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Quoted: Quoted: Jrzy, I love your enthusiasm. We've spoke and you seem like a real nice guy. I even faxed you my current letter in hopes you would sort of "chill out", that should speak louder than any words of the level of trust I gave you. You have however not dealt with FTB very much. "Day 4 awaiting FTB letter"? Dude, only 56+ days to go... They do not give letters back any sooner, there appears to be a new internal policy on that. The "letter" will be reviewed exhaustively in the meantime. There may have been a possibility you could have received it sooner if you had not gone so public. With world now watching the ATF/FTB can not afford to do so. IF...IF they did accelerate the process for you; now every inventor, small 07, and major manufacturer will cry out "why did he get his before i got mine...I was waiting for weeks" and it would then be a great liability for ATF/FTB to have done so. I would most likely be the first to point it out to ATF the disparity of treatment. This type of product is new and ATF has never dealt with it prior. I have been waiting since February for final and binding classification on a physical submission sample of the same type of product. What makes you think you will get some form of special treatment that no other 07/SOT receives? I strongly suspect you are not even aware that your expectation are so far out of the norm. You have a great product idea. You most likely will get the classification you seek. Just understand it most likely will take every bit of a couple of months to get a response. Telling folks your making them available in September when you have no response is like waiving a red cape in front of a bull, the response....well, you get the picture. Take it from from someone who has had the bull charge him snorting. We are releasing the entire AOW and non AOW 18" & 20" line of the Orion 7's as planned in sept. This statement is worthless without pics!  |
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Quoted: As soon as we get back from Oleg Volk shooting our catalog.Quoted: Quoted: Jrzy, I love your enthusiasm. We've spoke and you seem like a real nice guy. I even faxed you my current letter in hopes you would sort of "chill out", that should speak louder than any words of the level of trust I gave you. You have however not dealt with FTB very much. "Day 4 awaiting FTB letter"? Dude, only 56+ days to go... They do not give letters back any sooner, there appears to be a new internal policy on that. The "letter" will be reviewed exhaustively in the meantime. There may have been a possibility you could have received it sooner if you had not gone so public. With world now watching the ATF/FTB can not afford to do so. IF...IF they did accelerate the process for you; now every inventor, small 07, and major manufacturer will cry out "why did he get his before i got mine...I was waiting for weeks" and it would then be a great liability for ATF/FTB to have done so. I would most likely be the first to point it out to ATF the disparity of treatment. This type of product is new and ATF has never dealt with it prior. I have been waiting since February for final and binding classification on a physical submission sample of the same type of product. What makes you think you will get some form of special treatment that no other 07/SOT receives? I strongly suspect you are not even aware that your expectation are so far out of the norm. You have a great product idea. You most likely will get the classification you seek. Just understand it most likely will take every bit of a couple of months to get a response. Telling folks your making them available in September when you have no response is like waiving a red cape in front of a bull, the response....well, you get the picture. Take it from from someone who has had the bull charge him snorting. We are releasing the entire AOW and non AOW 18" & 20" line of the Orion 7's as planned in sept. This statement is worthless without pics! |
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Well here I am to throw a wrench in the works. Does this future letter have any bearing on a Marbles Game Getter? How would it effect a pistol/shotgun................................ the game getter is the weapon much of the AOW category was formed around. they'll never be reclassified for that reason (IMHO). The Game Getter was specifically classified as an AOW because it was found useful for hunting. Congress lowered the transfer tax to 1 dollar for a Game Getter to pacify hunters and trappers who wanted it off the NFA |
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Quoted: Quoted: As soon as we get back from Oleg Volk shooting our catalog.Quoted: Quoted: Jrzy, I love your enthusiasm. We've spoke and you seem like a real nice guy. I even faxed you my current letter in hopes you would sort of "chill out", that should speak louder than any words of the level of trust I gave you. You have however not dealt with FTB very much. "Day 4 awaiting FTB letter"? Dude, only 56+ days to go... They do not give letters back any sooner, there appears to be a new internal policy on that. The "letter" will be reviewed exhaustively in the meantime. There may have been a possibility you could have received it sooner if you had not gone so public. With world now watching the ATF/FTB can not afford to do so. IF...IF they did accelerate the process for you; now every inventor, small 07, and major manufacturer will cry out "why did he get his before i got mine...I was waiting for weeks" and it would then be a great liability for ATF/FTB to have done so. I would most likely be the first to point it out to ATF the disparity of treatment. This type of product is new and ATF has never dealt with it prior. I have been waiting since February for final and binding classification on a physical submission sample of the same type of product. What makes you think you will get some form of special treatment that no other 07/SOT receives? I strongly suspect you are not even aware that your expectation are so far out of the norm. You have a great product idea. You most likely will get the classification you seek. Just understand it most likely will take every bit of a couple of months to get a response. Telling folks your making them available in September when you have no response is like waiving a red cape in front of a bull, the response....well, you get the picture. Take it from from someone who has had the bull charge him snorting. We are releasing the entire AOW and non AOW 18" & 20" line of the Orion 7's as planned in sept. This statement is worthless without pics! Neat.  |
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Those are all SBS's because of the stock |
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Maybe someone could answer a question for me while we're waiting. Why does the ATF even bother with all of this correspondence? Why is it that you can send in a letter and get a thoroughly researched answer in return? Why is it that they willingly accept firearms and devices, thoroughly test them, and then give you their determination of legality? I'm glad they do, it just seems like they do more than they have to. I just don't see why every letter doesn't come back "Thank you for your inquiry, unfortunately, we cannot assist with legal advice. Sincerely the BATFE." Firearms Technology The Firearms Technology Branch (FTB) provides expert technical support to ATF, other Federal agencies, State and local law enforcement, the firearms industry, Congress, and the general public. FTB is responsible for rendering opinions regarding the classification of suspected illegal firearms and newly designed firearms. FTB maintains an extensive firearms reference collection, as well as technical firearms reference files and library and firearms databases. This Branch is also responsible for the technical determination concerning types of firearms approved for importation into the United States. Further, FTB provides the U.S. Department of Justice, State prosecutors’ offices, district attorneys’ offices, and military courts with expert firearms testimony. This testimony includes the identification and origin of firearms and other matters relating to firearms and the firearms industry. Mission The mission of the Firearms Technology Branch is to serve as ATF’s technical authority relating to firearms and their classification under Federal laws, to respond to law enforcement agencies requests to test, evaluate, and provide expert testimony on firearms and ammunition, and to provide technical services to the firearms industry and other members of the public. FTB support to the firearms industry and general public includes the following areas: 1. Responses to technical inquiries. 2. Testing and classification of products submitted. 3. Curio & relic (C&R) determinations (see C&R page prior to submitting a C&R inquiry). 4. Import evaluations. Well there ya go, thanks.
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Well here I am to throw a wrench in the works. Does this future letter have any bearing on a Marbles Game Getter? How would it effect a pistol/shotgun................................ the game getter is the weapon much of the AOW category was formed around. they'll never be reclassified for that reason (IMHO). The Game Getter was specifically classified as an AOW because it was found useful for hunting. Congress lowered the transfer tax to 1 dollar for a Game Getter to pacify hunters and trappers who wanted it off the NFA i assume you know where this part of the AOW definition came from? Weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading
the tax ammount really doesn't matter for the above question. it (the AOW category) was specifically targeting the game getter. handy or not, "useful" or not, historical artifact or not, i highly doubt the game getters will ever be reclassified. (unfortunately... i'm sure there are a lot of game getters out there that are made worthless because of their legal status.) |
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Maybe but I believe it was classified as an AOW to keep it being a short barreled rifle or shotgun
The FD Roosevelt Adminstration protested removing the Game Getter from the NFA if it has barrels under 18 inches Congress bowed to FDR's DOJ and kept the GG NFA Hence lowering the tax from 200 dollar to 1 dollar instead of removing it from the NFA Guns with barrels 18 inches or more were ruled exempt from the NFA With a GG simple thing to do is remove the barrels from the receiver and store them some place else |
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Was the question "Why aren't these DDs?" ever addressed? Have "pistol gripped smoothbore firearms that fire a shotgun shell and have a barrel over one half inch in diameter" been found to have a particularly sporting purpose? More importantly what the hell is a sporting purpose? There's plenty of gun games you could use any number of firearms that are not considering "sporting" in. |
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Was the question "Why aren't these DDs?" ever addressed? Have "pistol gripped smoothbore firearms that fire a shotgun shell and have a barrel over one half inch in diameter" been found to have a particularly sporting purpose? More importantly what the hell is a sporting purpose? There's plenty of gun games you could use any number of firearms that are not considering "sporting" in. I don't want defending my life to be a sporting event. I want everything I can to put the odds overwhelmingly in my favor. |
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Was the question "Why aren't these DDs?" ever addressed? Have "pistol gripped smoothbore firearms that fire a shotgun shell and have a barrel over one half inch in diameter" been found to have a particularly sporting purpose? More importantly what the hell is a sporting purpose? There's plenty of gun games you could use any number of firearms that are not considering "sporting" in. I don't want defending my life to be a sporting event. I want everything I can to put the odds overwhelmingly in my favor. I don't want to be defending my life from a government that is bent on making an example of me after it wakes up and declares something that was lawful to own without a tax be unlawful because it has no sporting purpose and I did not pay a tax. How would the Heller and McDonald decisions play into this sort of hypothetical situation? I'm not trying to be antagonistic - I certainly don't have the NFA language and associated legalese memorized - but I would really appreciate jrzy or someone else to explain the DD angle. Thanks. J. |
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Was the question "Why aren't these DDs?" ever addressed? Have "pistol gripped smoothbore firearms that fire a shotgun shell and have a barrel over one half inch in diameter" been found to have a particularly sporting purpose? More importantly what the hell is a sporting purpose? There's plenty of gun games you could use any number of firearms that are not considering "sporting" in. I don't want defending my life to be a sporting event. I want everything I can to put the odds overwhelmingly in my favor. I don't want to be defending my life from a government that is bent on making an example of me after it wakes up and declares something that was lawful to own without a tax be unlawful because it has no sporting purpose and I did not pay a tax. How would the Heller and McDonald decisions play into this sort of hypothetical situation? I'm not trying to be antagonistic - I certainly don't have the NFA language and associated legalese memorized - but I would really appreciate jrzy or someone else to explain the DD angle. Thanks. J. Friend, go ahead and be antagonistic. It is what makes people forge ahead sometimes to get things accomplished. And I mean that in a good way. I was being antagonistic about the sporting purpose angle. Only a bureaucrat could come up with such garbage from the second amendment. 
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Would that not refer to the shell and not the gun? It could very well mean just the shell. The way I read it, it doesn't say "a firearm capable of firing a shotgun shell", It just says "a shotgun OR shotgun shell". Similar to how a 40mm round is a DD in and of itself, they wanted to make sure that shotgun shells were excluded from being a DD, but not necessarily every firearm capable of shooting one. But I really don't know, it refers to barrels earlier in the paragraph and a shotgun shell certainly does not have a barrel. Or does it? Would the casing be considered a barrel and that's why they mention shells specifically? I doubt it. I still have high hopes for the OP  They have already declared some shotguns DD's which is what I bet they will do with these. Hopefully they don't decide to include all pistol gripped only shotguns in their ruling, I know they wouldn't make all previously made pistol gripped shotguns illegal but they have no problem making any new made guns illegal. |
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Quoted: Quoted: Quoted: Would that not refer to the shell and not the gun? It could very well mean just the shell. The way I read it, it doesn't say "a firearm capable of firing a shotgun shell", It just says "a shotgun OR shotgun shell". Similar to how a 40mm round is a DD in and of itself, they wanted to make sure that shotgun shells were excluded from being a DD, but not necessarily every firearm capable of shooting one. But I really don't know, it refers to barrels earlier in the paragraph and a shotgun shell certainly does not have a barrel. Or does it? Would the casing be considered a barrel and that's why they mention shells specifically? I doubt it. I still have high hopes for the OP They have already declared some shotguns DD's which is what I bet they will do with these. Hopefully they don't decide to include all pistol gripped only shotguns in their ruling, I know they wouldn't make all previously made pistol gripped shotguns illegal but they have no problem making any new made guns illegal. Destructive device(2) Any weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell The term destructive device shall not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon |
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JRZY you might want to quote the entire DD definition... You seem to be leaving out the part about "that the AG fins is generally suitable for sporting purposes" US Code title 26, Chapter 53 section 5864 f) Destructive device The term "destructive device” means (2) any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes; and (3) any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in converting any device into a destructive device as defined in subparagraphs (1) and (2) and from which a destructive device may be readily assembled. The term "destructive device” shall not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section 4684 (2), 4685, or 4686 of title 10 of the United States Code; or any other device which the Secretary finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, or is an antique or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting purposes. US code Title 18, chapter 44, section 921 (4) The term "destructive device” means— (B) any type of weapon (other than a shotgun or a shotgun shell which the Attorney General finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes) by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, and which has any barrel with a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter; and (C) any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in converting any device into any destructive device described in subparagraph (A) or (B) and from which a destructive device may be readily assembled. The term "destructive device” shall not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section 4684 (2), 4685, or 4686 of title 10; or any other device which the Attorney General finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, is an antique, or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting, recreational or cultural purposes. |
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(2) Any weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell I was under the impression that the whole point of this "exercise" is that a smooth bore firearm with a pistol grip is NOT a shotgun....... |
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Quoted: I will post proof in a couple of days. Basically if a shotgun comes from the factory with a pistol grip or it's a virgin receiver never having had any stock other than a pistol grip it can have any barrel length and not be an AOW requiring form 1 or form 4. There is a a requirement that is must still have an overall length from the furthest point of the pistol grip to the end of the barrel of 26 inches. (26 1/4 to be safe) It must be smooth bore too. This is not my opinion, this is fact and I will prove this in a couple of days , give or take a week or two. Now if you have a 14 1/2 inch barrel and a standard pistol grip you will be under the mandated 26 inch rule. I also have the answer for this. A 14 1/2" barrel with sufficient permanently attached door-breach standoff or flash-hider, to bring it out to 18"... Plus a shotgun reciever that meets the 26" rule Would be a normal, non-NFA shotgun... Just like the Mossberg 'Cruiser'... It can then have a PG without being NFA. THIS is not an NFA weapon, for example:  Now, shorten the bbl and add muzzle-device of your choice to stay over 18"... Done... |
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Now, shorten the bbl and add muzzle-device of your choice to stay over 18"... Done... they are trying to push the 18in rule, if you can get an ATF FTB letter saying its okay... you can cut a few inches off and be legal at say 16in barrel if its 26in OAL. shorter, more compact, lighter, better spread. Then your perm muzzle device only needs to bring it to 26in oal, barrel could be say 14in for example. If you get the letter back, i'll probably cut one down myself, I already have registered SBS but not having to pay 200 is worth it. |
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JRZY you might want to quote the entire DD definition... You seem to be leaving out the part about "that the AG fins is generally suitable for sporting purposes" US Code title 26, Chapter 53 section 5864
f) Destructive device The term "destructive device” means (2) any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes; and (3) any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in converting any device into a destructive device as defined in subparagraphs (1) and (2) and from which a destructive device may be readily assembled. The term "destructive device” shall not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section 4684(2), 4685, or 4686 of title 10 of the United States Code; or any other device which the Secretary finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, or is an antique or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting purposes. US code Title 18, chapter 44, section 921 (4)The term "destructive device” means— (B)any type of weapon (other than a shotgun or a shotgun shell which the Attorney General finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes) by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, and which has any barrel with a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter; and (C)any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in converting any device into any destructive device described in subparagraph (A) or (B) and from which a destructive device may be readily assembled. The term "destructive device” shall not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section 4684(2), 4685, or 4686 of title 10; or any other device which the Attorney General finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, is an antique, or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting, recreational or cultural purposes. But... what JRZY is describing isnt a shotgun as its a smoothbore and has never had a stock. A "shotgun" must have a stock by definition, right? JRZY, I think you are onto something. I want mine in 10ga. Let me know how to pay you. |
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(2) Any weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell I was under the impression that the whole point of this "exercise" is that a smooth bore firearm with a pistol grip is NOT a shotgun....... The whole line reads: except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes The implication is that shotgun shells are sporting, and firing them is OK...even if weapon is not classified as a shotgun (must have should type stock to be classified as a shotgun). The pistol grip shotguns are not really shotguns...rather, they are fireams which fire shotgun shells. This seems like nothing more than a wording loophole to me. Exploit it to the fullest!!! |
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(2) Any weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell I was under the impression that the whole point of this "exercise" is that a smooth bore firearm with a pistol grip is NOT a shotgun....... he left out the remainder of the definition too, which is: which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes.
that changes the meaning of what was posted dramatically. |
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I'd like to elaborate on my earlier post. I'm just playing devil's advocate here, believe me, I'm on your side OP.
If I was the ATF I would argue that the device you are describing is a DD simply because it has a bore over 1/2" and it is not a "shotgun." The device is also not a "shotgun shell" so neither of these exclusions apply. It is also designed as a weapon eg. it is not a flare gun. But as has been explained earlier, this makes all pistol grip shotguns on the market today DD's so who knows. |
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I'd like to elaborate on my earlier post. I'm just playing devil's advocate here, believe me, I'm on your side OP. If I was the ATF I would argue that the device you are describing is a DD simply because it has a bore over 1/2" and it is not a "shotgun." The device is also not a "shotgun shell" so neither of these exclusions apply. It is also designed as a weapon eg. it is not a flare gun. But as has been explained earlier, this makes all pistol grip shotguns on the market today DD's, except I believe they will say those are exempted because they are deemed "sporting" but your new version may not be deemed "sporting." Likewise for me as well. Another even more common quandary exists in rifled slug barrels. Shotgun 18 U.S.C., § 921(A)(5) and 27 CFR § 478.11 The term “Shotgun” means a weapon designed or redesigned, made or remade, and intended to be fired from the shoulder, and designed or redesigned and made or remade to use the energy of the explosive in a fixed shotgun shell to fire through a smooth bore either a number of ball shot or a single projectile for each single pull of the trigger. |
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(2) Any weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell I was under the impression that the whole point of this "exercise" is that a smooth bore firearm with a pistol grip is NOT a shotgun....... he left out the remainder of the definition too, which is: which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes.
that changes the meaning of what was posted dramatically. If they declare sub-18" barrel pistol grip shotguns non-sporting, they'll have to declare all pistol grip shotguns non-sporting unless they come up with some other such bullshit through the magic of administrative law. |
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(2) Any weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell I was under the impression that the whole point of this "exercise" is that a smooth bore firearm with a pistol grip is NOT a shotgun....... The whole line reads: except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes The implication is that shotgun shells are sporting, and firing them is OK...even if weapon is not classified as a shotgun (must have should type stock to be classified as a shotgun). The pistol grip shotguns are not really shotguns...rather, they are fireams which fire shotgun shells. This seems like nothing more than a wording loophole to me. Exploit it to the fullest!!! I disagree with this interpretation. I think you're reading the line like: "except a shotgun or a firearm that fires a shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes I interpret it like this: "The Secretary finds shotguns, and shotgun shells, particularly suitable for sporting purposes." Basically two separate devices, partly to prevent the shells themselves from being considered DD's |
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... for brevity If they declare sub-18" barrel pistol grip shotguns non-sporting, they'll have to declare all pistol grip shotguns non-sporting unless they come up with some other such bullshit through the magic of administrative law.[/quote] As I understand the law to read, they could find them non sporting. Show me the error of my understanding. If they DID find all pg shotguns non sporting, consider the application of Heller and McDonald decisions under such a scenario. There was a recent thread about the DOD seeking upgrades or replacements for the M2 machinegun. If enthusiasts could purchase M2s without tax stamps and tremendously inflated prices thanks to FOPA, I believe there would be a few different solutions invented by some guy with a garage machineshop that the DOD could pick from. I despise firearms laws. 
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My dream is to build a hopper fed smooth bore 12 gauge Gatling gun. But everytime I post the idea here folks says that it's a no go because it will be classified as a DD. So if I can build one and be legal I'd be happy. It would be a massive hand cranked crew served weapon. It would need to be taken to the range on the back of a pickup truck but still from everything that Ive read about the law it would be a DD. I'm not trying to piss on anyone's thread. Just really looking at it. I understand the "loophole" that the OP is going after and I wish him success. |
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Quoted: My dream is to build a hopper fed smooth bore 12 gauge Gatling gun. But everytime I post the idea here folks says that it's a no go because it will be classified as a DD. So if I can build one and be legal I'd be happy. It would be a massive hand cranked crew served weapon. It would need to be taken to the range on the back of a pickup truck but still from everything that Ive read about the law it would be a DD. I'm not trying to piss on anyone's thread. Just really looking at it. I understand the "loophole" that the OP is going after and I wish him success. Build it to fire 410 45 ACP 45 LC for the WIN!  |
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My dream is to build a hopper fed smooth bore 12 gauge Gatling gun. But everytime I post the idea here folks says that it's a no go because it will be classified as a DD. So if I can build one and be legal I'd be happy. It would be a massive hand cranked crew served weapon. It would need to be taken to the range on the back of a pickup truck but still from everything that Ive read about the law it would be a DD. I'm not trying to piss on anyone's thread. Just really looking at it. I understand the "loophole" that the OP is going after and I wish him success. There is no 'loophole' Its a matter of the BATF screwing up and realizing that to declare such guns DDs would bring the wrath of the courts and Congress upon them Just wait till the Brady's sue the BATFE to declare such pistol gripped guns DDs. I am surprised they have not done so already given the 2007 shooting in Utah that fired em up over such guns. http://www.bradycampaign.org/xshare/pdf/lap/cases/tuft-v-rocky-mountain.pdf |
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I'd like to elaborate on my earlier post. I'm just playing devil's advocate here, believe me, I'm on your side OP. If I was the ATF I would argue that the device you are describing is a DD simply because it has a bore over 1/2" and it is not a "shotgun." The device is also not a "shotgun shell" so neither of these exclusions apply. It is also designed as a weapon eg. it is not a flare gun. But as has been explained earlier, this makes all pistol grip shotguns on the market today DD's so who knows. Ahah grasshopper... any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device If you made your shotgun into some sort of sawed off menacing looking flare gun then it would be perfectly legal. Of course you would not be able to possess any "anti-personnel" 12 guage ammo then. |
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(2) Any weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell I was under the impression that the whole point of this "exercise" is that a smooth bore firearm with a pistol grip is NOT a shotgun....... The whole line reads: except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes The implication is that shotgun shells are sporting, and firing them is OK...even if weapon is not classified as a shotgun (must have should type stock to be classified as a shotgun). The pistol grip shotguns are not really shotguns...rather, they are fireams which fire shotgun shells. This seems like nothing more than a wording loophole to me. Exploit it to the fullest!!! I disagree with this interpretation. I think you're reading the line like: "except a shotgun or a firearm that fires a shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes I interpret it like this: "The Secretary finds shotguns, and shotgun shells, particularly suitable for sporting purposes." Basically two separate devices, partly to prevent the shells themselves from being considered DD's So you are saying that a shotgun is not a DD, and shotgun shells themselves are not DDs...but something else which fires shotgun shells could be a DD if it's not classified by any other definition. |
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(2) Any weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell I was under the impression that the whole point of this "exercise" is that a smooth bore firearm with a pistol grip is NOT a shotgun....... The whole line reads: except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes The implication is that shotgun shells are sporting, and firing them is OK...even if weapon is not classified as a shotgun (must have should type stock to be classified as a shotgun). The pistol grip shotguns are not really shotguns...rather, they are fireams which fire shotgun shells. This seems like nothing more than a wording loophole to me. Exploit it to the fullest!!! I disagree with this interpretation. I think you're reading the line like: "except a shotgun or a firearm that fires a shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes I interpret it like this: "The Secretary finds shotguns, and shotgun shells, particularly suitable for sporting purposes." Basically two separate devices, partly to prevent the shells themselves from being considered DD's So you are saying that a shotgun is not a DD, and shotgun shells themselves are not DDs...but something else which fires shotgun shells could be a DD if it's not classified by any other definition. Yes, exactly. |
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(2) Any weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell I was under the impression that the whole point of this "exercise" is that a smooth bore firearm with a pistol grip is NOT a shotgun....... The whole line reads: except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes The implication is that shotgun shells are sporting, and firing them is OK...even if weapon is not classified as a shotgun (must have should type stock to be classified as a shotgun). The pistol grip shotguns are not really shotguns...rather, they are fireams which fire shotgun shells. This seems like nothing more than a wording loophole to me. Exploit it to the fullest!!! I disagree with this interpretation. I think you're reading the line like: "except a shotgun or a firearm that fires a shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes I interpret it like this: "The Secretary finds shotguns, and shotgun shells, particularly suitable for sporting purposes." Basically two separate devices, partly to prevent the shells themselves from being considered DD's So you are saying that a shotgun is not a DD, and shotgun shells themselves are not DDs...but something else which fires shotgun shells could be a DD if it's not classified by any other definition. Yes, exactly. Rob, I cant get onboard with your viewpoint as what the text of the code says is that ... a shotgun or shotgun shell that the AG..... but the device we're describing isnt a shotgun. |