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What about adding a rifled barrel instead of a smooth barrel on a virgin receiver? Would that not make it a rifled bore pistol and not subject to the 26" OAL? That would be a DD. I would assume it would be a pistol? Bore over 1/2". Unless a 410 right? |
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What about adding a rifled barrel instead of a smooth barrel on a virgin receiver? Would that not make it a rifled bore pistol and not subject to the 26" OAL? That would be a DD. I would assume it would be a pistol? Bore over 1/2". Unless a 410 right? Yes, that's under 1/2", which is why (I think) the Judge is classified as a handgun. |
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What about adding a rifled barrel instead of a smooth barrel on a virgin receiver? Would that not make it a rifled bore pistol and not subject to the 26" OAL? That would be a DD. I would assume it would be a pistol? Bore over 1/2". Unless a 410 right? Yes, that's under 1/2", which is why (I think) the Judge is classified as a handgun. Judge has a rifled bore |
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So, Cliff's Notes version of this thread so far?? OP jumped the gun. His idea isn't orginal and other FFL/SOT's submitted letters early this year and have heard nothing. ATF legal folks have read this thread and are also working on it, so don't expect any answers soon. |
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Quoted: Quoted: So, Cliff's Notes version of this thread so far?? OP jumped the gun. His idea isn't orginal and other FFL/SOT's submitted letters early this year and have heard nothing. ATF legal folks have read this thread and are also working on it, so don't expect any answers soon. I didn't jump the gun and there already three letters issued on this from different 07 FFL's. For your info which i'm sure you already know we have been working on this for well over a year and are getting ready for our release date in Sept. We could not care less about the non AOW 14 1/2 " model, it might be nice to add it to our line up but we don't need it. "ATF legal folks have read this thread" BS! There is so much paranoia in this business. You guys like to poke the bear and then say they are out to get us? BS the tech branch of the ATF are not out to get anyone. I ask questions all the time and 99 % of the time it has helped me out a great deal so I didn't spend money and screw myself. You guys want push and push and make this whole thing adversarial between 07's and the ATF? You guys wonder why you don't get answers back as quick as you like? Try not fucking with them? You don't like what they say in a tech letter? Take them to court and do it right instead of all this spy vs spy BS |
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"We could not care less about the non AOW 14 1/2 " model, it might be nice to add it to our line up but we don't need it."
Then why pray tell did you post this???? "I will post proof in a couple of days. Basically if a shotgun comes from the factory with a pistol grip or it's a virgin receiver never having had any stock other than a pistol grip it can have any barrel length and not be an AOW requiring form 1 or form 4. There is a a requirement that is must still have an overall length from the furthest point of the pistol grip to the end of the barrel of 26 inches. (26 1/4 to be safe) It must be smooth bore too. This is not my opinion, this is fact and I will prove this in a couple of days , give or take a week or two. Now if you have a 14 1/2 inch barrel and a standard pistol grip you will be under the mandated 26 inch rule. I also have the answer for this." If you could care less why in the world would you post this? Your answers do not sound logical or honest. You "hyped" your product, your AOW by going public with something you could care less about? That you know that three other FFL's were working on? Possibly needed to make ends meet with? Who at ATF gave you that information? Since you are calling folks paranoid, prove us wrong and name names??? You know, since they don't read or monitor this board as you claim, what do you have to loose? Since we both know that HIT & RUN GUNS in Tucker Georgia told you about this product and asked you to keep a lid on this, what the hell, you screwed my market, folks are already talking "do it yourself", next the Pump Action Short Non-Shotgun board will go out giving step by step tutorials on the freaking thing ala' 1919's.... JRZY, post the e-fax I sent you of the HISTORIC ARMS LLC July 20, 2010 FTB letter...You know the one were you told me let's trade letters...I sent you mine and THEN you told me you didn't have one yet....Ya that one! For those following this thread it is letter number two of three...Third letter will involve a physical sample is currently at FTB and not released to date. |
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I doubt it. I'll tell you what I will donate $100.00 to this site if I am wrong If you're wrong you do the same. Bet? "Legal" or "Legal in the eyes of the ATF forever"? Two very very different things. I'm entirely willing to believe it is the first. |
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"We could not care less about the non AOW 14 1/2 " model, it might be nice to add it to our line up but we don't need it." Then why pray tell did you post this???? "I will post proof in a couple of days. Basically if a shotgun comes from the factory with a pistol grip or it's a virgin receiver never having had any stock other than a pistol grip it can have any barrel length and not be an AOW requiring form 1 or form 4. There is a a requirement that is must still have an overall length from the furthest point of the pistol grip to the end of the barrel of 26 inches. (26 1/4 to be safe) It must be smooth bore too. This is not my opinion, this is fact and I will prove this in a couple of days , give or take a week or two. Now if you have a 14 1/2 inch barrel and a standard pistol grip you will be under the mandated 26 inch rule. I also have the answer for this." If you could care less why in the world would you post this? Your answers do not sound logical or honest. You "hyped" your product, your AOW by going public with something you could care less about? That you know that three other FFL's were working on? Possibly needed to make ends meet with? Who at ATF gave you that information? Since you are calling folks paranoid, prove us wrong and name names??? You know, since they don't read or monitor this board as you claim, what do you have to loose? Since we both know that HIT & RUN GUNS in Tucker Georgia told you about this product and asked you to keep a lid on this, what the hell, you screwed my market, folks are already talking "do it yourself", next the Pump Action Short Non-Shotgun board will go out giving step by step tutorials on the freaking thing ala' 1919's.... JRZY, post the e-fax I sent you of the HISTORIC ARMS LLC July 20, 2010 FTB letter...You know the one were you told me let's trade letters...I sent you mine and THEN you told me you didn't have one yet....Ya that one! For those following this thread it is letter number two of three...Third letter will involve a physical sample is currently at FTB and not released to date. 
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So... Where do I find one of these in a non-NFA form? http://www.ljplus.ru/img4/4/5/45_70/wawp870-aow-right-1.jpg where can i find that grip for a mossberg 500? |
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SPEEDFEED® PISTOL GRIP STOCK SET Designed by the leading supplier of specialized law enforcement shotguns, the SPEEDFEED Pistol Grip features a unique angle to the plane of the shotgun. Recoil is kept to a minimum, allowing shot by shot control. The set comes with forend and all necessary mounting hardware. Pistol Grip Stock Set
http://www.speedfeedinc.com/productsmain.html Quoted: Quoted: So... Where do I find one of these in a non-NFA form? http://www.ljplus.ru/img4/4/5/45_70/wawp870-aow-right-1.jpg where can i find that grip for a mossberg 500? |
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Quoted: Len tell me who gave you the idea in the first place?"We could not care less about the non AOW 14 1/2 " model, it might be nice to add it to our line up but we don't need it." Then why pray tell did you post this???? "I will post proof in a couple of days. Basically if a shotgun comes from the factory with a pistol grip or it's a virgin receiver never having had any stock other than a pistol grip it can have any barrel length and not be an AOW requiring form 1 or form 4. There is a a requirement that is must still have an overall length from the furthest point of the pistol grip to the end of the barrel of 26 inches. (26 1/4 to be safe) It must be smooth bore too. This is not my opinion, this is fact and I will prove this in a couple of days , give or take a week or two. Now if you have a 14 1/2 inch barrel and a standard pistol grip you will be under the mandated 26 inch rule. I also have the answer for this." If you could care less why in the world would you post this? Your answers do not sound logical or honest. You "hyped" your product, your AOW by going public with something you could care less about? That you know that three other FFL's were working on? Possibly needed to make ends meet with? Who at ATF gave you that information? Since you are calling folks paranoid, prove us wrong and name names??? You know, since they don't read or monitor this board as you claim, what do you have to loose? Since we both know that HIT & RUN GUNS in Tucker Georgia told you about this product and asked you to keep a lid on this, what the hell, you screwed my market, folks are already talking "do it yourself", next the Pump Action Short Non-Shotgun board will go out giving step by step tutorials on the freaking thing ala' 1919's.... JRZY, post the e-fax I sent you of the HISTORIC ARMS LLC July 20, 2010 FTB letter...You know the one were you told me let's trade letters...I sent you mine and THEN you told me you didn't have one yet....Ya that one! For those following this thread it is letter number two of three...Third letter will involve a physical sample is currently at FTB and not released to date. Didn't Phil tell you about what we were/are building well over a year ago? I told you upfront on trading letters I didn't have mine yet. I have been nothing but honest and now I'm getting bad vibes from you and the "WV crew" you're working with? The 14 1/2" non AOW model would be nice to add to our line up but it not as important as our entire line to us. As for your assumption that now because of this thread people will not buy the guns from you and instead just make their own ? What the hell do you think would happen anyway ? People aren't stupid Len There is nothing special about a plain 14 1/2" shotgun other than the barrel length has been AOW or SBS and if the average guy could have one they would want it because it has been taboo. So much for you and the WV crew wanting this to die and asking me to get it deleted. If I keep getting quazi hate mail from you or them I might just go out to the shop and make an instructional video tonight and post it on youtube. You really think people won't build their own Len? In your case they can, for our line they can't, thats why we spent over 600 hours on R&D to bring the gun community something bright and new like they have never seen in a tactical shotgun before. It's the reason we are getting a patent, it's the reason that peoples jaws will drop open when they see what we built. We aren't just chopping shotguns Len. We actually engineered and built something NEW! I didn't start this to piss in your cheerios Len but you're getting close to being insulting, don't poke the Bear and he won't bite you in the ass  |
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"We could not care less about the non AOW 14 1/2 " model, it might be nice to add it to our line up but we don't need it." Then why pray tell did you post this???? "I will post proof in a couple of days. Basically if a shotgun comes from the factory with a pistol grip or it's a virgin receiver never having had any stock other than a pistol grip it can have any barrel length and not be an AOW requiring form 1 or form 4. There is a a requirement that is must still have an overall length from the furthest point of the pistol grip to the end of the barrel of 26 inches. (26 1/4 to be safe) It must be smooth bore too. This is not my opinion, this is fact and I will prove this in a couple of days , give or take a week or two. Now if you have a 14 1/2 inch barrel and a standard pistol grip you will be under the mandated 26 inch rule. I also have the answer for this." If you could care less why in the world would you post this? Your answers do not sound logical or honest. You "hyped" your product, your AOW by going public with something you could care less about? That you know that three other FFL's were working on? Possibly needed to make ends meet with? Who at ATF gave you that information? Since you are calling folks paranoid, prove us wrong and name names??? You know, since they don't read or monitor this board as you claim, what do you have to loose? Since we both know that HIT & RUN GUNS in Tucker Georgia told you about this product and asked you to keep a lid on this, what the hell, you screwed my market, folks are already talking "do it yourself", next the Pump Action Short Non-Shotgun board will go out giving step by step tutorials on the freaking thing ala' 1919's.... JRZY, post the e-fax I sent you of the HISTORIC ARMS LLC July 20, 2010 FTB letter...You know the one were you told me let's trade letters...I sent you mine and THEN you told me you didn't have one yet....Ya that one! For those following this thread it is letter number two of three...Third letter will involve a physical sample is currently at FTB and not released to date. OH SNAP. Bitch slap!!! |
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I will post proof in a couple of days. Basically if a shotgun comes from the factory with a pistol grip or it's a virgin receiver never having had any stock other than a pistol grip it can have any barrel length and not be an AOW requiring form 1 or form 4. There is a a requirement that is must still have an overall length from the furthest point of the pistol grip to the end of the barrel of 26 inches. (26 1/4 to be safe) It must be smooth bore too. This is not my opinion, this is fact and I will prove this in a couple of days , give or take a week or two. Now if you have a 14 1/2 inch barrel and a standard pistol grip you will be under the mandated 26 inch rule. I also have the answer for this. .410 caliber and rifled bore pistol grip shotgun would be neither an SBS nor an AOW................ Did I win? |
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Those are all SBS's because of the stock Sure, but I was posting the picture for the lengths. Jumped into the thread late. 
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http://www.thompsonmachine.net/img/1919/1919letter.jpg
What I have always found interesting about this is I never ask about a191a4 "RIFLE" as the letter states in the first paragraph. I only refered to it in the exact same verbage " mounted firearm" that tech branch used in some of our other correspondence regarding the m60d, pkt and mg3d which like the 1919a4 were never intended to be shoulder fired. Doesnt have any relavence in this discussion , but just been in my mind for a while. I know by starting this thread you probably have caused a few folks to fire off letters to the tech branch telling them how wrong they are and you dont have a clarification letter yet, my guess is this is were Len has issue with your jumping the gun by starting this thread. I know the letter above prompted at least 3 people over on the 1919 group to send letters to tech explaining why they thought the letter was invalid. You must have one super examiner, I have at least two letters in to the tech branch which have gone over the 2 year mark with out being answered. Never actualy gotten an examiner to return my phone call. Most of my letters have been answered within 2 months or so other than the two mentioned above. I would guess since multiple people picked up on it (Pistol grip sg ) and wrote for clarification , in effect pressing ATF's hand, opinions were rendered. I would bet there are a number of folks rotting in jail who may well have convictions reviewed if pistol gripped "shotguns" can indeed have bbls less than 18". I do have to wonder if all the activity surronding the subject will trigger a non sporting use ruling for pistol grip smooth bore firearms with over 1/2" bore. Since any of the opinions rendered by an examiner are fully reviewed by their legal dept before being released I would guess its been discussed. I hope the best and look forward to seeing the outcome. All above is just my opinion/rambling etc |
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Quoted: http://www.thompsonmachine.net/img/1919/1919letter.jpg What I have always found interesting about this is I never ask about a191a4 "RIFLE" as the letter states in the first paragraph. I only refered to it in the exact same verbage " mounted firearm" that tech branch used in some of our other correspondence regarding the m60d, pkt and mg3d which like the 1919a4 were never intended to be shoulder fired. Doesnt have any relavence in this discussion , but just been in my mind for a while. I know by starting this thread you probably have caused a few folks to fire off letters to the tech branch telling them how wrong they are and you dont have a clarification letter yet, my guess is this is were Len has issue with your jumping the gun by starting this thread. I know the letter above prompted at least 3 people over on the 1919 group to send letters to tech explaining why they thought the letter was invalid. You must have one super examiner, I have at least two letters in to the tech branch which have gone over the 2 year mark with out being answered. Never actualy gotten an examiner to return my phone call. Most of my letters have been answered within 2 months or so other than the two mentioned above. I would guess since multiple people picked up on it (Pistol grip sg ) and wrote for clarification , in effect pressing ATF's hand, opinions were rendered. I would bet there are a number of folks rotting in jail who may well have convictions reviewed if pistol gripped "shotguns" can indeed have bbls less than 18". I do have to wonder if all the activity surronding the subject will trigger a non sporting use ruling for pistol grip smooth bore firearms with over 1/2" bore. Since any of the opinions rendered by an examiner are fully reviewed by their legal dept before being released I would guess its been discussed. I hope the best and look forward to seeing the outcome. All above is just my opinion/rambling etc The more likely result is that they - and 1919A4s, and anything else like that - will be declared AOWs... Just like any AR pistol with a VFG... 'It doesn't fit any of these definitions, so it's an AOW'.... |
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http://www.thompsonmachine.net/img/1919/1919letter.jpg What I have always found interesting about this is I never ask about a191a4 "RIFLE" as the letter states in the first paragraph. I only refered to it in the exact same verbage " mounted firearm" that tech branch used in some of our other correspondence regarding the m60d, pkt and mg3d which like the 1919a4 were never intended to be shoulder fired. Doesnt have any relavence in this discussion , but just been in my mind for a while. I know by starting this thread you probably have caused a few folks to fire off letters to the tech branch telling them how wrong they are and you dont have a clarification letter yet, my guess is this is were Len has issue with your jumping the gun by starting this thread. I know the letter above prompted at least 3 people over on the 1919 group to send letters to tech explaining why they thought the letter was invalid. You must have one super examiner, I have at least two letters in to the tech branch which have gone over the 2 year mark with out being answered. Never actualy gotten an examiner to return my phone call. Most of my letters have been answered within 2 months or so other than the two mentioned above. I would guess since multiple people picked up on it (Pistol grip sg ) and wrote for clarification , in effect pressing ATF's hand, opinions were rendered. I would bet there are a number of folks rotting in jail who may well have convictions reviewed if pistol gripped "shotguns" can indeed have bbls less than 18". I do have to wonder if all the activity surronding the subject will trigger a non sporting use ruling for pistol grip smooth bore firearms with over 1/2" bore. Since any of the opinions rendered by an examiner are fully reviewed by their legal dept before being released I would guess its been discussed. I hope the best and look forward to seeing the outcome. All above is just my opinion/rambling etc The more likely result is that they - and 1919A4s, and anything else like that - will be declared AOWs... Just like any AR pistol with a VFG... 'It doesn't fit any of these definitions, so it's an AOW'.... Yeah, but he OP is saying not an AOW????????? 
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Quoted: Quoted: JRZY you might want to quote the entire DD definition... You seem to be leaving out the part about "that the AG fins is generally suitable for sporting purposes" US Code title 26, Chapter 53 section 5864 f) Destructive device The term "destructive device” means (2) any type of weapon by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, the barrel or barrels of which have a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter, except a shotgun or shotgun shell which the Secretary finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes; and (3) any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in converting any device into a destructive device as defined in subparagraphs (1) and (2) and from which a destructive device may be readily assembled. The term "destructive device” shall not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section 4684(2), 4685, or 4686 of title 10 of the United States Code; or any other device which the Secretary finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, or is an antique or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting purposes. US code Title 18, chapter 44, section 921 (4)The term "destructive device” means— (B)any type of weapon (other than a shotgun or a shotgun shell which the Attorney General finds is generally recognized as particularly suitable for sporting purposes) by whatever name known which will, or which may be readily converted to, expel a projectile by the action of an explosive or other propellant, and which has any barrel with a bore of more than one-half inch in diameter; and (C)any combination of parts either designed or intended for use in converting any device into any destructive device described in subparagraph (A) or (B) and from which a destructive device may be readily assembled. The term "destructive device” shall not include any device which is neither designed nor redesigned for use as a weapon; any device, although originally designed for use as a weapon, which is redesigned for use as a signaling, pyrotechnic, line throwing, safety, or similar device; surplus ordnance sold, loaned, or given by the Secretary of the Army pursuant to the provisions of section 4684(2), 4685, or 4686 of title 10; or any other device which the Attorney General finds is not likely to be used as a weapon, is an antique, or is a rifle which the owner intends to use solely for sporting, recreational or cultural purposes. But... what JRZY is describing isnt a shotgun as its a smoothbore and has never had a stock. A "shotgun" must have a stock by definition, right? JRZY, I think you are onto something. I want mine in 10ga. Let me know how to pay you. It's an AOW, is what it is. Any shot-pistol is an AOW, except if it's really a .45LC with a long-ass chamber, that happens to take .410 shells (Judge)... handguns with smooth bore barrels less than 18" in length and intended to fire shotgun shells Are AOWs. The current 'wobbler' would be the Mossberg Cruiser, which is a 'shotgun' (18"/26") with a pistol-grip 'stock' - it avoids the 'NFA' tag by having an 18" barrel.... |
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Quoted: Quoted: http://www.thompsonmachine.net/img/1919/1919letter.jpg What I have always found interesting about this is I never ask about a191a4 "RIFLE" as the letter states in the first paragraph. I only refered to it in the exact same verbage " mounted firearm" that tech branch used in some of our other correspondence regarding the m60d, pkt and mg3d which like the 1919a4 were never intended to be shoulder fired. Doesnt have any relavence in this discussion , but just been in my mind for a while. I know by starting this thread you probably have caused a few folks to fire off letters to the tech branch telling them how wrong they are and you dont have a clarification letter yet, my guess is this is were Len has issue with your jumping the gun by starting this thread. I know the letter above prompted at least 3 people over on the 1919 group to send letters to tech explaining why they thought the letter was invalid. You must have one super examiner, I have at least two letters in to the tech branch which have gone over the 2 year mark with out being answered. Never actualy gotten an examiner to return my phone call. Most of my letters have been answered within 2 months or so other than the two mentioned above. I would guess since multiple people picked up on it (Pistol grip sg ) and wrote for clarification , in effect pressing ATF's hand, opinions were rendered. I would bet there are a number of folks rotting in jail who may well have convictions reviewed if pistol gripped "shotguns" can indeed have bbls less than 18". I do have to wonder if all the activity surronding the subject will trigger a non sporting use ruling for pistol grip smooth bore firearms with over 1/2" bore. Since any of the opinions rendered by an examiner are fully reviewed by their legal dept before being released I would guess its been discussed. I hope the best and look forward to seeing the outcome. All above is just my opinion/rambling etc The more likely result is that they - and 1919A4s, and anything else like that - will be declared AOWs... Just like any AR pistol with a VFG... 'It doesn't fit any of these definitions, so it's an AOW'.... Part of the AOW definition is "readily concealed on a person" How would they say that a 1919 is "readily concealed"? |
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http://www.thompsonmachine.net/img/1919/1919letter.jpg What I have always found interesting about this is I never ask about a191a4 "RIFLE" as the letter states in the first paragraph. I only refered to it in the exact same verbage " mounted firearm" that tech branch used in some of our other correspondence regarding the m60d, pkt and mg3d which like the 1919a4 were never intended to be shoulder fired. Doesnt have any relavence in this discussion , but just been in my mind for a while. I know by starting this thread you probably have caused a few folks to fire off letters to the tech branch telling them how wrong they are and you dont have a clarification letter yet, my guess is this is were Len has issue with your jumping the gun by starting this thread. I know the letter above prompted at least 3 people over on the 1919 group to send letters to tech explaining why they thought the letter was invalid. You must have one super examiner, I have at least two letters in to the tech branch which have gone over the 2 year mark with out being answered. Never actualy gotten an examiner to return my phone call. Most of my letters have been answered within 2 months or so other than the two mentioned above. I would guess since multiple people picked up on it (Pistol grip sg ) and wrote for clarification , in effect pressing ATF's hand, opinions were rendered. I would bet there are a number of folks rotting in jail who may well have convictions reviewed if pistol gripped "shotguns" can indeed have bbls less than 18". I do have to wonder if all the activity surronding the subject will trigger a non sporting use ruling for pistol grip smooth bore firearms with over 1/2" bore. Since any of the opinions rendered by an examiner are fully reviewed by their legal dept before being released I would guess its been discussed. I hope the best and look forward to seeing the outcome. All above is just my opinion/rambling etc The more likely result is that they - and 1919A4s, and anything else like that - will be declared AOWs... Just like any AR pistol with a VFG... 'It doesn't fit any of these definitions, so it's an AOW'.... Part of the AOW definition is "readily concealed on a person" How would they say that a 1919 is "readily concealed"? Richard Kiel could probably manage that 
that said, while Jrzy and i have had our differnces on occasion, i'm going to go with him on this one... And say he'll get his answer from FTB before day 10. |
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Guys, can someone please explain to an old guy how you can have a 14.5" smooth bored barrel on a gun, with a pistol grip, that is less than 26 inches long and not be an AOW? I ain't getting this one.  The idea is to make a short-barreled weapon that is over 26" but with a barrel less than 18". That would be neither a AOW or SBS. It might be declared a DD like the Street Sweeper though. |