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Quoted:
Well here I am to throw a wrench in the works. Does this future letter have any bearing on a Marbles Game Getter? How would it effect a pistol/shotgun................................ I don't believe a Game Getter is longer than 26", so it's irrelevant in that case. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Well here I am to throw a wrench in the works. Does this future letter have any bearing on a Marbles Game Getter? How would it effect a pistol/shotgun................................ I don't believe a Game Getter is longer than 26", so it's irrelevant in that case. Game Getters have a buttstock and Game Getters are specifically defined as AOWs unless they have a barrel of 18 inches or more smoothbore weapons with combination shotgun and rifle barrels 12 inches or more, less than 18 inches in length, from which only a single discharge can be made from either barrel without manual reloading, and shall include any such weapon which may be readily restored to fire .
Now here is a question for you: What about a 1908 Model Game Getter with 10 inch barrels on smoothbore, one rifled? AOW???? |
| So all this happened because the ATF got a bug up their ass about 18 year olds buying pistol gripped shotguns so they just reversed their own definition of a pistol grip shotgun which stood for decades to a firearm and now you think because they wrote a few letters we have them? The ATF is a government agency, when has the government ever painted themselves into a corner got caught and then not thrown a fit with even ruining lives trying to save face? Those people have huge ego's but no self esteem, they can't stand to not get their way and will do anything including breaking the law to preserve their fragile ego and you are putting yourself in their sights. I hope you are right and I'm wrong, we will all be better off for it if your right. I think you are doing the right thing and there are not a lot of people willing to put their livelihood and possibly their freedom on the line to help us slowly restore our god given rights so I commend you and wish you luck. |
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Quoted: Whoa wait a minute, I didn't know I was doing all that!So all this happened because the ATF got a bug up their ass about 18 year olds buying pistol gripped shotguns so they just reversed their own definition of a pistol grip shotgun which stood for decades to a firearm and now you think because they wrote a few letters we have them? The ATF is a government agency, when has the government ever painted themselves into a corner got caught and then not thrown a fit with even ruining lives trying to save face? Those people have huge ego's but no self esteem, they can't stand to not get their way and will do anything including breaking the law to preserve their fragile ego and you are putting yourself in their sights. I hope you are right and I'm wrong, we will all be better off for it if your right. I think you are doing the right thing and there are not a lot of people willing to put their livelihood and possibly their freedom on the line to help us slowly restore our god given rights so I commend you and wish you luck. I quit, never mind this whole thing. J/K  |
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Quoted:
So all this happened because the ATF got a bug up their ass about 18 year olds buying pistol gripped shotguns so they just reversed their own definition of a pistol grip shotgun which stood for decades to a firearm and now you think because they wrote a few letters we have them? The ATF is a government agency, when has the government ever painted themselves into a corner got caught and then not thrown a fit with even ruining lives trying to save face? Those people have huge ego's but no self esteem, they can't stand to not get their way and will do anything including breaking the law to preserve their fragile ego and you are putting yourself in their sights. I hope you are right and I'm wrong, we will all be better off for it if your right. I think you are doing the right thing and there are not a lot of people willing to put their livelihood and possibly their freedom on the line to help us slowly restore our god given rights so I commend you and wish you luck. Its not real hard folks. In 1960 the NRA got Congress to pass a bill defining the overall lengths of firearms to keep them from being subject to the NFA The ultimate overall length for rifles and shotguns was 26 inches and has been that ever since. The 26" overall length proposal I believe is the cut off determined by the US Treasury whether a gun is an AOW or not. I guess they are saying something like a Mossberg Persuader is not designed to be fired by one hand but anything under 26" is a smoothbore pistol: a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell,
Pistol. A weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s). A gun 26" or longer is not designed to be fired with one hand |
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Quoted: The 26 inch mark is the cut off length on concealabilityQuoted: So all this happened because the ATF got a bug up their ass about 18 year olds buying pistol gripped shotguns so they just reversed their own definition of a pistol grip shotgun which stood for decades to a firearm and now you think because they wrote a few letters we have them? The ATF is a government agency, when has the government ever painted themselves into a corner got caught and then not thrown a fit with even ruining lives trying to save face? Those people have huge ego's but no self esteem, they can't stand to not get their way and will do anything including breaking the law to preserve their fragile ego and you are putting yourself in their sights. I hope you are right and I'm wrong, we will all be better off for it if your right. I think you are doing the right thing and there are not a lot of people willing to put their livelihood and possibly their freedom on the line to help us slowly restore our god given rights so I commend you and wish you luck. Its not real hard folks. In 1960 the NRA got Congress to pass a bill defining the overall lengths of firearms to keep them from being subject to the NFA The ultimate overall length for rifles and shotguns was 26 inches and has been that ever since. The 26" overall length proposal I believe is the cut off determined by the US Treasury whether a gun is an AOW or not. I guess they are saying something like a Mossberg Persuader is not designed to be fired by one hand but anything under 26" is a smoothbore pistol: a pistol or revolver having a barrel with a smooth bore designed or redesigned to fire a fixed shotgun shell, Pistol. A weapon originally designed, made, and intended to fire a projectile (bullet) from one or more barrels when held in one hand, and having (a) a chamber(s) as an integral part(s) of, or permanently aligned with, the bore(s); and (b) a short stock designed to be gripped by one hand and at an angle to and extending below the line of the bore(s). A gun 26" or longer is not designed to be fired with one hand |
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Quoted:
So all this happened because the ATF got a bug up their ass about 18 year olds buying pistol gripped shotguns so they just reversed their own definition of a pistol grip shotgun which stood for decades to a firearm and now you think because they wrote a few letters we have them? The ATF is a government agency, when has the government ever painted themselves into a corner got caught and then not thrown a fit with even ruining lives trying to save face? Those people have huge ego's but no self esteem, they can't stand to not get their way and will do anything including breaking the law to preserve their fragile ego and you are putting yourself in their sights. I hope you are right and I'm wrong, we will all be better off for it if your right. I think you are doing the right thing and there are not a lot of people willing to put their livelihood and possibly their freedom on the line to help us slowly restore our god given rights so I commend you and wish you luck. ATF never "got a bug up their ass" and "reversed their own definition". The law has stood on the books for decades, and the definition has ALWAYS precluded 18 year olds from buying PG-only shotguns. It's just that no one ever fucking read the law, and ATF never explained it properly. Anyone who's read the definitions carefully will immediately realize that items such as tripod-mounted beltfeds, and pistol-grip-only shotguns simply cannot be defined as "rifle" or "shotgun" by the wording the law, since they're not intended to be fired from the shoulder. 99.99% of of FFLs and gun owners never pay attention to the law, never read it, and wouldn't understand it if they did. ATF didn't make anything up, they just began a campaign to educate people about laws that were passed before half of the people here were even born. And good for them for doing so! Now I wonder what this means for rifled firearms without stocks, with an OAL of 26" and a barrel length of <16"...? |
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Anyone familiar with the 'Serbu Shorty' will know this topic is old news. That said, it's a good review of basic legalities.
Two points: - Most references to 'pistol grip' in this context means 'pistol grip ONLY–– from the factory. NO shoulder stock EVAR'. - State laws also may specify 'overall length' and whatnot, and whether that means measured folded or unfolded, in the case of a folding-style breakopen shotty. This is a very large can of worms. What's a can of worms worth, compared to lawyer fees? |
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Quoted: Anyone familiar with the 'Serbu Shorty' will know this topic is old news. That said, it's a good review of basic legalities. Two points: - Most references to 'pistol grip' in this context means 'pistol grip ONLY–– from the factory. NO shoulder stock EVAR'. - State laws also may specify 'overall length' and whatnot, and whether that means measured folded or unfolded, in the case of a folding-style breakopen shotty. This is a very large can of worms. What's a can of worms worth, compared to lawyer fees? What does serbu have to do with this? Nothing, all serbu shorty's are either AOW Or SBS, Period He only offfers the shorties 16.5" overall length, 6.5" barrel What can of worms? Some of you guys think the ATF is out to get you and have secret plans to confiscate your weapons. Did any of you ever think that with out guns they would not have a job? That point was brought up to me by an ATF agent when we were discussing the tin foil on the net If the law is enforced as it was written in the 60's then the 26" overall length is what matters on a pistol grip shotgun. The 14 1/2 " barrel will not matter and it will remove it from the NFA status of AOW. The ATF has never arrested anyone when they reversed a decision that was made in error. After reading the letters from the Tech Branch on Akins I still believe the ATF is wrong and his invention is a semi auto under the the specs the ATF it self follows. Akins failed in his interpretation of those letters and never sent in a ruger 10/22 . He fucked himself. To walk around in fear of what a govt agency might do is insane. As a MFG I send in drawings, prototypes, and I ask questions in my requests to cover any & all possibilities. If I don't have a clear answer I repeat my requests in writing until they answer in a clear & concise manner as to leave nothing to chance or false assumptions. If I do make a 14 1/2 inch non AOW model available to the general public I will stand behind it. No one would ever lose one dime. By standing behind what we sell it would be a simple matter of the customer sending in the 14 1/2" barrel and us sending them back a 18" barrel. If they didn't want that we would AOW the weapon and pay the tax stamp on it. |
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After you get FTB confirmation on your current plan, you should see if you could get them to approve the concept with a stabilizer on the rear. I could think of applications for that- especially in something light, like .410.
http://www.rimfiremagic.co.uk/lb_revolvers.html |
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Quoted:
Now I wonder what this means for rifled firearms without stocks, with an OAL of 26" and a barrel length of <16"...?
Those are rifled bore pistols and specifically exempted from the NFA How so? There is no length designation for pistol or revolver barrels that I have ever seen. |
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Did any of you ever think that with out guns they would not have a job? That point was brought up to me by an ATF agent when we were discussing the tin foil on the net Um...NO! Without laws that infringe our rights they would not have jobs. Let's put the blame where it belongs. 
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Quoted: Separate issue.Quoted: Did any of you ever think that with out guns they would not have a job? That point was brought up to me by an ATF agent when we were discussing the tin foil on the net Um...NO! Without laws that infringe our rights they would not have jobs. Let's put the blame where it belongs. You're right but still we are dealing with what we have to deal with now. These guys don't want to disarm us any more than correction officers wish crime would just stop. It would be nice but the jobs would go up in smoke. |
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Quoted: Quoted: So all this happened because the ATF got a bug up their ass about 18 year olds buying pistol gripped shotguns so they just reversed their own definition of a pistol grip shotgun which stood for decades to a firearm and now you think because they wrote a few letters we have them? The ATF is a government agency, when has the government ever painted themselves into a corner got caught and then not thrown a fit with even ruining lives trying to save face? Those people have huge ego's but no self esteem, they can't stand to not get their way and will do anything including breaking the law to preserve their fragile ego and you are putting yourself in their sights. I hope you are right and I'm wrong, we will all be better off for it if your right. I think you are doing the right thing and there are not a lot of people willing to put their livelihood and possibly their freedom on the line to help us slowly restore our god given rights so I commend you and wish you luck. ATF never "got a bug up their ass" and "reversed their own definition". The law has stood on the books for decades, and the definition has ALWAYS precluded 18 year olds from buying PG-only shotguns. It's just that no one ever fucking read the law, and ATF never explained it properly. Anyone who's read the definitions carefully will immediately realize that items such as tripod-mounted beltfeds, and pistol-grip-only shotguns simply cannot be defined as "rifle" or "shotgun" by the wording the law, since they're not intended to be fired from the shoulder. 99.99% of of FFLs and gun owners never pay attention to the law, never read it, and wouldn't understand it if they did. ATF didn't make anything up, they just began a campaign to educate people about laws that were passed before half of the people here were even born. And good for them for doing so! Now I wonder what this means for rifled firearms without stocks, with an OAL of 26" and a barrel length of <16"...?  Thanks, I need a laugh. Atkins would be one to leap to mind who would have a serious fucking issue with that statment. |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
So all this happened because the ATF got a bug up their ass about 18 year olds buying pistol gripped shotguns so they just reversed their own definition of a pistol grip shotgun which stood for decades to a firearm and now you think because they wrote a few letters we have them? The ATF is a government agency, when has the government ever painted themselves into a corner got caught and then not thrown a fit with even ruining lives trying to save face? Those people have huge ego's but no self esteem, they can't stand to not get their way and will do anything including breaking the law to preserve their fragile ego and you are putting yourself in their sights. I hope you are right and I'm wrong, we will all be better off for it if your right. I think you are doing the right thing and there are not a lot of people willing to put their livelihood and possibly their freedom on the line to help us slowly restore our god given rights so I commend you and wish you luck. ATF never "got a bug up their ass" and "reversed their own definition". The law has stood on the books for decades, and the definition has ALWAYS precluded 18 year olds from buying PG-only shotguns. It's just that no one ever fucking read the law, and ATF never explained it properly. Anyone who's read the definitions carefully will immediately realize that items such as tripod-mounted beltfeds, and pistol-grip-only shotguns simply cannot be defined as "rifle" or "shotgun" by the wording the law, since they're not intended to be fired from the shoulder. 99.99% of of FFLs and gun owners never pay attention to the law, never read it, and wouldn't understand it if they did. ATF didn't make anything up, they just began a campaign to educate people about laws that were passed before half of the people here were even born. And good for them for doing so! Now I wonder what this means for rifled firearms without stocks, with an OAL of 26" and a barrel length of <16"...?
Thanks, I need a laugh. Atkins would be one to leap to mind who would have a serious fucking issue with that statment. Did you even read the letters that were posted in this thread???? Atkins did a good job of screwing himself |
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Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
Quoted:
So all this happened because the ATF got a bug up their ass about 18 year olds buying pistol gripped shotguns so they just reversed their own definition of a pistol grip shotgun which stood for decades to a firearm and now you think because they wrote a few letters we have them? The ATF is a government agency, when has the government ever painted themselves into a corner got caught and then not thrown a fit with even ruining lives trying to save face? Those people have huge ego's but no self esteem, they can't stand to not get their way and will do anything including breaking the law to preserve their fragile ego and you are putting yourself in their sights. I hope you are right and I'm wrong, we will all be better off for it if your right. I think you are doing the right thing and there are not a lot of people willing to put their livelihood and possibly their freedom on the line to help us slowly restore our god given rights so I commend you and wish you luck. ATF never "got a bug up their ass" and "reversed their own definition". The law has stood on the books for decades, and the definition has ALWAYS precluded 18 year olds from buying PG-only shotguns. It's just that no one ever fucking read the law, and ATF never explained it properly. Anyone who's read the definitions carefully will immediately realize that items such as tripod-mounted beltfeds, and pistol-grip-only shotguns simply cannot be defined as "rifle" or "shotgun" by the wording the law, since they're not intended to be fired from the shoulder. 99.99% of of FFLs and gun owners never pay attention to the law, never read it, and wouldn't understand it if they did. ATF didn't make anything up, they just began a campaign to educate people about laws that were passed before half of the people here were even born. And good for them for doing so! Now I wonder what this means for rifled firearms without stocks, with an OAL of 26" and a barrel length of <16"...?
Thanks, I need a laugh. Atkins would be one to leap to mind who would have a serious fucking issue with that statment. Did you even read the letters that were posted in this thread???? Atkins did a good job of screwing himself Sadly, reading a thread before posting requires too much effort for some. |
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Quoted:
Now I wonder what this means for rifled firearms without stocks, with an OAL of 26" and a barrel length of <16"...?
Those are rifled bore pistols and specifically exempted from the NFA How so? There is no length designation for pistol or revolver barrels that I have ever seen. In terms of RIFLED bore pistols you are correct Such term shall not include a pistol or a revolver having a rifled bore, or rifled bores, or weapons designed, made, or intended to be fired from the shoulder and not capable of firing fixed ammunition. |
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I see why it's not a SBS, I see why it's not an AOW, but please explain how this is NOT a DD. (2) any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes; and Good question |
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I see why it's not a SBS, I see why it's not an AOW, but please explain how this is NOT a DD. (2) any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes; and Good question Just a hunch this would qualify under sporting purposes, while shooting a shotgun shell out of a 37mm flare launcher doesn't, although it is damn cool. |
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Would that not refer to the shell and not the gun? It could very well mean just the shell. The way I read it, it doesn't say "a firearm capable of firing a shotgun shell", It just says "a shotgun OR shotgun shell". Similar to how a 40mm round is a DD in and of itself, they wanted to make sure that shotgun shells were excluded from being a DD, but not necessarily every firearm capable of shooting one. But I really don't know, it refers to barrels earlier in the paragraph and a shotgun shell certainly does not have a barrel. Or does it? Would the casing be considered a barrel and that's why they mention shells specifically? I doubt it. I still have high hopes for the OP
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Quoted:
Well here I am to throw a wrench in the works. Does this future letter have any bearing on a Marbles Game Getter? How would it effect a pistol/shotgun................................ the game getter is the weapon much of the AOW category was formed around. they'll never be reclassified for that reason (IMHO). |
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for those "in the know" - where is the definition of "concealable" coming from? i keep seeing people post that a 14.5" barreled pistol-gripped "firearm" isn't an AOW because it's over the 26" minimum and therefore not "concealable". where is that outlined? what is it that says under-26=concealable? the only thing i've ever seen to address the concealability of an arm (other than a pistol) are a few old cases where people had shipped illegal firearms (SBS), and several of those arms in question were likely still longer than 26" (it's been a long time since i've read the cases - i'd have to do some research). |
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Jrzy,
I love your enthusiasm. We've spoke and you seem like a real nice guy. I even faxed you my current letter in hopes you would sort of "chill out", that should speak louder than any words of the level of trust I gave you. You have however not dealt with FTB very much. "Day 4 awaiting FTB letter"? Dude, only 56+ days to go... They do not give letters back any sooner, there appears to be a new internal policy on that. The "letter" will be reviewed exhaustively in the meantime. There may have been a possibility you could have received it sooner if you had not gone so public. With world now watching the ATF/FTB can not afford to do so. IF...IF they did accelerate the process for you; now every inventor, small 07, and major manufacturer will cry out "why did he get his before i got mine...I was waiting for weeks" and it would then be a great liability for ATF/FTB to have done so. I would most likely be the first to point it out to ATF the disparity of treatment. This type of product is new and ATF has never dealt with it prior. I have been waiting since February for final and binding classification on a physical submission sample of the same type of product. What makes you think you will get some form of special treatment that no other 07/SOT receives? I strongly suspect you are not even aware that your expectation are so far out of the norm. You have a great product idea. You most likely will get the classification you seek. Just understand it most likely will take every bit of a couple of months to get a response. Telling folks your making them available in September when you have no response is like waiving a red cape in front of a bull, the response....well, you get the picture. Take it from from someone who has had the bull charge him snorting. |
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Maybe someone could answer a question for me while we're waiting. Why does the ATF even bother with all of this correspondence? Why is it that you can send in a letter and get a thoroughly researched answer in return? Why is it that they willingly accept firearms and devices, thoroughly test them, and then give you their determination of legality? I'm glad they do, it just seems like they do more than they have to.
I just don't see why every letter doesn't come back "Thank you for your inquiry, unfortunately, we cannot assist with legal advice. Sincerely the BATFE." |
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Maybe someone could answer a question for me while we're waiting. Why does the ATF even bother with all of this correspondence? Why is it that you can send in a letter and get a thoroughly researched answer in return? Why is it that they willingly accept firearms and devices, thoroughly test them, and then give you their determination of legality? I'm glad they do, it just seems like they do more than they have to. I just don't see why every letter doesn't come back "Thank you for your inquiry, unfortunately, we cannot assist with legal advice. Sincerely the BATFE." Firearms Technology The Firearms Technology Branch (FTB) provides expert technical support to ATF, other Federal agencies, State and local law enforcement, the firearms industry, Congress, and the general public. FTB is responsible for rendering opinions regarding the classification of suspected illegal firearms and newly designed firearms. FTB maintains an extensive firearms reference collection, as well as technical firearms reference files and library and firearms databases. This Branch is also responsible for the technical determination concerning types of firearms approved for importation into the United States. Further, FTB provides the U.S. Department of Justice, State prosecutors’ offices, district attorneys’ offices, and military courts with expert firearms testimony. This testimony includes the identification and origin of firearms and other matters relating to firearms and the firearms industry. Mission The mission of the Firearms Technology Branch is to serve as ATF’s technical authority relating to firearms and their classification under Federal laws, to respond to law enforcement agencies requests to test, evaluate, and provide expert testimony on firearms and ammunition, and to provide technical services to the firearms industry and other members of the public. FTB support to the firearms industry and general public includes the following areas: 1. Responses to technical inquiries. 2. Testing and classification of products submitted. 3. Curio & relic (C&R) determinations (see C&R page prior to submitting a C&R inquiry). 4. Import evaluations. |
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Quoted: I hold the current land speed record on getting a tech branch letter back, 2 hours and 20 minutes from my faxed written question to a faxed and then mailed reply on where I could cut a mossberg 500 receiver to de mil it so it was no longer a firearm.Jrzy, I love your enthusiasm. We've spoke and you seem like a real nice guy. I even faxed you my current letter in hopes you would sort of "chill out", that should speak louder than any words of the level of trust I gave you. You have however not dealt with FTB very much. "Day 4 awaiting FTB letter"? Dude, only 56+ days to go... They do not give letters back any sooner, there appears to be a new internal policy on that. The "letter" will be reviewed exhaustively in the meantime. There may have been a possibility you could have received it sooner if you had not gone so public. With world now watching the ATF/FTB can not afford to do so. IF...IF they did accelerate the process for you; now every inventor, small 07, and major manufacturer will cry out "why did he get his before i got mine...I was waiting for weeks" and it would then be a great liability for ATF/FTB to have done so. I would most likely be the first to point it out to ATF the disparity of treatment. This type of product is new and ATF has never dealt with it prior. I have been waiting since February for final and binding classification on a physical submission sample of the same type of product. What makes you think you will get some form of special treatment that no other 07/SOT receives? I strongly suspect you are not even aware that your expectation are so far out of the norm. You have a great product idea. You most likely will get the classification you seek. Just understand it most likely will take every bit of a couple of months to get a response. Telling folks your making them available in September when you have no response is like waiving a red cape in front of a bull, the response....well, you get the picture. Take it from from someone who has had the bull charge him snorting. I called, then faxed over my drawing and question and got my answer back in record time. We aren't releasing the non-AOW 14 1/4 model in sept. We are releasing the entire AOW and non AOW 18" & 20" line of the Orion 7's as planned in sept. There are 6 different models in that line.  |
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Quoted:
Jrzy, I love your enthusiasm. We've spoke and you seem like a real nice guy. I even faxed you my current letter in hopes you would sort of "chill out", that should speak louder than any words of the level of trust I gave you. You have however not dealt with FTB very much. "Day 4 awaiting FTB letter"? Dude, only 56+ days to go... They do not give letters back any sooner, there appears to be a new internal policy on that. The "letter" will be reviewed exhaustively in the meantime. There may have been a possibility you could have received it sooner if you had not gone so public. With world now watching the ATF/FTB can not afford to do so. IF...IF they did accelerate the process for you; now every inventor, small 07, and major manufacturer will cry out "why did he get his before i got mine...I was waiting for weeks" and it would then be a great liability for ATF/FTB to have done so. I would most likely be the first to point it out to ATF the disparity of treatment. This type of product is new and ATF has never dealt with it prior. I have been waiting since February for final and binding classification on a physical submission sample of the same type of product. What makes you think you will get some form of special treatment that no other 07/SOT receives? I strongly suspect you are not even aware that your expectation are so far out of the norm. You have a great product idea. You most likely will get the classification you seek. Just understand it most likely will take every bit of a couple of months to get a response. Telling folks your making them available in September when you have no response is like waiving a red cape in front of a bull, the response....well, you get the picture. Take it from from someone who has had the bull charge him snorting. this man knows what he speaks. |