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Posted: 2/7/2020 2:58:39 PM EST
Hey all. Total newb looking to get into some night vision. I have always been of the buy once, cry once crowd and hear that NV is no different so I’m thinking just save up and jump in to a set of RNVGs off the bat instead of a PVS14. My question is about the tubes. I don’t need the top of the line unfilmed L3 WP but also don’t want green which led me to the thin filmed WP. Was looking on gearcentralsupply.com and nvincorporated.com... Gear central has both Harris and L3 thin filmed priced @ $6945 and $7445 respectively. NV incorporated has only the L3 thin filmed WP priced at $6350. Both housing setups are the same.
So a couple questions here:
1) say both have similar specs which one would you go with; Harris or L3?

2) say I went with the L3 thin filmed, why is there over a thousand dollar price difference between dealers for the same setup?
Link Posted: 2/7/2020 3:07:11 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/7/2020 3:19:30 PM EST by KPog]
I would imo go Harris filmed over L3 filmed WP

Not sure about the price, but between the two I like the Harris(Elbit) over the Harris/L3 THIN FILMED just due to higher SNR that I have seen.
Link Posted: 2/7/2020 5:48:11 PM EST
Link Posted: 2/7/2020 8:11:11 PM EST
I kind of lurk in the shadows now but here is my 2 cents. Harris (ITT) or whoever they are now were once the kings. Sadly they have lost ground to L3 filmless and thin filmed tubes. Dealers get called all the time for special deals from suppliers on tubes that are low quality. Many dealers jump on these to make a quick buck.

Sadly, we are in a age where price is all that matters to most. Things are cheap for a reason. Lower specs or blemishes all contribute to this. Most don't understand this and look for lowest cost. Low cost is usually low quality. Not all the time but certainly most of the time.
Link Posted: 2/7/2020 11:46:42 PM EST
I’ll chime in.

For equal price, I’d almost always pick L3 tubes. Harris (ITT, Exelis, Elbit, whatever) are good tunes overall, but you can usually tell the difference between a Harris and L3 tube of the same variant just with a cursory glance.

L3 tubes are cleaner. There’s something about their manufacturing to where they just have way less defects in the image. Not talking blems here, just talking screen cosmetics. The edge clarity on L3 tubes is damn near always way better. The center divergence also seems way tighter on the L3 tubes, allowing for more precise collimation.

Lots of guys get wrapped up in the spec sheets. While they are important, there’s not much price difference between the two and I would rather have the super high quality control that L3 is famous for. In my opinion, Harris just doesn’t have that level of attention to detail. Back when ITT was its own thing, things were different. I’ve looked through hundreds of tubes and I can tell a Harris in a blind test every time by the amount of peppering, blurred edges, weird light anomalies, and little things like that. They really do have a signature look, and IMO, not in a good way.

I even have a Harris tube where the edges of the micro channels light up. It’s like reverse chicken wire. Their QC is just all over the place. L3, not so much.
Link Posted: 2/8/2020 12:24:30 AM EST
I would personally take Harris due to the significantly higher specs you’ll get. The L3 thin films are fine tubes but the specs just aren’t there. At some level, specs are just numbers and the L3 tubes look good which is mostly all that matters. But the Harris have the edge in performance and significantly higher specs which would translate to them keeping their value longer. The L3’s will probably be cleaned in terms of blems but not guaranteed.
Link Posted: 2/8/2020 8:18:00 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/8/2020 8:20:06 AM EST by Lowdown3]
Link Posted: 2/8/2020 8:26:21 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/8/2020 8:26:51 AM EST by Badger52]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Lowdown3:
https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/92237/HarrisBNVD-1226983.jpg

Harris/Elbit White Phosphor High Performance tubes in BNVD SG, 32 SN

https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/92237/l3UL-1226982.jpg

L3 filmless WP tubes in UL BNVD SG 35 SN

Same night, same camera nothing changed, pics about a minute or so apart- time necessary to change the iphone adapter. Note the L3 tubes in this example have higher SN numbers.
View Quote
Thanks for roping those in. Quite the easily discernible difference.
Link Posted: 2/8/2020 8:33:00 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Lowdown3:
https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/92237/HarrisBNVD-1226983.jpg

Harris/Elbit White Phosphor High Performance tubes in BNVD SG, 32 SN

https://www.AR15.Com/media/mediaFiles/92237/l3UL-1226982.jpg

L3 filmless WP tubes in UL BNVD SG 35 SN

Same night, same camera nothing changed, pics about a minute or so apart- time necessary to change the iphone adapter. Note the L3 tubes in this example have higher SN numbers.
View Quote
Damn Robert! Sell me that UL BNVD SG with the L3s at 35!
Link Posted: 2/8/2020 11:36:40 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By Gthirteen:

Damn Robert! Sell me that UL BNVD SG with the L3s at 35!
View Quote
Uh....is something wrong with your monitor? You want the L3’s after seeing that pic? The Harris kicker the fuck out of the L3 in that pic.
Link Posted: 2/10/2020 4:08:33 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By tlandoe07:
I’ll chime in.

For equal price, I’d almost always pick L3 tubes. Harris (ITT, Exelis, Elbit, whatever) are good tunes overall, but you can usually tell the difference between a Harris and L3 tube of the same variant just with a cursory glance.

L3 tubes are cleaner. There’s something about their manufacturing to where they just have way less defects in the image. Not talking blems here, just talking screen cosmetics. The edge clarity on L3 tubes is damn near always way better. The center divergence also seems way tighter on the L3 tubes, allowing for more precise collimation.

Lots of guys get wrapped up in the spec sheets. While they are important, there’s not much price difference between the two and I would rather have the super high quality control that L3 is famous for. In my opinion, Harris just doesn’t have that level of attention to detail. Back when ITT was its own thing, things were different. I’ve looked through hundreds of tubes and I can tell a Harris in a blind test every time by the amount of peppering, blurred edges, weird light anomalies, and little things like that. They really do have a signature look, and IMO, not in a good way.

I even have a Harris tube where the edges of the micro channels light up. It’s like reverse chicken wire. Their QC is just all over the place. L3, not so much.
View Quote
What do you think is the cause of peppering in the Harris tubes?
Link Posted: 2/10/2020 4:54:51 PM EST
There’s no free lunch - I agree the filmed L3 tubes have better screen aesthetics and usually less peppering or small (mainly) inconsequential blems.

Lately I have been seeing some ridiculous Harris/Elbit specs on their thin filmed WP tubes, contrast by the very low L3 filmed WP tube specs, I’d probably recommend Harris for most people. There is a place for the L3 filmed tubes however but they’d be way easier to sell if they cost less (but they don’t).
Link Posted: 2/10/2020 6:06:35 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By westernhaikus1:
There’s no free lunch - I agree the filmed L3 tubes have better screen aesthetics and usually less peppering or small (mainly) inconsequential blems.

Lately I have been seeing some ridiculous Harris/Elbit specs on their thin filmed WP tubes, contrast by the very low L3 filmed WP tube specs, I’d probably recommend Harris for most people. There is a place for the L3 filmed tubes however but they’d be way easier to sell if they cost less (but they don’t).
View Quote
What do you consider ridiculous? About a week ago I inquired someplace (will not be named and no one involved in this forum) about Elbit WP tubes and they couldn't match the specs I was looking for which weren't anywhere near ridiculous.
Link Posted: 2/10/2020 7:02:40 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By tlandoe07:
I’ll chime in.

For equal price, I’d almost always pick L3 tubes. Harris (ITT, Exelis, Elbit, whatever) are good tunes overall, but you can usually tell the difference between a Harris and L3 tube of the same variant just with a cursory glance.

L3 tubes are cleaner. There’s something about their manufacturing to where they just have way less defects in the image. Not talking blems here, just talking screen cosmetics. The edge clarity on L3 tubes is damn near always way better. The center divergence also seems way tighter on the L3 tubes, allowing for more precise collimation.

Lots of guys get wrapped up in the spec sheets. While they are important, there’s not much price difference between the two and I would rather have the super high quality control that L3 is famous for. In my opinion, Harris just doesn’t have that level of attention to detail. Back when ITT was its own thing, things were different. I’ve looked through hundreds of tubes and I can tell a Harris in a blind test every time by the amount of peppering, blurred edges, weird light anomalies, and little things like that. They really do have a signature look, and IMO, not in a good way.

I even have a Harris tube where the edges of the micro channels light up. It’s like reverse chicken wire. Their QC is just all over the place. L3, not so much.
View Quote
This! Harris tubes in my experience are always riddled with pepper specs if you look really closely. L3 filmed tubes seam to be slightly dimmer but they’re more soothing to my eyes for some reason. And the L3 autogating is way quieter.
Link Posted: 2/10/2020 10:02:19 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By will-1:

What do you consider ridiculous? About a week ago I inquired someplace (will not be named and no one involved in this forum) about Elbit WP tubes and they couldn't match the specs I was looking for which weren't anywhere near ridiculous.
View Quote
In the past month and a half I have seen a 2700 FOM and a 2500 FOM unit with EBI and Halos well under 1.0, with photocathode response of 2400.

For tubes that cost what these do that is pretty impressive. Granted they aren’t all this high, but I’m seeing them more and more.
Link Posted: 2/10/2020 10:09:10 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By westernhaikus1:

In the past month and a half I have seen a 2700 FOM and a 2500 FOM unit with EBI and Halos well under 1.0, with photocathode response of 2400.

For tubes that cost what these do that is pretty impressive. Granted they aren’t all this high, but I’m seeing them more and more.
View Quote
Nice numbers. How’s the spot spec?
Link Posted: 2/11/2020 9:24:23 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By will-1:

Nice numbers. How’s the spot spec?
View Quote
I have seen these numbers at the XLS grade level which has the lowest requirements for blems - however these specific examples the tubes were more or less perfect without any spots, but that is not typical with the XLS grade as they often have a small spot or two. I wouldn’t say they’re improving in this regard and L3 has the advantage here in my opinion. I don’t care much about small outer zone blems so I like the Harris, but that’s personal preference.
Link Posted: 2/11/2020 10:52:38 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By norbs79:

This! Harris tubes in my experience are always riddled with pepper specs if you look really closely. L3 filmed tubes seam to be slightly dimmer but they’re more soothing to my eyes for some reason. And the L3 autogating is way quieter.
View Quote
The newer production Everest tubes don’t have any autogating audible noises in my experience
Link Posted: 2/12/2020 8:07:56 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BelinTX:

The newer production Everest tubes don’t have any autogating audible noises in my experience
View Quote
Not trying to be a smartass, but what are Everest tubes? I'm trying to decide between the same tubes as the OP is inquiring about.
Link Posted: 2/12/2020 8:35:07 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By rcoers:

Not trying to be a smartass, but what are Everest tubes? I'm trying to decide between the same tubes as the OP is inquiring about.
View Quote
It’s their programmable power supply. The previous was Pinnacle. I believe all of them are now Everest but I’m not 100%
Link Posted: 2/12/2020 9:36:01 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By will-1:
It’s their programmable power supply. The previous was Pinnacle. I believe all of them are now Everest but I’m not 100%
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By will-1:
Originally Posted By rcoers:

Not trying to be a smartass, but what are Everest tubes? I'm trying to decide between the same tubes as the OP is inquiring about.
It’s their programmable power supply. The previous was Pinnacle. I believe all of them are now Everest but I’m not 100%
Everest is a generation of tubes they are offering that follows the previous pinnacle ones
Link Posted: 2/12/2020 9:40:56 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/12/2020 9:41:19 AM EST by SurtrsFire]
So the current pvs14s being sold as pinnacles are "older" generation harris? All the videos I've seen on youtube have shown harris pvs14s to be more audible than l3.
Link Posted: 2/12/2020 9:41:38 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BelinTX:

Everest is a generation of tubes they are offering that follows the previous pinnacle ones
View Quote
Right. Isn’t the key difference the power supply?
Link Posted: 2/12/2020 9:57:52 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By will-1:

Right. Isn’t the key difference the power supply?
View Quote
And the height. Don’t forget the height.
It doesn’t get any higher than that on earth
Link Posted: 2/12/2020 10:05:27 AM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BelinTX:

And the height. Don’t forget the height.
It doesn’t get any higher than that on earth
View Quote
Lol
Link Posted: 2/12/2020 10:32:00 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/12/2020 10:40:15 AM EST by Hard_ware]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BelinTX:
And the height. Don’t forget the height.
It doesn’t get any higher than that on earth
View Quote View All Quotes
View All Quotes
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By BelinTX:
Originally Posted By will-1:

Right. Isn’t the key difference the power supply?
And the height. Don’t forget the height.
It doesn’t get any higher than that on earth
SOLD

I have an older vii high spec pinnacle no noise from power supply but have been wanting to upgrade to the wp. But unless specs are much better (72Ip 27.8sn current tube )I can’t justify the $$.
Link Posted: 2/12/2020 10:50:11 AM EST
Link Posted: 2/12/2020 11:46:04 AM EST
Link Posted: 2/12/2020 2:19:08 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/12/2020 2:20:08 PM EST by norbs79]
Here’s a quick video I shot of two satellites that were really close together, you have to look kind of close to see them. The tube was a Harris with an Everest power supply, that whining sound if you turn the volume up is coming from the tube. It sounds a lot louder in the video than it does in actual real life but it definitely makes noise.

Link Posted: 2/12/2020 8:48:32 PM EST
First off I’ve been lurking for far too long, and I’m glad I can finally contribute to the conversation. I have an RNVG with Elbit white phosphor F9400XLSH tubes that I just bought, and they are incredible. The FOM is stupid high, and most of the specs are as good, if not better than the majority of filmless tubes I’ve seen, except EBI. Also these particular tubes are as quiet as my two L3 Omni 8 tubes. This is my experience with Elbit/Harris WP tubes, and I’m very happy with them.
Link Posted: 2/13/2020 12:30:50 PM EST
Link Posted: 2/13/2020 1:24:07 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/13/2020 3:01:08 PM EST by will-1]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TNVC_Sam:
What kind of specs we talking about?
View Quote
I can't answer for him but some(correction - meant SOMEONE) on IG told me his (SOMEONE'S, not shreddingaxes) XLSH WP equipped DTNVG were 81 res, 37 snr, 69k gain, one tube 2297 PS, and the other 2630. Didn't give EBI. On IG another reseller posted a 3,000 FOM XLSH WP. The pictures though to my eyes still looked how I'd expect thin filmed to appear compared to filmless, which is slightly hazy you know what I mean. It didn't look the same as what I'd expect from a 3000 or less FOM filmless tube. Could be the phone, I don't know.

ETA: fixed typo above
Link Posted: 2/13/2020 1:59:13 PM EST
Link Posted: 2/13/2020 2:50:18 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By shreddingaxes:
First off I’ve been lurking for far too long, and I’m glad I can finally contribute to the conversation. I have an RNVG with Elbit white phosphor F9400XLSH tubes that I just bought, and they are incredible. The FOM is stupid high, and most of the specs are as good, if not better than the majority of filmless tubes I’ve seen, except EBI. Also these particular tubes are as quiet as my two L3 Omni 8 tubes. This is my experience with Elbit/Harris WP tubes, and I’m very happy with them.
View Quote
@shreddingaxes

Where did you buy your RNVG at? I’m slowly getting back in the Nods groove
Link Posted: 2/13/2020 3:33:48 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/13/2020 5:54:33 PM EST by shreddingaxes]
The tubes Will is talking about are my tubes. Most of the green tubes I’ve had, have had that dirty/ hazy look to them. These don’t seem to be the same way, and are very clear.
Link Posted: 2/13/2020 4:00:14 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TNVC_Sam:

Its true the phone pics never do a Tube justice, but if you ever want to see what a 3000 FOM unfilmed tube looks like come to a Greenline class and you can borrow my DTNVG's for a night.
View Quote
My last L3 WP unfilmed unit from you guys was a 39.4 SNR for 2,836 FOM.
Should of never sold it

What kind of specs have you been seeing from the latest batches of WP L3 units?
@TNVC_Sam
Link Posted: 2/13/2020 4:15:28 PM EST
Link Posted: 2/13/2020 5:08:05 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/13/2020 5:08:32 PM EST by TNVC]
Link Posted: 2/13/2020 6:22:50 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By shreddingaxes:
The tubes Will is talking about are my tubes. Most of the green tubes I’ve had, have had that dirty/ hazy look to them. These don’t seem to be the same way, and are very clear.
View Quote
Those are very impressive specs indeed for your filmed Elbits. How do the prices typically compare against the L3 filmless stuff that is popular? A few hundred bucks less per tube? Or the same?
Link Posted: 2/13/2020 6:35:34 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/13/2020 6:45:44 PM EST by shreddingaxes]
I paid less than $2400 per tube. Both of the tubes have one small blemish in zone 2, but I was willing to live with that for the specs to money ratio. I’ll try to get some photos up in the next couple of days.
Link Posted: 2/13/2020 6:46:24 PM EST
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By shreddingaxes:
I paid less than $2400 per tube. Both of the tubes have one small blemish in zone 2, but I was willing to live with that for the specs to money ratio. I’ll try to get some photos up in the next couple of days.
View Quote
What vendor is out there selling those at that pricepoint?
Link Posted: 2/13/2020 7:02:55 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/13/2020 7:07:23 PM EST by shreddingaxes]
I bought mine from HEAT. It’s a long story but originally I just bought the tubes and was going to have them built with a RNVG housing and glass I already had. However my housing was one of the defective AA housings that wouldn’t run Harris/Elbit tubes. Fast forward a few weeks and I ended getting a new housing and new glass to have a 100% new unit. I highly recommend them, they treated me very well.
Link Posted: 2/13/2020 7:23:16 PM EST
Nice. As long as they don’t have Cyrillic on them
Link Posted: 2/13/2020 7:32:27 PM EST
Lol, you have to be careful out there. Btw, thanks JW for the work you did on the Illuminator video. I need some MAWL in my life
Link Posted: 2/14/2020 8:51:06 AM EST
Link Posted: 2/14/2020 9:25:53 AM EST
[Last Edit: 2/14/2020 9:26:30 AM EST by xLucidx]
Discussion ForumsJump to Quoted PostQuote History
Originally Posted By TechOps:
My last L3 WP unfilmed unit from you guys was a 39.4 SNR for 2,836 FOM.
Should of never sold it

What kind of specs have you been seeing from the latest batches of WP L3 units?
@TNVC_Sam
View Quote
I would literally shit my pants if I order my RNVG's from TNVC and had a pair of those tubes lol
Link Posted: 2/14/2020 9:38:23 AM EST
Link Posted: 2/15/2020 8:34:01 PM EST
https://imgur.com/gallery/J6MkE8z
Went out to snap a few pics. I’m definitely not as good at it as JW. Taken with IPhone 11
Link Posted: 2/15/2020 8:55:21 PM EST
Link Posted: 2/15/2020 9:07:01 PM EST
[Last Edit: 2/15/2020 9:09:24 PM EST by shreddingaxes]
I think it’s worth living with. They don’t bother me, and aren’t noticeable when actually using them. I’m definitely happy with them for the price. I was talking to a guy that had a similar tube that was completely clean, and he wanted a thousand more than I paid for one of mine.
Link Posted: 2/15/2020 9:14:32 PM EST
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