of their home, life, & property? It's pretty ugly, and you'll be lucky to not go bankrupt defending yourself, especially if it goes before a grand jury! That said... In most states, you cannot legally carry a loaded rifle, certainly not without attracting unwanted attention from law enforcement. So, that limits where, and how often you an have it loaded, on your person, in any way to be practical for self defense - except at home! So, what are your choices when not at home? I have a concealed carry permit allowing me to carry in ~30 states... I can legally carry a loaded AR pistol on the passenger seat, or tucked next to me when traveling around much f the nation, thousands of miles, and the police cannot do shit to stop me. The pistol can be broken down or carried in a tennis racket case, loaded with 60 rounds, and nobody knows... I can shoot somebody in self defense, and not have to worry about prosecutors crucifying me or getting it escalated to a grand jury level just because of the semantics of whether or not it has a buttstock... I can shoot it almost just as fast as an SBR by shouldering the buffer tube and using a red dot with QD riser... I can legally use it deer hunting in DNR zones designated for shotgun & handgun use only (since it IS a handgun)! If a gun is needed for self / home defense, the best gun you can have is the gun you have loaded, and ON you when the need arises. Most people I know with NFA toys have them locked up in a safe at home - where it will do them shit for good if they're on a road trip, in a hotel, and some meth junkie is trying to break down the door because he thinks his lying cheating slut of a girl is still in your room, just because she stayed in that room the night before. Where is your NFA toy now? Can you travel across state lines with them without notifying the ATF? Can you carry it with you, loaded, in your lap as you drive across the US? Can you have it tucked under your winter coat on a run to the local walmart? Can you carry it loaded, openly, publicly? I know for a FACT that the AR pistol is more useful, in that it can be LEGALLY carried & used far more often, in a far greater geographical area of the US. It's not just limited to home use, and as a range toy. NFA has the neato-toy wow factor for the call of duty wanna-be's, but from a practical usage perspective, it's highly over-rated... |
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Posted: 12/8/2013 5:40:00 PM EDT
[#14]
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I think you're wrong there... The SBR, while it works good with a shot timer ok the range, but let's think about its practical usefulness in a defensive situation... It's a RIFLE, and therefore it must be used within those confines. Not only that, but it's an NFA weapon! Can you use it for self / home defense? Yes. Have you read about the legal problems people have dealt with after using NFA weapons in defense of their home, life, & property? It's pretty ugly, and you'll be lucky to not go bankrupt defending yourself, especially if it goes before a grand jury! That said... In most states, you cannot legally carry a loaded rifle, certainly not without attracting unwanted attention from law enforcement. So, that limits where, and how often you an have it loaded, on your person, in any way to be practical for self defense - except at home! So, what are your choices when not at home? I have a concealed carry permit allowing me to carry in ~30 states... I can legally carry a loaded AR pistol on the passenger seat, or tucked next to me when traveling around much f the nation, thousands of miles, and the police cannot do shit to stop me. The pistol can be broken down or carried in a tennis racket case, loaded with 60 rounds, and nobody knows... I can shoot somebody in self defense, and not have to worry about prosecutors crucifying me or getting it escalated to a grand jury level just because of the semantics of whether or not it has a buttstock... I can shoot it almost just as fast as an SBR by shouldering the buffer tube and using a red dot with QD riser... I can legally use it deer hunting in DNR zones designated for shotgun & handgun use only (since it IS a handgun)! If a gun is needed for self / home defense, the best gun you can have is the gun you have loaded, and ON you when the need arises. Most people I know with NFA toys have them locked up in a safe at home - where it will do them shit for good if they're on a road trip, in a hotel, and some meth junkie is trying to break down the door because he thinks his lying cheating slut of a girl is still in your room, just because she stayed in that room the night before. Where is your NFA toy now? Can you travel across state lines with them without notifying the ATF? Can you carry it with you, loaded, in your lap as you drive across the US? Can you have it tucked under your winter coat on a run to the local walmart? Can you carry it loaded, openly, publicly? I know for a FACT that the AR pistol is more useful, in that it can be LEGALLY carried & used far more often, in a far greater geographical area of the US. It's not just limited to home use, and as a range toy. NFA has the neato-toy wow factor for the call of duty wanna-be's, but from a practical usage perspective, it's highly over-rated... That's all well and good - but this thread is about home defense. Also, ROFL @ carrying an AR pistol into a Walmart. |
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Posted: 12/8/2013 5:40:39 PM EDT
[#15]
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I'd recommend something else, like a Sub2000 or a CX4... but ultimately, an AR pistol wouldn't be that bad if you stamped it and put a real stock on it. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I have been toying with idea of getting a AR pistol to keep for home defence. My house is a lot of doorways and hallways. It would be tough to clear and navigate with my full size AR. I like the thought of the mobility of a pistol with the round size and capacity of an AR. Add a light and maybe a fore grip. Anyone do this? Recommend brands? I'd recommend something else, like a Sub2000 or a CX4... but ultimately, an AR pistol wouldn't be that bad if you stamped it and put a real stock on it. Just as uncomfortable if not more then an AR pistol. Getting a sight picture with stock sights is WAY worse. |
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Posted: 12/8/2013 5:57:03 PM EDT
[#16]
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Posted: 12/8/2013 5:57:06 PM EDT
[#17]
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I think you're wrong there... The SBR, while it works good with a shot timer ok the range, but let's think about its practical usefulness in a defensive situation... It's a RIFLE, and therefore it must be used within those confines. Not only that, but it's an NFA weapon! Can you use it for self / home defense? Yes. Have you read about the legal problems people have dealt with after using NFA weapons in defense of their home, life, & property? It's pretty ugly, and you'll be lucky to not go bankrupt defending yourself, especially if it goes before a grand jury! That said... In most states, you cannot legally carry a loaded rifle, certainly not without attracting unwanted attention from law enforcement. So, that limits where, and how often you an have it loaded, on your person, in any way to be practical for self defense - except at home! So, what are your choices when not at home? I have a concealed carry permit allowing me to carry in ~30 states... I can legally carry a loaded AR pistol on the passenger seat, or tucked next to me when traveling around much f the nation, thousands of miles, and the police cannot do shit to stop me. The pistol can be broken down or carried in a tennis racket case, loaded with 60 rounds, and nobody knows... I can shoot somebody in self defense, and not have to worry about prosecutors crucifying me or getting it escalated to a grand jury level just because of the semantics of whether or not it has a buttstock... I can shoot it almost just as fast as an SBR by shouldering the buffer tube and using a red dot with QD riser... I can legally use it deer hunting in DNR zones designated for shotgun & handgun use only (since it IS a handgun)! If a gun is needed for self / home defense, the best gun you can have is the gun you have loaded, and ON you when the need arises. Most people I know with NFA toys have them locked up in a safe at home - where it will do them shit for good if they're on a road trip, in a hotel, and some meth junkie is trying to break down the door because he thinks his lying cheating slut of a girl is still in your room, just because she stayed in that room the night before. Where is your NFA toy now? Can you travel across state lines with them without notifying the ATF? Can you carry it with you, loaded, in your lap as you drive across the US? Can you have it tucked under your winter coat on a run to the local walmart? Can you carry it loaded, openly, publicly? I know for a FACT that the AR pistol is more useful, in that it can be LEGALLY carried & used far more often, in a far greater geographical area of the US. It's not just limited to home use, and as a range toy. NFA has the neato-toy wow factor for the call of duty wanna-be's, but from a practical usage perspective, it's highly over-rated... Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I don't get the pistol hate Go run an AR pistol against an SBR with a shot timer. Report back. I'm not racing the clock to kill home intruders An AR SBR is more useful, faster, better, and better. It's so much better I had to say it twice. THAT is what that little shot timer proves. Don't be fatuous, Jeffrey. I think you're wrong there... The SBR, while it works good with a shot timer ok the range, but let's think about its practical usefulness in a defensive situation... It's a RIFLE, and therefore it must be used within those confines. Not only that, but it's an NFA weapon! Can you use it for self / home defense? Yes. Have you read about the legal problems people have dealt with after using NFA weapons in defense of their home, life, & property? It's pretty ugly, and you'll be lucky to not go bankrupt defending yourself, especially if it goes before a grand jury! That said... In most states, you cannot legally carry a loaded rifle, certainly not without attracting unwanted attention from law enforcement. So, that limits where, and how often you an have it loaded, on your person, in any way to be practical for self defense - except at home! So, what are your choices when not at home? I have a concealed carry permit allowing me to carry in ~30 states... I can legally carry a loaded AR pistol on the passenger seat, or tucked next to me when traveling around much f the nation, thousands of miles, and the police cannot do shit to stop me. The pistol can be broken down or carried in a tennis racket case, loaded with 60 rounds, and nobody knows... I can shoot somebody in self defense, and not have to worry about prosecutors crucifying me or getting it escalated to a grand jury level just because of the semantics of whether or not it has a buttstock... I can shoot it almost just as fast as an SBR by shouldering the buffer tube and using a red dot with QD riser... I can legally use it deer hunting in DNR zones designated for shotgun & handgun use only (since it IS a handgun)! If a gun is needed for self / home defense, the best gun you can have is the gun you have loaded, and ON you when the need arises. Most people I know with NFA toys have them locked up in a safe at home - where it will do them shit for good if they're on a road trip, in a hotel, and some meth junkie is trying to break down the door because he thinks his lying cheating slut of a girl is still in your room, just because she stayed in that room the night before. Where is your NFA toy now? Can you travel across state lines with them without notifying the ATF? Can you carry it with you, loaded, in your lap as you drive across the US? Can you have it tucked under your winter coat on a run to the local walmart? Can you carry it loaded, openly, publicly? I know for a FACT that the AR pistol is more useful, in that it can be LEGALLY carried & used far more often, in a far greater geographical area of the US. It's not just limited to home use, and as a range toy. NFA has the neato-toy wow factor for the call of duty wanna-be's, but from a practical usage perspective, it's highly over-rated... Excellent perspective. |
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Posted: 12/8/2013 5:57:42 PM EDT
[#18]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Might want to check the post right above yours... Depending on when you bought said lowers, they very well may have been transferred as "Long Gun" or "Handgun", and it would be good to know which before building a handgun out of said lower. The difficulty is that you probably don't have a copy of the 4473 laying around, and most dealers aren't very willing to dig one up from years back on a whim for a customer. If you bought it after November of 2008 I believe, it should have been transferred as "Other" if no one screwed up. Again, hard to find this out with most dealers though. One could make the argument that, as a stripped virgin lower is neither a Long Gun or Handgun, that what the dealer checked doesn't matter... However, is your dealer really going to remember exactly what he transferred to you a dozen years ago? Having an AR pistol with a paper trail that says "long gun" at some point, even in error, would make me feel uncomfortable, as it would actually be rather hard to disprove the notion it was a long gun at that time. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Alrighty then, thanks for the help. Now to pick out an upper and delve into the whole 300 blk thing, which I promised myself I wasn't going to do. Might want to check the post right above yours... Depending on when you bought said lowers, they very well may have been transferred as "Long Gun" or "Handgun", and it would be good to know which before building a handgun out of said lower. The difficulty is that you probably don't have a copy of the 4473 laying around, and most dealers aren't very willing to dig one up from years back on a whim for a customer. If you bought it after November of 2008 I believe, it should have been transferred as "Other" if no one screwed up. Again, hard to find this out with most dealers though. One could make the argument that, as a stripped virgin lower is neither a Long Gun or Handgun, that what the dealer checked doesn't matter... However, is your dealer really going to remember exactly what he transferred to you a dozen years ago? Having an AR pistol with a paper trail that says "long gun" at some point, even in error, would make me feel uncomfortable, as it would actually be rather hard to disprove the notion it was a long gun at that time. I bought them before '08. And I agree I'm not going to ask my FFL to dig out the paperwork, they probably don't even have it on site. I guess my only option is to contact the BATFE and request a copy of the paperwork attached to the serial #. At that point it might be easier and more expedient to just buy another one and check 'pistol' on the 4473.
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Posted: 12/8/2013 5:59:18 PM EDT
[#19]
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That's all well and good - but this thread is about home defense. Also, ROFL @ carrying an AR pistol into a Walmart. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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I think you're wrong there... That's all well and good - but this thread is about home defense. Also, ROFL @ carrying an AR pistol into a Walmart. Oh. We'll... In that case, you're better server with a Saiga 12, with a side-folding stock, and 000 buckshot. At close range, pulling the trigger 8 times gets you 72 holes in the bad guy instead of just 8. Home defense is always better served with a shotgun. 
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Posted: 12/8/2013 6:10:07 PM EDT
[#20]
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Why is that? Shorter and more maneuverable than a shotgun. Greater ammo capacity than a shotgun or pistol. Much more capable round than the typical automatic handgun. Faster follow ups than a shotgun or handgun. Less chance of overpenitration than buckshot or a handgun. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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OP, I hope you have a suppressor, and if you don't you should just practice saying "WHUT? " now. Unless I were living in Somalia, an AR anything would be my last choice for HD. Why is that? Shorter and more maneuverable than a shotgun. Greater ammo capacity than a shotgun or pistol. Much more capable round than the typical automatic handgun. Faster follow ups than a shotgun or handgun. Less chance of overpenitration than buckshot or a handgun. Less chance of over penetration from a high velocity rifle round than from 9 mm or 45 self HP rounds? Explain that to me please. As for the rest, if I need more than my 15 rounds in my G19 (or hell even the 7 from my 1911), than I am in some pretty deep shit that I doubt I'd be able to get out of even with an AR pistol (assuming that I can get over the shock of firing an AR in a confined space). Whatever floats your boat though. I am not disputing that an AR has a role in home defense, hell I keep an AR and loaded magazine close by, but my primary home defense weapon is either my G19 or my 1911. Having shot an AR already in what was a confined space without hearing protection and feeling like I had gone through a bomb blast, I just cant picture myself using one as a primary HD weapon. At least not one that is unsuprressed. |
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Posted: 12/8/2013 6:29:26 PM EDT
[#21]
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I bought them before '08. And I agree I'm not going to ask my FFL to dig out the paperwork, they probably don't even have it on site. I guess my only option is to contact the BATFE and request a copy of the paperwork attached to the serial #. At that point it might be easier and more expedient to just buy another one and check 'pistol' on the 4473. Quote HistoryQuoted:
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Alrighty then, thanks for the help. Now to pick out an upper and delve into the whole 300 blk thing, which I promised myself I wasn't going to do.
Might want to check the post right above yours... Depending on when you bought said lowers, they very well may have been transferred as "Long Gun" or "Handgun", and it would be good to know which before building a handgun out of said lower. The difficulty is that you probably don't have a copy of the 4473 laying around, and most dealers aren't very willing to dig one up from years back on a whim for a customer. If you bought it after November of 2008 I believe, it should have been transferred as "Other" if no one screwed up. Again, hard to find this out with most dealers though. One could make the argument that, as a stripped virgin lower is neither a Long Gun or Handgun, that what the dealer checked doesn't matter... However, is your dealer really going to remember exactly what he transferred to you a dozen years ago? Having an AR pistol with a paper trail that says "long gun" at some point, even in error, would make me feel uncomfortable, as it would actually be rather hard to disprove the notion it was a long gun at that time. I bought them before '08. And I agree I'm not going to ask my FFL to dig out the paperwork, they probably don't even have it on site. I guess my only option is to contact the BATFE and request a copy of the paperwork attached to the serial #. At that point it might be easier and more expedient to just buy another one and check 'pistol' on the 4473. The BATFE probably doesn't have the paperwork either and couldn't find it if you asked.
Getting a new one is the easiest way to make sure it's all on the level. "Other" is the correct box for the FFL to check these days, though it won't get you in trouble if he checked "handgun". Pistol marked lowers tend to help keep FFLs from screwing this up, and help LEOs figure out that it is, indeed, a pistol. |
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Posted: 12/8/2013 6:31:28 PM EDT
[#22]
Quote HistoryI of course bought mine to use as designed. Someone similar to, yet legally distinct from myself, has used the brace in a manner which it's not intended and reported it's no different than using an AR with a stock and would have no desire to SBR it, if it was legal in this state. Seriously, it looks a little goofy, but the function is all there. I thought some unscrupulous types were doing that. It makes more sense than the wrist thingy. I can't imagine how bringing it up with the strap on to use sights and a two handed grip would be comfortable. Glad you're not one of them but you should stop associating with the guy who is. He sounds like trouble. |
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Posted: 12/8/2013 6:32:39 PM EDT
[#23]
Why not an AK pistol?
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Posted: 12/8/2013 6:40:00 PM EDT
[#24]
how about the idea of an AR pistol with 9mm rounds? it's not as loud/flash as 556, and compared to 9mm pistol you gain better sight radius and better control, easier to handle, thoughts?
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Posted: 12/8/2013 6:41:34 PM EDT
[#25]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
how about the idea of an AR pistol with 9mm rounds? it's not as loud/flash as 556, and compared to 9mm pistol you gain better sight radius and better control, easier to handle, thoughts? Id go for that for HD over a 5.56 AR pistol any day. |
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Posted: 12/8/2013 7:16:45 PM EDT
[#26]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
<snip> Properly set up and run the AR Pistol is a formidable weapon... http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d90/rusticarts/arpistol2.jpg What is that on the buffer tube? |
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Posted: 12/8/2013 7:24:44 PM EDT
[#27]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
how about the idea of an AR pistol with 9mm rounds? it's not as loud/flash as 556, and compared to 9mm pistol you gain better sight radius and better control, easier to handle, thoughts? Not for everyone, but this works for me for HD. 
Low flash, less noise, quick handling gun, and if the perp was a "good boy turning his life around"...well, you defended yourself with an antique. That said, I wish someone made an AR pistol in the round, I like the idea of using it in a modern short weapon with better sight radius than a handgun! Yeah, I know, 300.
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Posted: 12/8/2013 7:25:20 PM EDT
[#28]
Quote HistoryQuoted: What is that on the buffer tube? Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: <snip> Properly set up and run the AR Pistol is a formidable weapon... http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d90/rusticarts/arpistol2.jpg What is that on the buffer tube? |
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Posted: 12/8/2013 7:30:05 PM EDT
[#29]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
As for failures... That I am more concerned about. Do you mind if I ask what type of ammo was involved? XM193 |
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Posted: 12/8/2013 7:33:35 PM EDT
[#30]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
XM193 Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
As for failures... That I am more concerned about. Do you mind if I ask what type of ammo was involved? XM193 Interesting... Was the gun sent back to IWI? |
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Posted: 12/8/2013 7:43:54 PM EDT
[#31]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I recently got a Keltec PLR-16 and toyed with the HD idea. Then I shot it at an indoor range. 
I'll stick with my double barrel shotgun for now. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Nothing makes my loins pulse like the thought of lighting off unsuppressed 5.56 rounds out of a short barrel... indoors. I recently got a Keltec PLR-16 and toyed with the HD idea. Then I shot it at an indoor range.
I'll stick with my double barrel shotgun for now. So are some of these stocks in earlier posts on page 1&2 fixed some how? Made to be not collapsible so you can legally put them on an AR pistol? I hate just having the Spikes padded buffer tube on my pistol marked lower with a 10.5" barrel. If there is such a thing, anyone know who makes/sells them? About this photo....It looks like about the size of the muzzle flash that came out of my M1A Socom 16" the first day i shot it at the outdoor range- it was almost dusk, the muzzle flash was at least three feet long & two feet wide. It blinded me instantly through the Aimpoint- And i had bought the Socom for HD/dual - multiple uses... but got rid of it real quick & went back to a long barrel M1A years later for hunting and competition shooting... stayed with the G19 and M590A1 for HD |
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Posted: 12/8/2013 7:51:23 PM EDT
[#32]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Interesting... Was the gun sent back to IWI? Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
As for failures... That I am more concerned about. Do you mind if I ask what type of ammo was involved? XM193 Interesting... Was the gun sent back to IWI? Don't know. I handed it back to its owner and told him good luck. |
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Posted: 12/8/2013 8:02:40 PM EDT
[#33]
I use one with a sing, red dot, can, mag coupler and a light, NO VFG
I've had some success using it in local competitions. I feel fine defending the house and making shots out to 200 yards with it. An sbr would be better and I do have paperwork in for that. When it comes back, I'll happily put stock on it. You can use buffer tube to index against. But it isn't a substitute for a stock. A can only makes the gun hearing safe. It does not make it quiet. I use the model 1 pistol upper in 5.56. |
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Posted: 12/8/2013 8:18:46 PM EDT
[#34]
I run a 10" Adams piston upper AR pistol with a suppressor, red dot and light. It's still louder than a motherfucker, but it'll provide plenty of firepower in a home defense role. |
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Posted: 12/11/2013 3:58:27 AM EDT
[#35]
Quote HistoryQuoted: Less chance of over penetration from a high velocity rifle round than from 9 mm or 45 self HP rounds? Explain that to me please. As for the rest, if I need more than my 15 rounds in my G19 (or hell even the 7 from my 1911), than I am in some pretty deep shit that I doubt I'd be able to get out of even with an AR pistol (assuming that I can get over the shock of firing an AR in a confined space). Whatever floats your boat though. I am not disputing that an AR has a role in home defense, hell I keep an AR and loaded magazine close by, but my primary home defense weapon is either my G19 or my 1911. Having shot an AR already in what was a confined space without hearing protection and feeling like I had gone through a bomb blast, I just cant picture myself using one as a primary HD weapon. At least not one that is unsuprressed. Quote HistoryQuoted: Quoted: Quoted: OP, I hope you have a suppressor, and if you don't you should just practice saying "WHUT? " now. Unless I were living in Somalia, an AR anything would be my last choice for HD. Why is that? Shorter and more maneuverable than a shotgun. Greater ammo capacity than a shotgun or pistol. Much more capable round than the typical automatic handgun. Faster follow ups than a shotgun or handgun. Less chance of overpenitration than buckshot or a handgun. Less chance of over penetration from a high velocity rifle round than from 9 mm or 45 self HP rounds? Explain that to me please. As for the rest, if I need more than my 15 rounds in my G19 (or hell even the 7 from my 1911), than I am in some pretty deep shit that I doubt I'd be able to get out of even with an AR pistol (assuming that I can get over the shock of firing an AR in a confined space). Whatever floats your boat though. I am not disputing that an AR has a role in home defense, hell I keep an AR and loaded magazine close by, but my primary home defense weapon is either my G19 or my 1911. Having shot an AR already in what was a confined space without hearing protection and feeling like I had gone through a bomb blast, I just cant picture myself using one as a primary HD weapon. At least not one that is unsuprressed. Rifle's are much easier to keep on target than pistols and split times are much faster. At CQB ranges I can dump a beta mag on a full auto m16 and keep them all on the target. Pistols take a lot more time to be proficient with and will always be slower for followup shots. 5.56 will also penetrate soft armor even when fired from short barrels. If a home invader is wearing standard soft armor it will be completely ineffective against my SBR. Wound cavities are larger with the 5.56 and overpenetration after striking a body is less of an issue with the 5.56 due to the fragmenting rounds I use. A statistic I read once said 80% of people shot with a handgun survive - and 80% shot with a rifle don't. Unfortunately I don't have a source so I can't verify if its true. I keep my SBR beside my bed with the suppressor mounted and aimpoint in the on position. If something happens its the first thing I will grab.
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Posted: 12/11/2013 4:22:06 AM EDT
[#36]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I recently got a Keltec PLR-16 and toyed with the HD idea. Then I shot it at an indoor range. http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3790/10747446135_4ec95da071_z.jpg I'll stick with my double barrel shotgun for now. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Nothing makes my loins pulse like the thought of lighting off unsuppressed 5.56 rounds out of a short barrel... indoors. I recently got a Keltec PLR-16 and toyed with the HD idea. Then I shot it at an indoor range. http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3790/10747446135_4ec95da071_z.jpg I'll stick with my double barrel shotgun for now. Would putting one of the Noveske pig muzzle devices take away all that muzzle flash? I want one of those PLRs' and this was something I was wondering. |
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Posted: 12/11/2013 5:43:31 AM EDT
[#37]
If you want to still use .223, don't bother. Ballistic performance suffers, and the noise will probably cause brain damage. If you're willing to invest the money to shoot .300BLK or 6.5 Grendel or 6.8SPC, then go for it, but just get the damn stamp anyway. Hell, get two stamps... Lowers and engraving are cheap!
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Posted: 12/11/2013 6:08:33 AM EDT
[#38]
Maybe suppressed on a 10.5, but at that point you might as well double the tax stamps and wait the same amount of time.
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Posted: 12/11/2013 6:46:20 AM EDT
[#39]
Sig 556 300 BLK pistol is the way to do it. Getting rid of the buffer tube on an AR pistol is sorely needed.
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Posted: 12/11/2013 11:40:31 AM EDT
[#40]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Sig 556 300 BLK pistol is the way to do it. Getting rid of the buffer tube on an AR pistol is sorely needed. The buffer tube is what makes an AR pistol worth having. 
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Posted: 12/11/2013 12:06:37 PM EDT
[#41]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Dunno, but that'd be an interesting comparison to run. I don't have one of the braces, nor do I know anyone with one, so I can't run it. A good test, though. Problem is, you're almost all the way to the stamp cost at that point. Granted, the wait is killer. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I'm listening. Does the sig brace compare to a legit stock'd SBR? Dunno, but that'd be an interesting comparison to run. I don't have one of the braces, nor do I know anyone with one, so I can't run it. A good test, though. Problem is, you're almost all the way to the stamp cost at that point. Granted, the wait is killer. http://www.sigsauer.com/CatalogProductDetails/p556-swat-pistol-with-sb15-pistol-stabilizing-brace.aspx
Now, I just need a mount for my can. |
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Posted: 12/11/2013 12:08:49 PM EDT
[#42]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
You asked for advice. Here's some good advice. If you believe what you wrote, use your money to get some professional training. You need that a lot more than an AR pistol. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
My house is a lot of doorways and hallways. It would be tough to clear and navigate with my full size AR. You asked for advice. Here's some good advice. If you believe what you wrote, use your money to get some professional training. You need that a lot more than an AR pistol. +1 |
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Posted: 12/11/2013 12:15:53 PM EDT
[#43]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Have you read about the legal problems people have dealt with after using NFA weapons in defense of their home, life, & property? It's pretty ugly, and you'll be lucky to not go bankrupt defending yourself, especially if it goes before a grand jury! Can you expound on this with specifics? I would say don't toss stuff out like that without citations, otherwise it's just a scare tactic. I would think if they're going to prosecute, they're going to do so whether you shot/killed someone with a pistol, rifle, or SBR so you're just as likely to go bankrupt defending themselves. |
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Posted: 12/11/2013 12:32:39 PM EDT
[#44]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Can you expound on this with specifics? I would say don't toss stuff out like that without citations, otherwise it's just a scare tactic. I would think if they're going to prosecute, they're going to do so whether you shot/killed someone with a pistol, rifle, or SBR so you're just as likely to go bankrupt defending themselves. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Have you read about the legal problems people have dealt with after using NFA weapons in defense of their home, life, & property? It's pretty ugly, and you'll be lucky to not go bankrupt defending yourself, especially if it goes before a grand jury! Can you expound on this with specifics? I would say don't toss stuff out like that without citations, otherwise it's just a scare tactic. I would think if they're going to prosecute, they're going to do so whether you shot/killed someone with a pistol, rifle, or SBR so you're just as likely to go bankrupt defending themselves. We'll, the typical self defense shooting will run you about $20,000 to defend yourself in court. NFA will likely cost you more... http://www.davehayes.org/2006/02/10/the-gary-fadden-incident http://www.afn.org/~guns/ayoob.html Not necessarily SBR, but still NFA, and much higher legal defense costs. |
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Posted: 12/11/2013 12:37:57 PM EDT
[#45]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
AUGs are expensive and the Tavor is a piece of shit. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
Why not a bullpup? AUG or Tavor, all the goodness of a full size bbl, small overall length. AUGs are expensive and the Tavor is a piece of shit.  Post of the day!!!!!!!
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Posted: 12/11/2013 12:42:10 PM EDT
[#46]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Go run an AR pistol against an SBR with a shot timer. Report back. Quote HistoryQuoted:
Quoted:
I don't get the pistol hate Go run an AR pistol against an SBR with a shot timer. Report back. There's a lot of difference in an SBR and an AR Pistol. About a one year wait for starters. |
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Posted: 12/11/2013 12:46:27 PM EDT
[#47]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
At close range, pulling the trigger 8 times gets you 72 holes in the bad guy whatever happens to be downrange instead of just 8. Home defense against birds is always better served with a shotgun. FIFY |
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Posted: 12/11/2013 12:50:13 PM EDT
[#48]
I don't like the idea of a pistol AR for HD.
Accuracy matters most in your home. I can work all kinds of tight spaces with a carbine. Sounds like maybe you should seek CQB training? |
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Posted: 12/11/2013 12:57:51 PM EDT
[#49]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
Whats wrong with the AR PISTOL HATERS? What could possibly be wrong and all but AR goodness from RIFLE CALIBER, concealable (although not as easy as a pistol and def not in the summer time), car carry-able (in states that forbid loaded rifles in a car) CCW legal AR15 PISTOL...a pistol that can give you head shots to 200 and body shots to 400+ from a concealable package? WHY PAY FOR AN SBR stamp and have to jump thru all those hoops? The AR pistol can be fired floated on the move like a carbine, snugged u tight with the buffer tube in tight to the shoulder (minimal recoil) for rifle like accuracy...what in the world could you find wrong with a system like this? 30 rounds of RIFLE AMMO in a small package...If you are shitting on the idea...YOU HAVE NOT HELD NOR FIRED ONE...PERIOD...To hell with SBR's...I've got a few 14.7 AR's with pinned suppressor mounts to be legal...and a 9" AR Pistol with a RRA pistol buffer tube...building a 300BLK in 10" soon...buy a SSS Brake Shield or a KX3 and turn that extremely loud muzzle blast to your favor...basically every time you pull the trigger your projecting a flash bang like sound wave at your target...completely resetting their OODA loop every time you pull the trigger... more AR Pistol awesomeness...you don't train without ear pro do you? Properly set up and run the AR Pistol is a formidable weapon... http://i33.photobucket.com/albums/d90/rusticarts/arpistol2.jpg Add to this the fact that I can legal carry this in my state in the car, fully loaded (CCW), since it's a pistol; where as rifles must be unloaded when in a vehicle. Thus making this one hell of a truck gun too. |
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Posted: 12/11/2013 12:59:59 PM EDT
[#50]
Quote HistoryQuoted:
I don't like the idea of a pistol AR for HD. Accuracy matters most in your home. I can work all kinds of tight spaces with a carbine. Sounds like maybe you should seek CQB training? This X 87. GIs cleared the shit out of houses with Garands. |
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