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Posted: 9/29/2011 7:06:35 AM EDT
[#1]
My understanding of these things is that Hornady essentially designed that round and projectile to barely meet the FBI specs, and ONLY the FBI specs, with the minimal amount of energy and flash required to do the job; kinda like how some hi-speed match shooters will download their .45ACP to where it just barely cycles a slide.
There was a magazine article in one of the NRA publications a couple years back that compared the FTX projectile to Winchester's PDX1 projectile, and the govorning philosophy behind the two designs. IIRC, the PDX1 was designed to power through damn near anything, and barely stop at the screaming edge of what the FBI would consider "overpenetration", etc; about the same as handloaders will make ammo that is just this side of the screaming edge of what a cartridge is designed to do, without breaking that vital barrier. Essentially, what I've taken away is that the FTX projectile/loads were designed to meet the minimum FBI specs with no real additional blast/recoil/wasted energy, etc, while the PDX1 was designed to be just this side of exceeding the FBI spec (in a bad way). Could be wrong. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 7:09:44 AM EDT
[#2]
Quoted: Is any round designed to shoot through barriers? Of course, that's why I have these (focus on the ammo).  |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 7:11:56 AM EDT
[#3]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I can't really think of a realistic situation in which you would have to shoot through a barrier in self defense, unless maybe some kind of hostage situation. Can someone help me out? Edit- I guess if someone was trying to run over you... Sure. You're sitting in a car, stopped in traffic, and someone walks up and points a gun at you. Are you going to roll down your window to shoot? Their 'marketing manager' needs to stick to technical facts, and not offer legal commentary. [email protected] TO my knowledge, Steve Johnson is no longer employed at Hornady. I was told he left the company to work in another industry in a role different from the one he held at Hornady. He's a nice guy and a very good shooter. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 7:12:02 AM EDT
[#4]
Quoted: Quoted: I still would like to see it tested. I just gave some to a friend of mine in return for letting me take his .45 Long Colt revolver to the range. [email protected] [email protected] I don't understand how your email address helps show me the results I am looking for. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 7:12:23 AM EDT
[#5]
Please wrap a turkey in a denim jacket and shoot it through two pieces of 1/2" drywall about 3.5" apart.
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Posted: 9/29/2011 7:16:02 AM EDT
[#6]
I fail to see how anyone could expect a non-bonded bullet to perform well going through a windshield, car door, or a wall and retain its shape. Isn't that specifically why they (not Hornady) designed bonded bullets because even the standard Golden Saber rounds won't do those very things?
The jail comment may have been a bit much but I totally understand the rest. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 7:16:54 AM EDT
[#7]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I still would like to see it tested. I just gave some to a friend of mine in return for letting me take his .45 Long Colt revolver to the range. [email protected] [email protected] I don't understand how your email address helps show me the results I am looking for. Those are not my e-mail address. E-mail him and corordinate payment for his testing, by protocol, of this ammo. Go to his website and look at his data. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 7:17:30 AM EDT
[#8]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I can't really think of a realistic situation in which you would have to shoot through a barrier in self defense, unless maybe some kind of hostage situation. Can someone help me out? Edit- I guess if someone was trying to run over you... Famous footage of a home invasion: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IZKVQVXLVSM More footage here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DuhKCiY-lu0&feature=related Good shoot, except maybe when he was shooting the windshield of the guy trying to leave. That might be hard to resist doing, but also hard to defend later. Screw em. They went with guns and came out shooting as they were running out. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 7:17:34 AM EDT
[#9]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I still would like to see it tested. I just gave some to a friend of mine in return for letting me take his .45 Long Colt revolver to the range. [email protected] [email protected] I don't understand how your email address helps show me the results I am looking for. Those are not my e-mail address. E-mail him and corordinate payment for his testing, by protocol, of this ammo. Go to his website and look at his data. Gotcha. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 7:17:42 AM EDT
[#10]
Critical Defense is shit ammo.
Glaser Safety Slugs, Corbon Powerball, and Hornady Critical Defense are not suitable for carry. They fail to meet IWBA specs. I've been saying this for a long time. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 7:22:11 AM EDT
[#11]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Good shoot, except maybe when he was shooting the windshield of the guy trying to leave. That might be hard to resist doing, but also hard to defend later. What was going to stop that guy from getting a rifle out of that car and shooting at the homeowner. Shoot till the threat has ended. As far as I'm concerned that guy was still a huge threat. He had a car and maybe a RPG for all I know. Oh, I agree. It's just that in my state, you would have lost the protection of castle doctrine. Your fate would be up to whether or not someone else, (who wasn't just shot at), thinks a "reasonable person" should feel threatened with the bad guys running away. You might have a problem. Like I said though, it would be hard not to keep shooting. Even if there was no threat, the adrenalin would be dumping, and you would sure want the bastards dead. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 7:22:31 AM EDT
[#12]
Quoted: I don't frequent places where people shoot at me. And where would that be? |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 7:23:31 AM EDT
[#13]
Quoted:
If you have to shoot through something like that in a personal defense situation you're probably going to jail.
I m not sure if that line is just incredibly short-sighted or an excuse for the performance of the product. Between this and Hornady's refusal to sell certain bullet & ammo designs to the serfs, I don't have much affection for them these days. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 7:27:31 AM EDT
[#14]
Quoted:
Critical Defense is shit ammo. Glaser Safety Slugs, Corbon Powerball, and Hornady Critical Defense are not suitable for carry. They fail to meet IWBA specs. I've been saying this for a long time. Posted Via AR15.Com Mobile Well, just one exception to that––-if I recal correctly, and please do advise if I got this wrong, but I believe that CD non +P .38 special is an acceptable round. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 7:27:57 AM EDT
[#15]
I'm afraid Hornady may have jumped the shark here. They now have a critical defense load in 22 Mag?!!?!? http://www.hornady.com/store/22-WMR-45gr-Critical-Defense |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 7:28:26 AM EDT
[#16]
The article O_P linked to was dated 2006. This link from Hornady's website indicates that Critical Defense was introduced in 2009. How did Firearms Tactical (O_P's link) get a quote from Hornady personnel on ammo that wasn't available for at least two more years? ETA - This link, dated Nov. 2008 also seems to corroborate the idea that Critical Defense didn't become available until 2009. (Press releases are often sent out in advance.) Redacted cuz I'm a derp. 
ETA2 - Quoted:
A Word of Caution about Hornady’s Critical Defense Handgun Ammunition
- by Shawn Dodson According to Steve Johnson, Hornady Marketing Communications Manager, the Critical Defense line of handgun ammunition: "...is not designed to shoot through glass, is not designed to shoot through a car door, and is not designed to shoot through a wall. If you have to shoot through something like that in a personal defense situation you're probably going to jail." He suggested that I test Critical Defense ammo against these barriers. But I told him that since the manufacturer had already admitted that the ammo would fail if fired through those barriers, any test by me would only be repetitious. in the quoted material, Hornady does not say CD would fail, they say it is "not designed". Without testing, which no one has done (that we're aware of), we don't know how it will perform. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 7:30:46 AM EDT
[#17]
I would assume this ammo would be for use in a home defense weapon, if you use a round that penetrates barriers it will also penetrate sheet rock.
Would you feel comfortable shooting at a intruder if you know that any misses will penetrate your child's bedroom walls or out the house and into your neighbors house. This was the concept behind the safety slug, YOU are responsible for any shots you fire. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 7:35:41 AM EDT
[#18]
Quoted: Wait a sec... The article O_P linked to was dated 2006. This link from Hornady's website indicates that Critical Defense was introduced in 2009. How did Firearms Tactical (O_P's link) get a quote from Hornady personnel on ammo that wasn't available for at least two more years? ETA - This link, dated Nov. 2008 also seems to corroborate the idea that Critical Defense didn't become available until 2009. (Press releases are often sent out in advance.) Posted 4 July 2010 |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 7:36:13 AM EDT
[#19]
I can just see it now. People wearing sheet rock or auto glass as a bullet proof vest.
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Posted: 9/29/2011 7:36:54 AM EDT
[#20]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Wait a sec... The article O_P linked to was dated 2006. This link from Hornady's website indicates that Critical Defense was introduced in 2009. How did Firearms Tactical (O_P's link) get a quote from Hornady personnel on ammo that wasn't available for at least two more years? ETA - This link, dated Nov. 2008 also seems to corroborate the idea that Critical Defense didn't become available until 2009. (Press releases are often sent out in advance.) Posted 4 July 2010 Derp. I only looked at the top of the page, didn't see the latter date. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 7:37:54 AM EDT
[#21]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I can't really think of a realistic situation in which you would have to shoot through a barrier in self defense, unless maybe some kind of hostage situation. Can someone help me out? Edit- I guess if someone was trying to run over you... Sure. You're sitting in a car, stopped in traffic, and someone walks up and points a gun at you. Are you going to roll down your window to shoot? Their 'marketing manager' needs to stick to technical facts, and not offer legal commentary. [email protected] Not in Ohio. Shooting from inside a vehicle is a no-no. Better floor it Harold. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 7:44:48 AM EDT
[#22]
Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: I can't really think of a realistic situation in which you would have to shoot through a barrier in self defense, unless maybe some kind of hostage situation. Can someone help me out? Edit- I guess if someone was trying to run over you... Sure. You're sitting in a car, stopped in traffic, and someone walks up and points a gun at you. Are you going to roll down your window to shoot? Their 'marketing manager' needs to stick to technical facts, and not offer legal commentary. [email protected] Not in Ohio. Shooting from inside a vehicle is a no-no. Better floor it Harold. Floor it? At a traffic stop? Good luck with that. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 7:46:55 AM EDT
[#23]
True story: I saw this thread title and thought, "I'm not even opening that unless it was written by Old_Painless." Then I looked over at the username...
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Posted: 9/29/2011 7:47:32 AM EDT
[#24]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I can't really think of a realistic situation in which you would have to shoot through a barrier in self defense, unless maybe some kind of hostage situation. Can someone help me out? Edit- I guess if someone was trying to run over you... Sure. You're sitting in a car, stopped in traffic, and someone walks up and points a gun at you. Are you going to roll down your window to shoot? Their 'marketing manager' needs to stick to technical facts, and not offer legal commentary. [email protected] Not in Ohio. Shooting from inside a vehicle is a no-no. Better floor it Harold. And shooting into a vehicle is a yes-yes? |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 7:48:35 AM EDT
[#25]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I can't really think of a realistic situation in which you would have to shoot through a barrier in self defense, unless maybe some kind of hostage situation. Can someone help me out? Edit- I guess if someone was trying to run over you... Sure. You're sitting in a car, stopped in traffic, and someone walks up and points a gun at you. Are you going to roll down your window to shoot? Their 'marketing manager' needs to stick to technical facts, and not offer legal commentary. [email protected] Not in Ohio. Shooting from inside a vehicle is a no-no. Better floor it Harold. Really? 2901.09 No duty to retreat in residence or vehicle.
(A) As used in this section, “residence” and “vehicle” have the same meanings as in section 2901.05 of the Revised Code. (B) For purposes of any section of the Revised Code that sets forth a criminal offense, a person who lawfully is in that person’s residence has no duty to retreat before using force in self-defense, defense of another, or defense of that person’s residence, and a person who lawfully is an occupant of that person’s vehicle or who lawfully is an occupant in a vehicle owned by an immediate family member of the person has no duty to retreat before using force in self-defense or defense of another. Effective Date: 2008 SB184 09-09-2008 Ohio law. And even if it were not so, the argument that shooting from a vehicle is a "no-no," full stop, is absurd. Even if there was a duty to retreat from a vehicle in OH, if someone were to be pinned in traffic and unable to escape the vehicle, that would be unlikely to convert a lawful defense of self (or others) into an unlawful use of force if retreat could not be attempted or completed. And, as posted, there is no such duty to retreat in a vehicle. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 7:49:22 AM EDT
[#26]
Accidental discharge.
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Posted: 9/29/2011 7:56:08 AM EDT
[#27]
Quoted:
And shooting into a vehicle is a yes-yes?
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Posted: 9/29/2011 8:04:01 AM EDT
[#28]
My guess......the marketing guy said something stupid that he made up on the fly. Now those words will haunt Hornady until they post a retraction. I seriously doubt that this round is any less capable of penetrating glass, car doors, and walls compared to other similar designs of ammo.
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Posted: 9/29/2011 8:05:14 AM EDT
[#29]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
A friend of the Box O' Truth sent me a note with this link attached. http://www.firearmstactical.com/tacticalbriefs/2006/04/main.htm A Word of Caution about Hornady’s Critical Defense Handgun Ammunition
- by Shawn Dodson According to Steve Johnson, Hornady Marketing Communications Manager, the Critical Defense line of handgun ammunition: "...is not designed to shoot through glass, is not designed to shoot through a car door, and is not designed to shoot through a wall. If you have to shoot through something like that in a personal defense situation you're probably going to jail." –– NRA's American Guardian TV I was surprised that it is dated in 2006, as I have never read this before. Even discounting the false statement included (in red), the rest of the statement is what the person wanted me to test. He suggested that I test Critical Defense ammo against these barriers. But I told him that since the manufacturer had already admitted that the ammo would fail if fired through those barriers, any test by me would only be repetitious. I was surprised that this ammo is not rated to penetrate these rather common barriers. I had a lot of hope for this bullet. Does anyone know if their position has changed on this issue at all? They're ammunition manufacturers, not attorneys.... For a major manufacturer of ammunition, I would expect that they have at least one lawyer on retainer, if not employed by them. I think you are missing the point. Hornady, the company, is not known for producing and marketing lawyers to the firearms community (or any other community that I know of).... 
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Posted: 9/29/2011 8:10:51 AM EDT
[#30]
1. Steve Johnson has not been with Hornady for quite a while now. 2. From what I remember of when Hornady first introduced this line at a writer's event, it was intended to be a low recoil round for pocket pistols. It was originally available in .380 and a couple other calibers common in small carry guns. The concept was to make it light recoiling so it was easy to control to increase hit probability while ensuring reliable expansion. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 8:10:55 AM EDT
[#31]
Hornady's Critical Defense Ammo = teh ballz suckage
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Posted: 9/29/2011 8:14:14 AM EDT
[#32]
Shooting stuff is fun.
PRETTY PLEASE do a test? Pretty, pretty please? 
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Posted: 9/29/2011 8:14:44 AM EDT
[#33]
I remember the magazine article. I'll see if I can find it.
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Posted: 9/29/2011 8:15:41 AM EDT
[#34]
Quoted:
I would assume this ammo would be for use in a home defense weapon, if you use a round that penetrates barriers it will also penetrate sheet rock. Would you feel comfortable shooting at a intruder if you know that any misses will penetrate your child's bedroom walls or out the house and into your neighbors house. This was the concept behind the safety slug, YOU are responsible for any shots you fire. Any round that will penetrate a bad guy and STOP him, will penetrate several walls. See here: Shooting Through Walls "Safety slugs" will not make the FBI minimum penetration standards. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 8:26:15 AM EDT
[#35]
Hornady XTP in 230tr .45 ACP will go clean through two car doors and come out in one peice. Now i have no ieea how it performs on people after exiting, but i have shot a few rounds of it at a junk car before.
I used to carry it on duty because it is supremely accurate in my 1911 out to 100 yards. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 8:34:14 AM EDT
[#36]
Quoted: Quoted: Test Test Test Test Test ! This. I have been carrying this ammo, but have been considering a change. I think I'll stop by the gun shop this afternoon and buy something else. Any suggestions (9mm)? Anything on this list is GTG: |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 8:39:01 AM EDT
[#37]
Well fuck me. I have this stuff in 9mm, and 45acp. I guess I need to get hold of my buddy who owns a junkyard, see if I can shoot up some old car doors, windshields, and windows. Unfortunately, I'm pretty sure the glass, if it isn't broken already, is more valuable as a part, rather than a target.
I don't want to try to bust in on O_P, but it could be fun to try for myself. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 8:47:45 AM EDT
[#38]
Quoted: I can't really think of a realistic situation in which you would have to shoot through a barrier in self defense, unless maybe some kind of hostage situation. Can someone help me out? Edit- I guess if someone was trying to run over you... A friend is an LAPD cop, he was working plainclothes following a burglary crew, waiting for uniforms to show up. One of the members of the robbery crew saw a white boy in a car in the hood and tried to carjack him. Friend wound up shooting through the windshield at the thug. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 8:57:05 AM EDT
[#39]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I can't really think of a realistic situation in which you would have to shoot through a barrier in self defense, unless maybe some kind of hostage situation. Can someone help me out? Edit- I guess if someone was trying to run over you... Sure. You're sitting in a car, stopped in traffic, and someone walks up and points a gun at you. Are you going to roll down your window to shoot? Their 'marketing manager' needs to stick to technical facts, and not offer legal commentary. [email protected] Not in Ohio. Shooting from inside a vehicle is a no-no. Better floor it Harold. Floor it? At a traffic stop? Good luck with that. That is not correct. You would be good to go in Ohio. Your car is protected under castle doctrine. ETA: Way too slow. Distracted mid-post. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 9:31:54 AM EDT
[#40]
Quoted:
Quoted:
I don't frequent places where people shoot at me. And where would that be? So far, it has been every where I have been for my entire life. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 9:36:14 AM EDT
[#41]
Quoted: I can't really think of a realistic situation in which you would have to shoot through a barrier in self defense, unless maybe some kind of hostage situation. Can someone help me out? Edit- I guess if someone was trying to run over you... My bedroom is secure. I have no children. If I'm asleep and I hear people in my house...they're welcome to whatever they want...I have insurance for that...but if I so much as see that door knob move...there will be 6 rounds of 00 Buckshot that will go right through it and hit whatever is standing behind it. It's that simple. CVN
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Posted: 9/29/2011 9:37:01 AM EDT
[#42]
Quoted: Yep, the crap is designed to be shitty. Why everyone is all gung-ho over it is a testiment to good advertising. "Ooooo, look at the pretty pictures!" When it first came out there were a number of posts across the 'net about how Hornady forgot to drill flash holes in some of the brass. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 9:42:57 AM EDT
[#43]
Sounds like a liability statement to me.
I would be interested in seeing test results, even though I carry Gold Dots. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 10:17:25 AM EDT
[#44]
O_P
if you will do a box of truth on this, I'll send you some of the 9mm Critical Defense ammo. Just IM me with your address and I will UPS you some. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 10:29:13 AM EDT
[#45]
Quoted:
O_P if you will do a box of truth on this, I'll send you some of the 9mm Critical Defense ammo. Just IM me with your address and I will UPS you some. I appreciate the kind offer. But at this time, I am hoping someone with a lab and ballistics gelatin will take on the task. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 10:36:06 AM EDT
[#46]
I have to say...one of the best 'tests', at least the one I enjoyed reading the most, was done by JW777...I give you the Buick O truth
CVN
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Posted: 9/29/2011 10:47:39 AM EDT
[#47]
Quoted:
I can't really think of a realistic situation in which you would have to shoot through a barrier in self defense, unless maybe some kind of hostage situation. Can someone help me out? Edit- I guess if someone was trying to run over you...  What?
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Posted: 9/29/2011 10:48:18 AM EDT
[#48]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I don't frequent places where people shoot at me. And where would that be? So far, it has been every where I have been for my entire life. Most all shooting victims have that in common with you until they become shooting victims. There was never a shooting in Luby's Cafeteria until there was. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 10:55:51 AM EDT
[#49]
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
I don't frequent places where people shoot at me. And where would that be? So far, it has been every where I have been for my entire life. Most all shooting victims have that in common with you until they become shooting victims. There was never a shooting in Luby's Cafeteria until there was. Perhaps you misunderstand me. Just because I have never been shot at doesn't mean that I am not ready at an instant to respond with absolute, deadly force. Unless I am caught with no chance to draw, there will be rounds headed from me into the target. |
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Posted: 9/29/2011 10:57:18 AM EDT
[#50]
I've heard of PLENTY of self defense situations where bad guys are firing from cover, get nailed and no the good guy doesn't go to jail.
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