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Posted: 9/29/2011 10:57:39 AM EDT
[#1]
Quoted:
What an odd thing for a manufacturer to say.... 
It's hard to imagine defending a dynamic carjacking, for instance, without SOME possibility of having to shoot through glass. Exactly this. Do Hornady's ad writers roll down their windows first?
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Posted: 9/29/2011 10:59:01 AM EDT
[#2]
This seems to be an awful lot of chatter over a flippant statement made over five years ago.
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Posted: 9/29/2011 11:01:05 AM EDT
[#3]
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I can't really think of a realistic situation in which you would have to shoot through a barrier in self defense, unless maybe some kind of hostage situation. Can someone help me out? Edit- I guess if someone was trying to run over you... Sure. You're sitting in a car, stopped in traffic, and someone walks up and points a gun at you. Are you going to roll down your window to shoot? Their 'marketing manager' needs to stick to technical facts, and not offer legal commentary. [email protected] Not in Ohio. Shooting from inside a vehicle is a no-no. Better floor it Harold. There was a shooting quite recently that happened with a Ohioan shooting from his car, and he was not charged. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 11:02:38 AM EDT
[#4]
Quoted:
I've heard of PLENTY of self defense situations where bad guys are firing from cover, get nailed and no the good guy doesn't go to jail. Can you post some links? I would like to read about it. I doubt anyone would volunteer to stand behind any typical house wall, door, or window and be shot at. The same holds true for car windshields and windows. I have seen the brim of a hat deflect a bullet. Stuff like that happens. You may need multiple shots to stop an attack. A good bullet doesn't negate the need for accurate shot placement. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 11:03:17 AM EDT
[#5]
I'm sure a lot of you have seen the ammo tests on youtube that go by "AT1" and "AT2". Rather unscientific, but interesting. AT1 demonstrates expasion into a barrel of water. AT2 is through four layers of denim first. They've done about every round in every caliber. Here is a search result for AT2 Hornady.
AT2 Hornady |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 11:04:09 AM EDT
[#6]
***Disclaimer*** I've never shot Hornady's Critical Defense Handgun Ammunition.
But I have tested a variety of ammunition on a variety of mediums. Every ammo labeled as "defensive" begins coming apart after going through a medium. The good news is most of these rounds would go through one wall and into a second but no further. This seems to suggest to me that these are designed to no over penetrate in a residential scenario. Similar effects were observed when shooting through car glass, both door glass and windshield. Even with coming apart after striking the glass the round would maintain its trajectory and hit very near the point of aim. The bullet would fragment and come apart but the largest part (I'd estimate 50-70% of the round) would hit near the point of aim. The main point is most defensive ammos do not react well with a barrier but would still be effective within a few feet of the barrier. Unfortunately, I don't have any of my tests or pictures on this computer, and I'm 3000 miles away from the computer that has them. Otherwise I'd post some. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 11:06:11 AM EDT
[#7]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I can't really think of a realistic situation in which you would have to shoot through a barrier in self defense, unless maybe some kind of hostage situation. Can someone help me out? Edit- I guess if someone was trying to run over you... What?
It was a question, and it has been answered (with an answer). |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 11:06:51 AM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
Quoted:
What an odd thing for a manufacturer to say....
It's hard to imagine defending a dynamic carjacking, for instance, without SOME possibility of having to shoot through glass. Yep. Given the choice, I'd rather have a round that will penetrate barriers, than one that would expand well. Agreed 100% In Order... 1) Make a clean hit 2) Make a well placed hit 3) Penetrate Deeply enough 4) Expansion 5) Worry about stupid shit like "overpenetration" |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 11:07:11 AM EDT
[#9]
I don't much care... Why bother with Hornady when you can get infinitely better ammunition buying Federal HST rounds???
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Posted: 9/29/2011 11:09:02 AM EDT
[#10]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I've heard of PLENTY of self defense situations where bad guys are firing from cover, get nailed and no the good guy doesn't go to jail. Can you post some links? I would like to read about it. I doubt anyone would volunteer to stand behind any typical house wall, door, or window and be shot at. The same holds true for car windshields and windows. I have seen the brim of a hat deflect a bullet. Stuff like that happens. You may need multiple shots to stop an attack. A good bullet doesn't negate the need for accurate shot placement. I'll have to do some googling , but there was a really interesting case about 1 year ago in TX where a LEO engaged a car with several gang bangers with his sidearm through the windshield. Fired 6-8 rounds to nearly no effect, car drove off into a guy with CCW. He fired another 6 shots into the car through the windshield killing the driver and passenger. Cop was using poor performing 40sw , the CCW guy had a .45 with something better off. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 11:25:30 AM EDT
[#11]
Quoted: I don't much care... Why bother with Hornady when you can get infinitely better ammunition buying Federal HST rounds??? Ummm, because HST is trumped by the much more serious sounding Critical Defense, which in turn is bested by the terrifying Hydrashok. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 11:28:21 AM EDT
[#12]
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Quoted:
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I've heard of PLENTY of self defense situations where bad guys are firing from cover, get nailed and no the good guy doesn't go to jail. Can you post some links? I would like to read about it. I doubt anyone would volunteer to stand behind any typical house wall, door, or window and be shot at. The same holds true for car windshields and windows. I have seen the brim of a hat deflect a bullet. Stuff like that happens. You may need multiple shots to stop an attack. A good bullet doesn't negate the need for accurate shot placement. I'll have to do some googling , but there was a really interesting case about 1 year ago in TX where a LEO engaged a car with several gang bangers with his sidearm through the windshield. Fired 6-8 rounds to nearly no effect, car drove off into a guy with CCW. He fired another 6 shots into the car through the windshield killing the driver and passenger. Cop was using poor performing 40sw , the CCW guy had a .45 with something better off. When the NC SBI and HP tested ammo on Camaro windshields, .45 didn't go through. Almost nothing did except, .357 Sig. That's what our HP carries now. They use Gold Dots. I am always finding them all over the range where they qualify. They will eject a round and leave it. I have probably picked up two mags worth over the course of shooting there. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 11:39:17 AM EDT
[#13]
Hornady critical defense is marketed towards the largest portion of the firearms community, the uninformed. To anyone not knowing better their hype, like most hype, looks good.
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Posted: 9/29/2011 12:46:08 PM EDT
[#14]
Quoted: When the NC SBI and HP tested ammo on Camaro windshields, .45 didn't go through. Almost nothing did except, .357 Sig. That's what our HP carries now. They use Gold Dots. I am always finding them all over the range where they qualify. They will eject a round and leave it. I have probably picked up two mags worth over the course of shooting there. What loads did they test? What was their protocol? |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 12:49:09 PM EDT
[#15]
Quoted:
Is any round designed to shoot through barriers? AP rounds 
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Posted: 9/29/2011 12:51:00 PM EDT
[#16]
Quoted: Quoted: I don't much care... Why bother with Hornady when you can get infinitely better ammunition buying Federal HST rounds??? Ummm, because HST is trumped by the much more serious sounding Critical Defense, which in turn is bested by the terrifying Hydrashok.  The HST is Federal's Next-Generation JHP bullet... HST ====> HydraShokTwo (H.S.T.) |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 12:52:23 PM EDT
[#17]
I have always really liked Hornady products and seek them out first in most cases but I have never been the least bit interested in Critical Defense. I just dont see the attraction.
To me it is simply a design born out of their Levelution rifle ammo that they relized could be spun off to CCWr's |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 1:01:02 PM EDT
[#18]
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When the NC SBI and HP tested ammo on Camaro windshields, .45 didn't go through. Almost nothing did except, .357 Sig. That's what our HP carries now. They use Gold Dots. I am always finding them all over the range where they qualify. They will eject a round and leave it. I have probably picked up two mags worth over the course of shooting there. What loads did they test? What was their protocol? Excellent questions. It's been about 9 years or so. They tested a fairly wide range of ammo at that time. The protocol was firing at windshields and various distances and angles. The only reason I know is that my roommate was interning for SBI at the time in their forensics lab. That was the thing that drove the SHP toward the .357 sig. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 1:04:34 PM EDT
[#19]
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Is any round designed to shoot through barriers? The .88 magnum. It shoots through schools. 
TXL |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 1:07:11 PM EDT
[#20]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I don't much care... Why bother with Hornady when you can get infinitely better ammunition buying Federal HST rounds??? Ummm, because HST is trumped by the much more serious sounding Critical Defense, which in turn is bested by the terrifying Hydrashok. The HST is Federal's Next-Generation JHP bullet... HST ====> HydraShokTwo (H.S.T.)Myth! |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 1:21:01 PM EDT
[#21]
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Quoted:
I can't really think of a realistic situation in which you would have to shoot through a barrier in self defense, unless maybe some kind of hostage situation. Can someone help me out? Edit- I guess if someone was trying to run over you... Famous footage of a home invasion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZKVQVXLVSM More footage here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuhKCiY-lu0&feature=related Damn, I never realized that one of the attackers had an AR. 
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Posted: 9/29/2011 1:29:24 PM EDT
[#22]
I think that Hornady specifically designed this round for the most likely self defense situation which (in their estimation) is from a small handgun and not through intermediate barriers. They did not strictly adhere to the FBI testing protocol which, to the best of my knowledge, most of the other popular and well respected ammunition manufactures do. This protocol is based on the most likely situation to confront LE and most of that ammunition is optimal from full sized duty weapons. Similar situation to the Speer short barrel .38 spl load. IMO not necessarily a bad idea.
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Posted: 9/29/2011 1:37:48 PM EDT
[#23]
So did anyone test any yet?
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Posted: 9/29/2011 1:42:09 PM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
Is any round designed to shoot through barriers? Yep.....AP
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Posted: 9/29/2011 2:03:16 PM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
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I've heard of PLENTY of self defense situations where bad guys are firing from cover, get nailed and no the good guy doesn't go to jail. Can you post some links? I would like to read about it. I doubt anyone would volunteer to stand behind any typical house wall, door, or window and be shot at. The same holds true for car windshields and windows. I have seen the brim of a hat deflect a bullet. Stuff like that happens. You may need multiple shots to stop an attack. A good bullet doesn't negate the need for accurate shot placement. Would a teenage running from a break-in getting shot in the back count......this while one of his accomplices is laying on the floor bleeding to death? There is an archive thread started by me that is something like "14 year old shot dead by local homeowner". |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 2:12:09 PM EDT
[#26]
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Quoted:
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I can't really think of a realistic situation in which you would have to shoot through a barrier in self defense, unless maybe some kind of hostage situation. Can someone help me out? Edit- I guess if someone was trying to run over you... Famous footage of a home invasion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZKVQVXLVSM More footage here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuhKCiY-lu0&feature=related Damn, I never realized that one of the attackers had an AR. http://i238.photobucket.com/albums/ff245/kendall1911/homeinvasion.jpg I don't know why. He wasn't very well prepared to use it. I think they were French. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 2:25:30 PM EDT
[#27]
You have to remember, they're not in Texas, they're in Nebraska. It probably is illegal to shoot through glass at people there. Not every place is like here where you can shoot the guys burglarizing your neighbors house or the guy stealing your car.
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Posted: 9/29/2011 3:44:04 PM EDT
[#28]
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I can't really think of a realistic situation in which you would have to shoot through a barrier in self defense, unless maybe some kind of hostage situation. Can someone help me out? Edit- I guess if someone was trying to run over you... That's one. If I'm sitting in my car, parked, and some bad guy runs up and points a gun at me, I will shoot him through the window, if necessary. If a bad guy is in my house and is shooting at me from behind a corner, I will shoot through the walls to hit him. There are thousands of examples where doing such a thing is completely justifiable. This is why Hornady's statement (especially the part in red in the original post) makes no sense to me at all, O_P; I myself would feel totally justified shooting given your examples, too. Weird. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 3:48:45 PM EDT
[#29]
Quoted: Is any round designed to shoot through barriers? http://www.ammunitiontogo.com/product_info.php/products_id/1867 Their asinine staements about "going to jail" aside, Hornady does manufacture Barrier Friendly ammunition in a variety of calibers. I've got a bit stashed away in misc. calibers. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 3:54:46 PM EDT
[#30]
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I don't much care... Why bother with Hornady when you can get infinitely better ammunition buying Federal HST rounds??? Ummm, because HST is trumped by the much more serious sounding Critical Defense, which in turn is bested by the terrifying Hydrashok. ExtremeShock sounds the seriousest. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 4:14:50 PM EDT
[#31]
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I don't much care... Why bother with Hornady when you can get infinitely better ammunition buying Federal HST rounds??? Ummm, because HST is trumped by the much more serious sounding Critical Defense, which in turn is bested by the terrifying Hydrashok. ExtremeShock sounds the seriousest. Unfortunately, this is the truth. The vast majority of the CCW market (this includes all aspects, buyers and sellers) is completely uninformed as to what things matter in a good defensive bullet. Science and data come in a distant last place next to cool, recognizable names, aggressive advertising, and slick packaging. To most sportsmen out there (who are a large chunk of the CCW market) Hornady is a "premium" ammo brand. Remington, Federal, Winchester are the cheap brands; they've never heard of "Speer." 
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Posted: 9/29/2011 4:21:11 PM EDT
[#32]
Quoted:
You have to remember, they're not in Texas, they're in Nebraska. It probably is illegal to shoot through glass at people there. Not every place is like here where you can shoot the guys burglarizing your neighbors house or the guy stealing your car. Yes, but you people in Texas are crazy. You shoot people for making fun of your chili
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Posted: 9/29/2011 4:30:46 PM EDT
[#33]
NRA addressed this in an article some time ago. PDX1 and CD were compared and CD penetrated far less. PDX1 is designed for barrier penetration and CD is made for shooting people wearing clothes in the open.
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Posted: 9/29/2011 4:31:23 PM EDT
[#34]
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I don't much care... Why bother with Hornady when you can get infinitely better ammunition buying Federal HST rounds??? Ummm, because HST is trumped by the much more serious sounding Critical Defense, which in turn is bested by the terrifying Hydrashok. The HST is Federal's Next-Generation JHP bullet... HST ====> HydraShokTwo (H.S.T.)
Myth! Yup. Myth. What some folks may not know (I wouldn't, if I hadn't talked to the guy) is that Federal made a JHP in between Hydra-Shok and HST, called the Hi-Shok. As one might expect, it's improved over the Hydra-Shok (and no post in the cavity), but not as good as the HST. Only reason I know about it is an armorer at a PD near me told me they had a contract for Hi-Shok back when the Obama-fueled ammo crunch was in full swing, and they couldn't get the HS, but their supplier offered some HST (at something like 80% quantity, to make up for the price difference, IIRC) instead. The armorer was ecstatic to get the better stuff, and promptly went to try and talk his Chief into switching their contract over to the HST load. FWIW, IIRC they issue 165gr .40 S&W JHP to officers. |
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